1230 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
But if you want depth in the gameplay, which is something that DA:O really had, then you need to look at games like RTSs and consider the combat that takes place there, because RPGs have far more in common with those games than they ever did with Action games or Shooters. Pull a few individual units out of an RTS system and develop them more deeply and then let the player control only those instead of having the player build and manage an army. That is true, deep and entertaining RPG gameplay. And it is decidedly not ME or ME2.

I'm not sure it's DAO either.

In DA:O you have a group of four units with ability progression directed by you and that are moved across a map by mouse clicks, who's actions are qeued up by mouse clicks and whos stories are developed deeper than in most any other kind of game. I'd say DA:O pulled off that kind of gameplay fairly well. And so long as the changes stay within those parameters, so will DA][.

[Terror_K]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
Sorry Stanley... I'm still feeling the burn too much from Mass Effect 2 to have a lot of faith in you guys at the moment, and the parallels between that and DA2 are just too similar for my tastes.

I'm not giving up entirely, but forgive me if I'm extremely sceptical here. Besides... if you're right and I'm wrong, then I'll be pleasantly surprised, won't I?

Oh hey, "extremely skeptical," I can work with. i thought you'd just given up entirely and wanted to keep reminding us how youv've given up, even though we wouldn't concern ourselves with people who had given up anyway. lol

Really, though, there's nothing happenign between BioWare and the fans that says the fans must like everything we do, nor is there anything that says BioWare must make games a certain way. We certainly hope people will always like waht we do, but everything's going to have a bell curve. A whole bunch of people will be okay with it, the extreme positive side will be fanatical regardless of what we do, the extreme negative side will be inconsolable regardless of what we do, and we'll see the same pattern repeat itself when we announce other projects in the future.

As David said, this kind of reaction by the fans is neither new nor unexpected.

Yeah, but while I can accept that as a fan I don't have to like everything you guys do and that not everything will be for me, I'd at least like to think that the sequels to games that I thoroughly enjoy and love still retain and continue that love. Isn't the very point of a sequel to carry on the legacy and style of the previous title? Isn't it therefore supposed to appeal to the fans of the previous title and make them want to play it and like it? Shouldn't it retain a certain style and identity and be largely the same type of game?

I'm not asking you guys make every game a super-deep RPG with thousands of different options... all I want is some consistency between your sequels. Mass Effect 2 disappointed me greatly not so much for what it was, but for what it wasn't: a good sequel that really carried on the legacy of Mass Effect and a good RPG. It was neither of these things, regardless of how good a "game" it was. And I don't want to see the same thing happen with my second-favourite BioWare IP. And this whole "we're making games shallower and proud of it!" attitude that the BioWare staff seem to have lately just isn't very encouraging for me.

Modifié par Terror_K, 20 juillet 2010 - 11:23 .

[AlanC9]

Terror_K wrote...
Isn't the very point of a sequel to carry on the legacy and style of the previous title? Isn't it therefore supposed to appeal to the fans of the previous title and make them want to play it and like it? Shouldn't it retain a certain style and identity and be largely the same type of game?

 "Style" isn't exactly objective, and whether changes amount to a change in style depends largely on how the particular speaker feels about the particular changes. I don't see these changes as being as big a deal as you do.

Anyway, I can think of plenty of game series that changed a lot between numbered installments. Take the Ultima series, for instance. U3 to U4 or U7 to U8 are much bigger changes than anything they're proposing for DA.

[CarlSpackler]

AlanC9 wrote...
Anyway, I can think of plenty of game series that changed a lot between numbered installments. Take the Ultima series, for instance. U3 to U4 or U7 to U8 are much bigger changes than anything they're proposing for DA.

Yeah Richard Garriott insisted that every new Ultima game run on a new engine.  This was part of the reasoning behind naming SerpentIsle U7pII as it ran on the same engine as U7.

[Mecha Tengu]

Khavos wrote...

Mecha Tengu wrote...

