223 réponses à ce sujet

[Aurelet]

Ask the City Elves how good a ruler Anora is...

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...
I'm not blaming anyone for roleplaying anything. That was never the point of what I wrote. But by the same token you can't blame anyone for believing she isn't working with Loghain either. I fail to see the point. If you only allow for in-game knowledge, then it is perfectly reasonable to play in a way that excludes all duplicity on her part, just as it is reasonable to play in a way that doesn't reveal that Alistair will abandon the Grey Wardens and the fight against the Blight if things doesn't go his way.

The way you framed your earlier comments about what the choice boils down to between Anora and Alistair makes it seem that the only "reasonable" choice is to make Anora ruler.  Whereas my thesis is that in-game, it is pretty much a toss-up.  You decide whom your PC trusts, whose failings are worse, and what your PC's priorities as kingmaker are, and that's what the choice boils down to.

[Addai]

 A Queen is not heir to the throne. A Queen widow has no formal
power at all. Anora can only be a ruling queen if the Landsmeet decides
to make her so. If she was a legitimate heir to the throne Alistair
would never even have a chance of becoming King.

(husband)

Technicallly since she was a Teynr's daughter, and married to the former King she should have a claim to the throne via marriage, if Eamon and Teagan have one via Rowan then the same should go with her but even stronger since she had a more direct relationship and the history is more recent.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 juin 2010 - 11:20 .

[Addai]

 (wife of) Addai

My main point is that you can only come to that conclusion based
on metagame knowledge, not by what we see in-game.  The ruler choice
in-game must be made largely on faith.


(husband/ Addai)

That not true.

1) You have his reluctance to govern that only starts to get fixed towards the end of the game, and only then if he is hardened.


2) You have his lack of political experience.    This does not begin to
get fixed till the epilogue if he is hardened and even then he would be
ameteur compared to Anora who was literally raised to rule.


3) You have his reliance on Dick Cheney,  aka  Arl Eamon to get him
through his administration seen in the End game and finalized in the
epilogue.    While Anora does not have any central advisory figure,
unless the PC wants a chancellor position as a boon.


4) You have the actual end game slides as mentioned by Xanderpein.


You get a picture from the start to the game to the end of it that yes she
has more experience then he has.   That picture is crystalized in the
end with the actual epilogues but you see it as early as Lothering.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 juin 2010 - 11:54 .

[Addai]

(husband )

 (mistake)

Modifié par Addai67, 15 juin 2010 - 11:56 .

[phaonica]

I think it is a choice based on personal taste in a leader.



1) Is reluctance to lead a favorable characteristic in a leader? Is the desire to be the leader automaticaly suspect? Both can be considered favorable characteristics by some, and be considered unfavorable by others.

2) Is the lack of political experience preferable over one who has political experience, but whose motivations are questionable? Is it better to have someone who knows what they are doing, but is a jerk, or is it better to get rid of that person in favor of someone who is good and kind, but could potentially make mistakes that could cost lives? A person with experience can make mistakes, too, but the risks are arguably lesser.

3) Is the reliance on advisors a strength or a weakness?

4) How much do you rely on a person's reputation to help you make this choice? Or do you make the choice solely on what your character has experienced? Is any character's pre-game reputation negated by their in-game actions?



The right answer to who is the better leader depends on what your definition of a good leader is, and that has the potential to be different with every character. Both Alistair and Anora have their strengths and weaknesses, which are determined as such differently by every character, and both have their potential risks and consequences.

[Addai]

So, my husband is arguing against my earlier points... sorry if this is confusing for anyone but it's what happens when you live in a one-gaming-PC household. 

To hubby then:  Look upthread.  I argued extensively why Anora's weak, poor, and in the end nearly disastrous show as leader cancels out all of the negatives you mention which rate against Alistair.  Depending on your PC's perspective, it is very logical to roleplay deciding to take the untried Warden you trust versus the Loghain knockoff whose chief skill seems to be political scheming.

[Giggles_Manically]

Both of them are fosters of an outdated imperalistic dogma, that exploits the working class!

[Addai]

Addai67 wrote...

So, my husband is arguing against my earlier points... sorry if this is confusing for anyone but it's what happens when you live in a one-gaming-PC household. 

