Aller au contenu

Photo

Anora Vs Allistair...


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
223 réponses à ce sujet

#126
Miri1984

Miri1984
  • Members
  • 4 532 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
I never claimed that Loghain's reign as Regent was anything but a disaster. Loghain is, together with many counterparts from history, a classic example of a great general turned into a mediocre politician. It is all the more damning to Loghain that he had a person who could have handled things vastly better than he did right under his nose, in the shape of his own daughter.


I don't want this thread to become a Loghain debate. I just want to address this because I have a theory about it.

The fact bolded above is, I am sure, not unknown to Loghain. He knows that Anora has been trained since childhood to be Queen. He knows how she is as a person and about her skills. So why did he not let Anora rule fully?

I personally think, and it's just a theory / interpretation, that Loghain wanted to protect Anora and that actually worked. Perhaps Loghain thought that had he involved Anora with him from the very start, that would mean Anora would be an accomplice to the retreat at Ostagar / death of Cailan, Uldred, Eamon's poisoning...etc. If all these plots were to be discovered, that means Anora would be a culprit, or at least a more explicit and direct one.

As such, Loghain perhaps, with the goal of protecting his daughter, kept her out of all of his plans. And, if he had that intention, then he was succesful. We can remove Loghain from power, but Anora can still remain Queen and the Landmseet wouldn't object. But had we the evidence that Anora masterminded everything with Loghain, then I doubt the Landsmeet would accept her as Queen.

Of course as it turned out, efficiency wise, Loghain was not that good at politics (even if the gossip npcs say that Loghain was beating the rebels). But I do believe Loghain kept Anora out for her own protection. I could be wrong however.


I think you might be right, and I think that Howe did everything he could to make sure Anora wasn't there to be a voice of reason with her father. I remember getting to the end of the game and thinking WTF? about Loghain, because I was certain the whole time it would turn out he was under the control of a blood mage working for Howe or something similar... 

I'm pretty sure Howe was behind most of the really hideous ideas Loghain came up with - like the slavery of the elves, although if Loghain thought Eamon was really trying to get Anora put aside for an Orlesian wife I wouldn't be surprised if he was behind the poisoning.

As far as who would make the better ruler? Hardened Alistair, every time. Anora is a "competent administrator" but cold hearted. I also agree that either of them with a Cousland spouse is better than they are on their own. And.. as a married couple, much as I hate the idea of the two of them together!

#127
phaonica

phaonica
  • Members
  • 3 435 messages

Addai67 wrote...
 He is a commoner, too, I might remind you, and has not grown up with the privileges that Anora has, nor with the same sense of entitlement that fires her ambition and vast self-confidence.  This is one reason why the Bhelen-Harrowmont comparison fails (other than the fact that dwarven politics is its own animal) and personally I avoid it.

Wait, what? I don't understand. Harrowmont isn't a commoner, so he doesn't compare well to Alistair in that sense, but I do find Bhelen to feel entitled and self-confident. Why does the comparison fail?
 

Anora represents the status quo, and especially as far as my elves are concerned, Alistair represents the chance for a new day

I'm not sure why anyone thinks Alistair finds the plight of the elves to be a priority. Maybe just because he's not Anora? When Cailan and even Maric ruled, the elves were basically in the same place. Why is Alistair so different?

It is Anora who foments continued rebellion if she does not win the throne, by refusing to swear fealty.

This is true. If Alistair is king and survives the Archdemon, it would without doubt (in my mind) be in the best interest of securing his reign to execute Anora. Sometimes people don't need a reason to rebel, they just need an excuse, and sometimes that has nothing to do with whether the King/Queen is a good one or not.

I addressed this upthread a little, but I don't think it's unreasonable for the Warden to look at what is clearly a death trap and decide that Anora's chances of getting out of it alive are much better than yours.

I agree with this. Anora has *far* more chance of explaining the situation and being trusted, or lying and getting out of it, than the Warden does, which leads to the possibility of no one (or at least fewer people) having to die.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
 But I do believe Loghain kept Anora out for her own protection. 


This could be true. But she also supported Cailan's plan to bring in the Orlesian reinforcments, which he may or may not have been able to talk her out of.
 

#128
Swoo

Swoo
  • Members
  • 927 messages
I'm not sure why anyone thinks Alistair finds the plight of the elves to be a priority. Maybe just because he's not Anora? When Cailan and even Maric ruled, the elves were basically in the same place. Why is Alistair so different?

