1230 réponses à ce sujet

[Senliati]

Still mulling over the annoucements... I hope that BioWare is covering these forums. I feel tremendous loyalty to BioWare because of the amazing quality of their games. I really hope that they hold to their promise that the Dragon Age franchise would be true to the legacy of Baldur's Gate. If Dragon Age 2 turns into another Mass Effect (which I love but we already HAVE it), what game will carry the banner of best epic RPG?

[In Exile]

Jallard wrote...
VO has nothing to do with it, as far as I am concerned. As for Leliana my expectation was seeing and experiencing the original story that she told. How Leliana's Song played had nothing to do with my expectation either. It was ok in that aspect. It just wasn't her story.  Plus, the armor was cheesy at best. I would have enjoyed seeing the model's version.

I haven't played the DLC. I don't buy DLC because I don't see the value in it. I'm happy with the full version of the game. So I really do want to understand - how was it not her story? You might have something important to say that could affect how I see DA. Which is why I want to hear it.

But, enough of that! We will just have to see next year when the game comes out.  I hope they will at least have a demo version. Because I would hate to pay $50 to $70 for game I instantly hated: And, I think that is only fair.

I would bet very strongly against it. In fact, I can't recall the last time Bioware released a demo.

[Jallard]

In Exile wrote...

Jallard wrote...
VO has nothing to do with it, as far as I am concerned. As for Leliana my expectation was seeing and experiencing the original story that she told. How Leliana's Song played had nothing to do with my expectation either. It was ok in that aspect. It just wasn't her story.  Plus, the armor was cheesy at best. I would have enjoyed seeing the model's version.

I haven't played the DLC. I don't buy DLC because I don't see the value in it. I'm happy with the full version of the game. So I really do want to understand - how was it not her story? You might have something important to say that could affect how I see DA. Which is why I want to hear it.

But, enough of that! We will just have to see next year when the game comes out.  I hope they will at least have a demo version. Because I would hate to pay $50 to $70 for game I instantly hated: And, I think that is only fair.

I would bet very strongly against it. In fact, I can't recall the last time Bioware released a demo.

Well, in the first place as she originally tells her story in Origins her reasons for coming to Ferelden and Lothering was as a result of something that occurred in Orlais. In the DLC it all takes place in Denerim and she has two companions. In her original story she was alone during that particular assassination job. Now you can pick it abart and make assumptions that she is a BARD and tells stories, so therefore she could have been lying, when she first tells the story. I wasn't looking for ifs or maybes or that she was going to tell a different tale. I was looking for her original story. If I had known that the DLC was going to be different I would not have purchased it.

Incidentally, I didn't purchase the DarkSpawn Chronicles either. I had no desire to play a DarkSpawn, just like I have had no desire to play a Dwarf.

I am sure that they won't produce a demo, because that may cause people not to purchase the full game; And, we wouldn't want that would we? I am semi retired and I have very little money to waste on a game that I may not like. If they are going to win me over they have their work cutout for them.

[Jimmy Fury]

odiedragon wrote...
And that would be fine, if Origins hadn't been set up as leading up to something more.  If we hadn't been playing thinking that our choices would have long-reaching concequences.

Hell, the TITLE of the game is Dragon Age: ORIGINS.  Not Dragon Age: The Fifth Blight.  Something was supposed to come out of these events.  The fact that none of these plot points are being followed up on is what's angering people, I think.  You see a lot of Hawke-rage, because he's the obvious scapegoat.  But the more and more I think about it, the less and less I realize that it's Hawke that pisses me off.  It's the "Well, you only get the first chapter of the story now, and you'd better be satisfied with it" attitude we're getting.

What's to say something won't come out of those events? How can you consider it a fact that none of the plot points are being followed up on when we know virtually nothing about the plot or the game? All we know about the plot of DA2 so far is: Refugee flees lothering, becomes champion of kirkwall. That's all the plot we've been given. What is it about that information that makes people think it says "and nothing you did in Origins will ever see the light of day again"?
It's already confirmed that Flemeth is coming back in some way. That right there is a plot point being carried into DA2.
If Flemeth is there Morrigan will likely be connected in some way.
If Morrigan is connected in some way then her child (godchild or not) is bound to follow.
We know, thanks to the timeline, that the Templars have power in Kirkwall (mind you, we don't know what this means about the plot, it's only applicable to the setting so far). If the Templars are involved we may very well see Cullen or Greagoir again.
All speculation and theory of course but if I can think that up in a few minutes surely Gaider and the team can come up with plenty of ways to connect the two chapters.

