1230 réponses à ce sujet

[CarlSpackler]

David Gaider wrote...

CarlSpackler wrote...
This is perhaps the most frustrating part of your response.  I guess I didn’t phrase my questions very well as this seems to miss the mark a little.  Let me try and be more clear, DAO’s character narrative worked a certain way.  DA2 is changing this model (albeit perhaps slightly), this much we know.  This is information you have revealed.  Now perhaps the change once seen will be less pronounced than we believe, but the changes are hardly completely unknown quantities.  All I was trying to ask is what went into the decision process here?  Why change what was a popular and successful model?  When was this decided? 

Sorry if my response was confusing. When I finally get a chance to chime in on a thread, I'm often responding to it in aggregate unless I'm quoting someone and responding to them specifically. It can be hard to differentiate one poster from another sometimes-- kind of like trying to have a conversation in a room full of howler monkeys. At some point it just all ends up being noise.

So with regards to your response, I'll say that I was replying more to those who assumed that our use of features in Mass Effect meant that we must automatically be assuming Mass Effect's implementation or their overall style-- which isn't the case. I imagine there's definitely people who don't really care what our implementation is. Such features are a dealbreaker for them no matter what-- which is fine. There's really not much more to discuss at that point, is there?

With regards to the "why did we make these changes?" question, as in what was the thought process behind it-- I'll leave that to the people who actually make those decisions. But at the end of the day it's the creative direction we wanted to take-- I'm not sure how much more we can explain that. We changed the formula, and even if the response from the most ardent fans is "OMG HOW COULD YOU" that's what we wanted to do, and it's not intended as a "slap in the face" as some people here like to paint it -- we're picking a path for ourselves, not running a committee, and the particulars of what went into that decision are often as much personal as they are business.

Fair enough, thanks for the response.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yay, I love playing junior psychologist! Here, let me accuse all who agree with Bioware's decisions of pshychological sycophancy.
I feel so smart now

Seriously, both sides need to chill and stop. It's getting idiotic, on both sides.

And great post Lara.

[AlanC9]

Brockololly wrote...
Its just disheartening to me at least to look at some of the quotes from back before Origins came out where the DA team was ardently defending the silent PC narrative as compared to Mass Effect only to seemingly be doing a 180 with DA2, claiming that the silent PC didn't allow for "immersion."

People do change their minds, sometimes. I used to think that BG was a difficult game.

[Brockololly]

AlanC9 wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Its just disheartening to me at least to look at some of the quotes from back before Origins came out where the DA team was ardently defending the silent PC narrative as compared to Mass Effect only to seemingly be doing a 180 with DA2, claiming that the silent PC didn't allow for "immersion."

People do change their minds, sometimes. I used to think that BG was a difficult game.

Sure. I just wish, since most people even aware of DA2 at this point are the "hardcore " fans, instead of simply releasing vague proclamations of extreme changes and "amping up" everything, they'd at least give us a tangible chunk of info to get a better feel for the kind of direction they're seemingly taking DA in now.

But thats just marketing shenanigans and all will be released in due time...

[Jallard]

Brockololly wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Its just disheartening to me at least to look at some of the quotes from back before Origins came out where the DA team was ardently defending the silent PC narrative as compared to Mass Effect only to seemingly be doing a 180 with DA2, claiming that the silent PC didn't allow for "immersion."

People do change their minds, sometimes. I used to think that BG was a difficult game.

Sure. I just wish, since most people even aware of DA2 at this point are the "hardcore " fans, instead of simply releasing vague proclamations of extreme changes and "amping up" everything, they'd at least give us a tangible chunk of info to get a better feel for the kind of direction they're seemingly taking DA in now.

But thats just marketing shenanigans and all will be released in due time...

Sometimes bad marketing decisions can backfire. Obviously Bioware and/or Electronic Arts feel that they can make more revenue by making these changes in DA2?!? "When something works why fix it?"

[Lara Denton]

Jallard wrote...

