223 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

It really comes down to what you prefer in a monarch and what type of society you think is important really.

Alistair is the obvious fairy tale King. The people are happy and content. There is a sense of fairness and justice, but there is much less progress and Ferelden risks remaining a backwater country. Alistair's legacy will be the nostalgic memory of the mercyful King.

Anora is the obvious choice for the political science student. She is autocratic, but seems to have clear vision of how to bring progress to Ferelden. Progress will always unsettle a society, but will have very positive influence in the future. Anora's legacy will be a stronger Ferelden more able to assert it's influence in the world.

Personally I think that Anora is the better choice, but then again I'm a political science student too. Not every one values progress, economic gain and political influence for Ferelden.

/Edit. Alistair is also the best choice for those who simply want personal political power for their character, especially when unhardened. A MCousland who marries Anora would be able to influence her a lot, but would probably not be able to secure as much independant power as if he was councellor to Alistair.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 15 juin 2010 - 10:26 .

[Koffeegirl]

I asked Alistair and Anora if they would want to rule together and they were both like "No! Absolutely NOT!" To me I thought making Anora queen was a good decision as Alistair said he didn't want it and when I asked him what I should do he stated, " Make Anora queen. I think she would do a good job." To my PC putting Alistair on the throne may make it seem like the Grey Wardens were trying to rule Ferelden especially since he didn't want it, plus Anora is rightfully queen as the king died. For me Anora, did not want to try to execute Alistair or anything. (Probably because he was so set on not being king.) In my epilogue Anora was a good ruler.
However, on my next playthrough I am going to make Alistair king and see how Anora betrays you.

Modifié par Koffeegirl, 15 juin 2010 - 03:25 .

[Koffeegirl]

I meant Alistair as king LOL

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

Anora is the obvious choice for the political science student. She is autocratic, but seems to have clear vision of how to bring progress to Ferelden. Progress will always unsettle a society, but will have very positive influence in the future. Anora's legacy will be a stronger Ferelden more able to assert it's influence in the world.

The problem is that none of this is apparent in-game.  Anora's rule has been disastrous for Ferelden up to the Landsmeet.  She can't blame it on Cailan, either, because as she states numerous times, she was the one running the country.  So without metagame knowledge, she is hardly the obvious choice.

[Costin_Razvan]

What do you mean disastrous? What the hell are your barking there?



I believe you speak before Ostagar, so tell me, what does ANYTHING in game link to her rule being disastrous, besides Howe and his coupe against the Couslands? If anything Eamon tells us the Queen is well loved and respected, and she certainly did not gain that by being an infective leader.

[Addai]

I'll only respond to replies made in a civil tone.

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Anora is the obvious choice for the political science student. She is autocratic, but seems to have clear vision of how to bring progress to Ferelden. Progress will always unsettle a society, but will have very positive influence in the future. Anora's legacy will be a stronger Ferelden more able to assert it's influence in the world.

The problem is that none of this is apparent in-game.  Anora's rule has been disastrous for Ferelden up to the Landsmeet.  She can't blame it on Cailan, either, because as she states numerous times, she was the one running the country.  So without metagame knowledge, she is hardly the obvious choice.

Anora has not been running the country up to the Landsmeet. Between Cailan's death and the Landsmeet Anora is only the King's widow.  Loghain rules the country as regent, and Anora has no power to depose him as she is not ruling Queen until the Landsmeet confirms her.

Loghain's rule after Cailans's death is rather disastrous. Anora's rule (in Cailan's name) before that has, according to evidence in the game, been very successful.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 15 juin 2010 - 05:02 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Though of course you will have people blame Anora for what Loghain did....cause it's that easy to assume she could do anything about him.

[squigian]

Anora is too ruthless to rule alone, though. Look how quickly she is willing to throw the elves, Alistair and her own father under the bus to guarantee her security on the throne. Anora has experience, yes, but she seems too power-hungry to rule without the moderating influence of a figurehead king. I see her more as an administrator, an executioner of policy, not someone I'd like to devise the political goals themselves as they would be based far more on her own selfishness than doing what is best for Ferelden. Often those two things coincide but that will not always be the case.

