1230 réponses à ce sujet

[oenis]

RageGT wrote...

Again, I have no problem with Bioware releasing The Shepa Hawke Saga... just don't name it DA2 since it will be more different than DA:O than a sequel might.

Crucial differences have already been announced. It doesn't matter if it will be a great game. It will not be a sequel to the original.

When the Warcraft series changed from Real Time Strategy (which I'm a big fan and still play it) to MMORPG (which I never played but for 1 day of the 10 free days I was given), at least Blizzard never tried to sell it as Warcraft 4! (To stay with one expample only.. there are more.. many more)

This person is a genius. 

Side note: The six origins actually have MASSIVE replay value. Not only do you have a different beginning, your end is also very different from others. Also, there is a campaign aimed at each one with more in-depth and character directed interaction. (ie. rescuing the tower for mages, orzammar for dwarves), based not on just race but stature.
DO NOT disregard the Origins; they were masterpieces of story telling and immersion, and I'm sure cost BW alot to produce.

[NKKKK]

all I'm hearing here is BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

[jennamarae]

NKKKK wrote...

all I'm hearing here is BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Perhaps you should see a doctor about that.

[oenis]

NKKKK wrote...

all I'm hearing here is BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Maybe that is because you can't read and live on a farm with sheep?

[SirOccam]

jennamarae wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

In all likelihood, Hawke will have his own "first hour," even if it's not technically an Origin origin. I'm pretty confident that there'll be many opportunities to distinguish your Hawke from another Hawke. He will have his own motivations, chosen by you of course, that will be the foundation for the rest of the adventure, just like in DAO.

Remember, we know absolutely nothing about Hawke except a few things like his race and the fact that he left Lothering. None of that says anything about his personality. Neither have we been told that his personality will be set in stone. I find it highly unlikely that they would do such a thing.

It was the origins themselves that got me hooked to DAO. Knowing those are gone means I can be fairly certain that if I end up buying DA2 I'll play it all the way through two, maybe three, times and be bored of it just like I am the other 20 games collecting dust on my shelf right now. Having only one race makes me seriously doubt Hawke will have his own "first hour", and even if he does it will likely have the same amount of differences per playthrough that I get out of the human noble origin and will likely feel no different from the rest of the game. DA2 may turn out to be an awesome game, there isn't enough info out to determine that one way or another yet. That won't change the fact that one of the features I love the most about Origins isn't going to be in it, and yes I do feel a bit disappointed about that since that's what got me hooked.

Well it's only logical that Hawke needs to be introduced somehow, and I doubt it's going to be a window that pops up with text saying "This is Hawke. He likes a, b, and c, dislikes d, e, and f, and is motivated by x, y, and z. Enjoy."

Having one race I think only strengthens the likelihood that there will be a bunch of options. Now instead of being 1/6th of the starting options, it's every starting point. A lot more focus is going to be placed on it. There are a million possibilities surrounding Hawke's leaving Lothering. He could be young, inexperienced, and frightened. He might actually be chasing someone. He might be trying to protect someone. He might try to be heroic. He might just be out for his own survival above anyone else's. He might try to profit from the chaos somehow. And so on and so forth.

Hawke is basically a blank slate at this point. Now it's possible they might fill in that blank slate all on their own and give us no options, but don't you think it's more likely they'll leave that for us?

[NKKKK]

oenis wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

all I'm hearing here is BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

OH NO, they're making a sequel to a game where we won't be playing as our characters anymore and I'm angry about it. I'm gonna go listen to linkin park

I'm sorry you feel that way

[Davasar]

17thknight wrote...

It is not diminshed slightly, it is diminshed significantly. That isn't based on "hysteria". That is based solely on what Bioware and Chris have confirmed for us.

The customization is drastically reduced from many RPG's, but in comparison to Origins it is practically nonexistant. It is not "rhetoric" to say you are shackled ot Hawke, because you are. Just as Commander Shepard is forced upon the player, so too is Hawke forced upon the player.

Customization should never move backwards, only forwards, and this was one of the elements of Mass Effect 2 that people truly disliked, even fans of the game such as myself. You will never be applauded for stripping down a game's customizability, particularly when that was the original selling point of Dragon Age.

What he said. 

[Davasar]

oenis wrote...

Side note: The six origins actually have MASSIVE replay value. Not only do you have a different beginning, your end is also very different from others. Also, there is a campaign aimed at each one with more in-depth and character directed interaction. (ie. rescuing the tower for mages, orzammar for dwarves), based not on just race but stature.
DO NOT disregard the Origins; they were masterpieces of story telling and immersion, and I'm sure cost BW alot to produce.

