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Any insight into the "why" and "when" on the direction of DA2....


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#701
In Exile

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Kalfear wrote...

It was dumbed down cause half the RPG Elements for customization to story to interaction to emotional connection were removed from game (they were there in ME1).

But I suspect you know this full well and just trying to start a arguement with someone that dares to not like what you like!


No - I don't know this full well. Which RPG elements were removed?

To put it another way: I am not saying ME2 was an RPG. I am saying ME wasn't much of an RPG, and there was little if anything to remove to make it less of an RPG.

Rather than assume I share your opinion and I am lying, because at least give me enough respect to assume that when I write something, I am telling the truth. So which crucial RPG elements were present in ME that were wholesale removed in ME2?

Terror_K wrote...

Yeah, pretty much this. On top of that
ME2 was so overly-simplified as an RPG it was insulting... like going to
a university math lecture to find the Professor condescendingly
teaching you that "1 + 1 = 2" repeatedly. I often describe ME2 as being
"Fisher Price: My First RPG" in this regard. Beyond that, I'm not going
into specifics in a Dragon Age topic on the Dragon Age 2 forums. If you
want to know my feelings beyond this about ME2 just find the
"Disappointment in Mass Effect 2" thread that hovers on the first two
pages of the main ME2 sub-forum. It's all in there... multiple times.


ME2 was barely an RPG from a gameplay standpoint - sure. But so was ME1. I suppose this is my issue. It's not that I disagree with the criticism of the
series - it's just that I simply do not see the transition from ME to
ME2 as indicative of any shift in a less RPG direction.

#702
Jimmy Fury

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Mycrus Ironfist wrote...
when i heard about hawke i actually thought that they were building a separate game within the dragon age franchise and that somehow the "origins" story would continue at some future point.

after reading all the DA books and playing all the DLCs (except Leliana, i'll get to that eventually) i still think that the calling and the awakening painted the plot into a corner --> i was perfectly fine with the thought of battling another blight in DA2 / DA3 /DA4, etc.

so devs need something like hawke to introduce new story arcs..


According to the lore in Origins we were never going to be fighting another blight, at least not within the confines of The Dragon Age. Blights come hundreds of years apart so by time the next blight comes the Dragon Age will be over and it'll be a new age.
And there are only 7 old gods so there can only be 7 blights. The blight in Origins was number 5 so there are only 2 blights left.

#703
Sylvius the Mad

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In Exile wrote...

Wait - you accuse me of appealing to authority... and then you appeal to authority?

To be fair, hypocrisy has no logical relevance.

#704
Jimmy Fury

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Wait - you accuse me of appealing to authority... and then you appeal to authority?

To be fair, hypocrisy has no logical relevance.


Well it can if the hypocrisy in question is the use of a logical fallacy to dismiss the same logical fallacy.
If I were to use an argument from outrage and someone dismissed my fallacy then used an equal argument from outrage then it would be logically prudent to point out that the same fallacy has been used for the same purpose.
Additionally if it is used to question someones biases or if it is used as a point-of-fact to show that an argument is using an invalid premise then it can also be relevant but that has nothing to do with the current debate.
But, to be fair to your point it is only applicable in the first instance when it is brought up in order to dismiss both logical fallacies and to formulate a new argument. The simple act of pointing out hypocrisy, in and of itself, is not a valid argument for anything.
;)

#705
In Exile

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Wait - you accuse me of appealing to authority... and then you appeal to authority?

To be fair, hypocrisy has no logical relevance.


I don't see it as a matter of hypocrisy. Rather, I see it as the following: If you appeal to authority, then your argument does not merit attention. You appealed to authority, so your argument does not merit attention. But if this is the rule and we suppose it is true, then clearly any appeal to authority is equally suspect. So I would think it does stand on logical grounds.

#706
Sylvius the Mad

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In Exile wrote...

I don't see it as a matter of hypocrisy. Rather, I see it as the following: If you appeal to authority, then your argument does not merit attention. You appealed to authority, so your argument does not merit attention. But if this is the rule and we suppose it is true, then clearly any appeal to authority is equally suspect. So I would think it does stand on logical grounds.

