105 réponses à ce sujet

[TSamee]

If you can't be bothered reading this (I wouldn't be), just skip to the bold bit.
Alright, I understand that some of us are unhappy. I understand that many of us detest the Mass Effect dialogue system, and that the concept of a voiced protagonist in Dragon Age using it makes us angry. It is, after all, a controversial choice, it's guaranteed to attract some hate. What I don't understand is the constant complaints about character customisation. People are now likening it to Mass Effect, and saying Hawke is a replica of Shepard.

Sorry guys, but there's a fundemental difference that many of us are missing here: Hawke, Dragon Age's PC and Shepard are three differnt kinds of protagonist. Let me explain:

Your PC is fully customisable. You decide their backstory, their race, their looks, everything. But, because the only backstory you have is decided during the Origin phase, it's limited in its depth. You have no voice, no accent, no unique movements or quirks. You're simply the PC. In a nutshell, the PC is a way of telling a first-person narrative. Because you customise them and have a wide range of dialogue options, you feel that they are, essentially, you. The actual story of the game, however, isn't about you, it's about other people. It's about Alistair, Morrigan, Sten, Arl Eamon, Teagan, etc.

Next, Shepard. Don't get me wrong, I love Mass Effect, but I feel that Shepard occupies a pretty uncomfortable space as far as protagonists go. You see, you have the option of customising her/him to your liking, and can choose a very limited backstory for her/him. And yet, on the flipside, Shepard has his own voice, his own mannerisms. He's a mix of player customisation and defined character, and that's where the problem is. There's too much character provided by the voice-overs to make him seem like your own character, and there's too little backstory to make him feel like a fully fleshed-out protagonist either. He's the true focus of the story, and yet he feels hollow as a character. That's why many of us are disappointed by the DA2 announcements, because we're afraid of Hawke being another character that's too vocal and unique to simply be the PC, and without enough backstory or character to feel like a true member of the cast.

Finally, Hawke. Frankly, if Hawke was a Shepard-esque protagonist, I'm sure they'd let you pick a race. You'd have a fairly generic accent, one-size-fits-all, you'd pick a simple backstory out of a few choices with nothing but a paragraph of text summing up your entire life before the game. But my argument is that Hawke will be nothing like Shepard at all. All of Thedas's races have unique attributes and experiences depending on their culture. Hawke is human because his experiences are decidedly human, as are his emotions. That means that his past can't just be a paragraph, because it's not too much of a bother to write a paragraph per race. It means he's been given a full backstory, it means he's been given experiences. It means he has regrets and emotions of his own. In short, it means that Hawke is a unique character, unlike Shepard. Also, no "great central Evil", like the Blight, has been mentioned. Other than that, the only focus of the story can be Hawke, and his/her life. DA2 won't be about witnessing an awesome cast say great lines, it won't be about tagging along for the ride during the story. This time, you are the main focus for the story.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Wait a minute here. Based on what we know right now, chances are that Hawke will be much more fleshed out than Shepard. Chances are that Hawke is the main focus of the story, and consequently BioWare have probably put a load of time into making him a deep, interesting character, no matter what choices you make during the game. This is what Mass Effect seemed to promise us, this time the player's a proper character, a member of the cast. This time your PC, your iteration of Hawke, will be just as important and relevant to the story as Morrigan and the Blight or Mordin and the Reapers.

So my question is: why, when given a change that will enhance the game's main focus (the story) are we getting angry? Personally, I'm this close to doing the fanboy dance.

[Arttis]

Its our Almost custome tailored actor being replaced by an unknown.
You know we like seeing familiar and not something unknown.

Modifié par Arttis, 12 juillet 2010 - 02:46 .

[Daewan]

I don't know what you are talking about. Everyone loves Mike Hawke.

[Khayness]

You were misleaded.

Mike Hawke is quite loved contrary to popular belief.

[TSamee]

Daewan wrote...

I don't know what you are talking about. Everyone loves Mike Hawke.

You're good. Very, very good

Also, I understand being annoyed at having your custom PC removed, and not being able to custom-tailor your character. However, my argument is that a custom PC can never really be integrated into the story, as they're not developed in terms of their character and dialogue. By limiting our choice, BioWare's making it possible for our protagonist to be the real centre of the story.

