1230 réponses à ce sujet

[Race Dragonheart]

I'm happy with the format for DA2, I think this adds scope to the series, I think our warden will be well thought of throughout this game, maybe if some characters return then they'll respond in a way that reflects our decisions in the DAO.



I feel that this game is going to have a level of depth that we've not experienced before, i believe Bioware should be applauded for this, it takes guts and vision to undertake a task like this that inevitably upsets people.



On the other hand I also think this was part of the bigger picture all along, its been great playing through the Blight in DAO but is the bigger picture going to unveil something for more sinister in the upcoming game(s) and DLC???

[AmstradHero]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

And if they do? The story of Origins was the battle against the Blight-- which you finished.

I agree entirely.  DAO isn't about the Warden.  DAO is abou the Blight.  I find that CRPGs that try to tell the PC's story make for much poorer roleplaying experiences (because if the player is free to roleplay then the writers can't know the PC's story).  RPGs that instead tell a story about the setting and other events taking pace there (in which the PC can play a part) are much better roleplaying platforms.'

I've said as much on the BioBoards for years.  A game that tells an authored story about the villain is a much better RPG than a game that tells an authored story about the PC.

Bravo to you, sir.  I love a good antagonist, as I've stated numerous times.

However, several games would like to disagree with you on this point: The Baldur's Gate series, KotOR 1 & 2, Planescape: Torment... even the excellent Mask of the Betrayer was torn between telling your story and that of the Spirit Eater curse...

I want to agree with you, but I fel I should state that it is possible to make an excellent game that revolves around the PC, provided that the player is able to influence the direction of the authored story.  In essence, we're probably saying the same thing if you deem that "an authored story" has a fixed plot.  If a character in an RPG has a fixed plot, it had better be the antagonist and not the player's character.

[Jock Boo]

here's a bone....

remember when DA was first announced it was named only Dragon Age.... later just a year before it was released it was renamed to Dragon Age: Origins and the concept of origins was introduced..... imagine Dragon Age: Choices.... and this is what I think BW is doing again ... origins with a different twist.... having read a bunch of stuff online and then what mr Gaider is telling everyone here i'm kinda hoping they will not dump the most ingenious concept of DA but they will alter it... then the race and social stature will not be important (thats the Origins plot theme) but the reasons and choices why Hawke escaped/deserted/ forced out of Lothering (ergo Choices)....



/crossing fingers hoping for DAC lol

[hxx7y]

David Gaider wrote...

tbsking wrote...
But the fact that the Warden doesn't get an ending is what's pissing people off about it. Every ending a Warden can get - aside from dying - implies that his adventures continue.

And if they do? The story of Origins was the battle against the Blight-- which you finished. You killed the Archdemon. That's as definitive an ending as you're likely to get. The hero walks off into the sunset and his adventures continue. Perhaps he heads off in search of Morrigan-- perhaps we even pick up on that plot in the future, who knows? But if the idea is that picking up on that one possible thread as the basis for DA2, continuing the "adventures of the Warden" (which would have to be an all-new adventure since, as I pointed out above, his battle is already done), is the entire point of Origins... well, I'm not so sure about that. I can see why you might be attached to your Warden character and even the romance plot your pursued, and perhaps the Warden's story might not be entirely done yet, but it certainly isn't the focus of DA2. There are new stories to be told.

i doubt it is the lack of the wardens ending thats aggitating most people ( and honestly i see the idea fo continueing that charictors story would be a waste of a game) i personally belive it 's just the fundimental shift from first person narrative to third person. although third person narrative creates a barrier between the player and total immersion if done correctly the charictor can be great in thier own right (i cant see removing commander shepard from mass effect and substiuting a first person PC as having a positive impact on the current mass effect story however in the future when the current trilogy is completed i would find the idea of a first person RPG in the mass effect universe rather intriguing)

on the name hawke
some people are getting kinda agro about the name (im not i think its badass and will go hand in hand witht he maliness meter)this hubub over the set name in my opinion is just silly if i recall you had a set last name in origins too.