[R_Mckay]

magpie wrote...


It seems to me that the direction DA seems to be taken is console - and therefore money - driven. The PS3 and 360 market expects VO, and to separately record different voices for each and every possible permutation of character would be vastly expensive, and obviously something that no game company could take on.

Whether or not this route is driven at Bioware 'level', or higher up the EA tree is anyone's guess, but it seems obvious that the days of being able to play out our stories in their world is at an end. The tale of Hawke seems at first glance to have more in common with the interactive movies pumped out in the 90s than with what most of us would seem to recognise as a role-playing game.

Like it or not, on the information presented thus far, DA2 will be us playing through their story, rather than being the masters of our own destiny. Of course, this was always the case, but in earlier games, it was certainly disguised better.

Like many people here, I have issues with some of the changes revealed;

VO, because no matter how good the actor used, Hawke will never sound right to me, as they'll always be what Bioware's Hawke sounds like, rather than mine.

Dialogue Wheel because I really, really want to see what I'm going to be saying, rather that sort of what I'll be saying.

class / Race restrictions for obvious reasons. I want to play my story, not yours.

All of these issues, I suspect, were done to simplify the design process, so cross platform versions of the game are easier - and therefore cheaper - to produce. Like it or not, This is big business now, and the game company that I and many others here loved needs to shift boxes, and that means pandering to a mass market rather than the closed little group we belong to.

the underlined words says it all......sad but true:crying: just like the quoted article from the escapist dying breed and all that

I'm glad that combat hasnt changed for the PC, eventho I own a PS3, bioware games have always been PC games for me.

it will be sad indeed for people who loved and enjoyed DA:O and find out as more information about DA2 becomes available as Mr. Gaider says  ".... the game may not be for you...." but like the man said, lets wait and see, but to be fair lets us see the game in action, surely with the game in develpment for about a year or so... it is coming out next year right... a demo of how it runs shouldnt be too hard to show to your fans... or will you keep it under raps and keep us guessing if we're going to like it or not?

but let me throw something completely out to left field.... perhaps "Hawke" male or female depending on what would be "canon" in the world of thedas/dragon age is in answer to who Drizzt is in the world of Faerun, world building through character recognition? ...nah...

[tbsking]

Jallard wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Jallard wrote...
VO has nothing to do with it, as far as I am concerned. As for Leliana my expectation was seeing and experiencing the original story that she told. How Leliana's Song played had nothing to do with my expectation either. It was ok in that aspect. It just wasn't her story.  Plus, the armor was cheesy at best. I would have enjoyed seeing the model's version.

I haven't played the DLC. I don't buy DLC because I don't see the value in it. I'm happy with the full version of the game. So I really do want to understand - how was it not her story? You might have something important to say that could affect how I see DA. Which is why I want to hear it.

But, enough of that! We will just have to see next year when the game comes out.  I hope they will at least have a demo version. Because I would hate to pay $50 to $70 for game I instantly hated: And, I think that is only fair.

I would bet very strongly against it. In fact, I can't recall the last time Bioware released a demo.

Well, in the first place as she originally tells her story in Origins her reasons for coming to Ferelden and Lothering was as a result of something that occurred in Orlais. In the DLC it all takes place in Denerim and she has two companions. In her original story she was alone during that particular assassination job. Now you can pick it abart and make assumptions that she is a BARD and tells stories, so therefore she could have been lying, when she first tells the story. I wasn't looking for ifs or maybes or that she was going to tell a different tale. I was looking for her original story. If I had known that the DLC was going to be different I would not have purchased it.

Incidentally, I didn't purchase the DarkSpawn Chronicles either. I had no desire to play a DarkSpawn, just like I have had no desire to play a Dwarf.

I am sure that they won't produce a demo, because that may cause people not to purchase the full game; And, we wouldn't want that would we? I am semi retired and I have very little money to waste on a game that I may not like. If they are going to win me over they have their work cutout for them.

To be fair to BW, trying to design completely new resources to use for an Orlesian setting would have been so expensive and time consuming as to make it unfeasable to implement in a DLC. If anything, that's something that would go into a fully-fledged expansion. I'm more curious as to why they chose Leliana's backstory specifically for a seperate DLC story. I mean, she does sort of lay it all out flat, and never once struck me as the sort of person that would lie to the same person she would trust with such information. For $7, though, it was a pretty good trip. I didn't get Darspawn Chronicles because I heard it was't all that great.

