21 réponses à ce sujet

[RosaAquafire]

For me at least, the fact that the character is voice-acted isn't a deal-breaker. It's the side-effects of that, of having one voice on this character, who will read the line in this specific way.

My favourite thing about DA:O was how I wrote my own character. She was nothing like me at all, but I put a lot of work into making her as fleshed out as any other character in the game. It was amazing, because I've tried to do this in many, many other games, and it never worked. But in this game, I felt that my shy, insecure, stupidly honourable little elf warrior was actually a real character who the game treated the way that it logically would for who she was. It was such a unique and amazing experience, and it's the main reason why DA:O has stayed with me so strongly.

That's what I'm going to miss.

There were sometimes when my character flirted with some others, and in my head, her delivery of the lines was bashful, with a touch of a blush, not sure how it was going to be received and a little embarrassed that she tried in the first place. The game allowed her to do this, because the responses from the other characters never dictated her tone.

I couldn't choose that same option if she were voice-acted by a one-size-fits-all actor. Those same lines would be delivered in a HOW YOU DOIN tone of voice, which would be completely out of character for my character. I highly doubt that bioware is going to include an option for 5 different tones of flirts in order to keep Hawke in the character we design for him/her.

This is the problem.

What I loved about DA:O was writing my own characters, having the game actually allow me to do that with all the freedom I wanted. Every different character was received by the world differently, and I REALLY felt as if my role in the story wasn't just as a guide, but a writer doing a collaboration with other talented writers. Sure, there were still limitations, and sometimes the option I had to pick was just the best-guess to what the character I was writing would say, but I found very few situations where I had to go out of character because each line could be interpretted different ways and the reactions rarely dictated what the tone had been.

I don't have a problem with a voiced acted character. I have an issue with the flexibility that's going to take away. If Bioware wanted to pay the money to get 10 different voice actors for an angry character, a sarcastic one, a flirty one, a shy one, a violent one, a mysterious one -- that was be absolutely amazing. If they wanted to allow us to deliver the same line in five different tones of voice, it would be just incredible. But no matter how much they say "you can make Hawke any personality you like," the one-voice-fits-all is going to heavily constrain the options for those of us who get the most joy from getting to really design our own character and have them interact with the world.

The problem with the dialogue wheel and Hawke being voice-acted isn't a core one, it's what comes as a result, and that's the loss of the ability to make that character the person we want them to be.

For some people, that's what DA:O was all about.

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 12 juillet 2010 - 04:45 .

[In Exile]

I've debated this a lot in other threads, and I appreciate your sentiment. I suppose the short of my reply to this, about the issue of VO, is that I never felt that non-VO allowed you do to what you feel you did. Obviously, this is a poor reply - it sounds like I am telling you that you played the game wrong. That's not my intention.



What I am driving at is that for some of us, who believe very strongly in RPing but do not believe VO is bad, do not see non-VO as free as, say, you feel. The best way to put it is like this: I may hav a particular tone in mind for a line that is not spoken outloud. But once Alistair reacts to it, it is irrelevant what tone I had in mind; the tone was determined by the reaction Alistair had to it.



Consider the scene at the landsmeet. I could imagine a shy character that simply does not yell loudly and is terrified by crowds. Yet the mere fact that I am giving a loud speech in a great hall sorrounded by all the nobles in the land, with the addition of the argumentative debate that the speech boils down to, tells me it could not be the case that these lines were deliverd in a way that I had considered initially.



Continuing this debate, I think I have a better grasp on how people see the actions of their character, For example - and do correct me if I'm wrong - you often see the non-conscious reactions of your character combined with the lines (i.e. if you're being flirty, maybe you 'see' when the character is smiling, or smiling shyly?). This is another thing I, and I would assume others that are in the VO does not affect RP camp, do not see when the game goes on.



Now, none of this is to say that you are wrong, or that it is a good thing something you like is being taken away. But I wanted to share the opposite view-point. Perhaps it's small consolation, and not really ever a way you want to play the game. But it is a way others play and role-play.

[lunarknightmage]

^^I agree with this!



I'm not opposed to VO. In fact I welcome it. I don't feel having a Voice will take me out of the character.



However, I, too, am worried that VO will limit the dialog choices and box us into one personality.



Is the VO going to make Hawke into a no-nonsense, bada** warrior/soldier type character?



What if I'm playing a mage and want to make her shy, timid, and unsure of her powers. But, as the story progresses, she becomes a strong leader and bada** Arcane Warrior on the battlefield....