on the dialouge wheel
im okay with the dialouge wheel (due to the voiced PC) it works alright in ME i just hape it deosnt create ME moments where the paraphrasing on the wheel doesnt fully convey the meaning of the response it will dictate however not enough information has been given to from a proper opinion and the above is an assumption only.

on the lack of race choice
speaking from my own experience i find that not playing as a human charictor in origins created a degree of seperation from the charictor it was a barrier to immersion to me and was never able to "get into" my non human charictors so in short im okay with this.

on the streamlining of combat
well i confess i am a little worried about this one however i have not yet seen any further information on this and have not yet heard the dreded words that make me immediatly lose interest in any game: casual, accessable, simple. Seeeing as i have not yeat heard those words in reguard to this topic I remain highly optimistic (i am currently playing DAO again i casted a group heal and counted howlong it took fromt he finished cast to when it applyed the extra health to my squad ... 3 seconds so some streamlining is required)

on Mass effect 2
i love mass effect it is definatly on my must have list of games right next to dead rising legend of zelda OOT and metal gear solid, mass effect 2 whilst still a sublime game i cant help but feel the series took a few steps in the wrong diarection by stripping out the inventory and nerfing the level up mechanisim oh and thermal clips (thermal clips actually made the game better but not being able to fire when out of clips just seemed illogical and i couldent help but think you gize wrote yourselfs into a corner on that one) however lets not discount the good strides mass effect 2 took locking the framerate, interupts, improved combat, new and interesting charictors mordin solus ... need i say more.

in short i agree with what mr Gaider stated in an other thread that it is way too soon to be passing judgement and based on biowares track record im inclined to trust them and on these changes if they turn out to be mistakes and that is a BIG if then there are mistakes and i am confidant bioware will correct them with DA3.

and thats has been my opinion on the matter (at least for now) i will not begrudge people for taking the TLDR route here:police:

Modifié par hxx7y, 15 juillet 2010 - 10:05 .

[Bugzehat]

Jock Boo wrote...

here's a bone....
remember when DA was first announced it was named only Dragon Age.... later just a year before it was released it was renamed to Dragon Age: Origins and the concept of origins was introduced..... imagine Dragon Age: Choices.... and this is what I think BW is doing again ... origins with a different twist.... having read a bunch of stuff online and then what mr Gaider is telling everyone here i'm kinda hoping they will not dump the most ingenious concept of DA but they will alter it... then the race and social stature will not be important (thats the Origins plot theme) but the reasons and choices why Hawke escaped/deserted/ forced out of Lothering (ergo Choices)....

/crossing fingers hoping for DAC lol

I've said this in other threads, but if they implement this kind of non-linear storytelling (I'm not sure why people insist that DA:O wasn't linear, seemed pretty linear to me), where your choices can significantly impact the direction the story takes, I'll be very happy. Crossing my fingers too!

[Jock Boo]

1. Hawke is the kid who lost his mother and The Warden saved him by turning him to the Chantry



2. Hawke is a soldier who was scared and eventually deserted from Lothering



3. Hawke is a refugee from Lothering refugee camp whos family was slayed by the blight when they destroyed Lothering



4. Hawke is a son of the barkeeper whose dad had a secret basement and hid his kid in there when the Blight came



5. Hawke is a priest from the Chantry who cowardly escaped before the blight leaving everyone behind



6. Hawke is the surviving family memeber of the Sten slayed family and is in search of revenge, but arriving in Lothering he finds out Sten escaped, then the blight comes he barely survives



7. Hawke is a rogue who feigned dead at the arrival of the Blight and is hunted by the Crows



lot of choices there....

[Jock Boo]

1. The Orphan

2. The Deserter

3. The Refugee

4. The Villager

5. The Priest

6. The Revenger (is that a word?lol)

7. The Crow

[naumutroi]

yes it is still too early to make a judgement due to lack of sufficient data but i for one hope it will not be too different from the original DAO since why re-invent the wheel. The original DAO was perfect and as enjoyable to play as Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect. Some were critical of the PS3 version graphics wise to the PC version but my ps3 DAO on my HD-TV looks great and the colours are brilliant and nut muddy as some critics of the PS3 version have said.