I would prefer:
real time twitch action combat
do not remove, simplify, or condense any of the RPG elements, and if possible expand more on them (inventory, class customization)

You know those two are mutually exclusive, right? 

what's so hard about an inventory + action oriented combat?

Fall Out 3's system was amazing

[SithLordExarKun]

Terror_K wrote...

Clovis- wrote...

What crazy world do I live in where people think ME2 was a step down in game design!? God they made that game so good... so deliciously good I just wanna make love to... well, this isnt about Mass Effect

ME2 was generic and shallow gameplay wise. 'Nuff said.

I don't understand why "streamlined" is such a bad thing; in engineering, it generally comes down to a more efficient product. Sure Dragon Age had better character interaction and other features that were unique compared to Mass Effect, but a more streamlined approached to the first game doesnt mean negativity, it means refiinned.

That's all very well, but "steamlining" isn't what BioWare did with ME2: they dumbed it down. Streamlining is when you make an existing aspect as user-friendly and efficient as possible while still retaining its full functionality. The ME2 team just threw out the old elements and replaced them with different ones that didn't do everything the original elements did and were so overly simple they couldn't really fail, which is why they're not as "flawed" (i.e. there aren't as many moving parts that can go wrong). So what we ended up with were systems that technically worked better, but were shallow, linear and didn't do as much as the original ones.

I mean, try to think objectively, as impossible as that may be for a person; was Mass Effect REALLY a better product than Mass Effect 2?

Whether it's a better product is a matter of opinion. ME1 was a better RPG than ME2 was though. One can argue whether the changes were an improvement or not, but the issue as to whether RPG elements were slimmed down and removed is pretty much solid fact.

 This is a Dragon Age 2 forum, you want to continue bashing ME2, go to this thread :
http://social.biowar...index/1472797/1. 


You know, being observant,every single post you put in these forums involve this : "ME2 sucks is generic blah blah blah".

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 21 juillet 2010 - 07:07 .

[Jimmy Fury]

the_one_54321 wrote...
In DA:O you have a group of four units with ability progression directed
by you and that are moved across a map by mouse clicks, who's actions
are qeued up by mouse clicks and whos stories are developed deeper than
in most any other kind of game.

I couldn't resist.... :

In DA:O  ME2 you have a group of four  three units with ability progression directed
by you and that are moved across a map by mouse clicks, who's actions
are queued up chosen by mouse clicks and whos stories are developed deeper than
in most any other kind of game.

You can do all of that in ME2. You can direct where your party goes, decide which attacks they use (not quite a queue but on-the-fly can be more useful in some cases), control how they level up, and go off on some very rich personal missions with them.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 21 juillet 2010 - 02:56 .

[In Exile]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
That is very true. It does, of course, need to be done well. The loyalty missions in ME2 were, mostly, lightyears better than the companion quests in Origins. I found most of them more compelling than the main plot. Unfortunately that  combined with ME2 being afflicted with middle-of-a-trilogy-syndrome (it feels less like it's own story and more like a bridge between the begining and the end) did make the overall plot a bit lackluster.

See, I completely disagree with that. I think ME2 fundamentally fails to be a middle trilogy game. Honestly, it felt more like a redesign of ME from a plot standpoint, because they really re-introduced the reapers more than anything. At least if you had failed to stop reaper slurpee, you could say now there is a dramatic threat in the universe, or if reaper slurpee instead turned out to be a mass relay from darkspace that fired, or anything.

ME had built up the threat to be the reapers, and subtly foreshadowed the geth abandoning them.

Since I haven't heard anyone say DA is slated to be a trilogy, I think some deeper companion quests could fit well so long as they're connected to the main plot in some fashion.

I would hope we reduce companions, too, and have more than one quest. I'm a fan of much smaller groups of heroes that are better developed.

[Jimmy Fury]

In Exile wrote...

See, I completely disagree with that. I think ME2 fundamentally fails to be a middle trilogy game. Honestly, it felt more like a redesign of ME from a plot standpoint, because they really re-introduced the reapers more than anything. At least if you had failed to stop reaper slurpee, you could say now there is a dramatic threat in the universe, or if reaper slurpee instead turned out to be a mass relay from darkspace that fired, or anything.