And this.

[oenis]

NKKKK wrote...

oenis wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

all I'm hearing here is BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

OH NO, they're making a sequel to a game where we won't be playing as our characters anymore and I'm angry about it. I'm gonna go listen to linkin park

I'm sorry you feel that way

Yeah, I wrote nothing similar to that. Your attempts to disregard my valid points are immature. 

[NKKKK]

oenis wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

oenis wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

all I'm hearing here is BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

OH NO, they're making a sequel to a game where we won't be playing as our characters anymore and I'm angry about it. I'm gonna go listen to linkin park

I'm sorry you feel that way

Yeah, I wrote nothing similar to that. Your attempts to disregard my valid points are immature. 

I wasn't really gonna do anything, but you whiners annoy me

[Davasar]

17thknight wrote...

The fault does not lie with us for judging the scant details, the fault lies with Bioware for releasing only scant details. Of course the fans are going to react to details about the game, especially when they specifically suggest a drastic departure from the original game, which they loved.We are responding to what wea are shown. If the picture is incomplete, that is the fault of those releasing incomplete information.

Since Dragon Age was billed as "The Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate" (can we all count the 10,000 times we heard that phrase?) and it is being moved in a direction away from Baldur's Gate, why should we, the fans who purchased this game specifically for this reason, not be grossly disappointed with what we have learned about DA2 so far?

Yes, ME and DA2 are different games, but the similarities that we dislike between Mass Effect and Dragon Age are the similarities that we already know exist.  This is not information we are inferring, nor is it information that you have implied, this is information that Bioware has confirmed.  The problem is that Dragon Age was meant to take us back to old-school rpg's, not emulate modern rpgs.

Baldur's Gate 2 did not drastically deviate from Baldur's Gate, it merely improved on it. More options, better writing, a stronger plot. Yes, the storytelling grew exponentially from BG1 to BG2 but so did the customization. No race, name, character class, etc. was forced upon the player by the sequel. Expanding one element of the game does not mean that you must necessarily shrink the other.

The single most unique element of Dragon Age was the Origin stories. It immersed you into the character in a way that very very few RPG's have ever come close to realizing. Of course we're going to be disappointed when that is not only not expanded upon, but completely eliminated.  I'm sure anyone could forgive the lack of customization if they were playing as their original character,  it would even be understandable.  As that is obviously not the case, we are understandably upset that we have lost  both our original character and story as well as the ability to create a new character and story.  Instead, we are shackled to Bioware's  character "Hawke", whether we like it or not.

Yes, we are only reacting to some information about the game, not the game as a whole, but that is wholly irrelevant. The bits of info we have are  what we do not like. If there is an extensive amount of character customization, then we aren't being told about it, and we aren't seeing it. You absolutely cannot fault us for reacting negatively to the information you have given us. It paints a specific picture that has yet to be empirically refuted.

We want to customize our character. It is really that simple.

This too.

[oenis]

NKKKK wrote...

oenis wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

oenis wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

all I'm hearing here is BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

OH NO, they're making a sequel to a game where we won't be playing as our characters anymore and I'm angry about it. I'm gonna go listen to linkin park

I'm sorry you feel that way

Yeah, I wrote nothing similar to that. Your attempts to disregard my valid points are immature. 

I wasn't really gonna do anything, but you whiners annoy me

Right, because highlighting the replay value of origins is whining ... well, now your incessant comments have becoming whining about the 'whiners'. 

[jennamarae]

SirOccam wrote...

Well it's only logical that Hawke needs to be introduced somehow, and I doubt it's going to be a window that pops up with text saying "This is Hawke. He likes a, b, and c, dislikes d, e, and f, and is motivated by x, y, and z. Enjoy."

That wouldn't be much different than ME really. Your intro to Shepard is your character staring out a window while a VO tells you that he/she has been chosen to be the humans candidate for Spectre, and... well, that's it. Everything from that point forward is the same for me every single time.

Having one race I think only strengthens the likelihood that there will be a bunch of options. Now instead of being 1/6th of the starting options, it's every starting point. A lot more focus is going to be placed on it. There are a million possibilities surrounding Hawke's leaving Lothering. He could be young, inexperienced, and frightened. He might actually be chasing someone. He might be trying to protect someone. He might try to be heroic. He might just be out for his own survival above anyone else's. He might try to profit from the chaos somehow. And so on and so forth.