Sometimes bad marketing decisions can backfire. Obviously Bioware and/or Electronic Arts feel that they can make more revenue by making these changes in DA2?!? "When something works why fix it?"

Although some of the changes seem to have been made mostly with money in mind, for an even wider audience and trying to fix things that, at least for some of the more "hardcore" fans, didn't need any change, I hope this is not going to be the case and I hope that these changes will work and that DA2 will be a great game. 

I really want to have another game that will match/surpass the experience DA:O gave me.

@KoP: Thanks!

[Carmen_Willow]

CarlSpackler wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

It's only third person if you have trouble roleplaying a voiced character. I have no such problems, so to me, both Mass Effect and Dragon Age 2 are 1st person. To each his own.

Yeah I think part of it is if you identify with the voice actor.  In the case of ME I really don't like the VA for Shep.  As result it was always someone else's story.

Exactly.  I keep saying that the female Shepard doesn't say things the way I would say them.  I'm not talking about the tone of voice, I am talking about the choice of words, the tone of expression, the cadence and the sentence structure.  I keep putting ME back down because Shepard simply isn't "me."


With DA:O at least some of the choices came close to what I would actually say, or my character would actually say.

[DragonRageGT]

Next will be revealed that DA2 is a PG13 game... =P

[Brockololly]

laradenton wrote...

Jallard wrote...

Sometimes bad marketing decisions can backfire. Obviously Bioware and/or Electronic Arts feel that they can make more revenue by making these changes in DA2?!? "When something works why fix it?"

Although some of the changes seem to have been made mostly with money in mind, for an even wider audience and trying to fix things that, at least for some of the more "hardcore" fans, didn't need any change, I hope this is not going to be the case and I hope that these changes will work and that DA2 will be a great game. 

I really want to have another game that will match/surpass the experience DA:O gave me.

Yeah, I really want to like DA2, its just given the tone and what little info has been released thus far, its not looking too appealing really. I'm willing to see how the gameplay looks though in due time.

I'm no marketing expert, but I would just think that on the initial reveal of a sequel to an old school game, you would want to play to your base and solidify support from the "hardcore" fans first before trying to emphasize how drastically different the game is when many enjoyed the older feel of the original just fine.

[Carmen_Willow]

phaonica wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

It's only third person if you have trouble roleplaying a voiced character. I have no such problems, so to me, both Mass Effect and Dragon Age 2 are 1st person. To each his own.

Bioware representatives have said that Mass Effect is choice-driven third-person and Dragon Age: Origins is first-person. () The Elder Scrolls series and Fallout 3 are also award-winning first-person perspective games. I'm sure that DA2 is going to be a very good third-person perspective game, but the definitively first person perspective is what caused me to become an Origins fan, and I'm sorry that they aren't making DA2 another one.

Playing Oblivion now -- much more interesting than ME.

[Ecael]

laradenton wrote...

Ecael wrote...

laradenton wrote...

 @Hammer6767 and Ecael

Now that these people have been properly analyzed and diagnosed by the our well trained and well known Internet psychologists, I think it is safe to say that they might have a chance of recovery. Bravo!

I understand that the "nerd rage" (or whatever you want to call it) some might display could be annoying, but that's no reason for you to say what you just did. If you really want to act properly, maybe it's better to answer only to those posts that really interest you, than trying to fight with people that you think you cannot reason with and treat them like you're their superiors.

Edited to reform the text.

So it's fine when people make sweeping generalizations and assumptions about BioWare's "dumbed down target audience", "corporate masters" and "unloyal employees", but when someone points out that their behavior matches the type of dumbed down gamer they describe, it's unreasonable?

They then claim that EA executives are conspiring to make more money by hijacking BioWare's creativity (to appeal to the masses), and then immediately act like those same EA "executives" - stifling BioWare's creativity by asking to keep everything the same - because they think $60 gave them the right to dictate what changes and what doesn't?

There is an overwhelming amount of hypocrisy on these forums.

