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Any insight into the "why" and "when" on the direction of DA2....


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#926
Stanley Woo

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Khavos wrote...
It definitely wasn't an RPG.

I will agree to disagree with you on this point.

That's a tad disingenuous, wouldn't you say?  I got my ideas about what Bioware "streamlining" means from...watching Bioware "streamline".

I dunno. A lot of what was different between Mass 1 and Mass 2 was in response to some of the criticisms we got in the forums and elsewhere. People thought parts of the game were too slow and unwieldy, combat could have been improved, and the pace of the game was generally stop-and-start. So we changed things and, despite initial reticence by the community, Mass Effect 2 is one of BioWare's (and EA's) great successes. If we can achieve similar success (both critically and commercially) with Dragon Age 2, i will be a very happy camper. "Streamlined" or not, whatever you want to call it, if it makes for a better game experience, I'm all for it.

If you guys prove me wrong and make DA2 an actual RPG rather than an action game with a razor-thin RPG veneer à la ME2, I'll be thrilled.  There's really nothing to suggest you will at this point, though, as the press so far eerily resembles what was said about ME2's changes.

Aw, come on, not the "prove me wrong" challenge. that's cheating! :P

#927
AlanC9

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Foreman20 wrote...

Khavos nailed it. BioWare does have a track record. From KOTOR to Jade Empire, to Mass Effect to Dragon Age Origins to Mass Effect/2.


Amazing how many people around here started with KotOR rather than NWN or BG.

#928
Guest_SirShreK_*

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Khavos wrote...
It definitely wasn't an RPG.

I will agree to disagree with you on this point.

That's a tad disingenuous, wouldn't you say?  I got my ideas about what Bioware "streamlining" means from...watching Bioware "streamline".

I dunno. A lot of what was different between Mass 1 and Mass 2 was in response to some of the criticisms we got in the forums and elsewhere. People thought parts of the game were too slow and unwieldy, combat could have been improved, and the pace of the game was generally stop-and-start. So we changed things and, despite initial reticence by the community, Mass Effect 2 is one of BioWare's (and EA's) great successes. If we can achieve similar success (both critically and commercially) with Dragon Age 2, i will be a very happy camper. "Streamlined" or not, whatever you want to call it, if it makes for a better game experience, I'm all for it.

If you guys prove me wrong and make DA2 an actual RPG rather than an action game with a razor-thin RPG veneer à la ME2, I'll be thrilled.  There's really nothing to suggest you will at this point, though, as the press so far eerily resembles what was said about ME2's changes.

Aw, come on, not the "prove me wrong" challenge. that's cheating! :P


Pardon me for saying this, but his fears are a bit justified... NOT BY BIOWARE THOUGH!:ph34r:

I don't really know how decent is to talk of other games behind their back :innocent:, but there was a Great Game called Deux Ex Machina. It was an RPG (I know, superfluous)... its sequel was called Invisible war. Never were gamers betrayed worse.... Sold out to the console they did.....

Modifié par SirShreK, 20 juillet 2010 - 12:20 .


#929
the_one_54321

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Stanley Woo wrote...
Aw, come on, not the "prove me wrong" challenge. that's cheating! :P

All this time I've been a big fat cheater?! "Inconceivable! " :o

#930
Tantum Dic Verbo

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I guess I'm a little mystified at the idea that combat mechanics define an RPG. Is clicking on a circle from a third person isometric view somehow more immersive than staring over a crossbow or sword blade in first-person? It's interesting to see some of the things that mean "role-playing game" to players of CRPG's.




#931
In Exile

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I love the gameplay mechanic versus dialogue debate among so-called "old school" RPG fans because they disagree so dramatically with each other but want to use the same labels. So neither side gets the appropropriate essence of what it means to be a RPG according to the other, but they use identical terms to refer to each other.