[Ulicus]

tbsking wrote...

To be fair to BW, trying to design completely new resources to use for an Orlesian setting would have been so expensive and time consuming as to make it unfeasable to implement in a DLC.

Absolutely. But, knowing that they weren't going to feature Orlais should have dissuaded them from telling the story of Leliana's betrayal. It's not like people wouldn't have enjoyed a DLC about Leliana's bardic adventures with Majoraline prior to the the souring of their relationship. It could have just as easily have been the story of Leliana's arrival in Ferelden following her betrayal, or something.

Or, while they HAD the actresses involved, they could have recorded new lines to override what was said in Origins. 

tbsking wrote...
If anything, that's something that would go into a fully-fledged expansion. I'm more curious as to why they chose Leliana's backstory specifically for a seperate DLC story. I mean, she does sort of lay it all out flat, and never once struck me as the sort of person that would lie to the same person she would trust with such information.

Since Majorlaine corroborates her Origins story, Leliana's song has to be the lie.

Still, contradictions aside, I enjoyed the DLC, too.

[odiedragon]

In Exile wrote...

odiedragon wrote...
And that would be fine, if Origins hadn't been set up as leading up to something more.  If we hadn't been playing thinking that our choices would have long-reaching concequences.

But why do you have the impression that any of this is true? None of the choices that we make in DA:O, save some of the end-game choices, would seem to have any major effect. Apparently never fully implemented, the choice to lose Eamon would have meant he was replaced by Teagan; this would alter the world, but only insofar as there would be a new Arl of Redcliffe. Whether or not the city stands means only it has to be repopulated. Rite of Annulment or no, there would still have no be another Circle in Ferelden.

You have no idea how much I wanted that option.

The entire feel of the game was that your choices were important.  We hashed this out earlier, but it's still true.

The only choices that would seem to be far-reaching are 1) if the dwarves have golems, because that could well make them imperialistic. Otherwise every other character who dies can be replaced by another character.

Most of all, you could die at the end of the game. For Bioware to let you continue, as they did in Awakening, they effectively have to say, no wait, nuh-uh, that one ending wasn't cannon. It's one decision you could never see or hear about in-game.

Hell, the TITLE of the game is Dragon Age: ORIGINS.  Not Dragon Age: The Fifth Blight.  Something was supposed to come out of these events.  The fact that none of these plot points are being followed up on is what's angering people, I think.  You see a lot of Hawke-rage, because he's the obvious scapegoat.  But the more and more I think about it, the less and less I realize that it's Hawke that pisses me off.  It's the "Well, you only get the first chapter of the story now, and you'd better be satisfied with it" attitude we're getting.

Actually, the title of the game was Dragon Age. A few months before release (the original PC release, not the delay to have the simultaenous release with the consoles) they changed the title to Origins. This was a very late production decision.

So I would wager very strongly against there having to have been anything special coming out of these events, because Origins as a title came about while the game was in QA for the PC.

So you can have hard rage about not getting more Warden. But this story was never about the Warden. People just make it that way, but I can tell you, this was never something we heard, something we talked about, or something we thought while we were following the development of Dragon Age originally.

It's never been about The Warden.  If they can continue on the story well without the Warden, then fine.  I just see no indication that this is the direction they're heading.

There are plenty of choices that would be far-reaching, including the instance you state there.

Just because something was not a part of the initial concept doesn't suddenly invalidate it from the final product.

[odiedragon]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

What's to say something won't come out of those events? How can you consider it a fact that none of the plot points are being followed up on when we know virtually nothing about the plot or the game? All we know about the plot of DA2 so far is: Refugee flees lothering, becomes champion of kirkwall. That's all the plot we've been given. What is it about that information that makes people think it says "and nothing you did in Origins will ever see the light of day again"?
It's already confirmed that Flemeth is coming back in some way. That right there is a plot point being carried into DA2.
If Flemeth is there Morrigan will likely be connected in some way.
If Morrigan is connected in some way then her child (godchild or not) is bound to follow.
We know, thanks to the timeline, that the Templars have power in Kirkwall (mind you, we don't know what this means about the plot, it's only applicable to the setting so far). If the Templars are involved we may very well see Cullen or Greagoir again.
All speculation and theory of course but if I can think that up in a few minutes surely Gaider and the team can come up with plenty of ways to connect the two chapters.