[Nerevar-as]

Can someoneplease tell me what the 1st vs 3rd person narrative between DA:O, 2 ME1&2 is? Just don´t get it.

[naumutroi]

In the released materiel, Bioware says that Hawke's story is of how the world changed forever. That would be interesting to see how they do that. If DA2 starts as DA1 ends it is really the Warden who changed the world with his choices. And as the DLC clearly showed, without the Warden the Darkspawn would have conquered Feralden amoung other things. The promo also says Hawke will be the single most important character in the world of Dragon Age. I was under the impression that The Warden was the single most immportant character.

[Nerevar-as]

naumutroi wrote...

In the released materiel, Bioware says that Hawke's story is of how the world changed forever. That would be interesting to see how they do that. If DA2 starts as DA1 ends it is really the Warden who changed the world with his choices. And as the DLC clearly showed, without the Warden the Darkspawn would have conquered Feralden amoung other things. The promo also says Hawke will be the single most important character in the world of Dragon Age. I was under the impression that The Warden was the single most immportant character.

It´s fear of that last thing what probably makes him already unpopular to some people. But don´t listen too much to
promos, BW tends to exagerate. If ME2 characters had been as in the promos I would have suicided most in the final missions.
For the moment Hawke has to top saving a country (or more, it´s stated this was the shortest and less harmful Blight I think) with a handful of companions, against the ruling forces, and being a rookie. Big shoes to fill. Which is my main concern with the scope of the story. Blights seem to be the worst that can happen, so we are likely going down.
Think ME4: you saved the galaxy from forces that have been wiping whoever they wanted for at least 37 miilions years. What can they come up with a more epic feel?

[Jallard]

Mr. Gaider and his team, in my opinion, don't give two ****s about continuity in a story. Look what they did to Leliana's personal story, in the DLC of Leliana's Song? It was totally different in every aspect. They are going to do whatever it is they damn well please and we the consumer will either play their game or not. Mr. Gaider had pretty much stated that very fact. So, I guess we can ****** and moan, cry and wail all we want, they could give a ****!?!

[Nerevar-as]

Jallard wrote...

Mr. Gaider and his team, in my opinion, don't give two ****s about continuity in a story. Look what they did to Leliana's personal story, in the DLC of Leliana's Song? It was totally different in every aspect. They are going to do whatever it is they damn well please and we the consumer will either play their game or not. Mr. Gaider had pretty much stated that very fact. So, I guess we can ****** and moan, cry and wail all we want, they could give a ****!?!

It changed the setting and what was needed for the story to still make sense with that. And what we knew Leliana´s tale in DA was what she told us (and the DLC too...), so it´s far from the worst retcon I´ve seen:. Because noone in DA lied to us or told truths from a POV.
Would have liked to see it in Orlais though. Too much scenery to design and too big a DLC I guess.

[Lord_Saulot]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Jallard wrote...

Mr. Gaider and his team, in my opinion, don't give two ****s about continuity in a story. Look what they did to Leliana's personal story, in the DLC of Leliana's Song? It was totally different in every aspect. They are going to do whatever it is they damn well please and we the consumer will either play their game or not. Mr. Gaider had pretty much stated that very fact. So, I guess we can ****** and moan, cry and wail all we want, they could give a ****!?!

It changed the setting and what was needed for the story to still make sense with that. And what we knew Leliana´s tale in DA was what she told us (and the DLC too...), so it´s far from the worst retcon I´ve seen:. Because noone in DA lied to us or told truths from a POV.
Would have liked to see it in Orlais though. Too much scenery to design and too big a DLC I guess.

Also, I think DAO is probably meant to be Ferelden-focused.  I think the options were either Ferelden or nothing for a DAO DLC.

But yeah I agree with you about that DLC - Leliana's a bard, telling stories is part of what she does, and she can tell a story differently. 

[Jallard]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Jallard wrote...

Mr. Gaider and his team, in my opinion, don't give two ****s about continuity in a story. Look what they did to Leliana's personal story, in the DLC of Leliana's Song? It was totally different in every aspect. They are going to do whatever it is they damn well please and we the consumer will either play their game or not. Mr. Gaider had pretty much stated that very fact. So, I guess we can ****** and moan, cry and wail all we want, they could give a ****!?!