Though I like seeing the reaction to DA2 in light of DA even more. Origins are now crucial gameplay features that enhance roleplaying instead of restrictive chains that prevent us from having the character we want. The game has betrayed it roots by appealing to the mass crowds with their Marilyn Manson video and all the pointless blood and gore; now the game was designed and never marketed to the masses, and only now does Bioware dare to do this. And so on.



This isn't to say that I am implying that the same people that pan features now will love them in DA2. Just that perspectives can change dramatically.

#932
Khavos

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Stanley Woo wrote...

I will agree to disagree with you on this point.


You're welcome to, but I see two things arguing in my favor on it: the game can be beaten on Insanity without ever paying any attention whatsoever to the "RPG" aspects, and Christina Norman herself said the game was built as a shooter first, with RPG elements folded in where they could be, and that the "shooter combat must be fun without being propped up by RPG mechanics."  "Richer RPG features" is also listed as one of her primary goals for ME3, and I don't blame her; if the RPG mechanics can be completely and utterly bypassed without any serious impact on the way the game plays, it's a pretty poor RPG in mechanical terms.

I dunno. A lot of what was different between Mass 1 and Mass 2 was in response to some of the criticisms we got in the forums and elsewhere. People thought parts of the game were too slow and unwieldy, combat could have been improved, and the pace of the game was generally stop-and-start. So we changed things and, despite initial reticence by the community, Mass Effect 2 is one of BioWare's (and EA's) great successes.


It's an engaging game.  I actually enjoyed it.  Again, though, it was for the story.  I'm not an anti-shooter RPG elitist; I've probably put more time into Modern Warfare than all my other games combined.  Judging the game purely on its mechanics, I've played better shooters.  I've definitely played better RPGs.  I know you guys are all about defying labels and whatnot these days, but honestly, if I want great shooter combat, I look somewhere other than Bioware.  If I want a great RPG, I look at Bioware. 

There's a restaurant near here that makes fantastic coconut cream pie.  Seriously, I think they lace it with crack.  But if I ordered ice cream and got the coconut cream pie, no matter how good it is, I'd still be annoyed.  You guys, honestly, seem to want to continue trading on your RPG reputation as you drift further and further away from actual RPGs into "hybrids" due to the supposed death of "real genres," and you appear to be doing it by simply moving the goalposts and claiming that as long as an action game has a storyline and a dialogue wheel, it's an RPG. 

Will DA2 turn out to be God of War with a dialogue wheel?  I dunno.  I hope not, but I think there's a decent chance.  If it does, you'd have a much better chance of getting me to buy it by informing me that it's one of the new era of RPG-optional Bioware RPGs rather than attempting to convince me that I'll be getting the deep, engaging RPG mechanic ice cream that Bioware made its reputation on, only to have me discover you actually delivered the action game coconut cream pie.  

Modifié par Khavos, 20 juillet 2010 - 04:14 .


#933
Riona45

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In Exile wrote...


Though I like seeing the reaction to DA2 in light of DA even more. Origins are now crucial gameplay features that enhance roleplaying instead of restrictive chains that prevent us from having the character we want. The game has betrayed it roots by appealing to the mass crowds with their Marilyn Manson video and all the pointless blood and gore; now the game was designed and never marketed to the masses, and only now does Bioware dare to do this. And so on. 


Yeah, DA:O was a niche title that is now being "dumbed down" and "mainstreamed."  Yet, it was also BioWare's best-selling game ever (thanks to being purchased by the aforementioned "masses"), so why change it?

#934
Davasar

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AlanC9 wrote...

But as a special courtesy to you, I'll make sure to give your future points a full evaluation. Though I don't really expect any; your recent posts have shown a certain.... beaten quality.


Ad homenim.  Labelling it negatively does not invalidate.

AlanC9 wrote...
And I'll absolutely sign on for your "don't like it, don't buy it" position. As opposed to your different audience point, which isn't supported by anything except that a few fans don't like some of the proposed changes and typically don't like consoles either.


The fans react to what Bioware has confirmed, and you think it has no basis.  Sorry, if for instance someone feels the game is a deal breaker because they cant choose their race then their opinion is not invalidated just because you say it is.