Yes, but the second person being wrong doesn't make the first person any less wrong.

#707
naumutroi

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Dragon Age 2......If I wanted to play Mass Effect I'd buy the damn game! I want Dragon Age 2 to a rigins. Does Bioware know what the word SEQUEL means? They should make a Dragon Age DLC for Mass Effect 2 if they wanted Mass Effect with swords instead of ruining a great game.

#708
Nozybidaj

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naumutroi wrote...

Does Bioware know what the word SEQUEL means?


After ME2 and seeing where they are going with DA2, I think the answer is a resounding no.  They don't have any concept of what a sequel is. :P

#709
naumutroi

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Knight-Commander Shepard of the Grey Wardens .... Mass Effect 3: the Dragon Age

#710
Nozybidaj

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naumutroi wrote...

Knight-Commander Shepard of the Grey Wardens .... Mass Effect 3: the Dragon Age


For the love of.......don't give them any ideas.....

#711
naumutroi

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lets see...a krogan would be Dwarf. the Grey Wardens are Spectre. ..mages are biotics...what else??

#712
naumutroi

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lol .... Dragon Age 2: Massive Defect ... lol

#713
naumutroi

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well....if they really wanted to turn it up a notch they could have made Dragon Age 2 more like Assassin's Creed with companions and magic than Mass Effect 2 with swords.. Then at least we would actually have horses to use instead of walking from place to place. The combat system for Assassin's creed is also better since we have more control of the combat and can disarm or counter a opponant's attack. Also making it more like Assassin's creed will give us cities and towns that are more alive. Dennerim is supposed to be Feraldin's capital, a big city and it looked more like a small hamlet. In Assassin's Creed the cities like Jerusalem were huge and filled with lots of people. Merging Assassin's Creed and Dragon Age would be a perfect fit and a lot more interesting than making it a clone of Mass Effect 2

#714
naumutroi

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hmmm...that is a idea. ...make a Dragon Age mod for Assassin's Creed.....or a Assassin's Creed mod for Dragon Age.....fascinating.

#715
Jallard

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Nozybidaj wrote...

naumutroi wrote...

Does Bioware know what the word SEQUEL means?


After ME2 and seeing where they are going with DA2, I think the answer is a resounding no.  They don't have any concept of what a sequel is. :P


I don't think it is a question of Bioware not knowing what a sequel is, but rather, them taking liberties on how and what they want to write and produce. They are the developers after all. They can take whatever creative license they wish, for reasons of their own, whether we like it or not.

#716
Kalfear

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In Exile wrote...

Kalfear wrote...

It was dumbed down cause half the RPG Elements for customization to story to interaction to emotional connection were removed from game (they were there in ME1).

But I suspect you know this full well and just trying to start a arguement with someone that dares to not like what you like!


No - I don't know this full well. Which RPG elements were removed?

To put it another way: I am not saying ME2 was an RPG. I am saying ME wasn't much of an RPG, and there was little if anything to remove to make it less of an RPG.

Rather than assume I share your opinion and I am lying, because at least give me enough respect to assume that when I write something, I am telling the truth. So which crucial RPG elements were present in ME that were wholesale removed in ME2?


Nothing to do with sharing me opinion.

I thought (gave you credit) that if someone put a apple in front of you you would agree its a apple!
Appearently you one of those that will argue its actually a orange!
my appologies,
I wont make the mistake again!

From now on I wont assume you fully realize things that are straight up obvious as being,... well straight up obvious to you.

Oh and asking what RPG Elements were removed doesnt make your arguement better or any more truthful.
Really it makes you look like a troll living in denial!
Some things are fact regardless on your own personal opinion and 1/2 the RPG elements from ME1 being removed is one of those undebatable (intellegently) truths.
Argueing that is like argueing the world isnt really round. Yeah you can keep saying its not but that doesnt make you right or correct even once.

Modifié par Kalfear, 16 juillet 2010 - 09:17 .


#717
Jimmy Fury

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naumutroi wrote...

