1230 réponses à ce sujet

[RyuGuitarFreak]

the_one_54321 wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I never claimed my way was the only right way. You're the one doing that. I'm saying that my way is possible, unless a feature like ME's dialogue wheel comes along and breaks it. My way is the way CRPGs have worked since 1980. There's been no reason to change the way I play because games have continued to accommodate this traditional RPG playstyle.
ME didn't.

Good for you, but you didn't convince anyone and I don't think you ever will that ME doesn't offer roleplay compared to other CRPGs. End of discussion.

Did anyone else find this response completely ludacris? You don't get to just dictate when a discussion is over. Especially considering the flat out inaccuracy of the statement you make just before you try to do so. I'm not exactly agreeing with Sylvius here (in fact I think his personal deffinition of Role Playing is exclusionary to the point of being inaccurate) but that doesn't change the fact that he has a point.
In his mind ME does not allow you to Role Play. And he's not the only person that feels that way. I think that this mind set just robs him and those others of the ability to enjoy some good games, but I recognize that what he has to say about the games relation to his play style is completely valid.

I agree that I was kind of arrogant, but my intention was try to stop his (IMO) nonsense. I don't think his point is valid anywhere, we discussed on ME forums about his "issues" before and like happened here, he stoped the discussion with me and he didn't prove my argumentaion wrong. I WAS gonna take his point to where I find it interesting that is about ME2 negotation mechanics, but I got tired of him and we're not on ME forums. Anyway, I apologise. But this subject is over for me, at least for now.

[Khavos]

Isabelle Mortello wrote...
No, no. I swear to god there better not be any paragon; renegade crap. Although I think it was already confirmed there won't be.

If they've confirmed there won't be any Paragon/Renegade crap, I believe them. 

I mean, they'll just name it Exemplar/Rebel or something.

[tbsking]

horvagab wrote...

I'm sorry if this'll sound kind of elitist, or derogatory, but this is my view of DA:O's story, and why the Warden shouldn't be the main character this time.

Because being a Warden is about the Blight and the Darkspawn. Wardens LITERALLY sacrifice their life the moment they make the decision to join the Wardens, even before the Joining. Legion of Dead? Pfff, Slayer-wannabes, fight until you die cute. Wardens fight and HAVE to win, not just die trying, but die winning. There is no glory in being a warden, it is about duty, sacrifice and survival. What kind of story would your Warden do? Another Blight? So soon, don't think so. Ferelden is being invaded by another country? Not your problem, you serve no country, but life itself. The whole world is your charge. Their life literally revolves around death, whether they are losing or winning, Wardens will die. In my opinion it would be a disservice to continue the Warden's tale. Thedas is more than just the Blight and the Darkspawn.

What made DA:O one of the best experiences were the Grey Wardens. They weren't knights in shining armor (except Alistair, he was extra-shiny on the inside ). They are soldiers, doing a job that must be done, one that will cost them their lives. The Joining Ritual was one of the best and most profound moments I ever witnessed in a video game. It showed how the Wardens operate, and showed me the scope of their mission. The Warden did his/her job, and I think we should leave him/her to her own devices, so she can savor her decades before going down under to get killed by Darkspawn before s/he goes mad from their blood him/her ingested.

(Although delving into the origin of the Blight might be a good storyline, but still, going again as the Warden is not my wish)

Sorry for wall of text

But during the course of DA:O the Warden doesn't just fight Darkspawn. He does all sorts of things that are related to the Darkspawn only in the sense that your potential allies asked you to do it. My Warden ended the game with a number of personal problems left up in the air. And every ending he got implied, quite heavily, that more was on the horizon for him. I would have liked a sequel with the Warden, but I'd much rather have some definitive end.

"He never found Morrigan and remained as Warden Commander until his Calling" is a better end than "He left to find Morrigan, but never returned. Nobody thinks his tale is complete..."

[birdmanjr]

i think its going to be terrible.. one thing that i hated in me2 was the fact that everything was made like a movie, so there was almost no value in a replay.. just 20 minutes of talking 4 minutes of battle in between.



DA:O i spent countless hrs, of different character types, and different strategies with the build of the other characters.. It also was a throw back to the old Bauldur's gate series which was a HUGE plus.

[CarlSpackler]

Khavos wrote...

Isabelle Mortello wrote...
No, no. I swear to god there better not be any paragon; renegade crap. Although I think it was already confirmed there won't be.

