1230 réponses à ce sujet

[Massadonious1]

Roland Aseph wrote...
It's ludacris to re-vamp a model and style that sold you millions of copies and created a huge fan base. 

You're right. Moving from D&D based games to Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and DA:O did not work. At all.

[FieryDove]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
EA owned Bioware for 2 years before DAO was released. If they were so intent on dumbing everything down and stealing Bioware's creativity why didn't they start there?

I really don't understand why people find it so impossible to consider that maybe Bioware wanted to make the changes...

You do know how long DA was in development for before EA came into the picture yes? You also know that is was a pc only game until about a year and half before release it was decided to go multi-platform. EA may or may not have suggested it. It's more likely they did since everything they publish they love to do that with but only they and Bio know.

[Davasar]

Well said above, but it's time to face facts:



this isnt the Dragon age game people had hoped for.



To some, it is lacking key components that made the Origins game good.



If that means a no sale or a "wait till it's $10" sale, then that's what will happen.

[FieryDove]

Davasar wrote...

Well said above, but it's time to face facts:
this isnt the Dragon age game people had hoped for.
To some, it is lacking key components that made the Origins game good.
If that means a no sale or a "wait till it's $10" sale, then that's what will happen.

It's not the game *some* people had hoped for...or at least sounding like so far.

I mean there are many kinds of gaming tastes out there, look at all the people that say ME2 is the best game ever and Kotor1 sucked. I disagree strongly but they like what they like and I will like what I like. No need to get hateful or boycott talk with each other or the developers. imho

[Jimmy Fury]

FieryDove wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...
EA owned Bioware for 2 years before DAO was released. If they were so intent on dumbing everything down and stealing Bioware's creativity why didn't they start there?

I really don't understand why people find it so impossible to consider that maybe Bioware wanted to make the changes...

You do know how long DA was in development for before EA came into the picture yes? You also know that is was a pc only game until about a year and half before release it was decided to go multi-platform. EA may or may not have suggested it. It's more likely they did since everything they publish they love to do that with but only they and Bio know.

Yeah I'm aware of how long Origins was in development. I'm also aware of how much of the earlier development was spent just on building the engine. And I'm aware of how long 2 years is in terms of development.
DA2, if we assume development started right after Origins came out and that the announced March 2011 date is accurate, will only have taken 1.25 years to make since the engine is already built. If EA was so dead set on being the big evil corporation that dumbs everything down, 2 years was plenty of time to scrap half of Origins and make them knock out a God of War clone.
That didn't happen. I see no reason to assume EA is going out of it's way to crush BioWare's creativity now.

AlanC9 wrote...
Jimmy, this is getting old. By now we're
all familiar with Davasar's style. I don't really need to see you
nailing him again.

Apologies apologies. I was done with that whole thing anyway.

[AlanC9]

Davasar wrote...

Well said above, but it's time to face facts:

this isnt the Dragon age game people had hoped for.

To some, it is lacking key components that made the Origins game good.

If that means a no sale or a "wait till it's $10" sale, then that's what will happen.

Thanks for the "some" above. But I don't think anyone's been denying that some small percentage of DAO fans won't like DA2. Bio just doesn't think there are enough of them to matter. Neither do I.

[soteria]

You do know how long DA was in development for before EA came into the picture yes? You also know that is was a pc only game until about a year and half before release it was decided to go multi-platform. EA may or may not have suggested it.

KotOR was multiplatform. No doubt EA can be blamed for that, as well... oh, wait.

[Nynaeve]

woah, people sure like bashing developers when all we've been given is scraps of info!

[Riona45]

Faust1979 wrote...
They didn't say every game would take us back to Baulders gate way of playing.

I also think people forget that the "Baldur's Gate way of playing" was hardly perfect and that games have come a long way since then, as they must.  Many of DA:O's gameplay mechanics actually have more in common with newer games.

[AndarianTD]

Riona45 wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...
They didn't say every game would take us back to Baulders gate way of playing.

I also think people forget that the "Baldur's Gate way of playing" was hardly perfect and that games have come a long way since then, as they must.  Many of DA:O's gameplay mechanics actually have more in common with newer games.