Connection is not continuation.  Nor is it plot expansion/resolution.

Maybe they'll pull it off.  But it sure doesn't seem like they even want to go in that direction, based off of everything I've read.

[Jimmy Fury]

odiedragon wrote...
Connection is not continuation.  Nor is it plot expansion/resolution.

Maybe they'll pull it off.  But it sure doesn't seem like they even want to go in that direction, based off of everything I've read.

Connection is continuation when you're talking about minor points in a larger plot. Everything you've mentioned is a part of the plot of Origins not the entire thing. So yes, if Morrigan's baby shows up it is a connection to the origins plot and a continuation of that point.

Regardless of the semantics you still haven't answered the question. Additional assertations are not explanations for why you believe all of those points will be abandoned.
You're perfectly right to feel any way you want to feel, all I'm asking is that you explain the source of these feelings. What about the plot of DA2 (Refugee becomes champion) dictates that none of those other plot points can ever be continued?

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 15 juillet 2010 - 06:13 .

[In Exile]

odiedragon wrote...
You have no idea how much I wanted that option.

I wanted my human noble to be able to convince the Landsmeet that a Cousland hero is better than traitor Queen and bastard King Alistair, but that wasn't available. That option was entirely why I rolled a human noble in the first place. That this wasn't an option was an incredible blow after 50 hrs of gameplay.

The entire feel of the game was that your choices were important.  We hashed this out earlier, but it's still true.

Right, and they are. Added toghether, they make for quite a different contemporary Ferelden. I guess my issue is that I see very few choices as being the kind of choice that requires a second game.

It's never been about The Warden.  If they can continue on the story well without the Warden, then fine.  I just see no indication that this is the direction they're heading.

I'm confused. Could you clarify what you mean?

There are plenty of choices that would be far-reaching, including the instance you state there.

Which? You've said this before, but I really would like examples. If you count Awakening, the only other major choice I see is the Architect. But I would rather pretend like Awakening doesn't exist unless they make me.

Just because something was not a part of the initial concept doesn't suddenly invalidate it from the final product.

Certainly not. But as I would have said in the other thread - you're taking a very definite stance about what Origins could mean. I don't want to disprove it by proving another meaning; I only want to undermine the claim enough by showing that that the certainty you wanted to claim isn't there.

[Exerxes]

Well I should show that I have concerns for the direction of DA2 as well. I love Bioware and all their games but DA was in a different place to ME. Now it seems Bioware is going the ME route with DA2. I am concerned...



No doubt I will still pay my 30 gold coins in Feb/Mar 11. But I really hope they revert to the way it should be for DA3. DA should not be a Fantasy version of ME...

[odiedragon]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

odiedragon wrote...
Connection is not continuation.  Nor is it plot expansion/resolution.

Maybe they'll pull it off.  But it sure doesn't seem like they even want to go in that direction, based off of everything I've read.

Connection is continuation when you're talking about minor points in a larger plot. Everything you've mentioned is a part of the plot of Origins not the entire thing. So yes, if Morrigan's baby shows up it is a connection to the origins plot and a continuation of that point.

Regardless of the semantics you still haven't answered the question. Additional assertations are not explanations for why you believe all of those points will be abandoned.
You're perfectly right to feel any way you want to feel, all I'm asking is that you explain the source of these feelings. What about the plot of DA2 (Refugee becomes champion) dictates that none of those other plot points can ever be continued?

Because I've read on here that the "warden's story is finished".  To me, that means that anything that happened in DA:O will have minimal impact going forward.

[In Exile]

odiedragon wrote...

Because I've read on here that the "warden's story is finished".  To me, that means that anything that happened in DA:O will have minimal impact going forward.

But that's a total non-sequiteur. The Warden's story is finished. A native of Ferelden was caught up in a tragedy and through the intervention of the Grey Warden Duncan was saved. This young hero joined the Warden order at Ostagar and survived with Alistair only through the intervention of Flemeth. Alone, and against all odds, the Warden formed an army of nations to stand against the Blight. Through your awesome heorism + 10, you defeaed the Fifth Blight in a year, instead of the decades - centuries it usually takes to defeat a Blight. It was the greatest victory the Wardens ever experienced against the darkspawn.

