223 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

Even my human noble PC wasn't overly thrilled about having to choose the ruler of Ferelden--he'd have much preferred to let the Landsmeet make up its own mind, as long as whoever was on the throne didn't get in his way of fighting the blight. One of the reasons I stuck Anora on the throne was that I agreed with her that putting one of our own on the throne made the Wardens look power-hungry.



And as for Orzammar, oh my first PC hated that decision as a total outsider He went with Harrowmont mostly because he didn't think the Wardens should be trying to reshape Dwarven society. My current PC (elf mage) had no qualms about Orzammar, however. She didn't feel she need to know any more than she did to decide their society needed to be blown up, so she picked Bhelen.

[Swoo]

phaonica wrote...

[Grey Wardens] practically a group of thugs who are organized to fight darkspawn, and manage to be involved with the death of the archdemon every few hundred years... how on earth do they maintain their heroic reputation?

See, I have a slight disconnect with this statement. I agree wholeheartedly that there are many Grey Wardens who came from a less than lawful background, but as Daveth proved they are willing to take up the Heroes Journey for the greater good. The reputation they earn is a reality polished by fairy tales; They are men and women who give up everything - sometimes their very souls - to fight a thankless war that no matter what happens, no matter how good they are, or how far they run, or how much luck falls on their side, ends with them dead. There has to be a grim determination there we don't see since our only true experience with Warden's is a wisecracking, barely seasoning recruit and one who went through the Joining and then found himself flying solo.

From the eyes of the everyman, they have to appear as heroes of legend. Masses of men and women who show up in the worst spots of Ferelden and do not quit, ever, and living a life of constant combat and death they all have to be rather skilled fighters. When most commoners have guards or maybe a lower nobleman trained in the blade or sporatic tourney's to base fighting prowess on, seeing the lands version of special forces has to be mind blowing.

But I like that the reality is a lot dirtier than the shining platemail carried upon a griffon as well.

[maxernst]

But if they really follow the philosophy of recruiting ANYBODY who can fight (as Riordan implies), they're going to wind up with an organization full of people like Vaughn. And simply being skilled fighters isn't going to be enough for them to retain the respect of people if they have to lock up their daughters every time the Wardens are in town.



The thing is that a philosophy like that only works in situations like the Legion of the Dead where they're essentially exiled from society. Grey Wardens continue to interact with society and if they don't recruit for character as well as skill, they'll be made up of bandits who shake down the populace under the guise of raising money to stop the blight.



Of course, in actual practice none of the Grey Wardens we meet seem to be like this, which probably means that the criminals they actually recruit are either basically honorable people who've made horrible mistakes or were greatly disadvantaged and never had an opportunity to make an honest living. But that's not what Riordan says.

[phaonica]

maxernst wrote...

But if they really follow the philosophy of recruiting ANYBODY who can fight (as Riordan implies), they're going to wind up with an organization full of people like Vaughn. And simply being skilled fighters isn't going to be enough for them to retain the respect of people if they have to lock up their daughters every time the Wardens are in town.

The thing is that a philosophy like that only works in situations like the Legion of the Dead where they're essentially exiled from society. Grey Wardens continue to interact with society and if they don't recruit for character as well as skill, they'll be made up of bandits who shake down the populace under the guise of raising money to stop the blight.

Of course, in actual practice none of the Grey Wardens we meet seem to be like this, which probably means that the criminals they actually recruit are either basically honorable people who've made horrible mistakes or were greatly disadvantaged and never had an opportunity to make an honest living. But that's not what Riordan says.

This is all true and I concede that "thug" is too strong of a word. They do have to have some discretion when recruiting, and I'm sure that most of the people who join of their own will are those who buy into the honor or glory of fighting the darkspawn.

Swoo wrote...
From the eyes of the everyman, they have to appear as heroes of legend. Masses of men and women who show up in the worst spots of Ferelden and do not quit, ever, and living a life of constant combat and death they all have to be rather skilled fighters. When most commoners have guards or maybe a lower nobleman trained in the blade or sporatic tourney's to base fighting prowess on, seeing the lands version of special forces has to be mind blowing.

But I like that the reality is a lot dirtier than the shining platemail carried upon a griffon as well.

Ok, yes, I stand corrected on both accounts.

