223 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, Morrigan can get pregnant without the ritual, it's only needed to place the soul of the Old God into the child. Regarding Anora being able to conceive, I doubt Eamon's claims about Anora's infertility. Cailan cheated on her and didn't have any progeny with the women he slept with, so maybe the issue was with him being unable to sire any children.

I know she can. Part of the ritual, though, was to ensure she'd get pregnant right then.

[Aurelet]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

She betrays you when escaping if you give up her cover which she asked you not to do. If you don't go hey there is Anora she won't say anything about you kidnapping her, or if at Eamon's estate you tell her your going to make Alistair king no matter what and kill her father then she will betray you at the Landsmeet.

I like Anora she is one of my more favorite NPCs. She is has proven to be a great Queen even the Empress of Orlais said she was the best Fereldon had to offer. I always keep her on the throne she is proven, intelligent, ambitious and reasonable, but you can't control her like Alistair. I either let her rule solo, and let Alistair continue being a Grey Warden, or I wed her let Alistair stay a Grey Warden. Though I am considering wedding her and Alistair, but I really don't want to hook my man Alistair up with her I don't think he is ready yet for a women like Anora, but I read the epilogue and it says they do quite well together.

She also betrays you at the Landsmeet if you don't tell her you'll support her bid for the Throne.

[Sarah1281]

Aurelet wrote...

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

She betrays you when escaping if you give up her cover which she asked you not to do. If you don't go hey there is Anora she won't say anything about you kidnapping her, or if at Eamon's estate you tell her your going to make Alistair king no matter what and kill her father then she will betray you at the Landsmeet.

I like Anora she is one of my more favorite NPCs. She is has proven to be a great Queen even the Empress of Orlais said she was the best Fereldon had to offer. I always keep her on the throne she is proven, intelligent, ambitious and reasonable, but you can't control her like Alistair. I either let her rule solo, and let Alistair continue being a Grey Warden, or I wed her let Alistair stay a Grey Warden. Though I am considering wedding her and Alistair, but I really don't want to hook my man Alistair up with her I don't think he is ready yet for a women like Anora, but I read the epilogue and it says they do quite well together.

She also betrays you at the Landsmeet if you don't tell her you'll support her bid for the Throne.

He said that.

[Wedger]

jln.francisco wrote...

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...
I like Anora she is one of my more favorite NPCs. She is has proven to be a great Queen even the Empress of Orlais said she was the best Fereldon had to offer.

This is gonna be really nit picky but,

Anora is an effective administrator and very respected ruler. These things do not make her great. She is percieved as very cultured which is something people are naturally drawn to. Her silver tongue and political wit create a sort of regal aura and is probably what whatever her name from Orlais is responding to.

I've a few other reasons for thinking she isn't 'great' but that has to do with my personal view on greatness and I won't bore you all with that.

Celene I may have been poking fun at Ferelden.  Like saying Ferelden's sure love their dogs while viewing a close Ferelsen couple. 

Is Hawke making a trip to Orlais?

[Persephone]

Anora all the way. I usually make Alistair marry Anora. Best overall solution. As for Alistair being blood, not a good argument. He is a bastard, not a legimitate child of the king.

[Persephone]

jln.francisco wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Anora all the way. I usually make Alistair marry Anora. Best overall solution. As for Alistair being blood, not a good argument. He is a bastard, not a legimitate child of the king.

Largely irrelevent as far as deciding who succeeds the king. Alistair is of royal blood and there are no other heirs. 

But the whole 'Divine Right' to rule business is absurd and should be ignored. Leaders should be decided upon by talent and aptitude.

Not irrelevant at all, in fact. If someone is/is viewed as a bastard, succeeding a king is problematic. Once again, look at Elizabeth I. Catholic Europe considered her Henry VIII's bastard and wanted Mary Stuart on the throne. Henry VIII even mentioned in his will (No such luck in Alistair's case) that Elizabeth should inherit if his son Edward and daughter Mary died childless. Elizabeth still had to fight rebellions and uprisings in Mary's name (Same reason Anora wants Alistair executed, to avoid such uprisings) and eventually had Mary Stuart executed. England loved her and wanted her to rule (Another plus Alistair doesn't share, since he is an unknown nobody), yet she still faced horrific odds because many considered her a low born bastard.

[Persephone]

jln.francisco wrote...