Dragon Age 2......If I wanted to play Mass Effect I'd buy the damn game! I want Dragon Age 2 to a rigins. Does Bioware know what the word SEQUEL means? They should make a Dragon Age DLC for Mass Effect 2 if they wanted Mass Effect with swords instead of ruining a great game.

hmmm... I have to ask, do you know what the word "sequel" means?
Sequel doesn't necessarily mean "exactly the same as the previous one."
Observe.

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary wrote...
Main Entry: se·quel
Pronunciation:
\\\\\\\\ˈsē-kwəl also -ˌkwel\\\\\\\\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French sequele,
from Latin sequela, from sequi to follow — more at sue Date:
15th century

1 : consequence,
result
2
a
: subsequent development b
: the next installment (as of a speech or story); especially
: a literary, cinematic, or televised work continuing
the course of a story begun in a preceding one

DA2 is the next installment in the series. It continues the story of Thedas, Flemeth, and who knows what other elements that were originally introduced in origins. So by definition it's a sequel.

--snippity snip redacted for off topicness--

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 16 juillet 2010 - 11:17 .


#718
In Exile

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Kalfear wrote...
Nothing to do with sharing me opinion.

I thought (gave you credit) that if someone put a apple in front of you you would agree its a apple!
Appearently you one of those that will argue its actually a orange!
my appologies,
I wont make the mistake again!

From now on I wont assume you fully realize things that are straight up obvious as being,... well straight up obvious to you.

Oh and asking what RPG Elements were removed doesnt make your arguement better or any more truthful.
Really it makes you look like a troll living in denial!
Some things are fact regardless on your own personal opinion and 1/2 the RPG elements from ME1 being removed is one of those undebatable (intellegently) truths.
Argueing that is like argueing the world isnt really round. Yeah you can keep saying its not but that doesnt make you right or correct even once.


Right, I see. I'm just stupid for not agreeing with you. Well, this was a great and stimulating conversation. I apologize for not recognizing I was an idiot and a troll. I stand defeat by your wisdom.

Just for the record: the initial claim was not that 1/2 of the RPG elements in ME were removed for ME2. It was that ME2 was dumbed down because 1/2 of the RPG elements were removed and no longer and RPG. Which I continue to disagree with. But obviously that it is because I am so stupid I cannot even realize when the game was made appropriate for my level of intelligence.

#719
Tantum Dic Verbo

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There are some elements of gameplay I would like to see move (fractionally) in the direction of Mass Effect 2, or perhaps something else entirely. Of course, the question of "why" Bioware sees the need to do this with a popular game is still unclear. It may jive with my design preferences, but it seems an unusual risk.

#720
Stanley Woo

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Let's cut the nastiness and off-topic chatter, please. We can disagree with each other without resorting to insults and name-calling. thank you.

#721
2papercuts

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Nozybidaj wrote...

naumutroi wrote...

Knight-Commander Shepard of the Grey Wardens .... Mass Effect 3: the Dragon Age


For the love of.......don't give them any ideas.....


its more like Fable Effect 3: Mass Dragons with a new art style
Posted Image

Modifié par 2papercuts, 16 juillet 2010 - 11:13 .


#722
naumutroi

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Sequel: The most common approach is for the events of the second work to directly follow the events of the first, either picking up dangling plot threads or introducing a new conflict to drive the events of a second story. The origin of the sequel as we think of it today is most closely connected the novel which developed from the novella and romance traditions of the 17th century. It is impossible to say for sure when the history of the exactly sequel begins, as the concept of the sequel in its loosest definition has presumably existed since the advent of storytelling. One of the earliest sequels being the Illiad, the Odyssey and the Aenead.

Stand-Alone Sequel: When sequels are set in the same universe but have little or no reference to their predecessors, the work is called a stand-alone sequel.. These works often do not require viewers to encounter the previous installments in order to understand them. Batman Forever is a stand alone sequel as the film is campy compared to its dark predecessors, its only reference to its predecessor Batman Returns is Dr Meridian Chase's line "Or do I need skin tight vinyl and a whip?" DA2 could be a "stand-alone sequel" just as Darkspawn Chronicles.