[Asdara]

Well there's always the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy approach that whoever wants to rule is obviously unfit to do so - therefore find someone who wants nothing to do with ruling and get them in the throne. Now... that sounds ridiculous, but it's got merit too. Power corrupts more quickly if you're always after more of it. I think either person is an acceptable ruler by the standards of the setting - but neither is what I would consider ideal. Then again, where is an ideal ruler to compare to? The people who would do the best job with such roles typically stay as far away from them as humanly possible - and when they do get the idea in their head to try to help the world then tend to live very short lives.

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

Anora has not been running the country up to the Landsmeet. Between Cailan's death and the Landsmeet Anora is only the King's widow.  Loghain rules the country as regent, and Anora has no power to depose him as she is not ruling Queen until the Landsmeet confirms her.

Loghain's rule after Cailans's death is rather disastrous. Anora's rule (in Cailan's name) before that has, according to evidence in the game, been very successful.

What marks of success do you take from the 5 years since Maric's death?  Loghain has already been plotting Cailan's downfall- he apparently doesn't take their reign as very stable.  And then, Anora allows herself to be railroaded by Loghain to the point that it almost destroys her country.  It is easy enough to say that it's not her fault, but the buck always stops.  She could have spoken up at Loghain's fake Landsmeet and asserted her rule immediately after Ostagar.  Everything in-game shows her to be a weak and ineffectual ruler except for her reputation, which was all earned under Maric's auspices and Cailan's co-rule.

[Xandurpein]

squigian wrote...

Anora is too ruthless to rule alone, though. Look how quickly she is willing to throw the elves, Alistair and her own father under the bus to guarantee her security on the throne. Anora has experience, yes, but she seems too power-hungry to rule without the moderating influence of a figurehead king. I see her more as an administrator, an executioner of policy, not someone I'd like to devise the political goals themselves as they would be based far more on her own selfishness than doing what is best for Ferelden. Often those two things coincide but that will not always be the case.

If you look at the end card for Anora rules alone you will realize that Anora is not at all just about good administration and personal power. It is Anora who has the political agenda for how to make Ferelden stronger and more proesperous. She encourages education by building a university and enocurages trade.  She is in fact extremely strong when it comes to having sound political goals.

Evidence strongly suggests that she does not just want power for it's own sake, rather that she is convinced that she is the only person who can do the job right. Her weakness is rather that she may be a bit too ruthless in how she pursue her goals.

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Anora has not been running the country up to the Landsmeet. Between Cailan's death and the Landsmeet Anora is only the King's widow.  Loghain rules the country as regent, and Anora has no power to depose him as she is not ruling Queen until the Landsmeet confirms her.

Loghain's rule after Cailans's death is rather disastrous. Anora's rule (in Cailan's name) before that has, according to evidence in the game, been very successful.

What marks of success do you take from the 5 years since Maric's death?  Loghain has already been plotting Cailan's downfall- he apparently doesn't take their reign as very stable.  And then, Anora allows herself to be railroaded by Loghain to the point that it almost destroys her country.  It is easy enough to say that it's not her fault, but the buck always stops.  She could have spoken up at Loghain's fake Landsmeet and asserted her rule immediately after Ostagar.  Everything in-game shows her to be a weak and ineffectual ruler except for her reputation, which was all earned under Maric's auspices and Cailan's co-rule.

Her not speaking up to Loghain at the Landsmeet where Loghain tries to make himself regent can be interpreted as her acting wrongly if you want, but it says absolutly nothing about her ability to rule, as she is not the ruler. What possible buck stops at her? 

She is slow to to break with her father, yes. Breaking with your family is not lightly done in those times. And she probably has a weak spot for her father that clouds her perceptions. But that doesn't make her a bad ruler in general, anymore than it makes Alistair a bad King simply because he has a hangup about Loghain too, although of a different sort.

The crisis between Cailan and Loghain is not her fault either. She can only be held accounted for those things Cailan let her take care of in his name. When Cailan choose to deal with Orlais it was HIS responsibility, not hers. If the buck stops anywhere then, it's with Cailan.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 15 juin 2010 - 06:02 .

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

Her not speaking up to Loghain at the Landsmeet where Loghain tries to make himself regent can be interpreted as her acting wrongly if you want, but it says absolutly nothing about her ability to rule, as she is not the ruler. What possible buck stops at her? 