[Heimdall]

I've never had a problem with Shepard... But I see what you mean. Mass effect is about your interpretation of Shepard fighting the Reapers over three games while DA2 is about... Hawke. It's the story of the character not the story of how he defeats some central evil. I'm hoping there are some choices to be made about his background (I hope Lothering ends up being Hawke's "Origin" and you make a desicion about why he leaves before the darkspawn get there)

[TheMufflon]

The thing is, writing for an interchangeable protagonist and a set protagonist is two very different things. When writing for an interchangeable protagonist the writers have to take into account as many of he players possible whims as possible but when you're writing for a set protagonist it's all about making that protagonist incredibly interesting, so that the players will take an interest in him.



BioWare proved, with Dragon Age, that they are great at writing stories for interchangeable characters. But their record with set protagonist has been spotty lately; Shepard is basically a generic action hero, without much else going for him, and Revan only got interesting in the second half of the game, when we found out he was actually Revan.



I, for one, withhold my opinion until we get more information about Hawke, but that people are worried is hardly surprising.

[Warheadz]

In my opinion, Hawke is hated because the beloved Warden is moving away and some rookie comes and says "Your momma told me you will be my friend!".

Personally, I am excited about Hawke and his story, but also hope to see the important characters from origins again in DA 2.

[Legion 2.5]

I think the Hawke approach was a good choice with BioWare and agree with T Samee about it.

[TSamee]

I think Bioware might not be linking the DA games at all, frankly, aside from a single overarching storyline. It's been mentioned that Morrigan is showing up, I get the feeling that her and her child are much more relevant to the Darkspawn and the fate of Thedas in general than our beloved PCs and their parties ever were. Makes me sad.

[BallaZs]

Daewan wrote...

I don't know what you are talking about. Everyone loves Mike Hawke.

That's just not true. Many ppl were whining about Hawke. Some of them because he is a human, some because the name itself, others cuz the concrete origin story.

I like DA2 so far, Hawke is a fine name, I dont mind if I have to be Human and having a concrete story, cuz I do belive that this concrete story is going to be 10 times deeper and better than the DA:O origin stories (Don't get me wrong I loved them)

[Rubbish Hero]

He sounds like a wrestler and sounds like he plays like Shepard.

What's not to hate?

[TheMufflon]

BallaZs wrote...

Daewan wrote...

I don't know what you are talking about. Everyone loves Mike Hawke.

That's just not true. Many ppl were whining about Hawke. Some of them because he is a human, some because the name itself, others cuz the concrete origin story.

I like DA2 so far, Hawke is a fine name, I dont mind if I have to be Human and having a concrete story, cuz I do belive that this concrete story is going to be 10 times deeper and better than the DA:O origin stories (Don't get me wrong I loved them)

The Mike Hawke joke just went right over your head, didn't it? Try saying it out loud.

[TSamee]

Nice to know others are dancing little fanboy circles right now, BallaZs, makes me feel more normal while doing it

I thought the Mike Hawke comment was a subtle play on how DA2 would be all generic, and I was really impressed... until I said Mike Hawke 10 times really fast and realised why it was posted.

[whinnie]

BallaZs wrote...

Daewan wrote...

I don't know what you are talking about. Everyone loves Mike Hawke.

That's just not true. Many ppl were whining about Hawke. Some of them because he is a human, some because the name itself, others cuz the concrete origin story.

I like DA2 so far, Hawke is a fine name, I dont mind if I have to be Human and having a concrete story, cuz I do belive that this concrete story is going to be 10 times deeper and better than the DA:O origin stories (Don't get me wrong I loved them)

Daewan's joke
---------------------
your head

[epoch_]

different = bad

[TheMufflon]

epoch_ wrote...

different = bad

You humans are all racist.

[Archereon]

"Waah! Dragon age origins is ruined FOREVAR now that we have a voiced main char and a canonized ending two origons!" (is it canonized?).