I hope you're not calling me a hypocrite because if you do, I have no idea why.

People might do I they please, as well as you, but seeing/believing in conspiracies and whatnot doesn't make it right for you to start playing the "psychologist" - as in if they don't understand your reasoning, they must be stupid/sick. It is an arrogant attitude and there are other ways to make an argument. If they don't get it, it is not because their psyche is challenged or because you didn't try to explain it, it is most likely because they don't want to concede that there are other options available - it is human nature and so is trowing sort of a tantrum on an Internet forum. It just happens.

I am not the advocate for anything here, but after seeing the posts, I thought to comment about the impression they gave me. Take it as you will. 

I wasn't referring to you in that statement. If you were offended, then I apologize.

The only reason I decided to "play the psychologist" was because of this:

Kalfear wrote...

Not to be confused with ADD ME2 fans that call themsleves RPG fans but
cant even comprehend when someone speaks of imagination and role
playing.

What makes him any more qualified to judge an entire audience's intelligence or mental health by labeling them as Attention Deficit Disorder patients? If judging a single person's character is arrogant, then there is no word for someone who stereotypes an entire player-base because things weren't changed the way they wanted.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yay, I love playing junior psychologist! Here, let me accuse all who agree with Bioware's decisions of pshychological sycophancy.

Ironically, if I started a rumor that I was working for BioWare as some kind of community agent provocateur, people would latch onto that and start echoing it across the forums as fact.

As javierabegazo mentioned before, the forum represents a very small minority, so the vocal minority within it is even more insignificant. Call me whatever you want, but don't start judging BioWare as a whole or their fanbase as a whole when most of them don't even lend their voices to this website specifically.

It is much easier to insult a group of people that you know won't fight back - especially because they're not even here.

Modifié par Ecael, 12 juillet 2010 - 04:36 .

[Carmen_Willow]

David Gaider wrote...

I would suggest that you wait to hear exactly what our approach is before trying to figure out whether it's what you're interested in or not.

People appear to be acting as if the scant details we've revealed are all they'll ever learn about the game ever, and they're thus required to render judgment immediately.

You're really not. You might, in fact, want to see exactly how we're implementing these features you dislike and seeing for yourself whether they differ from, say, Mass Effect's. There are similarities, of course, but there are also differences... and to assume you know everything about how the game is going to feel based off the most cursory of information is just going to make you look foolish.

Perhaps in the end DA2 won't be for you after all. That's fair. You should be able to judge prior to actually playing it-- there will be information galore available prior to its release, I'm sure. But if you want to have questions asking the "why" regarding our approach taken seriously, it might be sensible to wait and see what that approach is first.

It's just that I will be very sad if the sequel to the best game I have played to date turns out to "not be for me."  

And, if we purchase the game in the hope that it will be a great gaming experience, do we get our money back if it is not?  I am not trying to be sarcastic but serious. 

I want to try the game, because I loved the first one, but I also want to register my disappointment in a way that the corporate execs will take seriously if the game  turns out to be not what I expected. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ecael wrote...
It is much easier to insult a group of people that you know won't fight back - especially because they're not even here.

If you didn't notice, I was being sarcastic. Attacking either groop is juvenile, especially when one fashions himself a psychologist.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juillet 2010 - 04:56 .

[Carmen_Willow]

17thknight wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

How so? You have one fewer choice: race.

Incorrect. You also have no origin. That was a very significant part of character customization. No race and no origin. You are left with gender and class.

The origin system should have been improved, not eradicated. It was the single most expansive form of character customization that I can recall in an RPG.

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

No game I ever heard of releases all
information on day one. That would be dumb.

Correct. And
it isn't dumb to respond to the information as it is given to us. Many
game developers demand you wait for the "final product" only for the
final game to actually be what you feared all along.

If they
wish to refute or alleviate our fears with information, they are welcome
to do so, but until that time we are fully capable of responding to
what they release.

@17thknight  You make excellent points in both this and your original posting and express well my greatest fears for the new game.  Thank you.