She is slow to to break with her father, yes. Breaking with your family is not lightly done in those times. And she probably has a weak spot for her father that clouds her perceptions. But that doesn't make her a bad ruler in general, anymore than it makes Alistair a bad King simply because he has a hangup about Loghain too, although of a different sort.

The crisis between Cailan and Loghain is not her fault either. She can only be held accounted for those things Cailan let her take care of in his name. When Cailan choose to deal with Orlais it was HIS responsibility, not hers. If the buck stops anywhere then, it's with Cailan.

It seems to me that you want to have it both ways- to allow Anora to take credit for the good things in the previous 5 years of rule, but not take any blame for the bad nor any responsibility for what happens post-Ostagar.  All she needed was the Landsmeet to confirm her as queen regnant.  This would likely have been only a formality, but she does not even ask them to do it.  If she is a capable ruler, why would she need a regent?  She even says at various points "I am already queen," so the leap between queen consort and queen regnant is not very large in her mind, either.  Yet she cannot even take in hand her own father and put him in his place:  As general of her armies.

These things are understandable as the mistakes of a young queen who idolized her father.  However, it makes it apparent that her reputation and her self-confidence don't really line up with reality.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 juin 2010 - 06:15 .

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

It seems to me that you want to have it both ways- to allow Anora to take credit for the good things in the previous 5 years of rule, but not take any blame for the bad nor any responsibility for what happens post-Ostagar.  All she needed was the Landsmeet to confirm her as queen regnant.  This would likely have been only a formality, but she does not even ask them to do it.  If she is a capable ruler, why would she need a regent?  She even says at various points "I am already queen," so the leap between queen consort and queen regnant is not very large in her mind, either.  Yet she cannot even take in hand her own father and put him in his place:  As general of her armies.

These things are understandable as the mistakes of a young queen who idolized her father.  However, it makes it apparent that her reputation and her self-confidence don't really line up with reality.

This is really so simple. When Cailan is King he has the ultimate authority. Everything that happens is ultimately his responsibility. He choose to direct a few things personally, but leaves the rest to Anora. What he choose to direct himself seems on the whole to not work to well (Ostagar, balancing Loghain and Orlais), but that which he let's Anora handle in his name goes well. Which is why people respect her much more than Cailan.

You base your whole argument on the assumption that if Anora had said "no make me queen", when Loghain made his bid to be made regent, it would just have gone through wtihout problem. You really need to somehow prove that. Loghian is never general of her armies. He is general of his armies.

The sad thing is that you are making the same type of arguments that others make for suggesting that Alistair must be weak King and in doing so validating those arguments too.

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

This is really so simple. When Cailan is King he has the ultimate authority. Everything that happens is ultimately his responsibility. He choose to direct a few things personally, but leaves the rest to Anora. What he choose to direct himself seems on the whole to not work to well (Ostagar, balancing Loghain and Orlais), but that which he let's Anora handle in his name goes well. Which is why people respect her much more than Cailan.

Why are those things Cailan's fault?  According to Anora and the conventional wisdom of many people who post here, Cailan could do nothing but shine up his armor.  If she really was in charge, then she was in charge.  If she wasn't, then her assertion that she was is bluster and we need give it no credence.  Either way, skepticism as regards Anora's fitness to lead is warranted.

You base your whole argument on the assumption that if Anora had said "no make me queen", when Loghain made his bid to be made regent, it would just have gone through wtihout problem. You really need to somehow prove that. Loghian is never general of her armies. He is general of his armies.

Loghain made no bid to be regent, he just declared himself so, and Anora let him.  If she is queen, then all of Ferelden's armies are her armies.  If that isn't the case, then she isn't the strong ruler you claim she is and you're making my point for me.

The sad thing is that you are making the same type of arguments that others make for suggesting that Alistair must be weak King and in doing so validating those arguments too.

I'm not sure where you draw the comparison.  Alistair is an untried king, and that is his weakness.  Anora is a tried ruler, but that is both her strength and weakness.  You are arguing that the status quo proves she is a capable ruler, whereas I see it as demonstrating the very opposite.

[Giggles_Manically]

I wish I could have overthrown both of them with the people and started a Democratic civilization with my mage. That would have been funny as hell.



Although I wish there had been an overthrow option like in Jade Empire or Kotor, would have been cool to do that.

