1230 réponses à ce sujet

[angelgaidin]

asaiasai wrote...

Character customization goes much deeper that just red hair or blue eyes, it goes to the very heart and soul of the character, the ability of the player to put themselves in the world as a whole. You can not do that with Shepard, but you can as i have done 19 times so far in DAO.

Asai

Uh, I could do that with Shepard.  Maybe you weren't trying hard enough?

[angelgaidin]

17thknight wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

Jestina wrote...

Because
you are supposed to breath life into those characters. That's what RPG
is. I don't want to follow some writers story about a character in game
versions. If I want to do that, i'll just pick up some REH or
Tolkien.

You do realize that what you just described
"follow(ing) some writers [sic] story about a character" is exactly what
you did in DA:O, right?  In fact, that's exactly what you do in any
video game.  Ever.

That's grossly mistating what DA:O
was, and what it was supposed to feel like.

DA:O was meant to immerse the player in their own story.
And it did.
Mass Effect tells Shepard's story, not yours. You just
watch.

Hell, half the time you don't even know what Shepard is
going to say or do, you just pick the choice in the upper right or lower
left so that you can progress your paragon or renegade meters the right
way

Your post does not invalidate my statement.  Jestina mentioned that she didn't want to follow a writer's story.  This is an impossibility, as everything you can ever possibly do in a video game was written by a writer.

[Jestina]

We had many options in DA:O.

It wasn't a straight shootfest from beginning to end with glitzy cinematics filling up much of the time. That might be your cup of tea, but you've got ME...what RPG fans on here don't want is DA turning into ME.

Modifié par Jestina, 12 juillet 2010 - 07:39 .

[17thknight]

Jestina wrote...

We had many options in DA:O.

It wasn't a straight shootfest from beginning to end with glitzy cinematics filling up much of the time. That might be your cup of tea, but you've got ME...what RPG fans on here don't want is DA turning into ME.

I think we both know it's far too late for that. Our series is dead. I mean, really, they even shoved the awful little dialogue wheel into DA2. It's as Mass-Effected as it could get withiout being in space.

[angelgaidin]

You must be a clairvoyant, because I haven't seen any indication of DA2 being a "straight shootfest from beginning to end with glitzy cinematics filling up much of the time." I'm not even sure where that complaint came from.

Pff, okay doomsayers.  Abandon the rotting corpse of your favorite game.  I'll revel in how awesome it is next March.  It's pretty clear that you've completely ignored all of the developers' posts, so I'm going to stop trying to tell you what they've said.

Modifié par angelgaidin, 12 juillet 2010 - 07:43 .

[SmokePants]

Jestina wrote...

Because you are supposed to breath life into those characters. That's what RPG is. I don't want to follow some writers story about a character in game versions. If I want to do that, i'll just pick up some REH or Tolkien.

Who says I'm "supposed to"? If I got a hold of the Dragon Age design document, would I find prominent references to "player's ability to make believe"? If so, I imagine they could use that as a crutch against a wide range of presentational oversights. Where would one ever draw such a line between what you spell out for the player and what is left up to them to fill in? That's rhetorical, of course, because the answer is that a designer can't count on the player to do such things. The designer can only control what he controls.

Look, Dragon age was my favorite game of last year and I didn't "breath life" into anything. There must have been a point to the game that didn't involve niche -- and quite frankly bewildering to me -- behavior on the part of the player. That point, I imagine, is the point they're trying to build upon. Good news for me, I guess.

[DeadInHell]

angelgaidin wrote...

You must be a clairvoyant, because I haven't seen any indication of DA2 being a "straight shootfest from beginning to end with glitzy cinematics filling up much of the time." I'm not even sure where that complaint came from.

Pff, okay doomsayers.  Abandon the rotting corpse of your favorite game.  I'll revel in how awesome it is next March.

As much as I favor discussion over flaming, irrational baseless doomsaying is best left unreplied to.

Some people have valid concerns, others are making extreme leaps in order to martyr themselves upon the mighty pen of Bioware.

[Jestina]

17thknight wrote...

Jestina wrote...
We had many options in DA:O.
It wasn't a straight shootfest from beginning to end with glitzy cinematics filling up much of the time. That might be your cup of tea, but you've got ME...what RPG fans on here don't want is DA turning into ME.