Companion Piece: A companion piece is a creative work that is produced as a complementary work to another stand-alone project, but storywise has nothing to do with its predecessor. While a companion piece does not necessarily need to take place within the same "universe" as the predecessor, it must follow-up on specific themes and ideas introduced in the original work. It must also be intentionally meant by its creator to be viewed alongside or within the same context as the earlier work. It is also known as a "spiritual successor" as in DA: Origins is a "spiritual successor" to Baldur's Gate.

Sidequel: A sequel that allows substantial creative freedom is one that is set in the same Universe but with unrelated plots, and sometimes unrelated characters. One example of this is the Grand Theft Auto series, which contains a multitude of games, each of which follows a different character and storyline or as in the movie Soldier which is a sidequel of Blade Runner, but are set in the same fictional universe. A sidequel is also called a spin-off. DA2 could be a sidequel. Leliana's Song could be considered both a prequel and a sidequel to the events of DA: Origins and possibly even a companion piece or stand-alone.

Prequel: A sequel that portrays events which precede those of the original work, called a "prequel." These can often avoid the plot problems associated with having to deal with the consequences of the original (e.g. the death of an important character). However they pose the challenge of maintaining dramatic interest when the outcome is already known from the original work, so the focus is usually on the character interactions or revealing how the characters and situations of the original work developed. Examples are the Yoshi's Island video games. DA1 could be a prequel of DA2.

Midquel: A midquel is a sequel which can take place during a chronology gap within a single previously completed work such the DLC's from DA: Origins.

Parallel: A sequel can portray the events of a previously completed work from another perspective. As with a prequel, the focus is not on the outcome, but on the characters and previously unrevealed information. Darkspawn Chronicles could be put into this catagory.

Interquel: When there are already two or more completed works, an interquel can portray events which happen between them, bridging one story to the other. The interquel is therefore a sequel to one work and a prequel to another. DA: Awakenings can be considered to be this for now.

Distant: Sometimes there is a large chronological interval between the events in a completed work and its sequel. This can allow the creators additional freedom, since the characters and settings will not be expected to have as much in common. A distant sequel allows time for new conflicts to develop, and a distant prequel need not directly establish the setting for the original. One example is Knights of the old Republic to the two core Star Wars trilogies or the Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings.

Modifié par naumutroi, 16 juillet 2010 - 11:45 .


#723
naumutroi

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yea..with at least the Hero of Fable did not have to be a Rogue to open locks or a Mage to cast magic. He was Warrior, Mage and Rogue all rolled up into one. Maybe Bioware can create a new specielization called the Hero class err... I mean ar Grey Warden class where a warrior gets to do some of the stuff a Rogue and a Mage can do.

#724
Pocketgb

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Kalfear wrote...

OMG thank you for clarifying that Mary!'
I damn near had a heart attack with what I read the way it was stated.

One of my biggest complaints about ME2 was I could treat Miranda like dirt, kill her sister, call her every name in the book and as long as I choose the right conversation spots 3 times, She was madly in love with me and we were going to a fade to black screen before the big battle!

That pissed me off to no end, how you act and how you treat people should effect how they respond to you! Gaining someones trust should be a all game concept, not a just acouple key conversations here and there.


Hopefully you clarified that complaint to essentially be a problem with uh, all of Bioware's games.

I called Leliana a ****, made her feel like crap all the time, never complimented her, always degarded her - but ended up living 'happily ever after' with her at the end because I showered her with earrings and all sorts of other gifts.

It was far from a legit playthrough and I'm a big fan of Leliana so I felt like crap, but I really wanted to see how far I could go, how much I could get away with - and man, I could get away with it all!! The approval system was a great concept, but it shouldn't be easily tampered with.

In Exile wrote...

ME2 was barely an RPG from a gameplay
standpoint - sure. But so was ME1. I suppose this is my issue. It's not
that I disagree with the criticism of the series - it's just that I simply do not see the transition from ME to ME2 as indicative of any shift in a less RPG direction.