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

This is really so simple. When Cailan is King he has the ultimate authority. Everything that happens is ultimately his responsibility. He choose to direct a few things personally, but leaves the rest to Anora. What he choose to direct himself seems on the whole to not work to well (Ostagar, balancing Loghain and Orlais), but that which he let's Anora handle in his name goes well. Which is why people respect her much more than Cailan.

Why are those things Cailan's fault?  According to Anora and the conventional wisdom of many people who post here, Cailan could do nothing but shine up his armor.  If she really was in charge, then she was in charge.  If she wasn't, then her assertion that she was is bluster and we need give it no credence.  Either way, skepticism as regards Anora's fitness to lead is warranted.

I never claimed Calan did nothing but polish his armor. Cailan was the King, Cailan led the army. Cailan negotiated with Orlais. Cailan left most of the "boring" governing to Anora.

Anora is very clear if you want to marry her that she will not let the player be King, because she is tired of being dependant on someone else's whims. She can only rule as long as Cailan allows it. She is more than anything else Cailan's chancellor.

What Cailan lets her do, which is most of running the country, she does well to all evidence. When she says she has been running the country, she isn't far off really, but she has been doing it at Cailan's sufferance. If you can't see that difference I don't know how else to explain it.

You base your whole argument on the assumption that if Anora had said "no make me queen", when Loghain made his bid to be made regent, it would just have gone through wtihout problem. You really need to somehow prove that. Loghian is never general of her armies. He is general of his armies.

Loghain made no bid to be regent, he just declared himself so, and Anora let him.  If she is queen, then all of Ferelden's armies are her armies.  If that isn't the case, then she isn't the strong ruler you claim she is and you're making my point for me.

I'm not sure you understand how the monarchy works. All power comes from the monarch, even if it was true that Cailan was a babbling idiot, Anoras power is still dependant on him. When Cailan dies, Anora has no power, because all power will be transferred to the heir. 

 A Queen is not heir to the throne. A Queen widow has no formal power at all. Anora can only be a ruling queen if the Landsmeet decides to make her so. If she was a legitimate heir to the throne Alistair would never even have a chance of becoming King.

When Loghain declares himself Regent he does so in a power vacuum, made possible by the fact that there is NO legitimate heir.

[Addai]

(double post)

Modifié par Addai67, 15 juin 2010 - 11:39 .

[Asdara]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I never claimed Calan did nothing but polish his armor. Cailan was the King, Cailan led the army. Cailan negotiated with Orlais. Cailan left most of the "boring" governing to Anora.

Anora is very clear if you want to marry her that she will not let the player be King, because she is tired of being dependant on someone else's whims. She can only rule as long as Cailan allows it. She is more than anything else Cailan's chancellor.

I agree that it is very apt to see Anora as fulfilling a chancellor role.  Which is also why it is reasonable for a PC to conclude that Alistair plus Eamon or the PC as chancellor will be just as capable, and that Anora as sole ruler is going to be even less successful than she had been prior.

Let's recall that what we are discussing here is your claim that Anora is the obvious choice for someone who is politically minded and interested in progress for Ferelden whereas Alistair is simply the sentimentalist or populist choice.  My main point is that you can only come to that conclusion based on metagame knowledge, not by what we see in-game.  The ruler choice in-game must be made largely on faith.

I'm not sure you understand how the monarchy works. All power comes from the monarch, even if it was true that Cailan was a babbling idiot, Anoras power is still dependant on him. When Cailan dies, Anora has no power, because all power will be transferred to the heir. 

I understand this completely.  My issue is with the fact that Anora lets her father railroad her and does not even attempt to assert herself to the Landsmeet and simply ask them to confirm her as queen regnant.  She is standing meekly by while Loghain makes his illegal bid for regent.  She is not down in the meeting hall, she is in the gallery right beside him, and says nothing.  Insofar as she does not act against him, does not even make a peep about his actions, she is responsible for allowing her country to go down a ruinous path that almost leads to its destruction.

I got that impression too at first, but the more I thought about it the more I tend to believe she was actually being savvy about waiting for her opportunity.  I mean, there's a possible Blight coming and her father is the Hero of Riverdane - which a good likelihood that in war people would follow him despite doubts (should Alistair not have surfaced).  If he came through the Blight as a winning Regent and she, already the Queen, his obvious heir had stayed in place then she would naturally be the only choice for a new Royal bloodline.  It could have been a tactical move on her part to wait in the back until the fallout was over as well, then represent herself as the moderate option to the people.