It changed the setting and what was needed for the story to still make sense with that. And what we knew Leliana´s tale in DA was what she told us (and the DLC too...), so it´s far from the worst retcon I´ve seen:. Because noone in DA lied to us or told truths from a POV.
Would have liked to see it in Orlais though. Too much scenery to design and too big a DLC I guess.

Also, I think DAO is probably meant to be Ferelden-focused.  I think the options were either Ferelden or nothing for a DAO DLC.

But yeah I agree with you about that DLC - Leliana's a bard, telling stories is part of what she does, and she can tell a story differently. 

It was my expectation of Leliana's story that I wanted to see in Leliana's Song period.  I disagee, the story still would have still made sense, again in my opinion. Besides, Gaider and his crew can take creative license since it is their franchise. I can tell you this for a fact: I won't be purchasing any more DLC's for DA:O. I am tired of being disappointed and wasting my hard earned money. That to me is my bottom line.

[naumutroi]

Origins....origins means the beginning. I am under the impression that is the same meaning as Batman: Begins, X-Men Origins: Wolverine. It tells you the "origins" of the Hero. And so we created our Hero and developed his "Origins" as a Mage, Rogue or Warrior and as a Human, Elf or Dwarf. One would think that the sequel will be the continuation of our Hero's "origins". Thats like in Mass Effect 2 they tell us sorry Shepard is dead and we just included him to show you his death at the beginning of game but didnt tell you so would buy the game and there is no way to bring him back to life again. If they are gonna allow us to port our character from DA1 to DA2 then they better make the Hero to be the same guy. .

[odiedragon]

David Gaider wrote...

tbsking wrote...
But the fact that the Warden doesn't get an ending is what's pissing people off about it. Every ending a Warden can get - aside from dying - implies that his adventures continue.

And if they do? The story of Origins was the battle against the Blight-- which you finished. You killed the Archdemon. That's as definitive an ending as you're likely to get. The hero walks off into the sunset and his adventures continue. Perhaps he heads off in search of Morrigan-- perhaps we even pick up on that plot in the future, who knows? But if the idea is that picking up on that one possible thread as the basis for DA2, continuing the "adventures of the Warden" (which would have to be an all-new adventure since, as I pointed out above, his battle is already done), is the entire point of Origins... well, I'm not so sure about that. I can see why you might be attached to your Warden character and even the romance plot your pursued, and perhaps the Warden's story might not be entirely done yet, but it certainly isn't the focus of DA2. There are new stories to be told.

And that would be fine, if Origins hadn't been set up as leading up to something more.  If we hadn't been playing thinking that our choices would have long-reaching concequences.

Hell, the TITLE of the game is Dragon Age: ORIGINS.  Not Dragon Age: The Fifth Blight.  Something was supposed to come out of these events.  The fact that none of these plot points are being followed up on is what's angering people, I think.  You see a lot of Hawke-rage, because he's the obvious scapegoat.  But the more and more I think about it, the less and less I realize that it's Hawke that pisses me off.  It's the "Well, you only get the first chapter of the story now, and you'd better be satisfied with it" attitude we're getting.

[naumutroi]

odiedragon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

tbsking wrote...
But the fact that the Warden doesn't get an ending is what's pissing people off about it. Every ending a Warden can get - aside from dying - implies that his adventures continue.

And if they do? The story of Origins was the battle against the Blight-- which you finished. You killed the Archdemon. That's as definitive an ending as you're likely to get. The hero walks off into the sunset and his adventures continue. Perhaps he heads off in search of Morrigan-- perhaps we even pick up on that plot in the future, who knows? But if the idea is that picking up on that one possible thread as the basis for DA2, continuing the "adventures of the Warden" (which would have to be an all-new adventure since, as I pointed out above, his battle is already done), is the entire point of Origins... well, I'm not so sure about that. I can see why you might be attached to your Warden character and even the romance plot your pursued, and perhaps the Warden's story might not be entirely done yet, but it certainly isn't the focus of DA2. There are new stories to be told.