Not necessarily, and you won't necessarily see any of that. Shepard can only be one race, you pick a few options, and you get the VO but see/do nothing to give your character any sort of motivation to behave in any specific way. In DAO my mage might be insitutionalized and love the Circle and the Chantry, or she might hate the organizations she sees as keeping her basically in prison. She might help her friend just because he asked her to, or she might believe what he's doing is wrong and refuse until forced. Those decisions will affect how she reacts when she runs into him again and how she reacts when she returns to the Circle and sees what's happened to it. With Shepard, she's a war hero from a battle I've never seen and don't really care about, or she's a sole survivor who grew up alone and I don't really care because I didn't see any of it. With my DAO characters, I care. With Shepard, I don't. Solely because I see what has happened to my DAO characters and with Shepard I don't. It may not make a difference for anyone else, but it does make a difference for me.

Hawke is basically a blank slate at this point. Now it's possible they might fill in that blank slate all on their own and give us no options, but don't you think it's more likely they'll leave that for us?

Judging by ME? Nope. I would absolutely love to be wrong about that though. I love DAO, it's by far the best game I've ever played and nothing would make me sadder than for me to hate the sequel. I hope it turns out to be great. I hope the few changes they've announced so far don't turn out as disappointing as I fear they might. I really do. I'm just not getting my hopes up with so few details announced. I'd rather be surprised later on when more details are announced than be disappointed.

[Davasar]

However; with all the smoke and mirrors going on, whether intended or not the question still remains.

Why?

DOA was extremely successful. Commercially and critically so and among gamers as well.

So why change the basic fundamentals that made the game so successful and risk driving away the audience you had targeted for this product...?

Unless you purposefully did not want to target that audience anymore. It's simple. Improve the existing feaures of the current game, add some new stuff and stories, etc...

This GUARENTEES you keep that base audience you built.

You start making base changes, and you alienate them because you are not making the game for that audience anymore.

This simple logic is what has so many people mad (even if they did not articulate it well), they feel they are not being targeted as an audience anymore despite their loyalty to Bioware.

Just thought I would explain it to those who dont understand or just use argument ad hominem (abusive) of "whining" about people voicing their opinion.

Modifié par Davasar, 12 juillet 2010 - 05:56 .

[NKKKK]

Your using big words to try to impress daddy! He must be proud

[SirOccam]

jennamarae wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Well it's only logical that Hawke needs to be introduced somehow, and I doubt it's going to be a window that pops up with text saying "This is Hawke. He likes a, b, and c, dislikes d, e, and f, and is motivated by x, y, and z. Enjoy."

That wouldn't be much different than ME really. Your intro to Shepard is your character staring out a window while a VO tells you that he/she has been chosen to be the humans candidate for Spectre, and... well, that's it. Everything from that point forward is the same for me every single time.

I agree. But ME is made by a completely different team, with completely different writers.

Having one race I think only strengthens the likelihood that there will be a bunch of options. Now instead of being 1/6th of the starting options, it's every starting point. A lot more focus is going to be placed on it. There are a million possibilities surrounding Hawke's leaving Lothering. He could be young, inexperienced, and frightened. He might actually be chasing someone. He might be trying to protect someone. He might try to be heroic. He might just be out for his own survival above anyone else's. He might try to profit from the chaos somehow. And so on and so forth.

Not necessarily, and you won't necessarily see any of that. Shepard can only be one race, you pick a few options, and you get the VO but see/do nothing to give your character any sort of motivation to behave in any specific way. In DAO my mage might be insitutionalized and love the Circle and the Chantry, or she might hate the organizations she sees as keeping her basically in prison. She might help her friend just because he asked her to, or she might believe what he's doing is wrong and refuse until forced. Those decisions will affect how she reacts when she runs into him again and how she reacts when she returns to the Circle and sees what's happened to it. With Shepard, she's a war hero from a battle I've never seen and don't really care about, or she's a sole survivor who grew up alone and I don't really care because I didn't see any of it. With my DAO characters, I care. With Shepard, I don't. Solely because I see what has happened to my DAO characters and with Shepard I don't. It may not make a difference for anyone else, but it does make a difference for me.

Again, you're right. In ME you have few options, in DAO you have lots. The team that made DAO is making DA2. The team that made ME is not. So which way do you think it's likely to go?

Hawke is basically a blank slate at this point. Now it's possible they might fill in that blank slate all on their own and give us no options, but don't you think it's more likely they'll leave that for us?

Judging by ME? Nope. I would absolutely love to be wrong about that though. I love DAO, it's by far the best game I've ever played and nothing would make me sadder than for me to hate the sequel. I hope it turns out to be great. I hope the few changes they've announced so far don't turn out as disappointing as I fear they might. I really do. I'm just not getting my hopes up with so few details announced. I'd rather be surprised later on when more details are announced than be disappointed.