Get real. It's probable that I'll prefer the origins model to the Mass effect character model (seeing as we won't have nearly as many dialogue options), but I'll deal with it, unless they take other tips from mass effect that have no place in a more classic styled RPG (removing the inventory system for example)

[Arthur Cousland]

I have no problem with the Hawke character; I will miss the option of playing as non humans though.  It kinda limits replayability when you're stuck with one character origin as you will only see the game though the eyes as a human.  In particular, I liked when human npcs in Origins would seem shocked to not only see my dwarf character, but one who's not a merchant/blacksmith.  It was also nice returning to Orzammar as a dwarf noble.

Hopefully Hawke will turn out to be an awesome character, and at least you can still change classes.  Perhaps somewhere down the road, I'll get to play as a Qunari character, as I was hoping that they would be a new origin for DA2.

[Chibi Elemental]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

He sounds like a wrestler and sounds like he plays like Shepard.
What's not to hate?

How is she like shep? (yes I am calling hawke a girl cause thats who she is going to be for me) so far the only similarties between the two is the dialouge wheel and the more I hear about that the more I am liking it, last few things I heard was the tonality was going to be represented in the small frase by an icon. Vary different then just a simple paragon or renegade response that could be any tone really. 

The whole voiced protagonist thing is also sort of funny, I remember when DAO was coming out and there was no voice acting for the main char that there were doomsays then as well. In either case this was yet another situation where the developer wanting to tell a different story was doomed if they did doomed if they did not. Also david gaider (lead writer) has said in multiple posts (I am not going to link them you can use the handy search function for that) that he feels he is telling a lot more indepth story then he could have ever in DAO. Which imo is what is really important. Playing the story your way.

So really all I am saying is DA2 has a lot of potential and those who are bashing hawke really need to hold onto their rocks just a while longer. I am sure DA2 is going to be a riot to play, as long as her voice actor is going is good as well.

[TSamee]

While Hawke is certainly closer to Mass Effect, my point is that he'll be nothing like Shepard. It'll no longer be your story, it'll be Hawke's story with you on the reins. No idea if I'm right though, that's just the vibe I'm getting. If we get another Shepard, I'll be unhappy. I'll still buy it for the story though, so it's not as thought it makes a difference.

[DanteCousland]

depends Mike Hawk is epic, really big but York Hawke....meh.

[Rubbish Hero]

Tsai Zhou wrote...

Rubbish Hero wrote...

He sounds like a wrestler and sounds like he plays like Shepard.
What's not to hate?

How is she like shep? (yes I am calling hawke a girl cause thats who she is going to be for me) so far the only similarties between the two is the dialouge wheel and the more I hear about that the more I am liking it, last few things I heard was the tonality was going to be represented in the small frase by an icon. Vary different then just a simple paragon or renegade response that could be any tone really. 

The whole voiced protagonist thing is also sort of funny, I remember when DAO was coming out and there was no voice acting for the main char that there were doomsays then as well. In either case this was yet another situation where the developer wanting to tell a different story was doomed if they did doomed if they did not. Also david gaider (lead writer) has said in multiple posts (I am not going to link them you can use the handy search function for that) that he feels he is telling a lot more indepth story then he could have ever in DAO. Which imo is what is really important. Playing the story your way.

So really all I am saying is DA2 has a lot of potential and those who are bashing hawke really need to hold onto their rocks just a while longer. I am sure DA2 is going to be a riot to play, as long as her voice actor is going is good as well.

Mass Effect.

[TSamee]

well-played XD



I hope the time that went into personalising dialogue for your race/making different origins is spent making a wide variety of outcomes for different situations. So, instead of different origins, each quest could have many different choices, methods and outcomes. That would add to replayability.

[Chibi Elemental]

TSamee wrote...

While Hawke is certainly closer to Mass Effect, my point is that he'll be nothing like Shepard. It'll no longer be your story, it'll be Hawke's story with you on the reins...

It was never really your story to begin with its always been a story with you at the helm, more akin to those choose your own adventure stories with an interface. people keep forgetting this, we are only the driving force behind the decitions the character makes not actually making up what he says or does at all, pen and paper roleplaying unfortunatly with all of its flaws or play by post are really the onlly places where you can get what your talking about.

Thats not so say I am sad about the loss of general customization of race and origin, that was a feature I think they could have still brought to the table but not with the short development cycle they were given. However that also said, I am sure this game is going to be quite fun and quite epic.

I love Miss Hawke so far lets all just hope she has a good voice actor, that truly is at the moment my biggest worry.