Persephone wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Anora all the way. I usually make Alistair marry Anora. Best overall solution. As for Alistair being blood, not a good argument. He is a bastard, not a legimitate child of the king.

Largely irrelevent as far as deciding who succeeds the king. Alistair is of royal blood and there are no other heirs. 

But the whole 'Divine Right' to rule business is absurd and should be ignored. Leaders should be decided upon by talent and aptitude.

Not irrelevant at all, in fact. If someone is/is viewed as a bastard, succeeding a king is problematic. Once again, look at Elizabeth I. Catholic Europe considered her Henry VIII's bastard and wanted Mary Stuart on the throne. Henry VIII even mentioned in his will (No such luck in Alistair's case) that Elizabeth should inherit if his son Edward and daughter Mary died childless. Elizabeth still had to fight rebellions and uprisings in Mary's name (Same reason Anora wants Alistair executed, to avoid such uprisings) and eventually had Mary Stuart executed. England loved her and wanted her to rule (Another plus Alistair doesn't share, since he is an unknown nobody), yet she still faced horrific odds because many considered her a low born bastard.

That's a different case. Elizabeth was a protestant, while Mary was a Catholic. Much of the upheavel and nastiness of that time period had a lot to do with the religious tension created by suddenly changing the Faith of the nation. Had Alistair been some kind of heretic or follower of the Tevinter Chantry I don't doubt there would have been hell if he tried to take the throne. But as he was one of the faithful (at least in the eyes of most) none of that was present.

Religion played a large part in it as well. But her "suspicious" birth did too. Scenarios were royal bastards actually inherited are rare at best.

[maxernst]

I actually don't think that a bastard who was never publicly acknowledged during the King's lifetime has much of a claim at all, though really, neither does Anora unless Ferelden has very unusual succession laws...which it might. After all, the first in line for inheritance in modern succession laws is the wife...in medieval times, in many societies women couldn't inherit at all. It's arguable that perhaps modern inheritance laws are more applicable to Ferelden than medieval ones since the status of women seems higher than it was in our world (maybe owing to the Chantry?)



Also, keep in mind that Ferelden does not subscribe to a divine right of Kings theory--they explicitly say in the codex that power flows up from below. What this implies to me is that the Landsmeet could choose whoever they damn well please as King, particularly in a case where the legal succession is murky. I'm visualizing a situation like the Holy Roman Empire where the Electors didn't always choose the Emperor's first-born to succeed him.

[jpdipity]

jln.francisco wrote...

Persephone wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Anora all the way. I usually make Alistair marry Anora. Best overall solution. As for Alistair being blood, not a good argument. He is a bastard, not a legimitate child of the king.

Largely irrelevent as far as deciding who succeeds the king. Alistair is of royal blood and there are no other heirs. 

But the whole 'Divine Right' to rule business is absurd and should be ignored. Leaders should be decided upon by talent and aptitude.

Not irrelevant at all, in fact. If someone is/is viewed as a bastard, succeeding a king is problematic. Once again, look at Elizabeth I. Catholic Europe considered her Henry VIII's bastard and wanted Mary Stuart on the throne. Henry VIII even mentioned in his will (No such luck in Alistair's case) that Elizabeth should inherit if his son Edward and daughter Mary died childless. Elizabeth still had to fight rebellions and uprisings in Mary's name (Same reason Anora wants Alistair executed, to avoid such uprisings) and eventually had Mary Stuart executed. England loved her and wanted her to rule (Another plus Alistair doesn't share, since he is an unknown nobody), yet she still faced horrific odds because many considered her a low born bastard.

That's a different case. Elizabeth was a protestant, while Mary was a Catholic. Much of the upheavel and nastiness of that time period had a lot to do with the religious tension created by suddenly changing the Faith of the nation. Had Alistair been some kind of heretic or follower of the Tevinter Chantry I don't doubt there would have been hell if he tried to take the throne. But as he was one of the faithful (at least in the eyes of most) none of that was present.

Completely agree with jln.francisco here - that was all about religion.  Elizabeth I was not a bastard - she was born after Queen Anne was crowned.  The catholic church branded her a bastard simply because they did not want to acknowledge Queen Anne as a legitimate Queen - it was an excuse created by the church.  The battle for who would rule was about religious control in England and not the legitimacy of Elizabeth's birth.