ME had built up the threat to be the reapers, and subtly foreshadowed the geth abandoning them.

We may just have to agree to disagree on that one to prevent us from getting too off topic. While I do think the main "threat" was underwhelming, everything else in the game was either following up on events in 1 or introducing, i assume, key components for the finale.

I do very much agree that they shouldn't give us some insane number of companions though. I don't think I ever took Jacob, Grunt, Sten, or Oghren into combat unless the system forced me to.
I liked all of the characters (except Jacob, dude just bugged me from the moment I met him... "blah blah blah I'm a biotic!" yeah me too jack*ss now shut up and shoot something.)
I just never had much use for them outside of entertaining conversations. In ME all my heavy-hitting was taken care of by Garrus and Samara. In DAO i had Shale who puts everyone else to shame in terms of tanking and comedic timing.
Of course that's all a matter of personal taste so I can't in good conscience ever ask Bioware to cut down on the tanks just so I can focus on my own personal Amazon attack squad^_^

[In Exile]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
We may just have to agree to disagree on that one to prevent us from getting too off topic.

It would be for the best, I think.

I do very much agree that they shouldn't give us some insane number of companions though. I don't think I ever took Jacob, Grunt, Sten, or Oghren into combat unless the system forced me to.
I liked all of the characters (except Jacob, dude just bugged me from the moment I met him... "blah blah blah I'm a biotic!" yeah me too jack*ss now shut up and shoot something.)
I just never had much use for them outside of entertaining conversations. In ME all my heavy-hitting was taken care of by Garrus and Samara. In DAO i had Shale who puts everyone else to shame in terms of tanking and comedic timing.
Of course that's all a matter of personal taste so I can't in good conscience ever ask Bioware to cut down on the tanks just so I can focus on my own personal Amazon attack squad^_^

I happen to think that +2 to the total party you can take with you is the ideal number. Enough to get some variety... but also enough to develop each character strongly and not make anyone redundant.

[FlyinElk212]

Stanley Woo wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

The number of threads that needed to be locked due to them all having this thread's same subject is a bad sign, devs.

It's a bad sign that people think they're personal opinions are more important than everyone else's. it's a bad sign that people are no longer even making a token effort to scan the existing threads in the first few pages before posting their own. it's a bad sign that forumites believe we don't know what we're doing, and that one lone voice of reason is going to make us change our minds and change the game entirely.

Is more information coming that could possibly swell the tide?

I guess you'll just have to stick around to find out.

According to the "clear in the double digits" amount of locks, a lot of people are already giving up on the game. I'd release new info sooner rather than later.

so people can jump to even more conclusions sooner rather than later? People will come and go as they please. We're going to keep going and hopefully our forumites will find future information releases more to their liking. But I'm not going to promise anything.

...you tease!!!

[FieryDove]

Stanley Woo wrote...

so people can jump to even more conclusions sooner rather than later? People will come and go as they please.

Jumping is FUN!

Stanley Woo wrote...

We're going to keep going and hopefully our forumites will find future information releases more to their liking. But I'm not going to promise anything.

You are hanging around CP too much. Such a cruel tease.

[Terror_K]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

You know, being observant,every single post you put in these forums involve this : "ME2 sucks is generic blah blah blah".

And being observant every single post of yours involves you jumping into topics and either making snide, veiled insults or just being a dick. What's your point?

[SithLordExarKun]

Terror_K wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

You know, being observant,every single post you put in these forums involve this : "ME2 sucks is generic blah blah blah".

And being observant every single post of yours involves you jumping into topics and either making snide, veiled insults or just being a dick. What's your point?

At least i don't jump into every thread crying like a baby about how i think ME2 sucks and how that game ruined my entire life.

By the way, take your crying here http://social.biowar...ndex/1472797/1.

[Terror_K]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

At least i don't jump into every thread crying like a baby about how i think ME2 sucks and how that game ruined my entire life.

By the way, take your crying here http://social.biowar...ndex/1472797/1.