Thank you, yes. You can see this with the evolution of Bioware games since BG as well. For example, newer games like NWN2 and DA feature cinematic dialog modes that make it much easier to create scenes with dramatic effect. The staging features in the DA toolset alone are a significant advance in this regard. As a NWN modder I have to do a lot of clumsy scripting to create even a pale and primtive version of this. And that's leaving aside the fact that the BG games weren't even 3D.

I have to say that I still really don't get what these alleged BG-era "RP purists" are after.

AlanC9 wrote...

I don't think anyone's been denying that some small percentage of DAO fans won't like DA2. Bio just doesn't think there are enough of them to matter. Neither do I.

Same here.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 28 juillet 2010 - 05:11 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

AndarianTD wrote...

I have to say that I still really don't get what these alleged BG-era "RP purists" are after.

I can't speak for the rest of them, but I'm after roleplaying.

And scripted cutscenes are antithetical to roleplaying.  Cinematic presentation (as BioWare has been doing it) inhibits roleplaying.  An incoherent setting with inconsistent rules damages roleplaying.

[AlanC9]

What were consistent settings, anyway? And consistent rules?

[CarlSpackler]

AndarianTD wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I don't think anyone's been denying that some small percentage of DAO fans won't like DA2. Bio just doesn't think there are enough of them to matter. Neither do I.

Same here.

While I agree with those statements in the sense of "matter" meaning in such a way as to affect sales of DA2 - I do think are enough of these types of folks that if Bioware (or any other developer) wanted to continue to develop games that these folks enjoyed - there would be enough overlap with the people who already enjoyed DAO to make such a venture profitable.

[Davasar]

If there is a game I don't like, I just don't buy it.

It's not so much a boycott, and more a "not for me" or "not targeted to me" choice.

I mean heck, at least I can be honest and say: sure I'll play the game.

But I won't buy it. I'll just borrow it and play it and maybe get some catharthis out of making Hawke a cowardly, craven weasel.

That way maybe in a future game that is targeted to me I will have a character I can completely define from the ground up that gets to kill Hawke.

Modifié par Davasar, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:25 .

[AlanC9]

CarlSpackler wrote...
While I agree with those statements in the sense of "matter" meaning in such a way as to affect sales of DA2 - I do think are enough of these types of folks that if Bioware (or any other developer) wanted to continue to develop games that these folks enjoyed - there would be enough overlap with the people who already enjoyed DAO to make such a venture profitable.

Sure. I don't think Bio was in any sense compelled to make these changes. Five years from now non-voiced protagonists will be as rare in A-list titles as 2D is now, but that's the future.

[Davasar]

It's rather unfortunate, as I prefer to let my imagination provide the voice. I literally had another poster tell me he is unable to do that and that others might be in the same boat. Some lack the imagination I suppose, so to each their own I guess.

[Davasar]

AlanC9 wrote...

Thanks for the "some" above. But I don't think anyone's been denying that some small percentage of DAO fans won't like DA2. Bio just doesn't think there are enough of them to matter. Neither do I.

Well, Bioware did tell that segment of the customer base that helped them get to their current level of success in a polite fashion to F*** OFF.  So I suppose you are correct.

[AlanC9]

There's no reason someone couldn't make low-end RPGs without PC voices. Those really will be niche products, so it wouldn't be Bioware making them, but it's possible.

[AlanC9]

Davasar wrote...
Well, Bioware did tell that segment of the customer base that helped them get to their current level of success in a polite fashion to F*** OFF.  So I suppose you are correct.

You really should stop all this preposterous overstatement. It's just not convincing.

Bio disappointed a small part of that segment of the customer base that helped them get to their current level of success. Not the whole thing. It's perfectly possible to be a big BG fan and still not mind the direction of DA2.

[Davasar]

AlanC9 wrote...

Davasar wrote...
Well, Bioware did tell that segment of the customer base that helped them get to their current level of success in a polite fashion to F*** OFF.  So I suppose you are correct.