To hubby then:  Look upthread.  I argued extensively why Anora's weak, poor, and in the end nearly disastrous show as leader cancels out all of the negatives you mention which rate against Alistair.  Depending on your PC's perspective, it is very logical to roleplay deciding to take the untried Warden you trust versus the Loghain knockoff whose chief skill seems to be political scheming.

 

(husband)

I did!

And I must take my hat off to Xanderpein, who I thought dealt with all your objections wonderfully.  
Congradulations Ser, you are a man of letters!

Modifié par Addai67, 16 juin 2010 - 03:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xandurpein wrote...
Anora is the obvious choice for the political science student. She is autocratic, but seems to have clear vision of how to bring progress to Ferelden. Progress will always unsettle a society, but will have very positive influence in the future. Anora's legacy will be a stronger Ferelden more able to assert it's influence in the world.

Personally I think that Anora is the better choice, but then again I'm a political science student too. Not every one values progress, economic gain and political influence for Ferelden.

Yep, that's me too. Poli Sci students FTW!
Great arguing Xander.


And am I the only one who thinks the "Addai couple" is cute? lol

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And am I the only one who thinks the "Addai couple" is cute? lol

Yes, "cute."  <_<

I believe it all goes to show that one can make all sorts of allowances and excuses for a character one personally likes.  To hear it told, Loghain never did anything wrong either, so neither he nor Anora are responsible for a bit of the fix the country is in.  Rendon Howe and the dead Cailan- very convenient scapegoats.

Meanwhile, I hear "I've been in charge for the last five years," look around Ferelden, and say "it's time for new management."  I generally arrange the marriage between Alistair and Anora (apart from an HNF character), have Alistair duel Loghain, and then it is Anora's choice that Alistair becomes sole ruler.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 juin 2010 - 04:40 .

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

The Addai couple makes for fantastic reading and entertainment value. It's a novelty, and not a stupid novelty, which is rare.

I beg to differ.  I think it's pretty stupid arguing with myself on the board- which is what it feels like.  But you get a flavor of our breakfast conversation.  *heavy sigh*  I'm hoping one of these days he goes back to his silly spaceship games.  LOL

I think Anora gets a bad rap. I always go back to the 3rd Loghain cuscene where Howe is hemming and hawing about the Bannorn and Anora finally gets fed up with Loghain. It's obvious she trusted her father's military judgement initially, but her doubts had been growing for some time. At this point her father and Howe have her in a vice, but I think if she saw an out she would take it and make the right decisions.

Obviously her varied actions atthe Landsmeet pending the PCs choices can lead to arguments about her judgement. I'm not going to go there right now as I'm half asleep.

That cutscene is a bit of a cheat in my view.  It's not knowledge your PC could ever have, and yet it's hard to filter such things when trying to play consistently.

But I really think I've seen Anora throw my Wardens under the bus one too many times to ever trust or like her character, so there's my filter clogged.  If you play an HNM who wants to grab power, her conniving side is a plus.  Otherwise I go with Fiona of The Calling who, when she got to know Maric, said that Ferelden was lucky to have a king who was also a good man.  It's ironic that my Wardens often romance Alistair and end up having to sacrifice a lot, and make him sacrifice a lot, in order for him to become king.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 juin 2010 - 05:27 .

[Xandurpein]

I admit that my original post about Anora being the obvious choice for the political science student was based on meta-gaming. I think that judging from the ending cards, that is perfectly obvious.

I still think that there is also a lot of evidence in the game that is available to the PC prior to the Landsmeet that hints that this is so, although I cheerfully admit that there is a lot of room for interpretation. Bringing personal ambition into the mix of course means that you have a different choice for everyone and none is necessarily the wrong one.

Alistair will, unless he is married to Anora, be relying a lot on Eamon as chancellor. Disregarding his blind eye towards his wife's failures, I think there is sufficient evidence in game to brand Eamon as a "preserver of the old ways" type of noble. Chivalrous, honest and not interested in progress. To me Eamon the duster's Harrowmont. This will mark Alistair's reign.

Anora with her middle class background is something different. To me she represents a fusion of nobility and the emerging merchant middle class. As a political science student I find that very appealing, as I know that the countries where those two forces could be made to work in harmony, were the most successful and progressive nations. I would even contend that England's greatness was to a large extent built on it.