No. I see no reason to listen to the likes of you. Knowing that it irritates you just makes me want to whine more.

[SithLordExarKun]

Terror_K wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

At least i don't jump into every thread crying like a baby about how i think ME2 sucks and how that game ruined my entire life.

By the way, take your crying here http://social.biowar...ndex/1472797/1.

No. I see no reason to listen to the likes of you. Knowing that it irritates you just makes me want to whine more.

So whine more then, and i know it makes your blood boil everytime i interact with the likes of you.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...
I would hope we reduce companions, too, and have more than one quest. I'm a fan of much smaller groups of heroes that are better developed. 

Hmmm..... Don't know if all those blank spaces on the DA2 promo art are supposed to be companions or not yet. I actually doubt that because of the differing sizes. But if they are we're back at BG2 levels.

SLEK, Terror_K... can't we confine that to the "Disappointment" thread? Seriously, guys.

Modifié par AlanC9, 21 juillet 2010 - 06:05 .

[SithLordExarKun]

AlanC9 wrote...

SLEK, Terror_K... can't we confine that to the "Disappointment" thread? Seriously, guys.

Oh sure, but im not the one crying about how ME2 ruined my life along with making me jobless, losing my girlfriend and having financial difficulties in a dragon age 2 thread. 

Thats like going to a doctor to cry about your personal issues when infact you should see a counsellor. Hell and i even showed him the way to the disappointment thread, but of course he claims he "wont listen" and wants to troll.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 21 juillet 2010 - 06:15 .

[AlanC9]

So you did. My eyes had glazed over by that point.

[Terror_K]

AlanC9 wrote...

So you did. My eyes had glazed over by that point.

I get that reading his "posts" too.

[SithLordExarKun]

Terror_K wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

So you did. My eyes had glazed over by that point.

I get that reading his "posts" too.

Yet you keep grabbing the bait

[Terror_K]

SithLordExarKun wrote...
Yet you keep grabbing the bait

And you keep setting it. Which you don't even deny. How have you not been banned from this place considering you purposefully try to start flamewars? <_<

[SithLordExarKun]

Terror_K wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...
Yet you keep grabbing the bait

And you keep setting it. Which you don't even deny. How have you not been banned from this place considering you purposefully try to start flamewars? <_<

Because i don't actually start flamewars? Look back, i was rude yes, but i told you to bring your whining to the correct thread and called you out on your behaviour to "baw ME2" on every single post even in a dragon age thread. 

Then you of course started with the personal attacks trying to call me a "dick".
 Btw, i must applaud you for stating you won't be grabbing the bait yet you constantly reply.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 21 juillet 2010 - 07:07 .

[Terror_K]

SithLordExarKun wrote...
Because i don't actually start flamewars? Look back, i was rude yes, but i told you to bring your whining to the correct thread and called you out on your behaviour to "baw ME2" on every single post even in a dragon age thread.

Which is redundant. I'm already whining in that thread, and you know it.

Then you of course started with the personal attacks trying to call me a "dick".

Naw... mine was just more in-your-face and less subtle.

Btw, i must applaud you for stating you won't be grabbing the bait yet you constantly reply.

I'm just hoping one day it causes a mod to come to their senses and ban you for being an antagonistic troll.

[SithLordExarKun]

Terror_K wrote...
Which is redundant. I'm already whining in that thread, and you know it.

Hence im pointing you in the right direction, and you know it

Terror_K wrote...
Naw... mine was just more in-your-face and less subtle.

Which is also considered flaming or trying to start a flame war. Hypocritical eh?

Terror_K wrote...
 I'm just hoping one day it causes a mod to come to their senses and ban
you for being an antagonistic troll.

. Yes, ban me for pointing you in the right direction. I'm just hoping one day it causes a mod to come to their senses and ban
you for being an antagonistic troll preacher.

But hey, you're likely both insulting me and trying to bait me seeing you lost the last flamewar you started and then felt humiliated when other forum members laughed at you and you lost your e-pride.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 21 juillet 2010 - 07:28 .