[Carmen_Willow]

[quote]Every Shepard I've played is identical in personality, there's no reason for them to be any different. [/quote]

Was this true for other RPGs as well?

Incidentally, Shepards have different origins just as DAO characters do. You don't play them out, of course.




[/quote]

And therein lies the problem. Playing out the origing story(ies) tuned me into my character better than any device I have seen to date in a game.  It was a fantastic way to become immersed in your character. (Edit for grammar.)

Modifié par Carmen_Willow, 12 juillet 2010 - 05:11 .

[Lara Denton]

Ecael wrote...

I wasn't referring to you in that statement. If you were offended, then I apologize.

Well, if you weren't referring to me, then there's no reason for me to feel offended.

Ecael wrote...
The only reason I decided to "play the psychologist" was because of this:

Kalfear wrote...

Not to be confused with ADD ME2 fans that call themsleves RPG fans but
cant even comprehend when someone speaks of imagination and role
playing.

What makes him any more qualified to judge an entire audience's intelligence or mental health by labeling them as Attention Deficit Disorder patients? If judging a single person's character is arrogant, then there is no word for someone who stereotypes an entire player-base because things weren't changed the way they wanted.

I missed that post. He's certainly not entitled to make that sort of comment, but to me it looks like being a troll, not a serious poster that actually tries to make a point, so ignore would have been more appropriate? Maybe things got a little too heated? 

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, I really want to like DA2, its just given the tone and what little info has been released thus far, its not looking too appealing really. I'm willing to see how the gameplay looks though in due time. 

I'm no marketing expert, but I would just think that on the initial reveal of a sequel to an old school game, you would want to play to your base and solidify support from the "hardcore" fans first before trying to emphasize how drastically different the game is when many enjoyed the older feel of the original just fine.

I think I've noticed a shift in the marketing style since they decided to wait for DA:O to be release at the same time with the consoles and since then, mostly everything that was about "tradition" and "old school" and other things that the "hardcore" fans find appealing were removed. So it could be that it is just the marketing that makes DA2 look so changed and that at its core, DA2 will still offer some of the experiences that made the original great!

ETA: I am being optimistic. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Modifié par laradenton, 12 juillet 2010 - 05:18 .

[Carmen_Willow]

asaiasai wrote...


Now we get to the heart of the issue. I am not so sure if Mr. Gaider understands the real point of contention. See the issue i have will the ME series is that while Shepard is customizable, who Shepard is, is not. So while i get to customize my Shepard's appearance, i can not create my Shepard's personality.  [Emphasis Added.Shepard's personality is already provided and the player is given very little ability to decide who they want thier Shepard to be. The MAJOR difference between DAO and the ME series is that the warden is MY warden. By providing me the ability to interject my personality into the warden, by proxy this allows me to interject myself into the world. This for me is the MOST IMPORTANT idea that i feel needs to be preserved in DA2. I could care less if i get to play my warden again in DA2, I could care less if the decisions my warden made were cannonized in DA2 since the game will not involve the wardens at all.

 

EXACTLY SO!

[Desyndra]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

And therein lies the problem. Playing out the origing story(ies) tuned me into my character better than any device I have seen to date in a game.  It was a fantastic way to become immersed in your character. (Edit for grammar.)

I feel the same.

Now, that they limit my options to a single human character with a single background story, I feel that my involvement in the story of DA2 is reduced compared to DA:O. (More information may change the way I feel about the game right now, but we are talking about what has been revealed so far, eh?) I played DA:O as many different characters: a human mage, who lives by the rules and accepts the supervision of the Chantry, an Elven mage, who hates the fact that she is confined to the mage's tower, and seeks to get revenge, a human noble who is eager to join the Grey Wardens, another human noble who mourns his father but also feels resentment for being forced into this Grey Warden thing "thanks" to his father's dying wish, a Dalish elf with a chip on her shoulder and a badly disguised contempt for anything human, a city elf who just wants to show that she is at least as good as the best the humans have to offer, an evil mage who craves nothing but power and is willing to defile even the holiest things, and betray friends if he can gain more power that way. See? If they show me that I can achieve the same diversity with a single more or less pre-set character  with a pre-set background story then I will gladly concede that I was wrong.