Bastards seem to have legitimate claims to the throne in Fereldan.  In the Calling, Fiona states that she does not want her child to be an "heir" and Alistair mentions that he hidden to prevent him from competing for the throne against Cailan.  The fact that a bastard child could be a threat to Cailan's claim to the throne shows that blood is more important than marital status in Fereldan. 

[maxernst]

Well...the reality is that Henry VIII's divorce from Catherine of Aragon was never recognized by the Catholic church, so from their point of view, of course she was illegitimate. Even if she had been Catholic, that would not have changed their view of Henry's marriage, though they probably would have been less inclined to worry about it. On the other hand, there was ample precedent for children from annulled marriages being taken out of the succession line, so protestants could (and did) use that argument against Mary.



While it's true bastards occasionally inherited it usually happened either when they were annointed heir by their father's (eg. William the Conqueror) or placed on the throne by some powerful noble, often by force after a civil war...which of course is analogous to the situation here. It's pretty safe to say that bastards were never automatically placed in the succession line and even rumors of illegitimacy could scuttle a bid to inherit. When Henry IV died in Castile, the legitimacy of his wife's daughter (Joanna, the wife of the King of Portugal) was questioned and a war broke out which ultimately placed his niece Isabella on the throne.

[ArawnNox]

In my first game, my Cousland and Alistair took the throne, so Anora was tossed in prison. It was a bit of meta-gaming on my part, I didn't really think about the politics of it. Though, one could justify that with a Cousland, hardened, and some good advisors, Alistair's rule would have been fair, if troubled by irritated banns (I didn't get the Landsmeet's support, so I doubt the ruling nobles would have just sat back and allowed the rulership change without at least being troublesome, but not openly rebellious.)

My second game I tried to get Alistair and Anora to wed, figuring it was the best political comprimise: a figurehead for the army, and an effective governess for the nobility, as well as Alistair's Therin blood to satisfy the traditionalists that only cared about that sort of thing. However, my character then spared Loghain out of compassion and Alistair flipped out and left (as he was unhardened, I couldn't convince him to go through with it anyway). So, it ended up as only Anora, on the throne, but being the type of character I was playing at the time, he kept Alistair's head from getting chopped off.

Which brings me to a point: If for no other reason, I hate Loghain because of his stats and talents. Oh my god. I spent the entire end of the game trying to keep his sorry butt alive. Man was I ticked.

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

Well...the reality is that Henry VIII's divorce from Catherine of Aragon was never recognized by the Catholic church, so from their point of view, of course she was illegitimate. Even if she had been Catholic, that would not have changed their view of Henry's marriage, though they probably would have been less inclined to worry about it. On the other hand, there was ample precedent for children from annulled marriages being taken out of the succession line, so protestants could (and did) use that argument against Mary.

While it's true bastards occasionally inherited it usually happened either when they were annointed heir by their father's (eg. William the Conqueror) or placed on the throne by some powerful noble, often by force after a civil war...which of course is analogous to the situation here. It's pretty safe to say that bastards were never automatically placed in the succession line and even rumors of illegitimacy could scuttle a bid to inherit. When Henry IV died in Castile, the legitimacy of his wife's daughter (Joanna, the wife of the King of Portugal) was questioned and a war broke out which ultimately placed his niece Isabella on the throne.

Agree 100% with your points and would just add that Henry VIII's own vacillation between his possible heirs did nothing to help the situation.  On the subject of bastards, he was prepared to put his bastard son William Fitzroy into the succession if the child had not died.  Likewise Maric could have averted everything if he had recognized Alistair as next in line after Cailan.  Trying to "spare" his son (if that's what he in fact was doing with Alistair) was possibly the stupidest idea he came up with, especially after Alistair's paternity was out of the bag.  He should have known from his own life that you can't run.

As for royal blood and the like, traditionalism for its own sake is not really the point (or all of the point, anyway) for keeping a Theirin on the throne.  The legend of Calenhad is the main thing.  Even Anora and Loghain try to appropriate this mantle for her rule, but can only do so by proxy.

And not to beat a dead horse from the 50 other threads where I've said this, but Anora's "greatness" is called into question by what she allows or cannot stop from happening under her rule.  Either Alistair or Anora can become great rulers, but neither are that as we see them in Origins.  As for marrying them off, that is only the best solution if you happen to not be Alistair, Anora, or the consort who either could rule with one of them happily and/or who could provide one of them with an heir.  Political marriages formed under duress have their own disadvantages.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 août 2010 - 06:08 .