And that would be fine, if Origins hadn't been set up as leading up to something more.  If we hadn't been playing thinking that our choices would have long-reaching concequences.

Hell, the TITLE of the game is Dragon Age: ORIGINS.  Not Dragon Age: The Fifth Blight.  Something was supposed to come out of these events.  The fact that none of these plot points are being followed up on is what's angering people, I think.  You see a lot of Hawke-rage, because he's the obvious scapegoat.  But the more and more I think about it, the less and less I realize that it's Hawke that pisses me off.  It's the "Well, you only get the first chapter of the story now, and you'd better be satisfied with it" attitude we're getting.

i completely agree. Even if the Warden is not the "star" of  DA2 it would be nice if they pick up on all the various story threads and tell us what happened to the characters of  DA1 and the other possible Wardens. It would be nice to return to Feralden to see what the cities we visited looked like after the Blight like in Fable 2. when they showed how the world changed because of the Hero.

[Jallard]

odiedragon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

tbsking wrote...
But the fact that the Warden doesn't get an ending is what's pissing people off about it. Every ending a Warden can get - aside from dying - implies that his adventures continue.

And if they do? The story of Origins was the battle against the Blight-- which you finished. You killed the Archdemon. That's as definitive an ending as you're likely to get. The hero walks off into the sunset and his adventures continue. Perhaps he heads off in search of Morrigan-- perhaps we even pick up on that plot in the future, who knows? But if the idea is that picking up on that one possible thread as the basis for DA2, continuing the "adventures of the Warden" (which would have to be an all-new adventure since, as I pointed out above, his battle is already done), is the entire point of Origins... well, I'm not so sure about that. I can see why you might be attached to your Warden character and even the romance plot your pursued, and perhaps the Warden's story might not be entirely done yet, but it certainly isn't the focus of DA2. There are new stories to be told.

And that would be fine, if Origins hadn't been set up as leading up to something more.  If we hadn't been playing thinking that our choices would have long-reaching concequences.

Hell, the TITLE of the game is Dragon Age: ORIGINS.  Not Dragon Age: The Fifth Blight.  Something was supposed to come out of these events.  The fact that none of these plot points are being followed up on is what's angering people, I think.  You see a lot of Hawke-rage, because he's the obvious scapegoat.  But the more and more I think about it, the less and less I realize that it's Hawke that pisses me off.  It's the "Well, you only get the first chapter of the story now, and you'd better be satisfied with it" attitude we're getting.

Well said and true enough!

[Nerevar-as]

Many of us need closure (and a good one, not a Neverwinter Hero one) to the Warden and the plots s/he was directly involved in, and not all endings gave that. You gave us a very interesting main character we really cared about, Mr Gaider and Co. Think of a series you really liked and what would have happened had the main story and characters shifted between seasons, movies, books or whatever.

[Morroian]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Many of us need closure (and a good one, not a Neverwinter Hero one) to the Warden and the plots s/he was directly involved in, and not all endings gave that. 

Like which ones? And why do you expect to be able to keep increasing the warden's power level. Personally I thought it was obvious after DAO that we would probably be getting a new character in DA 2 and Awakenings made it even more obvious.

Modifié par Morroian, 15 juillet 2010 - 01:51 .

[Jallard]

Morroian wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Many of us need closure (and a good one, not a Neverwinter Hero one) to the Warden and the plots s/he was directly involved in, and not all endings gave that. 

Like which ones? And why do you expect to be able to keep increasing the warden's power level. Personally I thought it was obvious after DAO that we would probably be getting a new character in DA 2 and Awakenings made it even more obvious.

Maybe!?! It really isn't about carrying on with my created characters from DA:O as much as it is playing a preset character in a third-person perspective. I want to be the character not some animated Shepard. I think we are all concerned that DA2 will be more like ME and ME2, but with swords. And, quite honestly, I don't see much replayability with DA2. So, for me it will be a waste of time, effort and hard earned cash. 

Modifié par Jallard, 15 juillet 2010 - 02:16 .

[In Exile]

Jallard wrote...