What if I want my character to be kind, compassionate, merciful? Not...I'll punch you in the face if you don't answer my questions............



What if I want her to have a cheery, upbeat personality? Not.......emo, doom-and-gloom, everything sucks kind of attitude........



It would be amazing if we could choose from multiple VO options or personalities........although, logistically and money-wise....that prob won't be possible...



Hopefully, though, by focusing on just one character this time ( Hawke ), Bioware will give us a great deal of freedom in how we define that character......not just in story choices...but also in personality.........

[RosaAquafire]

In Exile wrote...

Continuing this debate, I think I have a better grasp on how people see the actions of their character, For example - and do correct me if I'm wrong - you often see the non-conscious reactions of your character combined with the lines (i.e. if you're being flirty, maybe you 'see' when the character is smiling, or smiling shyly?). This is another thing I, and I would assume others that are in the VO does not affect RP camp, do not see when the game goes on.

I guess this IS the crucial difference. Yes, I definitely "saw" my characters' tone of voice and mannerisms. They were very vivid to me, so much that they may as well have actually been in the game. My city elf's averted eyes and how she'd go determined and ferocious when she felt that justice wasn't being done. My human noble's unwavering eye contact and unsmiling flatness. My dalish elf's rolled eyes and upturned lip. I guess the difference is between people who are thrilled to imagine all of that for themselves, and those who can't/feel they don't have to and would rather a one-size-fits-all predetermined character than use their imagination.

That sounds my disparaging that I mean it -- I'm aware that some people just don't have that sort of incredibly vivid imagination that I do and that's okay. It just sucks for those of us who did, and it made the game so awesome.

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 12 juillet 2010 - 05:04 .

[sanadawarrior]

In Exile wrote...

I've debated this a lot in other threads, and I appreciate your sentiment. I suppose the short of my reply to this, about the issue of VO, is that I never felt that non-VO allowed you do to what you feel you did. Obviously, this is a poor reply - it sounds like I am telling you that you played the game wrong. That's not my intention.

What I am driving at is that for some of us, who believe very strongly in RPing but do not believe VO is bad, do not see non-VO as free as, say, you feel. The best way to put it is like this: I may hav a particular tone in mind for a line that is not spoken outloud. But once Alistair reacts to it, it is irrelevant what tone I had in mind; the tone was determined by the reaction Alistair had to it.

Consider the scene at the landsmeet. I could imagine a shy character that simply does not yell loudly and is terrified by crowds. Yet the mere fact that I am giving a loud speech in a great hall sorrounded by all the nobles in the land, with the addition of the argumentative debate that the speech boils down to, tells me it could not be the case that these lines were deliverd in a way that I had considered initially.

Continuing this debate, I think I have a better grasp on how people see the actions of their character, For example - and do correct me if I'm wrong - you often see the non-conscious reactions of your character combined with the lines (i.e. if you're being flirty, maybe you 'see' when the character is smiling, or smiling shyly?). This is another thing I, and I would assume others that are in the VO does not affect RP camp, do not see when the game goes on.

Now, none of this is to say that you are wrong, or that it is a good thing something you like is being taken away. But I wanted to share the opposite view-point. Perhaps it's small consolation, and not really ever a way you want to play the game. But it is a way others play and role-play.

Pretty much this, I never got how you roleplayed a tone of voice if no one responds to it correctly.

[RosaAquafire]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Pretty much this, I never got how you roleplayed a tone of voice if no one responds to it correctly.

I just had very few situations like this, shrug. I guess I just played characters who were ideal for this sort of thing and picked all the ideal options, but that does seem a little suspiciously convenient. One of us is probably remembering wrong from bias, and it might very well be me.

But in the Landsmeet example, I basically can't imagine any character that is SO shy that they can't make a speech if they absolutely have to to save the entire world. My girl was freaking out in her head, and a little panicked and shrill, but she got through it.

[Lord_Saulot]

RosaAquafire wrote...

For me at least, the fact that the character is voice-acted isn't a deal-breaker. It's the side-effects of that, of having one voice on this character, who will read the line in this specific way.

My favourite thing about DA:O was how I wrote my own character. She was nothing like me at all, but I put a lot of work into making her as fleshed out as any other character in the game. It was amazing, because I've tried to do this in many, many other games, and it never worked. But in this game, I felt that my shy, insecure, stupidly honourable little elf warrior was actually a real character who the game treated the way that it logically would for who she was. It was such a unique and amazing experience, and it's the main reason why DA:O has stayed with me so strongly.