I think we both know it's far too late for that. Our series is dead. I mean, really, they even shoved the awful little dialogue wheel into DA2. It's as Mass-Effected as it could get withiout being in space.

This forum has been Mass Effected too. You can tell by their avatars usually.

[Pocketgb]

Jestina wrote...

We had many options in DA:O.

It wasn't a straight shootfest from beginning to end with glitzy cinematics filling up much of the time. That might be your cup of tea, but you've got ME...what RPG fans on here don't want is DA turning into ME.

Change that to "some Dragon Age" fans.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 12 juillet 2010 - 07:44 .

[SirOccam]

17thknight wrote...

Jestina wrote...

We had many options in DA:O.

It wasn't a straight shootfest from beginning to end with glitzy cinematics filling up much of the time. That might be your cup of tea, but you've got ME...what RPG fans on here don't want is DA turning into ME.

I think we both know it's far too late for that. Our series is dead. I mean, really, they even shoved the awful little dialogue wheel into DA2. It's as Mass-Effected as it could get withiout being in space.

Wow, how long has it been? 4 days? And it's official...DA as a franchise is dead. Even though we know nothing of the plot and extremely little of the setting. But still it's dead. That's good to know. Having dialogue options in a circle instead of a line kills franchises. Who'da thunk it?

[AlanC9]

17thknight wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Bio's job is to make DA2 as good as they can, not to satisfy every last DAO player by giving them more of the same.

Actually their job is to make a profit. They do this by selling games. They do not sell games when people dislike what they have made. If they don't sell to fans of the original DA:O then who, exactly, are they supposed to be selling to? 

If the game is better, there will be buyers. It's not that complicated.

It's not like they're alienating "fans of the original DAO." They're alienating a tiny minority of the fans of the original DAO who like aspects of DAO that Bio's chosen not to build on. Sucks to be them -- you -- but that doesn't mean much of anything for sales.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 juillet 2010 - 07:54 .

[asaiasai]

angelgaidin wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

Character customization goes much deeper that just red hair or blue eyes, it goes to the very heart and soul of the character, the ability of the player to put themselves in the world as a whole. You can not do that with Shepard, but you can as i have done 19 times so far in DAO.

Asai

Uh, I could do that with Shepard.  Maybe you weren't trying hard enough?

Sorry no you cannot at least to the depth you could in DAO. ME has ONLY 4 ways to play it, male paragon or renegade, female paragon or renegade, that is all the choices you have, without paying a high price for trying to walk the middle road (see the Miranda/Jack fight towards the end). I was required in order to progress the game pick up companions and was given no choice in the matter. I could not if i chose lets say leave Jack on the prison ship, which is exactly what i would have done and not recruited her at all, if you do not the game will not move foward. I could not say flush Tali out an airlock because i found her especially annoying one morning. Linear progression, limited freedom in game choices, limited romance options, limited ability to equip your PC or party and useless preorder gimmicks where they stapled the helmets to your brain box. These are prime examples of the dumbing down process that occured in the transition from ME to ME2.

In DAO i could leave or dismiss any character except Allistair and Oghren to rot. I had greater choices in builds, gear, story progression, and tactics. In DAO i really had only 4 quests that had to be done, i could choose the outcome from several choices, and i could choose the order in which i did them. In several plays i spent the time digging through dialog options, unlocked Haven, grabbed the ahses before i even set foot in Redcliffe for the first time. In all fairness this does seem to be some of the freedom being hinted at in what information that has been released. But even with that my original question still stands, is Hawke going to be MY Hawke or Mr. Gaider's Hawke, as i have already said i am not really interested in playing Rico from Just Cause 2, Niko Bellic from GTA4 or Mr. Gaider's Hawke from DA2. Pandora's box has been opened and DAO showed me there is a better way to game, that it is possible for developers to still tell a story but not lock the character's personality into a static vision. That it is still possible to create 19 distinctly different characters each as individual as every poster on these forums. If this is the change being made to DA2 it is a sad day for us all.  

Asai 

[LPPrince]

Why does it feel like talking to some people feels like trying to reason with a brick wall?