The other things aren't stories related to the Warden. This is why I just can't relate to DA:O so strongly - because I happened not to cary very strongly about the story they wanted to tell around the Warden, specifically that the Warden's life is about being the lone rookie Grey Warden that only stops the Blight.

[Jimmy Fury]

Well then that's your interpretation of those words. It's in no way proof nor is it what we "know for a fact." It's simply how you have chosen to read the sentence.

I myself don't see it as having anything to do with Alistair's story, Morrigan's story, Anora's story, Orzamar's story, the Dalish's story, or any of the other stories that were introduced alongside the Warden's.

[odiedragon]

In Exile wrote...

odiedragon wrote...

The entire feel of the game was that your choices were important.  We hashed this out earlier, but it's still true.

Right, and they are. Added toghether, they make for quite a different contemporary Ferelden. I guess my issue is that I see very few choices as being the kind of choice that requires a second game.

Require?  No, I suppose not "require".  But expand upon and use going forward?  There's a lot of things there.

It's never been about The Warden.  If they can continue on the story well without the Warden, then fine.  I just see no indication that this is the direction they're heading.

I'm confused. Could you clarify what you mean?

You can continue the story without making the PC your Warden.  At least, I would think you can.  But that doesn't seem to be the direction things are going.

There are plenty of choices that would be far-reaching, including the instance you state there.

Which? You've said this before, but I really would like examples. If you count Awakening, the only other major choice I see is the Architect. But I would rather pretend like Awakening doesn't exist unless they make me.

• God-baby (or not)
• Finding Morrigan
• The fact that no matter WHO you put on the throne, Ferelden is poised for another civil war because there will most likely not be an heir.  Except maybe god-baby.
• Your decisions in Orzammar, and how that affects the dwarves going forward. 
• Relations with the elves, depending on whether or not you killed Zathrian. 
• What will happen with the Circle of Magi, depending on whether or not you saved or killed the mages, and especially if the Circle gets its freedom in the end.
• Empress Celine being spurned for her proposal of a "permanent alliance" with Ferelden.  Even if events lead to her offer no longer being applicable (such as putting Anora on the throne) she still would be miffed about it.  Even more so in the cases of Alistair/Anora, Alistair/Warden, or Anora/Warden.
• The Architect and the effects of letting him live or killing him
• The Warden's disappearance several years after the end of Awakening

Do these "need" another game?  No.  But it seemed to me that it would be these factors (and probably some I've forgotten) would be a great place for the next game to start.  It would have been hard to develop, this is true.  But I had hopes that they would at least *try*.

Just because something was not a part of the initial concept doesn't suddenly invalidate it from the final product.

Certainly not. But as I would have said in the other thread - you're taking a very definite stance about what Origins could mean. I don't want to disprove it by proving another meaning; I only want to undermine the claim enough by showing that that the certainty you wanted to claim isn't there.

Then the name is a misnomer to many people who did not hang out here for years and years.  I took the word to have two meanings, the obvious one implying the six origins, and the more over-sweeping one of these are the events from which the rest of the story originates.  Clearly, this makes me an uninformed entitled moron, if this forum is to be believed. <_<

Modifié par odiedragon, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:29 .

[Davasar]

R_Mckay wrote...

magpie wrote...


It seems to me that the direction DA seems to be taken is console - and therefore money - driven. The PS3 and 360 market expects VO, and to separately record different voices for each and every possible permutation of character would be vastly expensive, and obviously something that no game company could take on.

Whether or not this route is driven at Bioware 'level', or higher up the EA tree is anyone's guess, but it seems obvious that the days of being able to play out our stories in their world is at an end. The tale of Hawke seems at first glance to have more in common with the interactive movies pumped out in the 90s than with what most of us would seem to recognise as a role-playing game.

Like it or not, on the information presented thus far, DA2 will be us playing through their story, rather than being the masters of our own destiny. Of course, this was always the case, but in earlier games, it was certainly disguised better.

Like many people here, I have issues with some of the changes revealed;

VO, because no matter how good the actor used, Hawke will never sound right to me, as they'll always be what Bioware's Hawke sounds like, rather than mine.

Dialogue Wheel because I really, really want to see what I'm going to be saying, rather that sort of what I'll be saying.

class / Race restrictions for obvious reasons. I want to play my story, not yours.