However, all of that argues for the idea of her pursuing personal status and power rather than looking out for national interests.

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I never claimed Calan did nothing but polish his armor. Cailan was the King, Cailan led the army. Cailan negotiated with Orlais. Cailan left most of the "boring" governing to Anora.

Anora is very clear if you want to marry her that she will not let the player be King, because she is tired of being dependant on someone else's whims. She can only rule as long as Cailan allows it. She is more than anything else Cailan's chancellor.

I agree that it is very apt to see Anora as fulfilling a chancellor role.  Which is also why it is reasonable for a PC to conclude that Alistair plus Eamon or the PC as chancellor will be just as capable, and that Anora as sole ruler is going to be even less successful than she had been prior.

Let's recall that what we are discussing here is your claim that Anora is the obvious choice for someone who is politically minded and interested in progress for Ferelden whereas Alistair is simply the sentimentalist or populist choice.  My main point is that you can only come to that conclusion based on metagame knowledge, not by what we see in-game.  The ruler choice in-game must be made largely on faith.

Eamon is totally untried in the role of chancellor to a King. The only real knowledge we have of Eamon as a ruler is that he is respected, but apparently willing to turn a blind eye to all the dreadful mistakes his wife makes, costing scores of lives. I see no reason at all to assume that he would make a better chancellor or ruler than Anora.

The PC is of course always yourself and totally awesome. I don't deny anyone their private fantasy of being totally awesome as chancellor.

I'm not sure you understand how the monarchy works. All power comes from the monarch, even if it was true that Cailan was a babbling idiot, Anoras power is still dependant on him. When Cailan dies, Anora has no power, because all power will be transferred to the heir. 

I understand this completely.  My issue is with the fact that Anora lets her father railroad her and does not even attempt to assert herself to the Landsmeet and simply ask them to confirm her as queen regnant.  She is standing meekly by while Loghain makes his illegal bid for regent.  She is not down in the meeting hall, she is in the gallery right beside him, and says nothing.  Insofar as she does not act against him, does not even make a peep about his actions, she is responsible for allowing her country to go down a ruinous path that almost leads to its destruction.

No she doesn't speak out against her father, and I have already conceded that I think she has a weakness for her father. Then again, family ties are very hard to break those medieval times. I think it shows poor judgement, but she is obviously not very happy about the situation and she is torn between family loyalty and other concerns. She later breaks with him, when the result of his actions becomes obvious, despite great personal pain. All in all I don't find much that disqualifies her as Queen in that.

And some knitpicking. There is nothing illegal about Loghain's bid for regency. In the absense of any legal heirs it is perfectly reasonable for a Teyrn to make a bid for regency. It only becomes illegal when he acts as regent, even if the Landsmeet refuse to accept his bid.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 15 juin 2010 - 08:01 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I got that impression too at first, but the more I thought about it the more I tend to believe she was actually being savvy about waiting for her opportunity. I mean, there's a possible Blight coming and her father is the Hero of Riverdane - which a good likelihood that in war people would follow him despite doubts (should Alistair not have surfaced). If he came through the Blight as a winning Regent and she, already the Queen, his obvious heir had stayed in place then she would naturally be the only choice for a new Royal bloodline. It could have been a tactical move on her part to wait in the back until the fallout was over as well, then represent herself as the moderate option to the people.



However, all of that argues for the idea of her pursuing personal status and power rather than looking out for national interests.

My belief is that she had no choice, with Loghain's and Howe's troops stationed in Denerim she had no real power.



It is important to remember one thing about Loghain: He will do whatever it takes, no matter the cost. In game he didn't kill Anora because she wasn't a threat to him, and while killing her might have been to his advantage ( allowing him to be crowned King as Shale points out ) he didn't do it because even he has a line.



However, if Anora had turned against him openly at the Landsmeet, then it is without a doubt in my mind that he would have murdered her.

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...
Eamon is totally untried in the role of chancellor to a King. The only real knowledge we have of Eamon as a ruler is that he is respected, but apparently willing to turn a blind eye to all the dreadful mistakes his wife makes, costing scores of lives. I see no reason at all to assume that he would make a better chancellor or ruler than Anora.