I try my hardest to be civil, fun, and optimistic, while still giving my opinion and state facts in a good manner, but wow.

[SirOccam]

asaiasai wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

Character customization goes much deeper that just red hair or blue eyes, it goes to the very heart and soul of the character, the ability of the player to put themselves in the world as a whole. You can not do that with Shepard, but you can as i have done 19 times so far in DAO.

Asai

Uh, I could do that with Shepard.  Maybe you weren't trying hard enough?

Sorry no you cannot at least to the depth you could in DAO. ME has ONLY 4 ways to play it, male paragon or renegade, female paragon or renegade, that is all the choices you have, without paying a high price for trying to walk the middle road (see the Miranda/Jack fight towards the end). I was required in order to progress the game pick up companions and was given no choice in the matter. I could not if i chose lets say leave Jack on the prison ship, which is exactly what i would have done and not recruited her at all, if you do not the game will not move foward. I could not say flush Tali out an airlock because i found her especially annoying one morning. Linear progression, limited freedom in game choices, limited romance options, limited ability to equip your PC or party and useless preorder gimmicks where they stapled the helmets to your brain box. These are prime examples of the dumbing down process that occured in the transition from ME to ME2.

In DAO i could leave or dismiss any character except Allistair and Oghren to rot. I had greater choices in builds, gear, story progression, and tactics. In DAO i really had only 4 quests that had to be done, i could choose the outcome from several choices, and i could choose the order in which i did them. In several plays i spent the time digging through dialog options, unlocked Haven, grabbed the ahses before i even set foot in Redcliffe for the first time. In all fairness this does seem to be some of the freedom being hinted at in what information that has been released. But even with that my original question still stands, is Hawke going to be MY Hawke or Mr. Gaider's Hawke, as i have already said i am not really interested in playing Rico from Just Cause 2, Niko Bellic from GTA4 or Mr. Gaider's Hawke from DA2. Pandora's box has been opened and DAO showed me there is a better way to game, that it is possible for developers to still tell a story but not lock the character's personality into a static vision. That it is still possible to create 19 distinctly different characters each as individual as every poster on these forums. If this is the change being made to DA2 it is a sad day for us all.

Those are all legitimate gripes about the Mass Effect series (though I wouldn't call most of the simplification they did in ME2 "dumbing down"...in my opinion it made it a much tighter and cohesive game), but I have to wonder what any of that has to do with DA2?

ME2 is very, very different from Dragon Age. It's meant to be more action-oriented and linear. And it's an amazing game, in my opinion. But a dialogue wheel, a voice, and a single main character is not everything that makes up Mass Effect. Mass Effect is the sum of a huge amount of parts, from design to coding to art to writing. It can't have NOTHING in common with Dragon Age, because it ALREADY has some things in common with Dragon Age. They're both RPGs, to state the most obvious one. They both have romances. They both have interactive dialogues and they both have cutscenes.

It'd be like Ford taking the same gearshift from a Focus and putting it in the Mustang. Does that mean that we should assume that Ford wants to make the Mustang the same as the Focus? Maybe they just think it's a better-designed gearshift. Maybe it's...I dunno...more ergonomically friendly. The point is, the Focus is not its gearshift, and Mass Effect is not a circular dialogue wheel and a voice.

Modifié par SirOccam, 12 juillet 2010 - 08:57 .

[angelgaidin]

asaiasai wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

Character customization goes much deeper that just red hair or blue eyes, it goes to the very heart and soul of the character, the ability of the player to put themselves in the world as a whole. You can not do that with Shepard, but you can as i have done 19 times so far in DAO.

Asai

Uh, I could do that with Shepard.  Maybe you weren't trying hard enough?

Sorry no you cannot at least to the depth you could in DAO. 

Sounds like a personal problem, since I never had any difficulty with doing exactly that.  Maybe it's because I don't come up with unreasonable expectations, such as jettisoning my crew from airlocks, or leaving a valuable asset behind rather than utilizing it for my ultimate goal.

[Kalfear]

Pocketgb wrote...

Jestina wrote...

We had many options in DA:O.

It wasn't a straight shootfest from beginning to end with glitzy cinematics filling up much of the time. That might be your cup of tea, but you've got ME...what RPG fans on here don't want is DA turning into ME.