Still, anyone who can see past the Wardens as being 'heroes' and suspecting what the reality is... they should know not to give one the sole decision at the Landsmeet, especially during a Blight.

[Swoo]

phaonica wrote...
Still, anyone who can see past the Wardens as being 'heroes' and suspecting what the reality is... they should know not to give one the sole decision at the Landsmeet, especially during a Blight.

Oh absolutely and 99% of the time I would totally agree, at least in this vote there are some extenuating circumstances. You've pulled the Dwarves, Dalish, Templars, and Circle of Magi under your banner. You have managed to get the Arl of Redcliffe and many of the prominent Bannorn backing you. You most likely have some 'legendary' stories of your exploits floating around. You have that 'Grey Warden mystique' working as much for you as against you. It's also a 50/50 chance you have that 'air of nobility' on you as well being a Cousland or Aeducan.

So I can at least see how you'd have the appearance of power and pull in this vote compared to say, Duncan walking into the Landsmeet and trying to give counsel or political advice/votes.

But that's just me trying to rationalize the plot-hammer. Who knows in the end?

[Asdara]

Well you've got your Warden's like the murderous City Elf who had a very compelling reason to stick the knife in that guy... then you have your Daveths who are willing to give up a life of crime because they believe in the cause... your apostates who are happy to be free and therefore willing to serve like Anders... sole heir nobles with no choice... criminal castless dwarves who didn't get to choose being born at all (or they probably would have passed)... Templar bastard heirs like Alistair... your Jory types who want the glory and complete to have it...

So far I'm not seeing the band of thugs. Sure, some of them have what we call "a past" but the Warden philosophy is that you cut yourself off from your past, from your ties, and devote yourself to the cause and the Order.

The PC is a unique circumstance of being forced into a highly active social personage by the fact that they have to rally the entire country and all its races for the coming Blight with only two Wardens on hand to deal with the situation. I don't think it is commonplace for Grey Wardens to be nearly so active in any sphere as the PC is - before during and after a Blight - and the after part comes of being the Hero of Ferelden more than anything else, which is a rare position as an archdemon is slain only every few hundred years.

Of course... you get your Sophia Dryden types as well I guess, but even she had her hand at least partially forced by the pleas from the nobles to lead a rebellion against a tyrant.

I don't think the Wardens accept "just anyone" all the time either - Duncan is particularly pressed for numbers given the situation, but he doesn't enlist everyone he meets either. He doesn't take half the Alienage when he recruits the City Elf, nor a pack of Dalish, nor a dip into the Legion of the Dead numbers while he's about his business of looking for *worthy* recruits. Skills are important but character matters as well - they will take *help* from all quarters, but this does not mean actually Joining everyone who comes to the front step.

Edit:
Also Riordan says that Duncan had a particular soft spot for recruiting - so we cannot assume that his personal practices are indicative of the entire Grey Warden recruiting policy overall, despite the fact that it is all we, as the player, receive direct experience with.

Modifié par Asdara, 17 juin 2010 - 03:05 .

[Xandurpein]

Asdara wrote...

I don't think the Wardens accept "just anyone" all the time either - Duncan is particularly pressed for numbers given the situation, but he doesn't enlist everyone he meets either. He doesn't take half the Alienage when he recruits the City Elf, nor a pack of Dalish, nor a dip into the Legion of the Dead numbers while he's about his business of looking for *worthy* recruits. Skills are important but character matters as well - they will take *help* from all quarters, but this does not mean actually Joining everyone who comes to the front step.

There is plenty of hints that the joining is almost certainly fatal to all but a few exceptional individuals. That is why Duncan is looking everywhere to find possible recruits. It's not about the standards needed to be allowed to join, as it is the standards needed to be able to join the Grey Wardens.

We don't know the details about how a senior Grey Warden recognizes a possible recruit. Sadly we get no information in the Awakening either, but my guess is that the fact that only the PC survives that joining is that Duncan has been forced by the emergency to gamble with recruits that normally wouldn't have been allowed to go through the ritual.

This is probably also why the Grey Wardens seem to be prepared to overlook the recruits' past, they can't just pick and choose who they want. Riordan concludes that Loghain is such an exceptional individual, and he was going to be stripped of land and titles anyway, so for him it makes perfect sense to make Loghain go through the joining.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 17 juin 2010 - 10:32 .