[Sarah1281]

jln.francisco wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
As for marrying them off, that is only the best solution if you happen to not be Alistair, Anora, or the consort who either could rule with one of them happily and/or who could provide one of them with an heir.  Political marriages formed under duress have their own disadvantages.

Yeah, I always wonder how some people can say "Just marry them. Best of both worlds."

You all realize that's not really solving anything, right? It's probably just setting up a score of future issues down the road. 

Probably because when doing that you're trying to get the best possible outcome for Ferelden (regardless of whether it is or not) and aren't really worried about the feelings of the rulers involved. I also don't think it's fair to bring up hypothetical consorts (Anora never has any) who may or may not have a rainbow-and-sunshine marriage to Alistair. Seriously, Alistair being happy with his spouse (and given he's King he'd have to marry someone of the nobility and not for love anyway) has little if anything to do with what's best for Ferelden.

Edit: Anora has no children without Alistair and we never hear if she manages one with him or with a male Cousland. Alistair we never hear anything on at all. Just because there may not be royal children does not mean either of them are so irresponsible after what happened when Cailan died to not name a non-child of theirs as heir.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 07 août 2010 - 06:30 .

[ArawnNox]

jln.francisco wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
As for marrying them off, that is only the best solution if you happen to not be Alistair, Anora, or the consort who either could rule with one of them happily and/or who could provide one of them with an heir.  Political marriages formed under duress have their own disadvantages.

Yeah, I always wonder how some people can say "Just marry them. Best of both worlds."

You all realize that's not really solving anything, right? It's probably just setting up a score of future issues down the road. 

I'm not disagreeing, but there's little reason to say it will or won't work without glancing around for real world historical presidence. Ferelden, to me, is still a country in transition from a collection of tribal warlords united under a charismatic leader to a singular national identity. Not unlike ancient Egypt, Ghengis Khan's Russia, Three Kingdoms China, or a hoste of other real world protonations.
That being said, all we can really do is debate and conjecture until Bioware releases a game expanding on Post-Blight Ferelden, beyond the snippits of epilogue.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Probably because when doing that you're trying to get the best possible outcome for Ferelden (regardless of whether it is or not) and aren't really worried about the feelings of the rulers involved. I also don't think it's fair to bring up hypothetical consorts (Anora never has any) who may or may not have a rainbow-and-sunshine marriage to Alistair. Seriously, Alistair being happy with his spouse (and given he's King he'd have to marry someone of the nobility and not for love anyway) has little if anything to do with what's best for Ferelden.

Edit: Anora has no children without Alistair and we never hear if she manages one with him or with a male Cousland. Alistair we never hear anything on at all. Just because there may not be royal children does not mean either of them are so irresponsible after what happened when Cailan died to not name a non-child of theirs as heir.

The only thing you know without metagame knowledge is that they hate each other and in five years Anora has not produced an heir even with a king she is fond of (whether that is hers or Cailan's "fault" is not relevant).  It's not too much of a stretch to conclude that either one or the other will have a better shot at a stable reign and producing an heir if they are allowed to rule alone.  That is thinking about Ferelden, thinking about it long-term and not just short-term re. ending the civil war.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Probably because when doing that you're trying to get the best possible outcome for Ferelden (regardless of whether it is or not) and aren't really worried about the feelings of the rulers involved. I also don't think it's fair to bring up hypothetical consorts (Anora never has any) who may or may not have a rainbow-and-sunshine marriage to Alistair. Seriously, Alistair being happy with his spouse (and given he's King he'd have to marry someone of the nobility and not for love anyway) has little if anything to do with what's best for Ferelden.

Edit: Anora has no children without Alistair and we never hear if she manages one with him or with a male Cousland. Alistair we never hear anything on at all. Just because there may not be royal children does not mean either of them are so irresponsible after what happened when Cailan died to not name a non-child of theirs as heir.

The only thing you know without metagame knowledge is that they hate each other and in five years Anora has not produced an heir even with a king she is fond of (whether that is hers or Cailan's "fault" is not relevant).  It's not too much of a stretch to conclude that either one or the other will have a better shot at a stable reign and producing an heir if they are allowed to rule alone.  That is thinking about Ferelden, thinking about it long-term and not just short-term re. ending the civil war.