All of these issues, I suspect, were done to simplify the design process, so cross platform versions of the game are easier - and therefore cheaper - to produce. Like it or not, This is big business now, and the game company that I and many others here loved needs to shift boxes, and that means pandering to a mass market rather than the closed little group we belong to.

the underlined words says it all......sad but true:crying: just like the quoted article from the escapist dying breed and all that

I'm glad that combat hasnt changed for the PC, eventho I own a PS3, bioware games have always been PC games for me.

it will be sad indeed for people who loved and enjoyed DA:O and find out as more information about DA2 becomes available as Mr. Gaider says  ".... the game may not be for you...." but like the man said, lets wait and see, but to be fair lets us see the game in action, surely with the game in develpment for about a year or so... it is coming out next year right... a demo of how it runs shouldnt be too hard to show to your fans... or will you keep it under raps and keep us guessing if we're going to like it or not?

but let me throw something completely out to left field.... perhaps "Hawke" male or female depending on what would be "canon" in the world of thedas/dragon age is in answer to who Drizzt is in the world of Faerun, world building through character recognition? ...nah...

What magpie wrote is spot on.  As far as character recognition and world building?  That's fine for a book.   But this is not a book...unless you are talking about something that has much less immersion and plays like a choose your own adventure rather then a deep, immersive game.  It is a wholly unnecessary step.

The world was built just fine by seeing it through the eyes of my character.  

But, by appealing to the lowest common denominator, they are going to suffer for quality and bask in the light that is mediocre games that abound in the industry.  By leaving their loyal fanbase behind, they will certainly enjoy the fickle mass market when the next new shiny comes along.

That is a recipe for long term failure for the sake of short term gain. 

[In Exile]

Davasar wrote...
But, by appealing to the lowest common denominator, they are going to suffer for quality and bask in the light that is mediocre games that abound in the industry.  By leaving their loyal fanbase behind, they will certainly enjoy the fickle mass market when the next new shiny comes along.

That is a recipe for long term failure for the sake of short term gain.

The lowest common denominator? You're really going to go there? You want to play the niche market is special and brilliant and anyone who likes anything else is a moron card?

As inconceivable for you as it might be, very sophisticated and capable people have very legitimate reasons for defining an RPG in a way you do not. Would you like a debate on whether or not literary interpretation of dialogue in cRPGs is legitimate? The degree to which fixed NPC responses must neccesarily determine tone and limit characterization? The nature of false choice and characterization? The logical inconsistency of "using your imagination" in a visual medium with fixed outcomes?

Leave the superior BS aside. You're not smart or special for having the tastes you do, and other people are not stupid for having the tastes that they do.

[AlanC9]

Can't wait for the response to that one....

[odiedragon]

You're (the collective you) are calling the niche market people morons. What do you expect the response to be?!



Gaming is too huge now, unfortunately, to NOT appeal to the least common denominator on some level. I think that's why so many of us liked DA:O so much. It was a throwback to a time when games weren't marketed to the masses.

[AlanC9]

odiedragon wrote...

You're (the collective you) are calling the niche market people morons. What do you expect the response to be?!.

Could you source that? I thought they were being called delusional whiners, not morons. 

[joriandrake]

okay people, now you're getting way too insulting

[Dragonnaire]

I thought we would end up going to the west side of the map. Given that we were told at the epilogue bit that the darkspawn were travelling west (or was it north?)

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

In Exile wrote...

The lowest common denominator? You're really going to go there? You want to play the niche market is special and brilliant and anyone who likes anything else is a moron card?

I'm always amused when people insist that their particular preferences in geekery represent some sort of artistic soarings of the human spirit, whereas other preferences in geekery are shameful, demotic, and vulgar.

[Jimmy Fury]

Jorian's right it's all getting a bit too personal now.
I see a lot of lines being drawn in the sand and, I gotta say, I find it all a bit disheartening. We're all on the forum because we are BioWare's target audience. If anything the lowest common denominator games are like Wii sports because they're designed to appeal to everyone including grandmothers who want to try out something new. At the opposite end of the spectrum the most superduperserious RPG loyalists are the guys who think anything that isn't table top D&D is a cheap knock off.
None of us, no matter how we feel or want we want in a game, are here representing either of those groups. Nobody wants DA to be Wii sports nor do we want it to be table top D&D. We want a game we can get absorbed in and enjoy at the same time.
So... yeah... cuz if the personal stuff keeps up Woo's hammer will put us all in our place very quickly.

(and if you do want to debate the stuff exile mentioned then by all means please do. we're very good at it )