That is their opinion and it is substantiated by Biowares information. 

You think the game will be good (based off hope) and they will not like the game because they cant choose race (based off fact).

Neither of these things prove the game is good or bad.  It proves the game isnt for everyone, and isnt targeted to the very loyal segment of the audience that it once was.

And yes, my position remains:

If Bioware isnt targeting you for games anymore, dont buy them.

Modifié par Davasar, 20 juillet 2010 - 04:29 .


#935
Khavos

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Riona45 wrote...

Yeah, DA:O was a niche title that is now being "dumbed down" and "mainstreamed."  Yet, it was also BioWare's best-selling game ever (thanks to being purchased by the aforementioned "masses"), so why change it?


Because genres are, like, totally dead, man. 

Just be glad they haven't noticed that GTAIV sold well, or else you'd be able to hijack horses and run down wenches on them. 

#936
Riona45

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Khavos wrote...

Just be glad they haven't noticed that GTAIV sold well, or else you'd be able to hijack horses and run down wenches on them. 


You don't think that's "reaching" a bit?

#937
Khavos

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Riona45 wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Just be glad they haven't noticed that GTAIV sold well, or else you'd be able to hijack horses and run down wenches on them. 


You don't think that's "reaching" a bit?


Nope.  Why would it be? 

#938
mrmike_1949

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Davasar wrote...

However; with all the smoke and mirrors going on, whether intended or not the question still remains.

Why?

DOA was extremely successful. Commercially and critically so and among gamers as well.

So why change the basic fundamentals that made the game so successful and risk driving away the audience you had targeted for this product...?

Unless you purposefully did not want to target that audience anymore. It's simple. Improve the existing feaures of the current game, add some new stuff and stories, etc...

This GUARENTEES you keep that base audience you built.

You start making base changes, and you alienate them because you are not making the game for that audience anymore.

This simple logic is what has so many people mad (even if they did not articulate it well), they feel they are not being targeted as an audience anymore despite their loyalty to Bioware.

Just thought I would explain it to those who dont understand or just use argument ad hominem (abusive) of "whining" about people voicing their opinion.


EA wants to target button thumpers more than pc players of RPGs:(

#939
mrmike_1949

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Stanley Woo wrote...

I dunno. A lot of what was different between Mass 1 and Mass 2 was in response to some of the criticisms we got in the forums and elsewhere. People thought parts of the game were too slow and unwieldy, combat could have been improved, and the pace of the game was generally stop-and-start. So we changed things and, despite initial reticence by the community, Mass Effect 2 is one of BioWare's (and EA's) great successes. If we can achieve similar success (both critically and commercially) with Dragon Age 2, i will be a very happy camper. "Streamlined" or not, whatever you want to call it, if it makes for a better game experience, I'm all for it.


That was Biowares mistake with ME2 : instead of minor tweaks and improvements, it was wholesale changes, so as to make the game almost unrelated

#940
Roland Aseph

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If I can "pause" the game and give tactical commands to my group collectively and individually, and the ability to "choose" their development and progression from a variety of paths.



Then that will fulfill what I look for in a Bioware RPG.



If that's the case I'll be happy with that part of the game mechanics.



The graphics...well that's a whole different can of worms ;)

#941
FieryDove

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mrmike_1949 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I dunno. A lot of what was different between Mass 1 and Mass 2 was in response to some of the criticisms we got in the forums and elsewhere. People thought parts of the game were too slow and unwieldy, combat could have been improved, and the pace of the game was generally stop-and-start. So we changed things and, despite initial reticence by the community, Mass Effect 2 is one of BioWare's (and EA's) great successes. If we can achieve similar success (both critically and commercially) with Dragon Age 2, i will be a very happy camper. "Streamlined" or not, whatever you want to call it, if it makes for a better game experience, I'm all for it.