That's what I'm going to miss.

There were sometimes when my character flirted with some others, and in my head, her delivery of the lines was bashful, with a touch of a blush, not sure how it was going to be received and a little embarrassed that she tried in the first place. The game allowed her to do this, because the responses from the other characters never dictated her tone.

I couldn't choose that same option if she were voice-acted by a one-size-fits-all actor. Those same lines would be delivered in a HOW YOU DOIN tone of voice, which would be completely out of character for my character. I highly doubt that bioware is going to include an option for 5 different tones of flirts in order to keep Hawke in the character we design for him/her.

This is the problem.

What I loved about DA:O was writing my own characters, having the game actually allow me to do that with all the freedom I wanted. Every different character was received by the world differently, and I REALLY felt as if my role in the story wasn't just as a guide, but a writer doing a collaboration with other talented writers. Sure, there were still limitations, and sometimes the option I had to pick was just the best-guess to what the character I was writing would say, but I found very few situations where I had to go out of character because each line could be interpretted different ways and the reactions rarely dictated what the tone had been.

I don't have a problem with a voiced acted character. I have an issue with the flexibility that's going to take away. If Bioware wanted to pay the money to get 10 different voice actors for an angry character, a sarcastic one, a flirty one, a shy one, a violent one, a mysterious one -- that was be absolutely amazing. If they wanted to allow us to deliver the same line in five different tones of voice, it would be just incredible. But no matter how much they say "you can make Hawke any personality you like," the one-voice-fits-all is going to heavily constrain the options for those of us who get the most joy from getting to really design our own character and have them interact with the world.

The problem with the dialogue wheel and Hawke being voice-acted isn't a core one, it's what comes as a result, and that's the loss of the ability to make that character the person we want them to be.

For some people, that's what DA:O was all about.

This is a reasonable worry, and for your sake, I hope that Bioware's voice recordings are handled in a way that can accomodate your concerns.  I had hoped for no voice acting too, because I like to imagine different types of voices to suit characters, so I understand and sympathize with your concerns.

At the same time, I don't think it was as important for me as for you.  In my mind, there is already an implied tone of delivery to every line in Origins that is reflected through the responses that other characters give to the line.  So I don't really feel that the lines gave me much room for interpretation, because there was an interpretation that the game used to determine the other conversant's reaction.

But even though my experience was different in that regard, and I don't think we had much room for different tones in DA:O, I do think your concerns are very valid, and I hope they do make this game in a way that encourages the same level of imagination that the first one did.  I also like that you are keeping an open mind about the game

[NovenseiWarden]

My main fear is that the dialogue options will be catagorized as the were in ME, with "good" and "bad" dialogue easily distinguishable. Hopefully having no morality meter means that Bioware will keep dialogue less grounded in catagorization.

Nevermind -
http://social.biowar...1/index/3103670

Modifié par NovenseiWarden, 12 juillet 2010 - 05:18 .

[RosaAquafire]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

This is a reasonable worry, and for your sake, I hope that Bioware's voice recordings are handled in a way that can accomodate your concerns.  I had hoped for no voice acting too, because I like to imagine different types of voices to suit characters, so I understand and sympathize with your concerns.

At the same time, I don't think it was as important for me as for you.  In my mind, there is already an implied tone of delivery to every line in Origins that is reflected through the responses that other characters give to the line.  So I don't really feel that the lines gave me much room for interpretation, because there was an interpretation that the game used to determine the other conversant's reaction.

But even though my experience was different in that regard, and I don't think we had much room for different tones in DA:O, I do think your concerns are very valid, and I hope they do make this game in a way that encourages the same level of imagination that the first one did.  I also like that you are keeping an open mind about the game

Everyone keeps saying this. I really might be remembering with rose-coloured glasses, and I admit that. But still, it's way easier to imagine another character taking your response the wrong way than it is when you actually hear your character deliver the line a way that you know they never would

But I definitely haven't made up my mind about DA2 yet and am definitely trying to keep an open mind! I think it's way too early for doomsaying and quitting Bioware forevar. I'm going to wait for more detailed information and actual reviews before I decide whether I'm going to get it, because I have faith that Bioware can overcome my reservations.

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 12 juillet 2010 - 05:18 .

[Lord_Saulot]

NovenseiWarden wrote...

My main fear is that the dialogue options will be catagorized as the were in ME, with "good" and "bad" dialogue easily distinguishable. Hopefully having no morality meter means that Bioware will keep dialogue less grounded in catagorization.