I never claimed that Loghain's reign as Regent was anything but a disaster. Loghain is, together with many counterparts from history, a classic example of a great general turned into a mediocre politician. It is all the more damning to Loghain that he had a person who could have handled things vastly better than he did right under his nose, in the shape of his own daughter.

Anora has the type of ruthlessness and vision needed to drag a backward Ferelden into a great future. Most of her decisions makes sense politically. It can even be argued that her decision to kill Alistair is the correct one if you look at it without passion (which I can't do in the game by the way. I always ask her to let him go). A lot of lives will probably be spared if Alistair is beheaded, as there is less unrest in the country afterward if Alistair is killed.

@Addai (husband) Thank you kindly Ser!

@Addai (wife) I don't deserve all the praise. Thank you too, for a inspirational and interesting debate. You continually argue clearly and coherently. It's been a pleasure.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 16 juin 2010 - 05:56 .

[Xandurpein]

Hanz54321 wrote...

I'm still not discussing the Landsmeet yet. She can throw the Warden under the bus there. I admit that takes some pondering because then she's right back with Daddy who she clearly thinks has lost his marbles. Maybe with Howe dead and her taking power in a public forum she thinks she can get control of the situation and start issuing orders again. Thus her father is less of a threat.

Indeed. Her actions at the Landsmeet if you decide to openly support Alistair as King is the one action of hers which I really dislike. Then again, Alistair will have his worst moment if you go against his wish to kill Loghain at the same time. So the Landsmeet can really bring out the worst in both Alistair and Anora. Personally I tend to think that those two moments sort of cancel's each other, as far as choosing between them goes.

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

Alistair will, unless he is married to Anora, be relying a lot on Eamon as chancellor. Disregarding his blind eye towards his wife's failures, I think there is sufficient evidence in game to brand Eamon as a "preserver of the old ways" type of noble. Chivalrous, honest and not interested in progress. To me Eamon the duster's Harrowmont. This will mark Alistair's reign.

Anora with her middle class background is something different. To me she represents a fusion of nobility and the emerging merchant middle class. As a political science student I find that very appealing, as I know that the countries where those two forces could be made to work in harmony, were the most successful and progressive nations. I would even contend that England's greatness was to a large extent built on it.

And yet, ironically, it is Alistair whose reign is marked by compassion for and connection to the middle and oppressed classes in Fereldan society.  He is a commoner, too, I might remind you, and has not grown up with the privileges that Anora has, nor with the same sense of entitlement that fires her ambition and vast self-confidence.  This is one reason why the Bhelen-Harrowmont comparison fails (other than the fact that dwarven politics is its own animal) and personally I avoid it.

I grant you that Anora's reign is marked by progressive measures such as expanded trade and education.  It is her presence in a ruling pair- though not alone- that heralds a "Golden Age," whatever that means.  However, I don't see anything in-game which indicates this will be the case.  Anora represents the status quo, and especially as far as my elves are concerned, Alistair represents the chance for a new day.  When hardened, he will still rely on Eamon and/or the PC, but there is no reason to think that he is solely dependent on them past his initial orientation to his role.

A lot of lives will probably be spared if Alistair is beheaded, as there is less unrest in the country afterward if Alistair is killed.

!!!  How do you figure this?  I use the same argument for why Loghain needs to die at the Landsmeet, but if the Landsmeet decides against him, Alistair disclaims the throne, and without Eamon backing him beyond that point, there is no indication of any further civil war.  Once the Blight is defeated, that pretty much secures the throne of whomever is in power.  It is Anora who foments continued rebellion if she does not win the throne, by refusing to swear fealty.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 juin 2010 - 06:56 .

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Well, I just skimmed through the rest of the thread. At least the current posts do not seem to focus on the "betrayal" at Howe's mansion like the 7 month old posts. Which is a plus because I don't see how folks can feel betrayed by her actions at Howe's. She tells the Warden not to reveal her to her father's men because she believes her father has lost it. So people are suprised when the warden says to Cauthrien, "Hey look - Anora is right here. See? It's all good." Of course Annoya is going to deny siding with the Warden - she knows all to well that if her father getsa hold of her and believes she was on the warden's side then her "death would be her own doing" just like Cailan's.