None of the characters are without faults and failings, but Eamon has been a stalwart of the nobility since before Anora was in diapers.  He, like Cailan and Anora both, did not see Loghain's treachery coming.  That is a mistake that can be laid at everyone's door.

No she doesn't speak out against her father, and I have already conceded that I think she has a weakness for her father. Then again, family ties are very hard to break those medieval times. I think it shows poor judgement, but she is obviously not very happy about the situation and she is torn between family loyalty and other concerns. She later breaks with him, when the result of his actions becomes obvious, despite great personal pain.

Only if she believes that she can't gain personal power another way.  Otherwise, she is very happy to confirm and compound all her disastrous mistakes up to that point by allowing her father to execute Eamon (the man he tried to poison- no justice there, eh?) and the Grey Wardens whom he had tried to assassinate.  Naturally you can't know for sure, when she speaks to you at Howe's and later at Eamon's, that she is being duplicitous, but even then you could hardly blame a PC for suspecting that she is actually working with Loghain.

And some knitpicking. There is nothing illegal about Loghain's bid for regency. In the absense of any legal heirs it is perfectly reasonable for a Teyrn to make a bid for regency. It only becomes illegal when he acts as regent, even if the Landsmeet refuse to accept his bid.

Agreed, a bid for a regency would not be illegal.  Loghain did not make a bid, he made a declaration, and that was what was illegal.  It was never legal, even when he acted on it, however.  Poor choice of words on my part.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 juin 2010 - 08:20 .

[Asdara]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I got that impression too at first, but the more I thought about it the more I tend to believe she was actually being savvy about waiting for her opportunity. I mean, there's a possible Blight coming and her father is the Hero of Riverdane - which a good likelihood that in war people would follow him despite doubts (should Alistair not have surfaced). If he came through the Blight as a winning Regent and she, already the Queen, his obvious heir had stayed in place then she would naturally be the only choice for a new Royal bloodline. It could have been a tactical move on her part to wait in the back until the fallout was over as well, then represent herself as the moderate option to the people.

However, all of that argues for the idea of her pursuing personal status and power rather than looking out for national interests.

My belief is that she had no choice, with Loghain's and Howe's troops stationed in Denerim she had no real power.

It is important to remember one thing about Loghain: He will do whatever it takes, no matter the cost. In game he didn't kill Anora because she wasn't a threat to him, and while killing her might have been to his advantage ( allowing him to be crowned King as Shale points out ) he didn't do it because even he has a line.

However, if Anora had turned against him openly at the Landsmeet, then it is without a doubt in my mind that he would have murdered her.

I don't think Anora would have to turn against him to stand up as Queen though.  She could entirely support her father as her General Commander whatever you want to call it and still make a bid for the Throne / Regency in concert with him.  She doesn't do that though - for what I am sure are very politically wise reasons.  She's not a fool.  Why take the heat if you can have the kitchen to yourself once the previous chef is fired?

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

None of the characters are without faults and failings, but Eamon has been a stalwart of the nobility since before Anora was in diapers.  He, like Cailan and Anora both, did not see Loghain's treachery coming.  That is a mistake that can be laid at everyone's door.

Isolde can't really be blamed for Jowan poisoning Eamon, she was duped. But it's her fault that Connor causes the death of so many people in Redcliff. There is never any mention of punishment for Isolde for that and I very much hold Eamon responsible for that. 

I do not being stalwart of the nobility is something that necessarily is any good either. Thispoints towards preserving old traditions, rather than working for the future. 

Only if she believes that she can't gain personal power another way.  Otherwise, she is very happy to confirm and compound all her disastrous mistakes up to that point by allowing her father to execute Eamon (the man he tried to poison- no justice there, eh?) and the Grey Wardens whom he had tried to assassinate.  Naturally you can't know for sure, when she speaks to you at Howe's and later at Eamon's, that she is being duplicitous, but even then you could hardly blame a PC for suspecting that she is actually working with Loghain.

I'm not blaming anyone for roleplaying anything. That was never the point of what I wrote. But by the same token you can't blame anyone for believing she isn't working with Loghain either. I fail to see the point. If you only allow for in-game knowledge, then it is perfectly reasonable to play in a way that excludes all duplicity on her part, just as it is reasonable to play in a way that doesn't reveal that Alistair will abandon the Grey Wardens and the fight against the Blight if things doesn't go his way.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 15 juin 2010 - 09:25 .