I think that it is unlikely that there will be "good" and "bad" responses in DA2, because one of the focuses for Dragon Age has been making choices more ambiguous.  I'm fairly sure that they have indicated in forum replies that that is still what they want to do in DA2.  The thing to remember is that ME is a different series with different goals, a different style, and different intentions.  We must separate the dialogue mechanics from the implementation of those mechanics.  We know that mechanics (voiceover, wheel) will be brought into DA:O, which is not surprising because companies tend to use tools that they have found effective, but the implementation will in all likelihood not be the same or similar, because of the different intents, goals, and style that DA the series has as opposed to ME the series.

[Lord_Saulot]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Lord_Saulot wrote...

This is a reasonable worry, and for your sake, I hope that Bioware's voice recordings are handled in a way that can accomodate your concerns.  I had hoped for no voice acting too, because I like to imagine different types of voices to suit characters, so I understand and sympathize with your concerns.

At the same time, I don't think it was as important for me as for you.  In my mind, there is already an implied tone of delivery to every line in Origins that is reflected through the responses that other characters give to the line.  So I don't really feel that the lines gave me much room for interpretation, because there was an interpretation that the game used to determine the other conversant's reaction.

But even though my experience was different in that regard, and I don't think we had much room for different tones in DA:O, I do think your concerns are very valid, and I hope they do make this game in a way that encourages the same level of imagination that the first one did.  I also like that you are keeping an open mind about the game

Everyone keeps saying this. I really might be remembering with rose-coloured glasses, and I admit that. But still, it's way easier to imagine another character taking your response the wrong way than it is when you actually hear your character deliver the line a way that you know they never would

But I definitely haven't made up my mind about DA2 yet and am definitely trying to keep an open mind! I think it's way too early for doomsaying and quitting Bioware forevar. I'm going to wait for more detailed information and actual reviews before I decide whether I'm going to get it, because I have faith that Bioware can overcome my reservations.

I think that is a very good approach.  Over the next few months, we will probably learn a lot more about this game, and that open mind will allow you to evaluate it.

Regarding DA:O and the interpretations, I don't think you are necessarily wrong, just to be clear - even though we are all human, we all tend to interpret stimuli in an individualized way, so its possible that things that were important to me or the other posters were not important to you, and vice versa.  And in any case, I hope Bioware can find a way to implement the voiceovers in a way that caters to you as well.

[Addai]

sanadawarrior wrote...
Pretty much this, I never got how you roleplayed a tone of voice if no one responds to it correctly.

There were very few times in DAO where this happened.  However, if it did, story-wise I could put it down to the fact that sometimes people misunderstand you.  It could even add to the sense that NPCs have a mind of their own.  For instance, often you could joke around with Alistair and get an approval bump.  Sometimes, though, he could take ridicule really badly.  Really badly.  Even if your PC meant to be lighthearted, you could just put it down to the fact that sometimes people react differently in different situations.

There were also a few times when I felt like none of the responses fit what I wanted to say.  But at least I knew what I was going to say when I clicked on a response, versus the dialogue wheel which just gives you a vague idea of what the PC is actually going to say and do.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 juillet 2010 - 05:24 .

[Wishpig]

Ya, the big problem with VO, is it's very hard to allow for a range of personality. For example, take Shepard... a character with even less moldibility then Hawke will supposedly have.



If you played renegade you sounded like an utter bad ass, his tone and the entire feel of his personality changed. But sometimes there would be dialogue moments where you couldn't pick renegade or paragon and sounded neutral. These moments didn't mesh at all with the renegade tone. It's like he was a totally different person.

[whinnie]

everyone seems to be picking sides on this argument...surely Im not the only one who loves both sides and just cares about how bioware implement it into the game, because sure the voice over could be a massive disadvantage to the game, but so could no voice over, it all depends on how bioware implements it and i for one trust bioware on this point and as such i am not at all worried

[Captain Jazz]

Good point... I hadn't considered this and, considering that I have the same experience with origins and my characters, I'm not sure why.

I wonder if it would be possible to have a tickybox to tick that allows us to mute the character?

Of course I don't actually think a VO will destroy my ability to mould my characters into my wicked thralls... but there is always the possibility of that wtfrobot moment happening, "I'm just touring the ship. Getting to know my crew. Resistance is futile," which would just confuse the character in my head.

[Telum101]

I completely agree with RosaAquafire. I couldn't have phrased my thought better myself.



On a similar note, thank you for explaining the other side to the issue In Exile. I was honestly unable to see how anyone could find PC voice-overs immersive at all.