(Alistair) improves conditions in the Alienage after being crowned and even appoints the Elder (Shianni by that point IIRC) to the Landsmeet, causing an uproar with the nobility.

#129
KnightofPhoenix

KnightofPhoenix
  • Members
  • 21 527 messages

Swoo wrote...

I'm not sure why anyone thinks Alistair finds the plight of the elves to be a priority. Maybe just because he's not Anora? When Cailan and even Maric ruled, the elves were basically in the same place. Why is Alistair so different?

(Alistair) improves conditions in the Alienage after being crowned and even appoints the Elder (Shianni by that point IIRC) to the Landsmeet, causing an uproar with the nobility.


They are talking about in-game knowledge I believe. There is little to suggest, in-game, that Alistair is deeply concerned with the elves. Perhaps it could be argued that it is obvious if he is romancing an elf, but other than that, there are little to no hints about this.

#130
Xandurpein

Xandurpein
  • Members
  • 3 045 messages

Miri1984 wrote...

As far as who would make the better ruler? Hardened Alistair, every time. Anora is a "competent administrator" but cold hearted. I also agree that either of them with a Cousland spouse is better than they are on their own. And.. as a married couple, much as I hate the idea of the two of them together!


Much as I approve of Anora's competence as an administrator you are missing the point if you make Anora out as just a competent administrator. This might not be obvious in the game, but it is Anora who has the sound long term political goals that will make Ferelden strong and able to fend for itself, by encouraging education and trade. That is not good administration, that is a strong political vision. If you want to critizise her, it's nearer the mark to say that she is a bit cold hearted in how she pursue those goals.

#131
KnightofPhoenix

KnightofPhoenix
  • Members
  • 21 527 messages
Can anyone confirm that Anora / Alistair can bring a Golden age? DA wikia makes no mention of this and the only mention of the prospect of a Golden Age is with Anora / Cousland.
So if anyone can confirm, it would be greatly appreciated.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 juin 2010 - 07:49 .


#132
Jacks Smirking Revenge

Jacks Smirking Revenge
  • Members
  • 561 messages
I think it says they are both beloved, and the common people think the blight, civil war was worth it to get such a nice ruling pair. not word for word, but I'm fairly sure that is the basic idea of it.

#133
phaonica

phaonica
  • Members
  • 3 435 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Can anyone confirm that Anora / Alistair can bring a Golden age? DA wikia makes no mention of this and the only mention of the prospect of a Golden Age is with Anora / Cousland.
So if anyone can confirm, it would be greatly appreciated.



This is what I found, as quickly as I could:

"<FirstName/> married Queen Anora in a lavish ceremony six months after her coronation, becoming the prince-consort of Ferelden. Many said that if the two did not end up vying for control of the throne, they would usher in a new golden age not seen since King Calenhad first united the barbarian tribes."

This is the only mention of the word "golden". I'll keep looking, just wanted to let you know I"m searching for you.

#134
KnightofPhoenix

KnightofPhoenix
  • Members
  • 21 527 messages
Thanks Jacks! Yea that's what the wikia says too.

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Can anyone confirm that Anora / Alistair can bring a Golden age? DA wikia makes no mention of this and the only mention of the prospect of a Golden Age is with Anora / Cousland.
So if anyone can confirm, it would be greatly appreciated.



This is what I found, as quickly as I could:

" married Queen Anora in a lavish ceremony six months after her coronation, becoming the prince-consort of Ferelden. Many said that if the two did not end up vying for control of the throne, they would usher in a new golden age not seen since King Calenhad first united the barbarian tribes."

This is the only mention of the word "golden". I'll keep looking, just wanted to let you know I"m searching for you.


Aww thank you Image IPB
Yes that's what I thought. The only mention of a Golden Age is with Anora/ Cousland. Not Alistair / Anora.

#135
Xandurpein

Xandurpein
  • Members
  • 3 045 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aww thank you Image IPB
Yes that's what I thought. The only mention of a Golden Age is with Anora/ Cousland. Not Alistair / Anora.