Change that to "some Dragon Age" fans.

Nope she was right the first time

What RPG fans dont want
Not to be confused with ADD ME2 fans that call themsleves RPG fans but cant even comprehend when someone speaks of imagination and role playing.

[asaiasai]

I am not debating how the developers want to present the story in DA2. I have said before and i will clarify again, I do not care about the following;



better graphics

dialog wheels vs dialog lists

voice overs

dynamic combat (whatever that means) I take it to mean something similar to Rune or The Witcher type hack and slash

cannonizing or playing my previous wardens or thier decisions



I am just asking a simple question, is Hawke going to mine or a pre packaged character like Shepard was in the ME series. I am OK with anything they want to do so long as i can have a Hawke with no baggage already attached. So that i play my Hawke as i want, to be able to decide to blow off the tragedy that was my origin story or allow it to consume me. To RP the character as i want, stacking the bodies to the moon, or brakeing for squirrels. To slap or hug as i see fit, and to fully, have to deal with the consequences of my decisions. This is the perception of freedom and i fully conceede that it is not possible to cover every contingency. All my question is how much pain did the developers go through to stay true to this idea, as DAO was this ability to choose. I was never once locked into a single course of action, until i chose to be.



I use Shepard from Mass Effect, but they are similar to Niko Bellic, or Rico from Just Cause 2 in that they all are property of the writers. Thier baggage has already been packed for the player by the writers, which locks and limits thier choices. Was DAO completely wide open, no of course not, no game can be. I am just asking if the developers tried to recreate the perception of freedom that we had in DAO. That again is the only question i have, the only question i would like answered, for all intensive purposes the only question that matters to me. It will be the one i ask again and again until someone gets tired of it or takes pity on me and answers it.



Asai

[Pocketgb]

Kalfear wrote...

Nope she was right the first time

Except I'm an RPG fan and I don't have much of an issue with this as long as it's presented in deliciously toned fashion.

Kalfear wrote...

Not to be confused with ADD ME2 fans that call themsleves RPG fans but cant even comprehend when someone speaks of imagination and role playing.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 12 juillet 2010 - 09:41 .

[Ecael]

Kalfear wrote...

Pocketgb wrote...

Jestina wrote...

We had many options in DA:O.

It wasn't a straight shootfest from beginning to end with glitzy cinematics filling up much of the time. That might be your cup of tea, but you've got ME...what RPG fans on here don't want is DA turning into ME.

Change that to "some Dragon Age" fans.

Nope she was right the first time

What RPG fans dont want
Not to be confused with ADD ME2 fans that call themsleves RPG fans but cant even comprehend when someone speaks of imagination and role playing.

Do you honestly think you're going to get anywhere by generalizing and insulting large audiences of people over the internet?

[Rogue Unit]

Kalfear wrote...

Pocketgb wrote...

Jestina wrote...

We had many options in DA:O.

It wasn't a straight shootfest from beginning to end with glitzy cinematics filling up much of the time. That might be your cup of tea, but you've got ME...what RPG fans on here don't want is DA turning into ME.

Change that to "some Dragon Age" fans.

Nope she was right the first time

What RPG fans dont want
Not to be confused with ADD ME2 fans that call themsleves RPG fans but cant even comprehend when someone speaks of imagination and role playing.

Nah, its what ''some Dragon Age" fans don't want.
Why do you feel he need to throw in an insult to ME fan? What difference is there from having dialogue options in a circle instead of a list. I cant see any. You are still confined to the ''roles'' Bioware sets for your characters.  You charcter can be the most cowardice person in Thedas, you can express your desire not to take part in the joining yet you are still forced. You are forced into saving Ferelden even if you tell Flemeth and Alistair you'd rather not.

I'd hope people would at least give the game a chance but we seem to be pass that.  My sugestion is you go into the options and mute the dialogue and use your ''imagination" or dont buy the game.  Either one works.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 12 juillet 2010 - 09:51 .

[asaiasai]

angelgaidin wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

Character customization goes much deeper that just red hair or blue eyes, it goes to the very heart and soul of the character, the ability of the player to put themselves in the world as a whole. You can not do that with Shepard, but you can as i have done 19 times so far in DAO.