[nos_astra]

Xandurpein wrote...
We don't know the details about how a senior Grey Warden recognizes a possible recruit. Sadly we get no information in the Awakening either, but my guess is that the fact that only the PC survives that joining is that Duncan has been forced by the emergency to gamble with recruits that normally wouldn't have been allowed to go through the ritual.

And in Awakening our characters know how to pick recruits? It seems pretty random on who they recruit. I think, it's wild guessing. They may have a personal preference and form some kind of pattern but that's rather coincidence than real knowledge.

Why would anyone recruit Loghain from a standpoint of survival? He's over 50 years old.  He can still handle a blade but should be no measure for a trained fighter who is 25 years younger. He is paranoid and delusional. He's insanely stubborn (that's probably why the character autoleveled with an insane amount of willpower), I'll give him that. He's probably one of the best fighters among men of his age. And he was once a hero and people may still look up to him.

Modifié par klarabella, 17 juin 2010 - 10:36 .

[Xandurpein]

klarabella wrote...

Why would anyone recruit Loghain from a standpoint of survival? He's over 50 years old.  He can still handle a blade but should be no measure for a trained fighter who is 25 years younger. He is paranoid and delusional. He's insanely stubborn (that's probably why the character autoleveled with an insane amount of willpower), I'll give him that. He's probably one of the best fighters among men of his age. And he was once a hero and people may still look up to him.

I can see "insanely stubborn" as a very positive trait in a man asked to try and kill an Archdemon. I do admit that the ease with which we can make our followers Grey Wardens in Awakening doesn't make sense, but I know that there are references in the game that heavily hints that "ordinary" people won't survive the joining.

I think that if Loghain is allowed to join, he wouldn't be the first looser in a political or dynastic struggle that was sent to join the Grey Wardens. Just as some noblemen that became a liability in the real world, could be forced to become priests so they couldn't marry or hold titles.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 17 juin 2010 - 10:57 .

[Asdara]

Xandurpein wrote...

Asdara wrote...

I don't think the Wardens accept "just anyone" all the time either - Duncan is particularly pressed for numbers given the situation, but he doesn't enlist everyone he meets either. He doesn't take half the Alienage when he recruits the City Elf, nor a pack of Dalish, nor a dip into the Legion of the Dead numbers while he's about his business of looking for *worthy* recruits. Skills are important but character matters as well - they will take *help* from all quarters, but this does not mean actually Joining everyone who comes to the front step.

There is plenty of hints that the joining is almost certainly fatal to all but a few exceptional individuals. That is why Duncan is looking everywhere to find possible recruits. It's not about the standards needed to be allowed to join, as it is the standards needed to be able to join the Grey Wardens.

We don't know the details about how a senior Grey Warden recognizes a possible recruit. Sadly we get no information in the Awakening either, but my guess is that the fact that only the PC survives that joining is that Duncan has been forced by the emergency to gamble with recruits that normally wouldn't have been allowed to go through the ritual.

This is probably also why the Grey Wardens seem to be prepared to overlook the recruits' past, they can't just pick and choose who they want. Riordan concludes that Loghain is such an exceptional individual, and he was going to be stripped of land and titles anyway, so for him it makes perfect sense to make Loghain go through the joining.

Well it is a bit early in the morning so if I'm completely addled here I blame that in advance.

It seemed, to me at least, that there was no way of knowing who would survive the Joining and who would not - and no matter how hard pressed Duncan might have been there would be no point in killing people he had the idea wouldn't make it.  One person died during Alistair's Joining as well and I think Riordan may or may not mention the survival rate of his and Duncan's Joining in the distant past if you ask (that could be the dust in my eyes talking).  People with skill, talent, or a certain disposition - a certain amount of will - seem to be what the Wardens look for and they HOPE they survive to join them.  

[maxernst]

Xandurpein wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Why would anyone recruit Loghain from a standpoint of survival? He's over 50 years old.  He can still handle a blade but should be no measure for a trained fighter who is 25 years younger. He is paranoid and delusional. He's insanely stubborn (that's probably why the character autoleveled with an insane amount of willpower), I'll give him that. He's probably one of the best fighters among men of his age. And he was once a hero and people may still look up to him.