You really should stop all this preposterous overstatement. It's just not convincing.

Bio disappointed a small part of that segment of the customer base that helped them get to their current level of success. Not the whole thing. It's perfectly possible to be a big BG fan and still not mind the direction of DA2.

What you find as preposterous I find as the root truth.  The sort of condescending responses that have been recieved are well documented on these forums, and the inference from the devs is very clear.

I perhaps made it seem stronger then most people are comfortable with, but that is the bottom line of what they are telling people.

"This is how it is, F*** OFF."

Since there is no way to tell if it is a small part or not, and even then it's quite relative, I would say mentioning that a segment was being shunted was quite fair as it does not reflect that whole of DOA fans.

[Davasar]

AlanC9 wrote...

There's no reason someone couldn't make low-end RPGs without PC voices. Those really will be niche products, so it wouldn't be Bioware making them, but it's possible.

Someone could make high end rpgs too that have no need of a voice.  More choices are also possible with no voice because it's cheaper to do then to have the voice actor plug in 6 responses per conversation and be able to control each decision gate (not have a lengthy cut scene you really cant control).

It would be too expensive to voice all those responses.  I would prefer quality and quantity and imagination to set voiced responses and cut scenes.

But meh, like I mentioned:  Bioware told folks like me to F*** OFF.  Like you said, we don't really matter to them.

Modifié par Davasar, 28 juillet 2010 - 07:01 .

[AllThatJazz]

Riona45 wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...
They didn't say every game would take us back to Baulders gate way of playing.

I also think people forget that the "Baldur's Gate way of playing" was hardly perfect and that games have come a long way since then, as they must.  Many of DA:O's gameplay mechanics actually have more in common with newer games.

Agreed. I still shudder when I remember micromanaging my six-person party through tight, cramped corridors filled with traps and kobold archers. That was not a fun challenge, just bloody annoying.

[AndarianTD]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I can't speak for the rest of them, but I'm after roleplaying.

And scripted cutscenes are antithetical to roleplaying.  Cinematic presentation (as BioWare has been doing it) inhibits roleplaying.

I disagree strongly and profoundly with that statement.

I'll try to elaborate on why a bit later when I have more time to write at length. But for now I'll say that it has to do at least partly with an observation I made on another recent thread, that several different and incompatible definitions of "roleplaying" have been circulating among the gaming community for some time. "Sandbox" or "Roll-Playing" style RP may be a different story, but cinematic presentation is fully compatible with role-playing focused on playing a role in an interactive story. In fact that's been the particular focus of my NWN modding work for several years now.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 28 juillet 2010 - 08:08 .

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

AlanC9 wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Well said above, but it's time to face facts:

this isnt the Dragon age game people had hoped for.

To some, it is lacking key components that made the Origins game good.

If that means a no sale or a "wait till it's $10" sale, then that's what will happen.

Thanks for the "some" above. But I don't think anyone's been denying that some small percentage of DAO fans won't like DA2. Bio just doesn't think there are enough of them to matter. Neither do I.

Actually, it may very well be the Dragon Age game I'd hoped for, in many respects.  As I've said before, I doubt that I would put the money or time into DA2 if there weren't some substantive gameplay changes.  The nostalgia of playing a Baldur's Gate rehash was fun for a bit, but there's a reason the games I play and design don't look much like that anymore.

Bottom line is that anyone wanting games to look just like they did 12 years ago is in for some disappointment.  The Fallout diehards, for example, are still grinding their teeth over Fallout 3.  If ME2 is any indication, Bioware is basing some of the changes on feedback.  I think the disaster of the console version of DA:O may be playing into it, too.  Frankly, I'm gratified to see RPG design moving on and trying new things.  I like most of what I see, especially if the storytelling maintains a high quality while gameplay design finds its equilibrium.

[Kenrae]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
And scripted cutscenes are antithetical to roleplaying.  Cinematic presentation (as BioWare has been doing it) inhibits roleplaying.  An incoherent setting with inconsistent rules damages roleplaying.

Bah, d&d rules damage roleplaying, IMO. Specially on the table.