Why judge it by ME? Because the dialogue wheel will look similar? Because there'll be a voice? What do those things have to do with the storyline? A lot of people are saying DA2 = ME, but that doesn't make it true. They might share a couple of characteristics, but that doesn't make them the same game.

[17thknight]

oenis wrote...
Right, because highlighting the replay value of origins is whining ... well, now your incessant comments have becoming whining about the 'whiners'. 

Just report him for harassment. His posts have long since ceased to be anything other than that.

[oenis]

^I reported him for basically suggesting all of us posting should be killed, it seems a little extreme

[asaiasai]

17thknight wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I would suggest that you wait to hear exactly what our approach is before trying to figure out whether it's what you're interested in or not.

People appear to be acting as if the scant details we've revealed are all they'll ever learn about the game ever, and they're thus required to render judgment immediately.

You're really not. You might, in fact, want to see exactly how we're implementing these features you dislike and seeing for yourself whether they differ from, say, Mass Effect's. There are similarities, of course, but there are also differences... and to assume you know everything about how the game is going to feel based off the most cursory of information is just going to make you look foolish.

Perhaps in the end DA2 won't be for you after all. That's fair. You should be able to judge prior to actually playing it-- there will be information galore available prior to its release, I'm sure. But if you want to have questions asking the "why" regarding our approach taken seriously, it might be sensible to wait and see what that approach is first.

The fault does not lie with us for judging the scant details, the fault lies with Bioware for releasing only scant details. Of course the fans are going to react to details about the game, especially when they specifically suggest a drastic departure from the original game, which they loved.We are responding to what wea are shown. If the picture is incomplete, that is the fault of those releasing incomplete information.

Since Dragon Age was billed as "The Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate" (can we all count the 10,000 times we heard that phrase?) and it is being moved in a direction away from Baldur's Gate, why should we, the fans who purchased this game specifically for this reason, not be grossly disappointed with what we have learned about DA2 so far?

Yes, ME and DA2 are different games, but the similarities that we dislike between Mass Effect and Dragon Age are the similarities that we already know exist.  This is not information we are inferring, nor is it information that you have implied, this is information that Bioware has confirmed.  The problem is that Dragon Age was meant to take us back to old-school rpg's, not emulate modern rpgs.

Baldur's Gate 2 did not drastically deviate from Baldur's Gate, it merely improved on it. More options, better writing, a stronger plot. Yes, the storytelling grew exponentially from BG1 to BG2 but so did the customization. No race, name, character class, etc. was forced upon the player by the sequel. Expanding one element of the game does not mean that you must necessarily shrink the other.

The single most unique element of Dragon Age was the Origin stories. It immersed you into the character in a way that very very few RPG's have ever come close to realizing. Of course we're going to be disappointed when that is not only not expanded upon, but completely eliminated.  I'm sure anyone could forgive the lack of customization if they were playing as their original character,  it would even be understandable.  As that is obviously not the case, we are understandably upset that we have lost  both our original character and story as well as the ability to create a new character and story.  Instead, we are shackled to Bioware's  character "Hawke", whether we like it or not.

Yes, we are only reacting to some information about the game, not the game as a whole, but that is wholly irrelevant. The bits of info we have are  what we do not like. If there is an extensive amount of character customization, then we aren't being told about it, and we aren't seeing it. You absolutely cannot fault us for reacting negatively to the information you have given us. It paints a specific picture that has yet to be empirically refuted.

We want to customize our character. It is really that simple.

That for me is the cruxt of the issue. To be honest i am spoiled to the point that to jump into any game and be strapped to static character with little or no ability to customize the appearance of the character is becomming more and more a giant turn off concerning a game. In Saints Row 2 and DAO i was able to play a character of my design and this had no effect on either story except for minor dialog changes concerning he/she. The ability to create a custom character is an option that i am becomming more and more attached to. When i bought my GTX 480 a few weeks ago a Just Cause 2 down load from Steam was a free perk for buying the card. I installed the game played for a few hours and while the game looks good, plays well, and seems it could be entertaining, i can not get past the fact that i am playing someone else's character. Rico belongs to the developer not me and it seems a simple thing often overlooked to allow the player to create a character of thier own design. 