I can see "insanely stubborn" as a very positive trait in a man asked to try and kill an Archdemon. I do admit that the ease with which we can make our followers Grey Wardens in Awakening doesn't make sense, but I know that there are references in the game that heavily hints that "ordinary" people won't survive the joining.

I think that if Loghain is allowed to join, he wouldn't be the first looser in a political or dynastic struggle that was sent to join the Grey Wardens. Just as some noblemen that became a liability in the real world, could be forced to become priests so they couldn't marry or hold titles.

I'm sure he wouldn't.  The situation seems analogous to going on the Crusades...a fair number of noblemen used that as an "out" for sticky political situations at home.

While being stubborn in general might be an asset, stubborn about believing there's no blight and the Wardens are agents of Orlais is not.  And he really did strike me as delusional at Landsmeet.  Maybe he's so stubborn, he'd go all the way to the roof of Fort Drakon and deny that the Archdemon was there.

[Xandurpein]

Asdara wrote...

It seemed, to me at least, that there was no way of knowing who would survive the Joining and who would not - and no matter how hard pressed Duncan might have been there would be no point in killing people he had the idea wouldn't make it.  One person died during Alistair's Joining as well and I think Riordan may or may not mention the survival rate of his and Duncan's Joining in the distant past if you ask (that could be the dust in my eyes talking).  People with skill, talent, or a certain disposition - a certain amount of will - seem to be what the Wardens look for and they HOPE they survive to join them.  

If it's willpower and determination that they need, they could certainly choose a lot worse than Loghain I suppose.

[LobselVith8]

Xandurpein wrote...

I have always figured it makes sense for elves to vote for Alistair, or at least that it would take an unusually politically knowledgeable city elf to understand that Anora's rule will bring prosperity to the elves too eventually.

Prosperity? That seems like a big assumption to make. Anora is willing to clamp down on the elves the moment that she thinks they get out of line because they demand food. She's done nothing to improve their lot when she was running Ferelden for the past five years, and after she's rescued, despite living in in the same city and having an elven aide at her side, she can't imagine why the elves would be upset. Anora's plans likely mean "the rich get richer, the poor get poorer," and nothing changes for the elves.

Alistair goes against tradition by giving the Dalish the Hinterlands (up to and including Ostagar), putting a mage as a court advisor because he also wants to improve the lot of the mages, and allowing the Elder of the Alienage amongst his royal court in the face of it being a scandal amongst the nobility.

Anora's ambitions for a university and progress likely wouldn't include elves unless she was married to Alistair, who makes it a concern regardless of whether or not the Warden is an elf. I think putting them together would be a safe bet for real progress to be achieved, since they both have an interest in the future of Ferelden and can work together to see their goals achieved.

[Sarah1281]

Alistair goes against tradition by giving the Dalish the Hinterlands (up to and including Ostagar), putting a mage as a court advisor because he also wants to improve the lot of the mages, and allowing the Elder of the Alienage amongst his royal court in the face of it being a scandal amongst the nobility.

I'll give you the last one but Anora gives the Dalish land if they fight during the Blight and Wynne accepts the position of court mage under the same conditions that she would for Alistair.



Also, if Anora moves Ferelden forward into progress then while the 'eventually' for the elves to share it in may not be during her rule, the direction she heads the country towards will almost HAVE to include the elves once it's progressed enough.

[Sarah1281]

The elves are a part of Ferelden.

[Maria13]

jln.francisco wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The elves are a part of Ferelden.

Ok, I left myself open for that. I should have explained myself better.

Strengthening a state does not mean raising the quality of life for all it citizens. Generally speaking it means improving the military or an increase in trade. Both can lead to improvements amongst the lower classes (especially trade) but it is no marker for acceptance into a society or improvement of quality of life.

For example should trade increase and a need for workers rise, odds are you'd find those jobs filled by elves (for pennies most likely) until jobless humans become irate at having to compete with a lesser people for work. This would lead to lots of public violence against elves throughout Fereldan and because of their place in the mind of the higher ups and in the eyes of the law, elves would be unable to retaliate. It would be the exact same situation they are in now except the scenery they can sometimes see from the Alienage would be a bit prettier.