Asai

Uh, I could do that with Shepard.  Maybe you weren't trying hard enough?

Sorry no you cannot at least to the depth you could in DAO. 

Sounds like a personal problem, since I never had any difficulty with doing exactly that.  Maybe it's because I don't come up with unreasonable expectations, such as jettisoning my crew from airlocks, or leaving a valuable asset behind rather than utilizing it for my ultimate goal.

Jack is not a "valuable asset" she is more like a "pain in the ass". There is not a thing Jack does that Miranda does not do better, and to that point there is nothing that Miranda does that Samara does not do better. If you want the best biotic in the game that leaves you with no other choice than Samara. So if you need a biotic leave the 2 schmucks on the boat, grab the only chick in the game who can get the job done, Samara, anything else is just delusional behavior, or personal choice.

Asai

[Arttis]

Majority rule when it comes to try to sell something people want and you wanna sell as much as you can

[Ecael]

Arttis wrote...

Majority rule when it comes to try to sell something people want and you wanna sell as much as you can

Oh sure, everyone knows BioWare sold out when they targeted a larger audience by starting to make video games back in 1996 with Shattered Steel. They betrayed us aspiring physicians by halting their development of medical education software, which everyone knows are TRUE COMPUTER PROGRAMS, unlike what they make now.

Medical software to video games? Dumbed down, obviously. Thanks for targeting the video gamer market, BioWare!

[Rogue Unit]

asaiasai wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

Character customization goes much deeper that just red hair or blue eyes, it goes to the very heart and soul of the character, the ability of the player to put themselves in the world as a whole. You can not do that with Shepard, but you can as i have done 19 times so far in DAO.

Asai

Uh, I could do that with Shepard.  Maybe you weren't trying hard enough?

Sorry no you cannot at least to the depth you could in DAO. 

Sounds like a personal problem, since I never had any difficulty with doing exactly that.  Maybe it's because I don't come up with unreasonable expectations, such as jettisoning my crew from airlocks, or leaving a valuable asset behind rather than utilizing it for my ultimate goal.

Jack is not a "valuable asset" she is more like a "pain in the ass". There is not a thing Jack does that Miranda does not do better, and to that point there is nothing that Miranda does that Samara does not do better. If you want the best biotic in the game that leaves you with no other choice than Samara. So if you need a biotic leave the 2 schmucks on the boat, grab the only chick in the game who can get the job done, Samara, anything else is just delusional behavior, or personal choice.

Asai

Uhh, Miranda has overload and Warp. She destroys Shields Barriars Armor and Health.  Samara only has Reave.
But this more suited for the ME forums.

[asaiasai]

Rogue Unit wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

Character customization goes much deeper that just red hair or blue eyes, it goes to the very heart and soul of the character, the ability of the player to put themselves in the world as a whole. You can not do that with Shepard, but you can as i have done 19 times so far in DAO.

Asai

Uh, I could do that with Shepard.  Maybe you weren't trying hard enough?

Sorry no you cannot at least to the depth you could in DAO. 

Sounds like a personal problem, since I never had any difficulty with doing exactly that.  Maybe it's because I don't come up with unreasonable expectations, such as jettisoning my crew from airlocks, or leaving a valuable asset behind rather than utilizing it for my ultimate goal.

Jack is not a "valuable asset" she is more like a "pain in the ass". There is not a thing Jack does that Miranda does not do better, and to that point there is nothing that Miranda does that Samara does not do better. If you want the best biotic in the game that leaves you with no other choice than Samara. So if you need a biotic leave the 2 schmucks on the boat, grab the only chick in the game who can get the job done, Samara, anything else is just delusional behavior, or personal choice.

Asai

Uhh, Miranda has overload and Warp. She destroys Shields Barriars Armor and Health.  Samara only has Reave.
But this more suited for the ME forums.

True enough about this is better for the ME forums, i was only using them for comparison purposes anyway, and i do apologize for rising to the bait.
I will add one final thought here in that i was speaking more to the end mission where you need a biotic to hold the bubble, when i have used Jack, or Miranda someone always dies, where as Samara is fool proof.

Asai