[Jallard]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

asaiasai wrote...


Now we get to the heart of the issue. I am not so sure if Mr. Gaider understands the real point of contention. See the issue i have will the ME series is that while Shepard is customizable, who Shepard is, is not. So while i get to customize my Shepard's appearance, i can not create my Shepard's personality.  [Emphasis Added.Shepard's personality is already provided and the player is given very little ability to decide who they want thier Shepard to be. The MAJOR difference between DAO and the ME series is that the warden is MY warden. By providing me the ability to interject my personality into the warden, by proxy this allows me to interject myself into the world. This for me is the MOST IMPORTANT idea that i feel needs to be preserved in DA2. I could care less if i get to play my warden again in DA2, I could care less if the decisions my warden made were cannonized in DA2 since the game will not involve the wardens at all.

 

EXACTLY SO!

I concur!

[notsoevilchinstrokeguy]

I think there might just be Orgions in here yet as in your past in lothering you could have been meany differnt things like a town Gaurd or the son/daugther of a knight or maby the child of the local Bann. the only difference is you dont come from differnt places just differnt ways of life witch was what the origions were all about... that is IF you are acctualy from Lothering becaude i have a wild theory that you Warden IS Hawke just with reprogramed memories(like Revan)

you see im more deaital your warden is out doing his/her thing be that searching for Morrigan or siting pretty on the throne with Anora/Alistar then the BAG-BANG! you warden gets all messed up, so some mage/healer comes along and fixes him up giving the Warden false memories(and making them human if not already so) and sending him/her to the Free Marches to do what he/she dose best, win wars! as the warden will represent or one of the prominent of maby not so promenint lands of Kirkwall. after beating the big bady of the game (proably some one from Tiventer or maby the head of the noble house of Kirkwall) some one from the Warden origional Orgion or ,Monarch of Ferelden, or Romanced NPC comes along giveing all of the Wardens Memories back to him/her and seands aide to Ferelden that was conquerd on in the process of being conqured...agen and attacking Tiventer cos lets face it Tiventers are pretty nasty!

Modifié par notsoevilchinstrokeguy, 12 juillet 2010 - 05:42 .

[Carmen_Willow]

LPPrince wrote...

Side note-

I love when people mean to say DAO but say DOA, because I instantly read it as if they were referring to Dead or Alive.

 

"Dead on Arrival"  (Sorry, too many "First 48" like shows watched here.)

[Sique Foque]

Ecael wrote...

laradenton wrote...

 @Hammer6767 and Ecael

Now that these people have been properly analyzed and diagnosed by the our well trained and well known Internet psychologists, I think it is safe to say that they might have a chance of recovery. Bravo!

I understand that the "nerd rage" (or whatever you want to call it) some might display could be annoying, but that's no reason for you to say what you just did. If you really want to act properly, maybe it's better to answer only to those posts that really interest you, than trying to fight with people that you think you cannot reason with and treat them like you're their superiors.

Edited to reform the text.

So it's fine when people make sweeping generalizations and assumptions about BioWare's "dumbed down target audience", "corporate masters" and "unloyal employees", but when someone points out that their behavior matches the type of dumbed down gamer they describe, it's unreasonable?

They then claim that EA executives are conspiring to make more money by hijacking BioWare's creativity (to appeal to the masses), and then immediately act like those same EA "executives" - stifling BioWare's creativity by asking to keep everything the same - because they think $60 gave them the right to dictate what changes and what doesn't?

There is an overwhelming amount of hypocrisy on these forums.