It depends on your definition of strength does it not?  If you mean military strength then obviously you can say the state is stronger if you strengthen its army.  If you say economic strength then you could go the way of bolstering trade and production at any cost, but that might eventually blow up in your face when you create an unequal society that ends up fragmenting or a production orientated but repressive society like soviet russia.

Equally a strong society could be socially cohesive society where you seek not only to improve the economy but also the lot of most citizens on as equal a footing as possible....

[Kaizer88]

For those who made Anoura queen, did anyone factor in their decision on the documents retrieved at Ostagar indicating Anoura was barren (or maybe Cailan was just uninterested in the charms of women)?



In the long run, picking Anoura would most likely cause a huge succession war as she's incapable of producing an heir of her own blood.

[Sarah1281]

Kaizer88 wrote...

For those who made Anoura queen, did anyone factor in their decision on the documents retrieved at Ostagar indicating Anoura was barren (or maybe Cailan was just uninterested in the charms of women)?

In the long run, picking Anoura would most likely cause a huge succession war as she's incapable of producing an heir of her own blood.

Did anyone else factor in the fact that the taint makes Alistair unlikely to be able to have a non-DR child? And if Anora names someone non-related to her as heir there won't be a crisis once she passes.

[Kaizer88]

Except for the Arls most likely being resistant to someone without Maric's bloodline. And what would be wrong with Alistair's seed? From Morrigan's dialogue, gray wardens seem far more hardy than other mortals.

[okiness]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Kaizer88 wrote...

For those who made Anoura queen, did anyone factor in their decision on the documents retrieved at Ostagar indicating Anoura was barren (or maybe Cailan was just uninterested in the charms of women)?

In the long run, picking Anoura would most likely cause a huge succession war as she's incapable of producing an heir of her own blood.

Did anyone else factor in the fact that the taint makes Alistair unlikely to be able to have a non-DR child? And if Anora names someone non-related to her as heir there won't be a crisis once she passes.

  Same for Alistair, he can just name an heir. But on that note COUGH COUGH THE CALLING COUGH COUGH. 

[Sarah1281]

Kaizer88 wrote...

Except for the Arls most likely being resistant to someone without Maric's bloodline. And what would be wrong with Alistair's seed? From Morrigan's dialogue, gray wardens seem far more hardy than other mortals.

Not everyone is as traditional as Eamon and if there are no more Theirins, not even the most traditional of people can pitch a fit there isn't one on the throne. Besides, not even Eamon makes a fuss if you put Anora on the throne by herself and execute the last of the Theirins. I mean, he's kind of pissy afterwards but hardly anything serious. Also, did you NOT get Alistair's whole 'BTW, GW have huge fertility problems' speech? They may or may not really all have great stamina but they have problems conceiving. Two GW can't do it by natural means and one alone is highly unlikely. Morrigan has to use the ritual to even get pregnant at all, not to mention the other things it did (whatever those were).

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Kaizer88 wrote...

Except for the Arls most likely being resistant to someone without Maric's bloodline. And what would be wrong with Alistair's seed? From Morrigan's dialogue, gray wardens seem far more hardy than other mortals.

Not everyone is as traditional as Eamon and if there are no more Theirins, not even the most traditional of people can pitch a fit there isn't one on the throne. Besides, not even Eamon makes a fuss if you put Anora on the throne by herself and execute the last of the Theirins. I mean, he's kind of pissy afterwards but hardly anything serious. Also, did you NOT get Alistair's whole 'BTW, GW have huge fertility problems' speech? They may or may not really all have great stamina but they have problems conceiving. Two GW can't do it by natural means and one alone is highly unlikely. Morrigan has to use the ritual to even get pregnant at all, not to mention the other things it did (whatever those were).

Actually, Morrigan can get pregnant without the ritual, it's only needed to place the soul of the Old God into the child. If the Warden sleeps with her but doesn't do the dark ritual, her epilogue states that she's with child. I'd assume from this that it's possible Alistair can have a child (it's only impossible for two Grey Wardens to have a child together).

Regarding Anora being able to conceive, I doubt Eamon's claims about Anora's infertility. Cailan cheated on her and didn't have any progeny with the women he slept with, so likely the issue was with him being unable to sire any children.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 août 2010 - 09:10 .