If they've confirmed there won't be any Paragon/Renegade crap, I believe them. 

I mean, they'll just name it Exemplar/Rebel or something.

I'm pretty sure it was confirmed there will be no morality meter in DA2, I'll have to see if I can find the link.  But I believe the intent was like DAO where your morality would be refelected in how companions reacted to your decisions.

[Jimmy Fury]

TMZuk wrote...
I complain because I think Bioware is leaving a story half finished.

This is another argument I don't comprehend at all.
Dragon Age is slated as a series. 2 games does not make a series. There has been nothing stated that says the Warden won't be important later.

If anything, the survival endings of Origins suggest that his/her story will continue later. All of the epilogue slides mention the warden returning to something, staying there for a while, then disappearing. But again, those are just the survival endings. Plenty of us sacrified our warden.
It would be pretty crappy to set up a whole series around choices and decisions and control of the character, give us the option to sacrifice ourself, then continue the rest of the entire series around that same character we could have killed in the first game. 
The only thing they could do is what they did in Awakenings where we have the option to retcon our own choice or go with a new warden. The first option sucks for those of us who like to hold continuity and the second means that the rest of the series would be about another character entirely.

The safest bet to uphold the spirit of your-decisions-matter is to just go with a new character in 2. The Warden's story, if he or she survived, can be finished later. Maybe something happens in 2 or 3 that brings the Wardens back into the story (as was so very well explained, the sole purpose of the Grey Wardens is to stop something that can only be truely killed by someone with the Taint.) and then give us the option to bring back a Warden who survived or to give us a new warden again like Awakenings did.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 14 juillet 2010 - 07:48 .

[tbsking]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

TMZuk wrote...
I complain because I think Bioware is leaving a story half finished.

This is another argument I don't comprehend at all.
Dragon Age is slated as a series. 2 games does not make a series. There has been nothing stated that says the Warden won't be important later.

If anything, the survival endings of Origins suggest that his/her story will continue later. All of the epilogue slides mention the warden returning to something, staying there for a while, then disappearing. But again, those are just the survival endings. Plenty of us sacrified our warden.
It would be pretty crappy to set up a whole series around choices and decisions and control of the character, give us the option to sacrifice ourself, then continue the rest of the entire series around that same character we could have killed in the first game. 
The only thing they could do is what they did in Awakenings where we have the option to retcon our own choice or go with a new warden. The first option sucks for those of us who like to hold continuity and the second means that the rest of the series would be about another character entirely.

The safest bet to uphold the spirit of your-decisions-matter is to just go with a new character in 2. The Warden's story, if he or she survived, can be finished later. Maybe something happens in 2 or 3 that brings the Wardens back into the story (as was so very well explained, the sole purpose of the Grey Wardens is to stop something that can only be truely killed by someone with the Taint.) and then give us the option to bring back a Warden who survived or to give us a new warden again like Awakenings did.

But the fact that the Warden doesn't get an ending is what's pissing people off about it. Every ending a Warden can get - aside from dying - implies that his adventures continue. My own Warden left to find Morrigan and whether he does or not is just left up in the air. No one sees him again, no one thinks his adventure is complete...

And then they introduce a brand new protagonist! Of course that's going to look like a cop-out. I want to know what happens to my Warden, if he wins or loses. Jeez, release a DLC or a pamphlet, anything, but don't just leave the end vague and ambiguous and then insist that it isn't the point.

[AlanC9]

Our characters have gone on adventures without us knowing about them before. The NWN1 OC epilogue says that more stuff happens to your character, but the NW 4 have no real insight as to what became of the Hero of Neverwinter when you meet them in HotU. We never did find out exactly what happened to the KotOR 1 PC, though that's mostly because there never was a KotOR 3. The FO1 VD had a whole different adventure after the end of FO; we know what he did but not how it happened. Even the BG protagonist has further adventures that we don't know about, but that's more of a "they rode off into the sunset" kind of thing.



It looks to me like the only plot thread that's really hanging is Morrigan, and that's not an issue for all Wardens.

[Jimmy Fury]

Dude. Chapter 2. That's all DA2 is in terms of the series. A second chapter. It's not the end yet. It's ok. It's not over, there's plenty more story for them to tell. There's all sorts of ways for them to bring the wardens back into the story.

For now though, their job is done. They beat the arch demon, stopped the blight, and rebuilt the order in Ferelden. That was their job.

Let the characters fade away into mystery for a chapter or two so they can grow and evolve and come back more awesome than ever.