I'm not claiming that Anora-and-Alistair is the best choice with the information you have available (even with just the epilogue), just that the 'best of both worlds' mentality is strictly to do with ruling and cares very little about how Alistair and Anora feel about it as if you're really that concerned about either's feelings in the matter you probably won't arrange for them to marry.

[21121313]

I usually just get them to marry each other. It's a great way to give them both what they deserve.

I will say i have to disagree with Eamon on the Anora is on the wrong side of 30 commentary in the codex notes, because with the features she has it wouldn't stop me from trying to get a heir out of her. There's always that 1% chance:whistle:. Even though i don't see Alistair being the cheating kind, there's alway a maid somewhere around the castle.

I did marry my Noble character to her once, but i wouldn't do it again. She's just too plain full of herself. Besides, she had to be stoned out of her gourd to think i would actually sit there while she made all the decisions, never mind forcing me to agree to it in the first place.

If i was forced to pick, i'd take Alistair over Anora for one reason. Anora had some inkling of what happened from the beginning that her father wasn't being 100% honest, and she kept her mouth shut for much too long.

[ArawnNox]

21121313 wrote...

I usually just get them to marry each other. It's a great way to give them both what they deserve.

I will say i have to disagree with Eamon on the Anora is on the wrong side of 30 commentary in the codex notes, because with the features she has it wouldn't stop me from trying to get a heir out of her. There's always that 1% chance:whistle:. Even though i don't see Alistair being the cheating kind, there's alway a maid somewhere around the castle.

I did marry my Noble character to her once, but i wouldn't do it again. She's just too plain full of herself. Besides, she had to be stoned out of her gourd to think i would actually sit there while she made all the decisions, never mind forcing me to agree to it in the first place.

If i was forced to pick, i'd take Alistair over Anora for one reason. Anora had some inkling of what happened from the beginning that her father wasn't being 100% honest, and she kept her mouth shut for much too long.

Well, it could have been suicide to come out and denounce him right then and there. She needed allies willing to stand up to him in the landsmeet (enter the Grey Warden), evidence of trechery (or at least abuse of power), and an apropriate stage to present it all.
Loghain reveals that Howe had suggested killing Anora and if she spoke out too soon or in haste, Howe might have gone through with it, without Loghain's okay. Also, opposing her father so soon would (more than likley) exacerbate the civil war, the arrival of the Warden allowed her to take the chance of ending it right then and there.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Probably because when doing that you're trying to get the best possible outcome for Ferelden (regardless of whether it is or not) and aren't really worried about the feelings of the rulers involved. I also don't think it's fair to bring up hypothetical consorts (Anora never has any) who may or may not have a rainbow-and-sunshine marriage to Alistair. Seriously, Alistair being happy with his spouse (and given he's King he'd have to marry someone of the nobility and not for love anyway) has little if anything to do with what's best for Ferelden.

Edit: Anora has no children without Alistair and we never hear if she manages one with him or with a male Cousland. Alistair we never hear anything on at all. Just because there may not be royal children does not mean either of them are so irresponsible after what happened when Cailan died to not name a non-child of theirs as heir.

The only thing you know without metagame knowledge is that they hate each other and in five years Anora has not produced an heir even with a king she is fond of (whether that is hers or Cailan's "fault" is not relevant).  It's not too much of a stretch to conclude that either one or the other will have a better shot at a stable reign and producing an heir if they are allowed to rule alone.  That is thinking about Ferelden, thinking about it long-term and not just short-term re. ending the civil war.

I'm not sure I agree with this.  Without metagaming knowledge you don't know if either one is politically strong enough to hold the throne after the Blight is over.  If Alistair's king alone, might there not be some danger that some of Loghain's former supporters might scheme to put her on the throne?  If Anora is queen alone, some of the old line nobility (Eamon at the very least) are unhappy and might rally behind some other candidate (Fergus?).  It's a strong compromise choice that gives you a shot at satisfying multiple factions.  Plus, you know the two people involved and you can guess that Alistair's and Anora's strengths and weaknesses are complementary, so they might act as good checks and balances on each other.

I'm more concerned about the unity of Ferelden in the immediate aftermath of the blight than thirty years down the road.  And it's not like you have any options that give you a very good chance of giving Ferelden an heir, particularly since Anora alone doesn't remarry (not that you would know that)...

My canon PC believed Anora + Alistair would likely be the best thing for Ferelden's future.  But he cared more about Alistair's happiness than he did about Ferelden's future.