I guess it's also partly a matter of how much you let the game immerse you. Like Rosa, I was always able to imagine my character speaking in the tone I wanted, and I guess the effect 'snowballs' in a sense, in that I was so taken in by the game, that even when the tone would seem wrong, the overall mood would sway my own emotions to fit the situation.



As I've said in other threads, I have no doubt this will be a good game, just as DA:O and the two MEs were good, but my issue is that I don't think this revised dialogue system with the PC voice-over will do DA:O any justice as a sequel. I will surely enjoy DA2, but I don't think it will have near the same effect as Origins. I just hope that Bioware returns to the features that made Origins good if they make more after this, as I would definitely like to see a true sequel.

[In Exile]

RosaAquafire wrote...
That sounds my disparaging that I mean it -- I'm aware that some people just don't have that sort of incredibly vivid imagination that I do and that's okay. It just sucks for those of us who did, and it made the game so awesome.

This may come as a huge shock to you, but my imagination is not less vivid than yours. I simply do not imagine counterfactuals to my game. It is either in the game or did not happen.

I could imagine Wynne and my character had a night of wild sexual escapades while drunk before the Joining at Ostagar, and thec combination of shame and hangover kept them from ever speaking of it again. I mean, I could imagine that my character is actually a shape-shifting lizard alien sent to spy on Ferelden and observe whether or not the Blight could spread to other worlds. 

I'm sorry for being so snarky, but frankly I don't appreciate the "woe is me, I suffer so for my superior imagination" attitude that some take on this forum.

Modifié par In Exile, 12 juillet 2010 - 05:59 .

[Rogue Unit]

In Exile, I like you.

[Cerberus Operative]

RoseAquafire, I absolutely agree with your viewpoint. I too fear the loss of flexibility with regards to developing a unique personality that differs between character to character, and is not hindered by inflexible archetypes such as Paragon soldier, Renegade soldier. I am not opposed to the idea of a voiced character, indeed Bioware have enthralled me enough times to have earned my trust, but all the same I will approach DA2 with cautious optimism.

[Wishpig]

whinnie wrote...

everyone seems to be picking sides on this argument...surely Im not the only one who loves both sides and just cares about how bioware implement it into the game, because sure the voice over could be a massive disadvantage to the game, but so could no voice over, it all depends on how bioware implements it and i for one trust bioware on this point and as such i am not at all worried

I'm not... I'm in the same boat as you. I think both sides have their benefits and drawbacks.

[RosaAquafire]

In Exile wrote...

This may come as a huge shock to you, but my imagination is not less vivid than yours. I simply do not imagine counterfactuals to my game. It is either in the game or did not happen.

I could imagine Wynne and my character had a night of wild sexual escapades while drunk before the Joining at Ostagar, and thec combination of shame and hangover kept them from ever speaking of it again. I mean, I could imagine that my character is actually a shape-shifting lizard alien sent to spy on Ferelden and observe whether or not the Blight could spread to other worlds. 

I'm sorry for being so snarky, but frankly I don't appreciate the "woe is me, I suffer so for my superior imagination" attitude that some take on this forum.

Wow.

Uh, yeah, I don't really know what to even say to this. It's so nice that even when you say "I don't mean this badly, I'm sorry it may come off that way!" people take offense and treat you badly.

You seemed so nice from your first comment and I found it really enlightening on the other side of the debate. Do you realize how much you invalidated yourself by taking this tone? Maybe you're the most imaginative person in the entire world, I don't know you. I just logically assumed that those who don't imagine something that the game explicitly implied to have happened isn't a naturally imaginative person. There's a world of difference between "I imagined this outrageous scenario" and "I imagined my character smiling when they politely introduced themself." The second is natural and, I believe, what we are INTENDED to do.

I realize that some people need to see something onscreen for it to make an impact. That's totally fine with me. Some, like me, are just as good filling in the blanks ourselves so long as it fits. I don't think that INFERRING that the latter group have more naturally active imaginations is outrageous, or that I deserve to be talked down to because I did.

So I'm sorry for my assumption, but I don't think I in any way deserved THAT because you have a grudge against a group on a forum that I personally haven't posted on since 2009?

[RosaAquafire]

And to clarify, I don't think that I'm any better than anyone else for being more than happy to imagine the PC's emoting. I don't consider myself a tortured artist suffering for my brilliance. I just think it sucks, for me, personally, that this thing I LOVED about the series is being stripped down to accomodate for a group that I am not part of. Is that so wrong?