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[2pac Shakur]

I wish I could have executed Anora, would have liked to finish the job after killing Loghain.

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...
Ah, strange how the memory works.  I could have sworn I saw a "Golden Age" end slide on the game where my Dalish Warden married Alistair off to Anora, remaining as his mistress.  I stand corrected.

I could have sworn this, too. Really!

You don't think this could have been changed via patch? No?

Modifié par klarabella, 16 juin 2010 - 03:46 .

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 He is a commoner, too, I might remind you, and has not grown up with the privileges that Anora has, nor with the same sense of entitlement that fires her ambition and vast self-confidence.  This is one reason why the Bhelen-Harrowmont comparison fails (other than the fact that dwarven politics is its own animal) and personally I avoid it.

Wait, what? I don't understand. Harrowmont isn't a commoner, so he doesn't compare well to Alistair in that sense, but I do find Bhelen to feel entitled and self-confident. Why does the comparison fail?

Xander is comparing Alistair to Harrowmont in terms of him representing backwardness/ status quo, whereas I see Anora as the "status quo" candidate.

Actually I did not compare Alistair to Harrowmont. I think that is not really an apt analogy. I was specifically comparing Arl Eamon to Harrowmont. If I did not make that clear, I apologize.

Of course it follows, by extension, that a unhardened Alistair as solo king would be very much influenced by Eamon and follow the same policies, but it's not quite the same as saying Alistair will always follow Eamon's sermons.
 

Modifié par Xandurpein, 16 juin 2010 - 03:49 .

[Xandurpein]

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aww thank you
Yes that's what I thought. The only mention of a Golden Age is with Anora/ Cousland. Not Alistair / Anora.

I won't spam the thread with all the text, but here are the slides that I pulled out of the toolset:

*SPOILERS* Endgame Slides

Out of curiosity. Is there any difference to the Changed Alistair/Anora slide if a female PC is Alistair's mistress or does that not affect the slides?

[phaonica]

Xandurpein wrote...

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aww thank you
Yes that's what I thought. The only mention of a Golden Age is with Anora/ Cousland. Not Alistair / Anora.

I won't spam the thread with all the text, but here are the slides that I pulled out of the toolset:

*SPOILERS* Endgame Slides

Out of curiosity. Is there any difference to the Changed Alistair/Anora slide if a female PC is Alistair's mistress or does that not affect the slides?

I couldn't find a slide that changes anything depending on whether or not the PC is mistress, so I went into the conversation tree to see if there is a flag for it, and there isn't. So PC-as-mistress apparently doesn't change the endgame slides at all.

Changing Alistair seems to affect how much interest he takes in politics, and how much influence his PC-as-Chancellor has, but it doesn't appear to affect his romance slides.

[Mdfitz]

i made anora queen the first time because alistair didnt want to and i tired to get them to marry but she wouldnt marry her fathers killer



the second time i made alistair king only for him to sacrifice himself at the end and anora was made queen anyway

[Xandurpein]

phaonica wrote...

I couldn't find a slide that changes anything depending on whether or not the PC is mistress, so I went into the conversation tree to see if there is a flag for it, and there isn't. So PC-as-mistress apparently doesn't change the endgame slides at all.

Changing Alistair seems to affect how much interest he takes in politics, and how much influence his PC-as-Chancellor has, but it doesn't appear to affect his romance slides.

That does seem to say something about the warmth in the marriage between Alistair and Anora if it's not in anyway affected by the fact that Alistair has a mistress on the side.

[phaonica]

Xandurpein wrote...

Of course it follows, by extension, that a unhardened Alistair as solo king would be very much influenced by Eamon and follow the same policies, but it's not quite the same as saying Alistair will always follow Eamon's sermons.
 

I added the PC-as-Chancellor slides to this link. Obviously, the PC-as-Chancellor is going to have a different relationship with Alistair than Eamon-as-Chancellor is going to have, but they are interesting to consider, nonetheless.

*SPOILERS* Endgame Slides

[phaonica]

Xandurpein wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I couldn't find a slide that changes anything depending on whether or not the PC is mistress, so I went into the conversation tree to see if there is a flag for it, and there isn't. So PC-as-mistress apparently doesn't change the endgame slides at all.

Changing Alistair seems to affect how much interest he takes in politics, and how much influence his PC-as-Chancellor has, but it doesn't appear to affect his romance slides.

That does seem to say something about the warmth in the marriage between Alistair and Anora if it's not in anyway affected by the fact that Alistair has a mistress on the side.

I don't know about warmth. Maybe respect and duty and smart management of the arrangement. Warmth, possibly, but not necessarily.