[newcomplex]

In Exile wrote...

As for DA, again, when did we have upwards of 10 answers? Seriously, name a few moments in the game, because I can't recall. What I do recall are 2-3 choices, and sometimes 4-5 with redundant ones (i.e. the same choice worded differently).

LOL.  

Just because it isn't a choice doesn't mean how you answer it is redudant.   How you say it is pretty damn important to any narrative.

Mass Effect choices were polarized between "Oh Sir, Could you please give me the item kindly" "Give me the item" and "GIVE ME THE ITEM OR ILL BLOW UR HEAD OFF".

What you deemed "redundant" dialogue options were dialogue options that coveyed a bit mroe depth and subtlety instead of generic Lawful Good Neutral and Chaotic Neutral responses :/

lol well i guess Bioware knows their target audience well.    

Bryy_Miller wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Every
single level in ME2 was a series of rooms with boxes is in it and maybe
either a)Big Enemy or b)A LOT of enemies.

I don't
know what kind of games you play, but every single game I've ever played
has been developed using methods of "make room, put stuff in it".

wtf?   I didn't say no other game were comprised of "boxes with stuff in it".   I said only ME2 had such incompetent level designers that every single level was literally a succession of rooms with a bunch of randomly placed crates mindlessly throughout.   

It doesn't even make sense.   Its probably the single most terrible level design I've ever seen in a game.   Just think for a second "What purpose could these rooms serve"?   And the answer to that is absolutely nothing because their just empty rooms with randomly placed boxes.    I mean, has it ever occured to you what on earth those alien platforms actually did?   Their just hexagons with rectangles on them.   The only logical enviroment in the entire game was the warehouses.    

Modifié par newcomplex, 14 juillet 2010 - 10:07 .

[tbsking]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Dude. Chapter 2. That's all DA2 is in terms of the series. A second chapter. It's not the end yet. It's ok. It's not over, there's plenty more story for them to tell. There's all sorts of ways for them to bring the wardens back into the story.
For now though, their job is done. They beat the arch demon, stopped the blight, and rebuilt the order in Ferelden. That was their job.
Let the characters fade away into mystery for a chapter or two so they can grow and evolve and come back more awesome than ever.

Sure, and that would be a valid storytelling method. But as it is it feels like the events of the first game are going to count for little because the second game has a different protagonist, a different tale, set in a different place. Perhaps if it weren't just the second game in the series there would be less of a feeling of the first game being slighted. Not saying that's what is being done, but it feels like it.

[Mikey_205]

That Escapist article is depressing makes me think I should start looking more at Indie games or live in retro-land.

[theblazian]

Hey guys you want to play a game: Its called the doom crying game! How do you play you ask? Well its quite simple! You take 3 generic pieces of information and make a completely baseless assumption without logic and declare the company dead and/or sold out.



Some examples:



1) Bioware makes Dragon Age Origins. Bioware also makes Mass Effect 1 and 2. New Dragon Age game will have voice acting, dialogue wheel, and human only main characters. Mass Effect 2 had voice acting, dialogue wheelZOMG DA2 IS ME! BIOWARE IS DOOMED!



2) Valve makes Left 4 Dead and Half Life. Left 4 dead 2 has humans characters, guns, and undead humans with special abilities. Half Life 3 will have human characters, guns, and undead humans with special abilities. ZOMG HALF LIFE 3 IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS LEFT 4 DEAD! VALVE RUINED IT! RUINEDS ITS I SAYS! (note: if you had also stated that you use a crow bar in both and allows you to go back into previous levels as a chapter for a replay than you can also wish death upon valve).



3) Nintendo makes Zelda games and Mario Galaxy 2. Both have characters that don't really speak and arch enemies that have been reused. In Mario Galaxy as you progress you get new tricks. As Zelda progress you get no tricks. ZOMG LINK AND MARIO ARE THE SAME PERSON! WHY WOULD YOU CHANGE EVERYTHING NINTENDO?



Now everyone else try! Most of you are already quite good at the game so feel free to jump at it. Feel free to complain why Captain America and Thor will be the Same as Iron Man 1 and 2. Or why Inception is going to be exactly like The Dark Knight. Even more bonus points if you can properly explain why Infamous 2 will be exactly like the Sly Cooper series.