Here's the difference: ME1 had the illusion of depth. Heck, most of Bioware's games do. ME2 was different because it tore away the veil and pretty much showed people the amount of 'depth' that actually existed: not a whole lot.

naumutroi wrote...

yea..with at least the Hero of Fable
did not have to be a Rogue to open locks or a Mage to cast magic. He
was Warrior, Mage and Rogue all rolled up into one. Maybe Bioware can
create a new specielization called the Hero class err... I mean ar Grey
Warden class where a warrior gets to do some of the stuff a Rogue and a
Mage can do.


It depends on how you want to balance the game, and this can be clarified in one very comfortable analogy: locks.

Do you want to balance the game in a manner where only thieves can open and remove locks? Or do you balance it where thieves can lockpick a lock, Warriors can bash it open, and Mages can use magic to unhinge it?

Modifié par Pocketgb, 17 juillet 2010 - 12:29 .


#725
Jallard

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naumutroi wrote...

Sequel: The most common approach is for the events of the second work to directly follow the events of the first, either picking up dangling plot threads or introducing a new conflict to drive the events of a second story. The origin of the sequel as we think of it today is most closely connected the novel which developed from the novella and romance traditions of the 17th century. It is impossible to say for sure when the history of the exactly sequel begins, as the concept of the sequel in its loosest definition has presumably existed since the advent of storytelling. One of the earliest sequels being the Illiad, the Odyssey and the Aenead.

Stand-Alone Sequel: When sequels are set in the same universe but have little or no reference to their predecessors, the work is called a stand-alone sequel.. These works often do not require viewers to encounter the previous installments in order to understand them. Batman Forever is a stand alone sequel as the film is campy compared to its dark predecessors, its only reference to its predecessor Batman Returns is Dr Meridian Chase's line "Or do I need skin tight vinyl and a whip?" DA2 could be a "stand-alone sequel" just as Darkspawn Chronicles.

Companion Piece: A companion piece is a creative work that is produced as a complementary work to another stand-alone project, but storywise has nothing to do with its predecessor. While a companion piece does not necessarily need to take place within the same "universe" as the predecessor, it must follow-up on specific themes and ideas introduced in the original work. It must also be intentionally meant by its creator to be viewed alongside or within the same context as the earlier work. It is also known as a "spiritual successor" as in DA: Origins is a "spiritual successor" to Baldur's Gate.

Sidequel: A sequel that allows substantial creative freedom is one that is set in the same Universe but with unrelated plots, and sometimes unrelated characters. One example of this is the Grand Theft Auto series, which contains a multitude of games, each of which follows a different character and storyline or as in the movie Soldier which is a sidequel of Blade Runner, but are set in the same fictional universe. A sidequel is also called a spin-off. DA2 could be a sidequel. Leliana's Song could be considered both a prequel and a sidequel to the events of DA: Origins and possibly even a companion piece or stand-alone.

Prequel: A sequel that portrays events which precede those of the original work, called a "prequel." These can often avoid the plot problems associated with having to deal with the consequences of the original (e.g. the death of an important character). However they pose the challenge of maintaining dramatic interest when the outcome is already known from the original work, so the focus is usually on the character interactions or revealing how the characters and situations of the original work developed. Examples are the Yoshi's Island video games. DA1 could be a prequel of DA2.

Midquel: A midquel is a sequel which can take place during a chronology gap within a single previously completed work such the DLC's from DA: Origins.

Parallel: A sequel can portray the events of a previously completed work from another perspective. As with a prequel, the focus is not on the outcome, but on the characters and previously unrevealed information. Darkspawn Chronicles could be put into this catagory.

Interquel: When there are already two or more completed works, an interquel can portray events which happen between them, bridging one story to the other. The interquel is therefore a sequel to one work and a prequel to another. DA: Awakenings can be considered to be this for now.

Distant: Sometimes there is a large chronological interval between the events in a completed work and its sequel. This can allow the creators additional freedom, since the characters and settings will not be expected to have as much in common. A distant sequel allows time for new conflicts to develop, and a distant prequel need not directly establish the setting for the original. One example is Knights of the old Republic to the two core Star Wars trilogies or the Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings.


Very educational piece. Thanks for the update on Sequels. Still though, it goes back to Bioware having creative license to change things as they see fit.  So, where do think DA2 will fit in among those categories?