[Relshar]

Anora's speach before the final battle in Denerim. It was rubbish, she is not a very good public speaker. But I had to grin and bear it to get the acheivement.

[SheilaD67]

I've finished 2 play throughs - 1 where Alistair became king alone (I was gonna support Anora but she betrayed us at the Landsmeet - I was a Dalish rogue romancing Zev) and then as the Cousland noble where I became queen alongside him. There are 2 ways Alistair becomes king - you talk him into it, or he demands it in order to kill Loghain (but you have to agree as well, don't you?).

I'm playing through as a Cousland male noble to spare Loghain, betray Alistair, and marry Anora. But, I plan on other play throughs to have Anora remain as queen because it's not what Alistair wants. Ah....so many possibilities...

Modifié par Eva Galana, 16 juin 2010 - 07:34 .

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...
 Xander is comparing Alistair to Harrowmont in terms of him representing backwardness/ status quo, whereas I see Anora as the "status quo" candidate.

Xandurpein wrote...
Actually I did not compare Alistair to Harrowmont. I think that is not really an apt analogy. I was specifically comparing Arl Eamon to Harrowmont. If I did not make that clear, I apologize.

Ah. Now I understand.

Addai67 wrote...
As far as in-game knowledge, my PC can look at Anora and see that she doesn't give a damn about their people.  She preens about having run the country for the past 5 years as if that is a recommendation for someone who has lived in the oppressed portion of her society.  What she should be saying is "look how Cailan messed things up, I could do better, give me a chance."

Ok, so in the case of the elves at least, it's not so much voting *for* Alistair as it is voting *against* Anora and the status quo. I can understand that position.

[Xandurpein]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
As far as in-game knowledge, my PC can look at Anora and see that she doesn't give a damn about their people.  She preens about having run the country for the past 5 years as if that is a recommendation for someone who has lived in the oppressed portion of her society.  What she should be saying is "look how Cailan messed things up, I could do better, give me a chance."

Ok, so in the case of the elves at least, it's not so much voting *for* Alistair as it is voting *against* Anora and the status quo. I can understand that position.

I have always figured it makes sense for elves to vote for Alistair, or at least that it would take an unusually politically knowledgeable city elf to understand that Anora's rule will bring prosperity to the elves too eventually.

I suppose that very hostile dalish elf may even vote for the ruler he or she thinks will be most damaging to Ferelden's progress, as it will probably help the dalish to keep Ferelden backward.

[maxernst]

Unlike Orzammar, there's no choices you can make that will really screw Ferelden. Unhardened Alistair ruling alone is worst, but it doesn't sound like a total disaster, unlike say Harrowmont+Branka.

@phaonica, while I can see why a CE would opt for Alistair over Anora (and there are indications from the ending cards that Anora isn't good for the elves) you can ask her to improve conditions for elves as a boon.  I guess that's metagaming, though.

Modifié par maxernst, 16 juin 2010 - 08:39 .

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I couldn't find a slide that changes anything depending on whether or not the PC is mistress, so I went into the conversation tree to see if there is a flag for it, and there isn't. So PC-as-mistress apparently doesn't change the endgame slides at all.

Changing Alistair seems to affect how much interest he takes in politics, and how much influence his PC-as-Chancellor has, but it doesn't appear to affect his romance slides.

That does seem to say something about the warmth in the marriage between Alistair and Anora if it's not in anyway affected by the fact that Alistair has a mistress on the side.

I guess you mean to say that it's a business arrangement and it's that way even if there is not a Warden lover in the middle.  If so, that would be my read on Alistair-Anora.  They make a good ruling pair because both are committed enough to duty and honor that they can make a political marriage work.  I think Alistair's laid-back character would help here, too.  Here I'm thinking of the fact that he tries to take her hand when they're approaching the coronation dais (she snatches hers away).  I don't see Alistair and Anora developing any kind of closer relationship.  Too much history, too little alike, but they make a good ruling pair.

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

I suppose that very hostile dalish elf may even vote for the ruler he or she thinks will be most damaging to Ferelden's progress, as it will probably help the dalish to keep Ferelden backward.

I guess some people do play their Dalish that way.  My Warden who married Alistair + Anora and remained as mistress was a Dalish Warden, however.  I played her as being fairly cool-headed and poltiically aware, based on the fact that the keepers were Arlathan nobility so I see the Mahariel character more in terms of an inherent nobility and dignity than the "shem-hating" type. 

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I suppose that very hostile dalish elf may even vote for the ruler he or she thinks will be most damaging to Ferelden's progress, as it will probably help the dalish to keep Ferelden backward.