I addressed this upthread a little, but I don't think it's unreasonable for the Warden to look at what is clearly a death trap and decide that Anora's chances of getting out of it alive are much better than yours.  You are Public Enemy #1 (and #2, if Alistair is in the party, or maybe he is #1) and you are likely to see torture and death before it is all said and done.  Anora is the queen, with public backing, and would be in the hands of her father and Cauthrien who clearly thinks you're insane for suggesting Anora is in danger.

Furthermore, by that point my PC is usually figuring out that it is all a trap.  I usually pick the dialogue choice early on that says "this sounds like a trap."  (Anora then promises her unconditional support at the Landsmeet, BTW.)  By the time you get to the room of neatly arranged Loghain soldiers, it's all starting to seem very [alistair]  creepy  [/alistair].  And convenient.

Matters go on from there.  By the time my PC gets to Eamon's, they have pretty much concluded that Anora is a snake in the grass.  It depends on the Warden whether or not they can slither more quietly than she, or if they decide to play it straight with her and we move on to "rumble at the Landsmeet."

Modifié par Addai67, 16 juin 2010 - 07:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xandurpein wrote...
I never claimed that Loghain's reign as Regent was anything but a disaster. Loghain is, together with many counterparts from history, a classic example of a great general turned into a mediocre politician. It is all the more damning to Loghain that he had a person who could have handled things vastly better than he did right under his nose, in the shape of his own daughter.

I don't want this thread to become a Loghain debate. I just want to address this because I have a theory about it.

The fact bolded above is, I am sure, not unknown to Loghain. He knows that Anora has been trained since childhood to be Queen. He knows how she is as a person and about her skills. So why did he not let Anora rule fully?

I personally think, and it's just a theory / interpretation, that Loghain wanted to protect Anora and that actually worked. Perhaps Loghain thought that had he involved Anora with him from the very start, that would mean Anora would be an accomplice to the retreat at Ostagar / death of Cailan, Uldred, Eamon's poisoning...etc. If all these plots were to be discovered, that means Anora would be a culprit, or at least a more explicit and direct one.

As such, Loghain perhaps, with the goal of protecting his daughter, kept her out of all of his plans. And, if he had that intention, then he was succesful. We can remove Loghain from power, but Anora can still remain Queen and the Landmseet wouldn't object. But had we the evidence that Anora masterminded everything with Loghain, then I doubt the Landsmeet would accept her as Queen.

Of course as it turned out, efficiency wise, Loghain was not that good at politics (even if the gossip npcs say that Loghain was beating the rebels). But I do believe Loghain kept Anora out for her own protection. I could be wrong however.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The "Golden Age" slide appears only with Cousland / Anora, as far as I know, and not Alistair / Anora. Someone correct me if I am wrong. But that shows that a Cousland is necessary for the Golden Age to happen, if he doesn't act like an ass with Anora.



And I agree with Addai that we can't really know about Anora's future projects in-game. Nor about her vision. However, we do know that she has experience, intelligence and skills to be an effective monarch, as Eamon points out. So yes, while we can't really know what will happen (when do we ever do?), the Anora epilogue wouldn't come as a surprise to one who put her on the throne because of her skills / experience.

[Swoo]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...


A lot of lives will probably be spared if Alistair is beheaded, as there is less unrest in the country afterward if Alistair is killed.

!!!  How do you figure this?  I use the same argument for why Loghain needs to die at the Landsmeet, but if the Landsmeet decides against him, Alistair disclaims the throne, and without Eamon backing him beyond that point, there is no indication of any further civil war.  Once the Blight is defeated, that pretty much secures the throne of whomever is in power.  It is Anora who foments continued rebellion if she does not win the throne, by refusing to swear fealty.


I believe he's talking about  the ending slide in which a rebellion is sparked in his name and briefly clashes with Anora's rule, even though Alistair had no part in it whatsoever and was busy getting sloppy drunk across the ocean.

Modifié par Swoo, 16 juin 2010 - 07:21 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The "Golden Age" slide appears only with Cousland / Anora, as far as I know, and not Alistair / Anora. Someone correct me if I am wrong. But that shows that a Cousland is necessary for the Golden Age to happen, if he doesn't act like an ass with Anora.

You're wrong.    The only time that it appears definitively is Alistair + Anora.  Plus it talks about them being "beloved rulers."  Anora + Cousland says that there may be a Golden Age (correct me if I'm wrong, please).

Modifié par Addai67, 16 juin 2010 - 07:23 .