I knew it. I'm way better for her than Alistair... :wub:

#136
Guest_Dalira Montanti_*

Guest_Dalira Montanti_*
  • Guests
I chose to be Alistairs queen but my ending was rather cut short in awakening :(



Way I see it Alistair seems to only care about the so called right thing to do even when u harden him he still chooses to break up ith you if you dont ask to be his mistress



I did my male play threw and married Anora and it changed my prospectiv of her a tiny bit still dont like her though enough to say shes a great ruler



I think Alistair make a good king just needs a bit of cousland infulence

#137
phaonica

phaonica
  • Members
  • 3 435 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Swoo wrote...

I'm not sure why anyone thinks Alistair finds the plight of the elves to be a priority. Maybe just because he's not Anora? When Cailan and even Maric ruled, the elves were basically in the same place. Why is Alistair so different?

(Alistair) improves conditions in the Alienage after being crowned and even appoints the Elder (Shianni by that point IIRC) to the Landsmeet, causing an uproar with the nobility.


They are talking about in-game knowledge I believe. There is little to suggest, in-game, that Alistair is deeply concerned with the elves. Perhaps it could be argued that it is obvious if he is romancing an elf, but other than that, there are little to no hints about this.


"So you get to the Landsmeet and somebody decided it would be a good idea to let *you* make the decision of who's gonna rule Ferelden...You're sleeping with one of the options, and they let you make this decision." <- from a funny rant on youtube

#138
Miri1984

Miri1984
  • Members
  • 4 532 messages

Xandurpein wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

As far as who would make the better ruler? Hardened Alistair, every time. Anora is a "competent administrator" but cold hearted. I also agree that either of them with a Cousland spouse is better than they are on their own. And.. as a married couple, much as I hate the idea of the two of them together!


Much as I approve of Anora's competence as an administrator you are missing the point if you make Anora out as just a competent administrator. This might not be obvious in the game, but it is Anora who has the sound long term political goals that will make Ferelden strong and able to fend for itself, by encouraging education and trade. That is not good administration, that is a strong political vision. If you want to critizise her, it's nearer the mark to say that she is a bit cold hearted in how she pursue those goals.


Mmm. I suppose in the final slide it does say that she's keen on those things. But the impression I get from those slides is that the people like Alistair more than her... Not that rule by populism is the best option in this case - it didn't do the Romans much good. 

I don't know, I think if you take that into account the two of them are equally good but for different reasons - someone else mentioned that Alistair is the heart and Anora is the head - so putting them together to rule is a good idea. I like to think my HNF is more  of a head than a heart person without being quite so cold as Anora though, so I'll always prefer a universe where it's an Alistair/Cousland pairing rather than an Anora/Alistair or an Anora on her own.

#139
phaonica

phaonica
  • Members
  • 3 435 messages

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aww thank you Image IPB
Yes that's what I thought. The only mention of a Golden Age is with Anora/ Cousland. Not Alistair / Anora.


I won't spam the thread with all the text, but here are the slides that I pulled out of the toolset:

*SPOILERS* Endgame Slides

Modifié par phaonica, 16 juin 2010 - 08:51 .


#140
Xandurpein

Xandurpein
  • Members
  • 3 045 messages

Miri1984 wrote...

Mmm. I suppose in the final slide it does say that she's keen on those things. But the impression I get from those slides is that the people like Alistair more than her... Not that rule by populism is the best option in this case - it didn't do the Romans much good.


That pretty much sums it up in my opinion. Anora is the better politician, but Alistair is the most popular one. Granted that "better" will always be a matter of opinion. I meen it from the POV of a political science student.

I don't know, I think if you take that into account the two of them are equally good but for different reasons - someone else mentioned that Alistair is the heart and Anora is the head - so putting them together to rule is a good idea. I like to think my HNF is more  of a head than a heart person without being quite so cold as Anora though, so I'll always prefer a universe where it's an Alistair/Cousland pairing rather than an Anora/Alistair or an Anora on her own.


It would take quite a lot of political skill and a certain amount of ruthlessness to be able to duplicate Anora's accomplishments. Pushing for progress is seldom without friction in society. Then again, the Cousland PC has recieved a very good schooling and the PC is always awesome at everything, so why not.

Personally I go with the Anora/Cousland option, but that is of course only if you are male PC.

#141
soignee

soignee
  • Members
  • 5 035 messages
Anora is more progressive, Alistair more traditional. He is the fairytale king in his shiny armour, whose kindness is legendary. Not depending who he has surrounded by him (Warden, Anora, etc) a solo Alistair rules with a hand that keeps things ticking over, there's nothing revolutional about it.