Mr. Gaider and his team, in my opinion, don't give two ****s about continuity in a story. Look what they did to Leliana's personal story, in the DLC of Leliana's Song? It was totally different in every aspect. They are going to do whatever it is they damn well please and we the consumer will either play their game or not. Mr. Gaider had pretty much stated that very fact. So, I guess we can ****** and moan, cry and wail all we want, they could give a ****!?!

Aren't you someone who believes that VO steals the ability of your character to be a part of the world? In other words, are you not the type that believes that the only way to role-play is with a silent VO?

If so, isn't it the case that integral to your view, characters can be misleading or otherwise explicitly say things in-game that are not true for the sake of allowing your character to fit to the mental schematic you have created?

If so, what is so hard about resolving the dissonance for Leliana simply by saying that she was traumatized by her experience and therefore an unreliable narrator?

[In Exile]

odiedragon wrote...
And that would be fine, if Origins hadn't been set up as leading up to something more.  If we hadn't been playing thinking that our choices would have long-reaching concequences.

But why do you have the impression that any of this is true? None of the choices that we make in DA:O, save some of the end-game choices, would seem to have any major effect. Apparently never fully implemented, the choice to lose Eamon would have meant he was replaced by Teagan; this would alter the world, but only insofar as there would be a new Arl of Redcliffe. Whether or not the city stands means only it has to be repopulated. Rite of Annulment or no, there would still have no be another Circle in Ferelden.

The only choices that would seem to be far-reaching are 1) if the dwarves have golems, because that could well make them imperialistic. Otherwise every other character who dies can be replaced by another character.

Most of all, you could die at the end of the game. For Bioware to let you continue, as they did in Awakening, they effectively have to say, no wait, nuh-uh, that one ending wasn't cannon. It's one decision you could never see or hear about in-game.

Hell, the TITLE of the game is Dragon Age: ORIGINS.  Not Dragon Age: The Fifth Blight.  Something was supposed to come out of these events.  The fact that none of these plot points are being followed up on is what's angering people, I think.  You see a lot of Hawke-rage, because he's the obvious scapegoat.  But the more and more I think about it, the less and less I realize that it's Hawke that pisses me off.  It's the "Well, you only get the first chapter of the story now, and you'd better be satisfied with it" attitude we're getting.

Actually, the title of the game was Dragon Age. A few months before release (the original PC release, not the delay to have the simultaenous release with the consoles) they changed the title to Origins. This was a very late production decision.

So I would wager very strongly against there having to have been anything special coming out of these events, because Origins as a title came about while the game was in QA for the PC.

So you can have hard rage about not getting more Warden. But this story was never about the Warden. People just make it that way, but I can tell you, this was never something we heard, something we talked about, or something we thought while we were following the development of Dragon Age originally.

[Jallard]

In Exile wrote...

Jallard wrote...

Mr. Gaider and his team, in my opinion, don't give two ****s about continuity in a story. Look what they did to Leliana's personal story, in the DLC of Leliana's Song? It was totally different in every aspect. They are going to do whatever it is they damn well please and we the consumer will either play their game or not. Mr. Gaider had pretty much stated that very fact. So, I guess we can ****** and moan, cry and wail all we want, they could give a ****!?!

Aren't you someone who believes that VO steals the ability of your character to be a part of the world? In other words, are you not the type that believes that the only way to role-play is with a silent VO?

If so, isn't it the case that integral to your view, characters can be misleading or otherwise explicitly say things in-game that are not true for the sake of allowing your character to fit to the mental schematic you have created?

If so, what is so hard about resolving the dissonance for Leliana simply by saying that she was traumatized by her experience and therefore an unreliable narrator?

VO has nothing to do with it, as far as I am concerned. As for Leliana my expectation was seeing and experiencing the original story that she told. How Leliana's Song played had nothing to do with my expectation either. It was ok in that aspect. It just wasn't her story.  Plus, the armor was cheesy at best. I would have enjoyed seeing the model's version.

But, enough of that! We will just have to see next year when the game comes out.  I hope they will at least have a demo version. Because I would hate to pay $50 to $70 for game I instantly hated: And, I think that is only fair.

Modifié par Jallard, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:07 .