Now we get to the heart of the issue. I am not so sure if Mr. Gaider understands the real point of contention. See the issue i have will the ME series is that while Shepard is customizable, who Shepard is, is not. So while i get to customize my Shepard's appearance, i can not create my Shepard's personality. Shepard's personality is already provided and the player is given very little ability to decide who they want thier Shepard to be. The MAJOR difference between DAO and the ME series is that the warden is MY warden. By providing me the ability to interject my personality into the warden, by proxy this allows me to interject myself into the world. This for me is the MOST IMPORTANT idea that i feel needs to be preserved in DA2. I could care less if i get to play my warden again in DA2, I could care less if the decisions my warden made were cannonized in DA2 since the game will not involve the wardens at all.

What i will have a problem with is the lack of the perception of freedom that was the IMHO greatest thing about DAO. I was not provided any story but that which i created. I am not interested in playing ME in the DAO world. I am not interested in playing Mr. Gaider's "Hawke". I am not interested in playing a linear campaign similar to the ME series. I could care less about dialog wheels, dynamic combat, graphics quality, voice overs, or any other distractions used to cover up the fact that this character is already provided by the writer with a laundry list faults and flaws. I can say whole heartedly that I want the depth of character that I had in DAO, but I do not want Mr. Gaider to provide it, all i want is the opportunity to as my character and I journey through the world to develop my character as we progress. I want a smorgasboard of opportunities to define who we are at the moment, gay straight, mean nice, compassionate ambivilent, and the ability to decide what i want my character to be, this is what true immersion in a game world is. 

I am really interested only in whether you folks at Bioware have stayed true to this idea. How you designed the GUI is of little importance to me. The nigling details are of little consequence to me if this is the "spiritual successor" part that you are reffering to. So Mr. Gaider if you are willing to say that you have remained true to this idea, i am willing to say sold to the man named Asai.

Asai 

[Tooneyman]

I've got one thing and one thing to say to make everyones fears get up or down real quick. Give me that stupid game informer article damnit!

[AlanC9]

Davasar wrote...


Unless you purposefully did not want to target that audience anymore. It's simple. Improve the existing feaures of the current game, add some new stuff and stories, etc...

This GUARENTEES you keep that base audience you built.

You start making base changes, and you alienate them because you are not making the game for that audience anymore.

This simple logic is what has so many people mad (even if they did not articulate it well), they feel they are not being targeted as an audience anymore despite their loyalty to Bioware.

Just thought I would explain it to those who dont understand or just use argument ad hominem (abusive) of "whining" about people voicing their opinion.

Oh, people understand you, all right. They just think you're wrong.

BG1 was something of an open-world game; not quite a Bethesda game, but not too far from it. Bio completely threw out that aspect of the game for BG2 and went with discontinuous areas and plot-related travel, a system they use to this day. Folks who thought that world exploration was the best part, the important part, of BG1 were bitterly disappointed. Some of them went away. 

It didn't matter. The new system made BG2 better. Bio's job is to make DA2 as good as they can, not to satisfy every last DAO player by giving them more of the same.

[NKKKK]

AlanC9 wrote...

Davasar wrote...


Unless you purposefully did not want to target that audience anymore. It's simple. Improve the existing feaures of the current game, add some new stuff and stories, etc...

This GUARENTEES you keep that base audience you built.

You start making base changes, and you alienate them because you are not making the game for that audience anymore.

This simple logic is what has so many people mad (even if they did not articulate it well), they feel they are not being targeted as an audience anymore despite their loyalty to Bioware.

Just thought I would explain it to those who dont understand or just use argument ad hominem (abusive) of "whining" about people voicing their opinion.

Bio's job is to make DA2 as good as they can, not to satisfy every last DAO player by giving them more of the same.

This in a nutshell

[DragonRageGT]

NKKKK wrote...

Your using big words to try to impress daddy! He must be proud

And you, my friend, is just trolling... you no more a fan of Bioware than I am. I'm sure of it. I've been playing their game and loving it since 1998 with Baldur's Gate.

And I like Mass Effect for what it is but I hate seeing the Mass Effectization of Dragon Age which is supposed to be "The Spiritual Successor of Baldur's Gate" while DA2 promises to be nothing of the sort but Shepard with a sword.

[Davasar]

So ignore basic marketing: Know your target audience. Which I think they do, and have dumped.



When I see evidence to the contrary, I will retract my statement..

[DragonRageGT]

SirOccam wrote...
Why judge it by ME? Because the dialogue wheel will look similar? Because there'll be a voice? What do those things have to do with the storyline? A lot of people are saying DA2 = ME, but that doesn't make it true. They might share a couple of characteristics, but that doesn't make them the same game.

But those shared couple of characteristics are exactly what I would never want to see in Dragon Age... perhaps in ME3, sure, but never in Dragon Age.