[Nerevar-as]

tbsking wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Dude. Chapter 2. That's all DA2 is in terms of the series. A second chapter. It's not the end yet. It's ok. It's not over, there's plenty more story for them to tell. There's all sorts of ways for them to bring the wardens back into the story.
For now though, their job is done. They beat the arch demon, stopped the blight, and rebuilt the order in Ferelden. That was their job.
Let the characters fade away into mystery for a chapter or two so they can grow and evolve and come back more awesome than ever.

Sure, and that would be a valid storytelling method. But as it is it feels like the events of the first game are going to count for little because the second game has a different protagonist, a different tale, set in a different place. Perhaps if it weren't just the second game in the series there would be less of a feeling of the first game being slighted. Not saying that's what is being done, but it feels like it.

And if they don´t come back? Mr. Gaider doesn´t decide everything that happens in the games. And if the bussiness keeps going like movies even less.
So far this feels more a spinoff than a sequel storywise: different main character and unrelated plot. And following some of the old plots with a new character...I can see Flemeth´s plot continuing here, as she probably has a world wide plan, but Morrigan? Too much between her and any Warden to do it with Hawke. I remeber NMN: HoU and wondering why I couldn´t be the NW hero.  

[Sylvius the Mad]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

I agree that I was kind of arrogant, but my intention was try to stop his (IMO) nonsense. I don't think his point is valid anywhere, we discussed on ME forums about his "issues" before and like happened here, he stoped the discussion with me and he didn't prove my argumentaion wrong. I WAS gonna take his point to where I find it interesting that is about ME2 negotation mechanics, but I got tired of him and we're not on ME forums. Anyway, I apologise. But this subject is over for me, at least for now.

This is why I didn't respond to you.  You don't seem willing to discuss it any further.

That doesn't change that roleplaying, as I do it, isn't possible using an ME-style wheel, as it prevents me from knowing what my character is going to do (either now or in the future).  In order to make decisions now I need to be confident that my character won't then contradict those decisions later - even if it's many hours of gameplay later.  I keep track of all the motives I invent to drive my character's behaviour, and without seeing the full dialogue options there's no way for me to avoid my character behaving in a way that renders those motives false.  And if they're false, then all of the intervening decisions I based on them are suddenly invalid, and I basically have to back up and start again at that initial decision in order to have a coherent roleplaying experience.

Now maybe that was because ME2 was a third-person narrative (as defined by Ray Muzyka).  Maybe I just can't play a third-person narrative in a way that is fun for me.  As long as DA2 isn't one of those, maybe the wheel will work just fine.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 14 juillet 2010 - 11:39 .

[Roland Aseph]

Khayness wrote...

To ensure a more immersive storytelling and better cinematic experience some gameplay limitations had to go.

I can live with the hope of this eventuality...as long as a new cartoony graphic isn't thrust upon us

The current art design COMBINED with an excellent story is what drew me to the game to begin with.

I'm sorry if I seem to be jumping to premature worry, but what little we've been shone so far looks rather bland "and" stylized toward a more animated/cartoon look. 

And to me that seems like going backwards and not forwards...especially for a sequel.

I hope my trepidation proves to be unfounded...

Regards 

[Jimmy Fury]

I think maybe the difference in perceiving DA2 as a sequel may depend on what we perceived to be the point of the story.
If someone considered The Warden's life to be the point of the story then I can certainly see why you would consider DA2 a slight against that.
I myself considered The Warden's mission to be the point of the story. So for me that story was completed. The Warden united the people, killed the arch demon, and ended the blight.
And I'm sure some people would argue that the ability to choose your origin "proves" the Warden's life is the point of the story. To that I have to disagree. I saw the origins as a statement about how anyone, no matter their background, could save the world.
So yeah. I understand why you feel the way you do.

theblazian wrote...
Even more bonus points if you can properly explain why Infamous 2 will be exactly like the Sly Cooper series.

Infamous 2 moves the story south. The south is full of Racoons and Sly Cooper is a Racoon. Cole climbs on stuff. Racoons climb on stuff. New Cole has stripes tattoos on his arm. Racoons have stripes on their tails. OMG INFAMOUS 2 IS SLY COOPER!
(I was going to throw in a whole "Infamous 2 is like a comic book, new orleans is the home of the thieves guild in marvel comics, sly cooper is a thief" angle but climbing on stuff is a much more absurd way to connect them )
Will that work or were you going specifically for gameplay elements? I can't even remember anything from Sly Cooper so I fail if that's the goal

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 15 juillet 2010 - 12:35 .