Anora is the politician who I believe does care for Ferelden and pushes it forward. Universities? Good lord, amazing. Historically universities in culture means ideas, which means invention, which means... Oh hello, renaissance!

Combined of course and it's golden.

Now it's meta gaming to assume you know this information at around Land's Meet, however, and you have to go with what you know at the time, which is:

*Your warden's opinion of Alistair, and if they think he can be King from your year's interactions, and if you approve of Arl Eamon's machinations.
*If you think Anora's solo rule with her Daddy is good enough to continue, if you trust her to do well outside her Father's reach.

Modifié par soignee, 16 juin 2010 - 09:45 .


#142
Costin_Razvan

Costin_Razvan
  • Members
  • 7 010 messages
It is funny really, but I based my opinion about Anora based on the Codex which does paint as an effective ruler, and on what Eamon says.



If you feel that it is metagaming by using the Codex, let me remind you that the codex is made up of gossip/history/facts.

#143
nos_astra

nos_astra
  • Members
  • 5 048 messages
I'm not sure about how to interpret the epilogue slides for the rulers. There is a tendency that a political marriage will offer you more insight in what will happen politically. There's also the tendency that Anora obviously knows what she wants to do and what she wants to ignore, while Alistair still has to learn things (if he even wants to learn).

Anora's character and political expertise are well known but she is not flawless. (At least I think she's not supposed to be a perfect ruler.)
Alistair's character is known but what he's going to learn and how he's going to change under the the pressure of being responsible for a country we do not know.
The Warden is an unknown quantity.
A political marriage is more likely to be effective.

I think the slides focus on things that are known about the characters. They don't delve deep into how things are going to wind up. Anora's pressing for progress might lead to a strong Ferelden ... but combined with her willingness to let people suffer and her unwillingness to remarry this could cause trouble that could destroy everything she's been working for. Alistair still has to learn, so of course things will go slower for him. He will focus on stability first, let the country heal while he's adjusting to his new role.

Modifié par klarabella, 16 juin 2010 - 02:35 .


#144
Xandurpein

Xandurpein
  • Members
  • 3 045 messages

klarabella wrote...

I think the slides focus on things that are known about the characters. They don't delve deep into how things are going to wind up. Anora's pressing for progress might lead to a strong Ferelden ... but combined with her willingness to let people suffer and her unwillingness to remarry this could cause trouble that could destroy everything she's been working for. Alistair still has to learn, so of course things will go slower for him. He will focus on stability first, let the country heal while he's adjusting to his new role.


I try to focus on what it says on the slides. I think it's a dangerous game if you try to second guess the slides. Progress does not come without a cost. Favoring trade will make Ferelden economically stronger, but it will also affect the balance of power in the realm, which can result in unruly nobles. Building a university costs money, money that could have been used to alleviate the plight of the poor. I think Alistair will focus more on stability and harmony than Anora, and this is why we won't see as much progress under his rule.

#145
Addai

Addai
  • Members
  • 25 850 messages
 MRs. posted

I addressed this upthread a little, but I don't think it's unreasonable
for the Warden to look at what is clearly a death trap and decide that
Anora's chances of getting out of it alive are much better than yours. 
You are Public Enemy #1 (and #2, if Alistair is in the party, or maybe
he is #1) and you are likely to see torture and death before it is all
said and done.  Anora is the queen, with public backing, and would be
in the hands of her father and Cauthrien who clearly thinks you're
insane for suggesting Anora is in danger.

Furthermore, by that
point my PC is usually figuring out that it is all a trap.  I usually
pick the dialogue choice early on that says "this sounds like a trap." 
(Anora then promises her unconditional support at the Landsmeet, BTW.) 
By the time you get to the room of neatly arranged Loghain soldiers,
it's all starting to seem very [alistair]  creepy  [/alistair].  And
convenient.



(Husband)

But that's all why you should do it.   You have all the different codes that heroes live by that get them into danger.


1) the Code of Chivalry and all the gaming tropes that go with it.  (i.e. - rescuing the beautiful princess)


2) the unofficial code of the Adventurer.    Where there is danger there is also gold, experience, magic items and other fantastic prizes!


and I would add

3) The Code of the Superhero.     The Greywarden reputation from being a warden already somewhat puts him in this category.    But when you add all the levels you acquire eventually make you a medieval fantasy version of comic book hero.     And of course comic book super heroes get put into death traps all the time by villians like the Joker and Lex Luthor.