That was Biowares mistake with ME2 : instead of minor tweaks and improvements, it was wholesale changes, so as to make the game almost unrelated


Agreed...They won't fool me with #3 with any amount of hype or PR speak.

#942
CybAnt1

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 It's interesting to see some of the things that mean "role-playing game" to players of CRPG's.


Well, it's interesting. If you've watched the evolution of the genre I have, you'd find interesting examples of change. 

All the earliest CRPGs were turn-based. There are still hardcore CRPGers who hated the Infinity Engine for abandoning turn-based gaming for real-time with pause (which has become the standard ever since). The last game to try and keep the turn-based gaming system alive was Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil (TOEE) in 2003. 

There are a few turn-based strategy games still around, like (the new) King's Bounty and Heroes of Might & Magic series, but they're still pretty rare too. The fact is, turn-based had to go because everyone hates it in multiplayer mode, and it's just too slooooooow for modern gamers. 

What's odd is the CRPG genre in the 80s established itself with a gaming convention that was completely contrary to the way most people played Pen n Paper RPGs: player control of a party of characters. (Although I do know some people who will play their own character and the character of a friend at the same time at a tabletop session, and there are other DMs who will play with 2-3 players who they each let control several characters.) It's something I've become attached to, and it's why I honestly don't like either MMOs or the "sandbox" CRPGs where I control one and only one character. (I got dragged into playing WoW by friends and it has its charms, but honestly I think after Cataclysm I'll probably swear off it & all other MMOs.) There's a certain tactical aspect to me controlling an entire party, and thinking about how to synergize their abilities & proficiencies, that I really enjoy. 

The fact is, you can't really say story, dialogue, and "choices and consequences" defined the early CRPG genre, because they didn't. The early stuff was very hack-n-slash heavy, it's just that it was all turn-based instead of real-time. The "classics" of the 80s like Ultima, Wizardry, Might & Magic, and Bards' Tale were never very heavy on it. Bioware and Black Isle Studios can take credit for making such things a core part of the Infinity Engine games in the 90s. However, I think people have now become used to such things as defining the genre now. 

I would say to me, now, at this point, yes, dialogue, story, engaging characters with personalities are important, but I still also think some of the "gearhead" stuff people would throw out (stats-mechanics-character progression) are as well, because they're so important in PnP RPGs. I still think a dividing line is if the game uses your character's skills to determine success, it's an RPG; if it relies on the player's skills of manual dexterity and hand-eye coordination, it's an action game. If it's somewhere in between, it's the infamous "hybrid/action-rpg". 

Who knows. Sometime in the future, you'll be able to speak into a microphone what you want to say, and watch the characters on screen react to it. That would be even better than choosing from a bunch of pre-written dialogue options written for you by the writers. However, that would require parsing and AI capabilities way beyond what computer programmers can do now. You'll hold a wii-type motion controller in your hands, and move your arms to swing your sword or position your shield, or maybe cast a spell. Then the games will really feel "first person". 

Party control? You'll simply yell out your orders. "Alistair, go knock over the hurlock with a shield bash". "Anders, throw a mana clash spell on the emissary". "Oghren, protect Wynne from any attackers." And they'll do it. Without any additional micromanaging. 

Boy, wouldn't it be cool to see it someday? I hope the technology to do it will exist at some point in the future. That's how I'd love to be able to play a CRPG. 

#943
Arttis

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Khavos wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Just be glad they haven't noticed that GTAIV sold well, or else you'd be able to hijack horses and run down wenches on them. 


You don't think that's "reaching" a bit?


Nope.  Why would it be? 

Would love hawke to do those things as he rises to power....not like every important figure did not do a bunch of evil things.....

#944
Eludajae

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Jallard wrote...

I am playing ME2 for the first time today, because I wanted to see what it was like. As for the art design in DA:O I think it surpasses ME2. The characters look more real than in ME2. ME2's characters, the humans at least, seem deformed and distorted. I would much prefer seeing Morrigan or Leliana than the female Shepard or that other chick. What's her name?