I guess some people do play their Dalish that way.  My Warden who married Alistair + Anora and remained as mistress was a Dalish Warden, however.  I played her as being fairly cool-headed and poltiically aware, based on the fact that the keepers were Arlathan nobility so I see the Mahariel character more in terms of an inherent nobility and dignity than the "shem-hating" type. 

Personally I see a politically and economically progressive Ferelden as a threat to the Dalish regardless of whether there is any hostility between the rulers of Ferelden and the keepers of the Dalish or not. Smaller tribal people do tend to be swept away by the winds of progress.

[phaonica]

Xandurpein wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
As far as in-game knowledge, my PC can look at Anora and see that she doesn't give a damn about their people.  She preens about having run the country for the past 5 years as if that is a recommendation for someone who has lived in the oppressed portion of her society.  What she should be saying is "look how Cailan messed things up, I could do better, give me a chance."

Ok, so in the case of the elves at least, it's not so much voting *for* Alistair as it is voting *against* Anora and the status quo. I can understand that position.

I have always figured it makes sense for elves to vote for Alistair, or at least that it would take an unusually politically knowledgeable city elf to understand that Anora's rule will bring prosperity to the elves too eventually.

I suppose that very hostile dalish elf may even vote for the ruler he or she thinks will be most damaging to Ferelden's progress, as it will probably help the dalish to keep Ferelden backward.

Letting the Warden make the final decision of who gets Ferelden's crown is such a bad idea, in general. I know it's a game mechanic, but it makes me .

[Giggles_Manically]

What would have been better if you could have Darth Vadered it.



Instead of naming a king you overthrow the monarchy and become emperor somehow.



Razorfist in his review on youtube mentioned doing this although I think he was tounge and cheek at the time.

[Xandurpein]

phaonica wrote...

Letting the Warden make the final decision of who gets Ferelden's crown is such a bad idea, in general. I know it's a game mechanic, but it makes me .

That's what you get when you grab whatever crook or misfit you can lay your hands on and kidnap them into the Grey Wardens and then act like they are worthy of awe and respect.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Letting the Warden make the final decision of who gets Ferelden's crown is such a bad idea, in general. I know it's a game mechanic, but it makes me .

I particularly feel this on a Dalish character.  I figure my DEF stands there saying, "you want me to do what?"  It's almost like a cruel joke, to put that responsibility on a Dalish elf.  Then if Ferelden's monarch turns out to be a disaster, everyone will blame it on her people.    At least with the dwarves, there is a veneer of mythology- the blessing of the ancestors- for CYA purposes.  A Dalish PC can't even blame the Maker if she makes a bad decision.

[phaonica]

Xandurpein wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Letting the Warden make the final decision of who gets Ferelden's crown is such a bad idea, in general. I know it's a game mechanic, but it makes me .

That's what you get when you grab whatever crook or misfit you can lay your hands on and kidnap them into the Grey Wardens and then act like they are worthy of awe and respect.

They're practically a group of thugs who are organized to fight darkspawn, and manage to be involved with the death of the archdemon every few hundred years... how on earth do they maintain their heroic reputation?

And it's not just that the PC is a Warden that makes it a bad idea. Are they really going to trust this decision to a Dalish? To a Dwarf? To an alienage elf? As if there aren't inherent biases that come into play?

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I suppose that very hostile dalish elf may even vote for the ruler he or she thinks will be most damaging to Ferelden's progress, as it will probably help the dalish to keep Ferelden backward.

I guess some people do play their Dalish that way.  My Warden who married Alistair + Anora and remained as mistress was a Dalish Warden, however.  I played her as being fairly cool-headed and poltiically aware, based on the fact that the keepers were Arlathan nobility so I see the Mahariel character more in terms of an inherent nobility and dignity than the "shem-hating" type. 

Personally I see a politically and economically progressive Ferelden as a threat to the Dalish regardless of whether there is any hostility between the rulers of Ferelden and the keepers of the Dalish or not. Smaller tribal people do tend to be swept away by the winds of progress.

The Dalish of Ferelden must integrate more or die anyway.  At least, that's my Dalish perspective, and the one the game puts forward as what marked the PC's father.  It can be done.  It seems to work well in Rivain, for instance.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 juin 2010 - 09:40 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I cant stand the Dalish 90% of the time. They continually go on and on about the shems. Yet dont do anything about their lives. I kinda feel dumb when I realized that the Dalish get lands anyway and I wasted my damn boon on it.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...
I particularly feel this on a Dalish character.  I figure my DEF stands there saying, "you want me to do what?"  It's almost like a cruel joke, to put that responsibility on a Dalish elf.  Then if Ferelden's monarch turns out to be a disaster, everyone will blame it on her people.   

Ugh, that's true. What a mess.