[Malanek]

I think that it was important to start off with a new character. The motivations and responsibilities each character has at the end of DA:O (or awakening) are quite different. It would be very difficult to write a compelling story having to factor all of that in. Some things are better left left to the imagination, I think what happens next to your warden is one of those things. I like the fact that you can import a save though. Seeing things play out differently depending on whether the anvil was destroyed or whether Sten went home (so he can come back at the head of the Qunari invasion force) will be a nice nod to your story.

I also think it is important to get back to a level 1 character. The game played much better in Origins than in awakening. High levels characters had too many abilities, and those abilities were not balanced very well.

[theblazian]

You don't need to know how the game actually is or was to play the doom game. They merely have to be made by the same company and have a few details in common! The vaguer the memory the better you are at the game!



New bonus point: Visceral made both the Dante's Inferno and Dead Space. Using the facts that A) You only play as humans, They both had a girlfriend they are trying to find, and C) They fight monsters; explain why Dead Space 2 will be exactly like Dante's Inferno.

[tbsking]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

I think maybe the difference in perceiving DA2 as a sequel may depend on what we perceived to be the point of the story.
If someone considered The Warden's life to be the point of the story then I can certainly see why you would consider DA2 a slight against that.
I myself considered The Warden's mission to be the point of the story. So for me that story was completed. The Warden united the people, killed the arch demon, and ended the blight.
And I'm sure some people would argue that the ability to choose your origin "proves" the Warden's life is the point of the story. To that I have to disagree. I saw the origins as a statement about how anyone, no matter their background, could save the world.
So yeah. I understand why you feel the way you do.

theblazian wrote...
Even more bonus points if you can properly explain why Infamous 2 will be exactly like the Sly Cooper series.

Infamous 2 moves the story south. The south is full of Racoons and Sly Cooper is a Racoon. Cole climbs on stuff. Racoons climb on stuff. New Cole has stripes tattoos on his arm. Racoons have stripes on their tails. OMG INFAMOUS 2 IS SLY COOPER!
(I was going to throw in a whole "Infamous 2 is like a comic book, new orleans is the home of the thieves guild in marvel comics, sly cooper is a thief" angle but climbing on stuff is a much more absurd way to connect them )
Will that work or were you going specifically for gameplay elements? I can't even remember anything from Sly Cooper so I fail if that's the goal

Perhaps if you weren't allowed to build up the Warden. Seeing as I decided a lot about my Warden and his life and his personality, this bond between myself and he was developed wherein he become more or less me only cool and stylish. So it does seem like a major blow to not reprise the role of the Warden. With that level of attachment, it would normally make sense to try to carry on the character.

[ashez2ashes]

I don't see why they couldn't find a reason to delevel you a bit. You could have been stuck behind a desk in Amaranthine for years and let yourself go for instance.

[LPPrince]

ashez2ashes wrote...

I don't see why they couldn't find a reason to delevel you a bit. You could have been stuck behind a desk in Amaranthine for years and let yourself go for instance.

Yeah, because that's much more fun to think about than playing a brand new character and going from zero to hero in 10 years.

[Morroian]

Mikey_205 wrote...

That Escapist article is depressing makes me think I should start looking more at Indie games or live in retro-land.

Whats the problem with that if they are the types of games you want to play?

[David Gaider]

tbsking wrote...
But the fact that the Warden doesn't get an ending is what's pissing people off about it. Every ending a Warden can get - aside from dying - implies that his adventures continue.

And if they do? The story of Origins was the battle against the Blight-- which you finished. You killed the Archdemon. That's as definitive an ending as you're likely to get. The hero walks off into the sunset and his adventures continue. Perhaps he heads off in search of Morrigan-- perhaps we even pick up on that plot in the future, who knows? But if the idea is that picking up on that one possible thread as the basis for DA2, continuing the "adventures of the Warden" (which would have to be an all-new adventure since, as I pointed out above, his battle is already done), is the entire point of Origins... well, I'm not so sure about that. I can see why you might be attached to your Warden character and even the romance plot your pursued, and perhaps the Warden's story might not be entirely done yet, but it certainly isn't the focus of DA2. There are new stories to be told.

Modifié par David Gaider, 15 juillet 2010 - 02:53 .

[Ghrelt]

It seems to me that people here want the story continuity of the Mass Effect trilogy, but ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE from that (aparently) terrible game series.


Edit:  I personally loved both Mass Effect games, however terrible. 

Modifié par Ellythe, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:01 .