It's quite interesting, how these homemade psychological insults break in a quite normal discussion. While there are the people who say "BW sucks" and so forth, in this thread the majority of posts are concerned with different models of narratives in games. Maybe it would be better to response to concrete posts, if you are annoyed with something, rather than to throw around some unneccessary and unpleasent assumptions. No one is really adressed, so everyone feels like he has been.

[David Gaider]

Brockololly wrote...
I'm no marketing expert, but I would just think that on the initial reveal of a sequel to an old school game, you would want to play to your base and solidify support from the "hardcore" fans first before trying to emphasize how drastically different the game is when many enjoyed the older feel of the original just fine.

If we've changed things wouldn't you rather we just said so?

We're not apologizing for these changes, nor are we trying to hide them. This is still Dragon Age to us. It feels a bit like the people who tried to argue with us that our "Baldur's Gate spiritual successor" couldn't be called that because it didn't have every feature that BG did-- we know what a Dragon Age game should feel like, to us, and to be honest I don't think it rests in player VO/not player VO or a dialogue wheel. We think it rests in the choices the player gets to make, the world and characters you're interacting with and the party-based combat.

Granted, it would be nice if we showed some more things that the particular group which hangs out on these forums would like-- but I have the feeling that no matter how much information we divulged on the announcement it would never quite be enough for you guys. So letting you guys absorb this part before seeing more of what's actually in the game is maybe not a bad idea. Like I've said many times now, you'll see for yourselves in time whether the game's for you... but I think if you're assuming that, even though the same people are working on it who worked on Origins that it won't feel like a Dragon Age game just because, say, your player character talks that you're probably selling us a bit short.

Modifié par David Gaider, 12 juillet 2010 - 05:42 .

[the_one_54321]

David Gaider wrote...
Granted, it would be nice if we showed some more things that the particular group which hangs out on these forums would like-- but I have the feeling that no matter how much information we divulged on the announcement it would never quite be enough for you guys.

Actually, my main concern was just hearing what the combat mechanics will be like. It seems that one of the magazine articles said the game will play roughly the same on the PC, though things have been changed for the consoles. I'm fine with that if it's true.
In terms of the voice and singular PC, I'm fine with that so long as you all tell the story well. And I'm sure you will. So things are sounding more or less alright to me, now. But I'm still naturally nervous and waiting to hear more.

[DragonRageGT]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

It's just that I will be very sad if the sequel to the best game I have played to date turns out to "not be for me."  

And, if we purchase the game in the hope that it will be a great gaming experience, do we get our money back if it is not?  I am not trying to be sarcastic but serious. 

I want to try the game, because I loved the first one, but I also want to register my disappointment in a way that the corporate execs will take seriously if the game  turns out to be not what I expected. 

First, I say a lot of b/s, usually just joking around but I can relate to the "not for me" concern. I've been devouring Bioware games for a long time now.

Second, and I'm not joking about this, wheels for dialogue option works for ME because, well, it is not more a RPG than it is a shooter so I really don't mind it there, although it took me a long while to not be bothered by it on ME1. I am a "keyboard hotkey/shortcut" RTS player after all and not having the kb shortcuts for dialogues like all previous BW's RPGs had was disappointing just annoying.

I'll definitely give it a try, for DA2, but I'll only buy it after I tried it. If Bioware is smart enough, they will give us a pre-release short demo. It worked fine for most games I know of. Risen's demo is the main reason for it to be even known outside Germany and it is a great game (Open World and full 3D, unlike the 2D built world of DA:O, or so the nerd fans of Piranha Bytes claim). Diablo 1 pre-release demo is the main responsible for me getting into PC games after I was over 30yrs old. NWN demo hook me too. BG I didn't need a demo because I was presented with a 4 CD box when it was released.

As for the disappointment part, I'm never disappointed because I never really create expectations. So yeah, let's wait and see what stored for us with DA2. And well, if I don't like the "demo", there are enough games coming out to make 2011 a great year! And about VA main characters... nothing beats the "something to be had" of PB Nameless Hero!

Modifié par RageGT, 12 juillet 2010 - 05:43 .