[Swoo]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The "Golden Age" slide appears only with Cousland / Anora, as far as I know, and not Alistair / Anora. Someone correct me if I am wrong. But that shows that a Cousland is necessary for the Golden Age to happen, if he doesn't act like an ass with Anora.

You're wrong.    The only time that it appears definitively is Alistair + Anora.  Plus it talks about them being "beloved rulers."  Anora + Cousland says that there may be a Golden Age (correct me if I'm wrong, please).

They say it will be a golden age if the Cousland and Anora don't spark another civil war in a power struggle.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The "Golden Age" slide appears only with Cousland / Anora, as far as I know, and not Alistair / Anora. Someone correct me if I am wrong. But that shows that a Cousland is necessary for the Golden Age to happen, if he doesn't act like an ass with Anora.

You're wrong.    The only time that it appears definitively is Alistair + Anora.  Anora + Cousland says that there may be a Golden Age (correct me if I'm wrong).

Are you sure? I can't really remember and in the DA wikia, it only mentions the possibility of a Golden Age with Anora / Cousland. It only says that Anora and Alsitair are "beloved monarchs".
http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Epilogue
Of course it could be wrong.

And of course it's not definitive for Cousland as it will depend largely on how the Cousland is RPed.
But it is a definitive Golden Age if Cousland doesn't fight with Anora.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 juin 2010 - 07:27 .

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Alistair will, unless he is married to Anora, be relying a lot on Eamon as chancellor. Disregarding his blind eye towards his wife's failures, I think there is sufficient evidence in game to brand Eamon as a "preserver of the old ways" type of noble. Chivalrous, honest and not interested in progress. To me Eamon the duster's Harrowmont. This will mark Alistair's reign.

Anora with her middle class background is something different. To me she represents a fusion of nobility and the emerging merchant middle class. As a political science student I find that very appealing, as I know that the countries where those two forces could be made to work in harmony, were the most successful and progressive nations. I would even contend that England's greatness was to a large extent built on it.

And yet, ironically, it is Alistair whose reign is marked by compassion for and connection to the middle and oppressed classes in Fereldan society.  He is a commoner, too, I might remind you, and has not grown up with the privileges that Anora has, nor with the same sense of entitlement that fires her ambition and vast self-confidence.  This is one reason why the Bhelen-Harrowmont comparison fails (other than the fact that dwarven politics is its own animal) and personally I avoid it.

I grant you that Anora's reign is marked by progressive measures such as expanded trade and education.  It is her presence in a ruling pair- though not alone- that heralds a "Golden Age," whatever that means.  However, I don't see anything in-game which indicates this will be the case.  Anora represents the status quo, and especially as far as my elves are concerned, Alistair represents the chance for a new day.  When hardened, he will still rely on Eamon and/or the PC, but there is no reason to think that he is solely dependent on them past his initial orientation to his role.

You are quite correct in describing that Alistair's reign will probably be more compassionate for the commoners and the elves. That is pretty much what I hinted in the beginning too. I wasn't talking about the commoner's though. I was talking about the merchant class. Favoring education and the merchant class is what brings economic progress, whichis really the foundation of any lasting progress. Favoring the commoners in a backward country like Ferelden will generate sympathy and good will, but won't create any lasting improvment of the country. Without a strong economy and education Ferelden will continue to be the prey of it's bigger neighbours. This may sound harsh, but that is really what political history teaches us.

A lot of lives will probably be spared if Alistair is beheaded, as there is less unrest in the country afterward if Alistair is killed.

!!!  How do you figure this?  I use the same argument for why Loghain needs to die at the Landsmeet, but if the Landsmeet decides against him, Alistair disclaims the throne, and without Eamon backing him beyond that point, there is no indication of any further civil war.  Once the Blight is defeated, that pretty much secures the throne of whomever is in power.  It is Anora who foments continued rebellion if she does not win the throne, by refusing to swear fealty.

Look at the end cards. If you let Alistair live and run away to become a drunk, the end card says that there are a few minor uprisings in his name. If you let Anora kill Alistair, there is no mention of such uprisings. My conclusion is that allowing Alistair to live will probably cost many more lives than having him beheaded. I can never bring myself to do it, for emotional reasons, but I see the logic. It's not really a big issue though, as such minor peasant uprisings are of little consequence anyway.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 16 juin 2010 - 07:31 .