Of course this is sort of a male point of view, which is why I don't think you see it.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 juin 2010 - 02:33 .


#146
nos_astra

nos_astra
  • Members
  • 5 048 messages

Xandurpein wrote...
I try to focus on what it says on the slides. I think it's a dangerous game if you try to second guess the slides.

You're interpreting the slides.

And I'm merely saying the slides don't provide enough information beyond a general tendency (Anora = progress, Alistair = stability/harmony) and sometimes they don't even provide that.

Modifié par klarabella, 16 juin 2010 - 02:41 .


#147
Addai

Addai
  • Members
  • 25 850 messages

Xandurpein wrote...
You are quite correct in describing that Alistair's reign will probably be more compassionate for the commoners and the elves. That is pretty much what I hinted in the beginning too. I wasn't talking about the commoner's though. I was talking about the merchant class.

Fair enough.

Look at the end cards. If you let Alistair live and run away to become a drunk, the end card says that there are a few minor uprisings in his name. If you let Anora kill Alistair, there is no mention of such uprisings. My conclusion is that allowing Alistair to live will probably cost many more lives than having him beheaded. I can never bring myself to do it, for emotional reasons, but I see the logic. It's not really a big issue though, as such minor peasant uprisings are of little consequence anyway.

Ah, an exiled Alistair then, not just an "alive" one.  If Alistair simply remains a Warden, there is no such chatter in the epilogues that I recall.  It does speak to the importance of the Calenhad legend in the Fereldans' sense of identity, or it could simply be troublemakers looking for a pretext.

I do understand what you're saying.  From a purely political point of view, Anora cutting the head off of her rival makes perfect sense.  My politically-minded PCs wouldn't mind if Alistair turned around and did the same to Anora, especially after she refuses to swear fealty once the Landsmeet has decided for him.

#148
Costin_Razvan

Costin_Razvan
  • Members
  • 7 010 messages
The only reason he doesn't chop her head off hardened is that he needs someone to take over should he die in the Blight..

#149
Addai

Addai
  • Members
  • 25 850 messages

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 He is a commoner, too, I might remind you, and has not grown up with the privileges that Anora has, nor with the same sense of entitlement that fires her ambition and vast self-confidence.  This is one reason why the Bhelen-Harrowmont comparison fails (other than the fact that dwarven politics is its own animal) and personally I avoid it.

Wait, what? I don't understand. Harrowmont isn't a commoner, so he doesn't compare well to Alistair in that sense, but I do find Bhelen to feel entitled and self-confident. Why does the comparison fail?

Xander is comparing Alistair to Harrowmont in terms of him representing backwardness/ status quo, whereas I see Anora as the "status quo" candidate.

 

Anora represents the status quo, and especially as far as my elves are concerned, Alistair represents the chance for a new day

I'm not sure why anyone thinks Alistair finds the plight of the elves to be a priority. Maybe just because he's not Anora? When Cailan and even Maric ruled, the elves were basically in the same place. Why is Alistair so different?

The end slides indicate that he is.  As far as in-game knowledge, my PC can look at Anora and see that she doesn't give a damn about their people.  She preens about having run the country for the past 5 years as if that is a recommendation for someone who has lived in the oppressed portion of her society.  What she should be saying is "look how Cailan messed things up, I could do better, give me a chance."

#150
Addai

Addai
  • Members
  • 25 850 messages

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aww thank you Image IPB
Yes that's what I thought. The only mention of a Golden Age is with Anora/ Cousland. Not Alistair / Anora.


I won't spam the thread with all the text, but here are the slides that I pulled out of the toolset:

*SPOILERS* Endgame Slides

Ah, strange how the memory works.  I could have sworn I saw a "Golden Age" end slide on the game where my Dalish Warden married Alistair off to Anora, remaining as his mistress.  I stand corrected.

I would also point out that the "golden age" reference in the Cousland slide is people talking about there being a golden age, not definitive.  Just to take our mCouslands' big heads down a notch.  Image IPB

Edit:  And I think it's funny my husband upthread compared Anora to Lex Luthor.  LOL

Modifié par Addai67, 16 juin 2010 - 03:34 .