In addition, I can see ME2 as a console game, as the action is more intense and resereved for the young whose hand and eye cordination are quicker than say, this old man. Heck, I can barely type fast any more. There is just too much going on in ME2. for me at least.


Need to get a better video card there son. Deformed? Maybe you shouldn't play it on your rectangular flat screen.

I see no point to giving any credit to this post. You went in looking to put down ME2 and did so with both eyes Wide SHUT. 

I did notice you didn't say anything about the UI or the system or combat, so effectively all you could find wrong was your screen and graphics card is substandard and couldn't handle the frame rate. And this is supposed to effect the rest of us how? :devil:

#945
Guest_SirShreK_*

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CybAnt1 wrote...

 It's interesting to see some of the things that mean "role-playing game" to players of CRPG's.


Well, it's interesting. If you've watched the evolution of the genre I have, you'd find interesting examples of change. 

All the earliest CRPGs were turn-based. There are still hardcore CRPGers who hated the Infinity Engine for abandoning turn-based gaming for real-time with pause (which has become the standard ever since). The last game to try and keep the turn-based gaming system alive was Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil (TOEE) in 2003. 

There are a few turn-based strategy games still around, like (the new) King's Bounty and Heroes of Might & Magic series, but they're still pretty rare too. The fact is, turn-based had to go because everyone hates it in multiplayer mode, and it's just too slooooooow for modern gamers. 

What's odd is the CRPG genre in the 80s established itself with a gaming convention that was completely contrary to the way most people played Pen n Paper RPGs: player control of a party of characters. (Although I do know some people who will play their own character and the character of a friend at the same time at a tabletop session, and there are other DMs who will play with 2-3 players who they each let control several characters.) It's something I've become attached to, and it's why I honestly don't like either MMOs or the "sandbox" CRPGs where I control one and only one character. (I got dragged into playing WoW by friends and it has its charms, but honestly I think after Cataclysm I'll probably swear off it & all other MMOs.) There's a certain tactical aspect to me controlling an entire party, and thinking about how to synergize their abilities & proficiencies, that I really enjoy. 

The fact is, you can't really say story, dialogue, and "choices and consequences" defined the early CRPG genre, because they didn't. The early stuff was very hack-n-slash heavy, it's just that it was all turn-based instead of real-time. The "classics" of the 80s like Ultima, Wizardry, Might & Magic, and Bards' Tale were never very heavy on it. Bioware and Black Isle Studios can take credit for making such things a core part of the Infinity Engine games in the 90s. However, I think people have now become used to such things as defining the genre now. 

I would say to me, now, at this point, yes, dialogue, story, engaging characters with personalities are important, but I still also think some of the "gearhead" stuff people would throw out (stats-mechanics-character progression) are as well, because they're so important in PnP RPGs. I still think a dividing line is if the game uses your character's skills to determine success, it's an RPG; if it relies on the player's skills of manual dexterity and hand-eye coordination, it's an action game. If it's somewhere in between, it's the infamous "hybrid/action-rpg". 

Who knows. Sometime in the future, you'll be able to speak into a microphone what you want to say, and watch the characters on screen react to it. That would be even better than choosing from a bunch of pre-written dialogue options written for you by the writers. However, that would require parsing and AI capabilities way beyond what computer programmers can do now. You'll hold a wii-type motion controller in your hands, and move your arms to swing your sword or position your shield, or maybe cast a spell. Then the games will really feel "first person". 

Party control? You'll simply yell out your orders. "Alistair, go knock over the hurlock with a shield bash". "Anders, throw a mana clash spell on the emissary". "Oghren, protect Wynne from any attackers." And they'll do it. Without any additional micromanaging. 

Boy, wouldn't it be cool to see it someday? I hope the technology to do it will exist at some point in the future. That's how I'd love to be able to play a CRPG. 






In that case, perhaps you should try Tom Clancy's End War. Its NOT role-play. But tactical voice direction, YES!

#946
Terror_K

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mrmike_1949 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I dunno. A lot of what was different between Mass 1 and Mass 2 was in response to some of the criticisms we got in the forums and elsewhere. People thought parts of the game were too slow and unwieldy, combat could have been improved, and the pace of the game was generally stop-and-start. So we changed things and, despite initial reticence by the community, Mass Effect 2 is one of BioWare's (and EA's) great successes. If we can achieve similar success (both critically and commercially) with Dragon Age 2, i will be a very happy camper. "Streamlined" or not, whatever you want to call it, if it makes for a better game experience, I'm all for it.


That was Biowares mistake with ME2 : instead of minor tweaks and improvements, it was wholesale changes, so as to make the game almost unrelated


Indeed. And there are a lot of Mass Effect fans who feel that ME2 was a failure in their minds and that it's not a better game experience but instead incredibly dumbed-down and lacking. ME2 may have been a commercial success and a hit with the reviewers, but there are a lot of angry and disappointed fans out there who found it a weak second installment lacking in RPG elements and too removed from the original game, despite all the gradiose claims that Mass Effect was supposed to be a trilogy (Ha! What a laugh that turned out to be!).

And now a BioWare devs is saying they want to replicate that with DA2. Hmmm... not exactly giving me confidence here and making me think that this is anything more than ME2 all over again. But if BioWare really think that by making things shallow and removing depth and complexity is the answer, then go ahead. Just don't expect all your old fans to follow you with your "Fisher Price: My First RPG" mentality.

Modifié par Terror_K, 20 juillet 2010 - 09:02 .


#947
Terror_K

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Stanley Woo wrote...

*snipped*

Seriously, though, I know folks are afraid of change, but regardless of how you think it looks, how about seeing how it plays--you know, because it's a game from a company you say you are/wer a fan of--before walking off in a huff and taking your ball with you?


Sorry Stanley... I'm still feeling the burn too much from Mass Effect 2 to have a lot of faith in you guys at the moment, and the parallels between that and DA2 are just too similar for my tastes.

I'm not giving up entirely, but forgive me if I'm extremely sceptical here. Besides... if you're right and I'm wrong, then I'll be pleasantly surprised, won't I?

#948
SithLordExarKun

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Terror_K wrote...

*snips*

  Good lord, still bashing a game that came out months ago and this time in the Dragon age 2 forums? Wow, what a manianical vendetta you got.

Yes, i don't like the fact that we only get to play Hawke, a pre-defined character, that he/she is human, that he/she is voiced and that they have the conversation wheel, but i fail to see how this game will end up to be like ME2 which even i agree that was mostly combat oriented. 

Hell they even mentioned that combat on the pc is largely unchanged and would most likely be the same as DAO, other than these concerns, i don't think they are "dumbing" down this game.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 20 juillet 2010 - 09:37 .


#949
DaringMoosejaw

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Terror_K wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

*snipped*

Seriously, though, I know folks are afraid of change, but regardless of how you think it looks, how about seeing how it plays--you know, because it's a game from a company you say you are/wer a fan of--before walking off in a huff and taking your ball with you?


Sorry Stanley... I'm still feeling the burn too much from Mass Effect 2 to have a lot of faith in you guys at the moment, and the parallels between that and DA2 are just too similar for my tastes.

I'm not giving up entirely, but forgive me if I'm extremely sceptical here. Besides... if you're right and I'm wrong, then I'll be pleasantly surprised, won't I?


Je-sus Christ. If it weren't for the fact I come here for news, I would heartily suggest everyone avoid the forums if they wantactually have fun while playing games. People seemingly only come here to complain, and that will never change no matter what you do. Appease people who complain, and you'll anger an entirely different group. Better to just make your game the way you want it.

Modifié par DaringMoosejaw, 20 juillet 2010 - 09:48 .


#950
soteria

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Ad homenim. Labelling it negatively does not invalidate.


Err... "ad homenim" means a personal attack on your character to discredit your claims. He just said you hadn't been posting anything worth responding to, which is an entirely different matter.