294 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Not to mention him being actually sad that there is no Archdemon in sight, because he would rather fight in a war that threatens all life, simply because it's cooler?

[Sabariel]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Hmm, getting dropped on his head and having candy stolen? No...more like being forced to watch while Orlesian soldiers gang raped his mother and then cut her throat. Might explain a little about why he hates the Orlesians so much, huh?
As for Cailan's murder...I don't even see it as that. Cailan was killed by darkspawn, and by his own stupidity. The worst you can accuse Loghain of in that instance is negligence, but he did tell Cailan not to fight on the front lines with the wardens and Cailan told him to STFU and remember who was king.
Anyway, yes, the various Connor death scenarios are pretty disturbing. I don't like Isolde and I even felt sorry for her there.

And yet the only stupid thing we see Cailan do is put his trust in Loghain...

You don't call refusing to let Eamon's troops come (purportedly because he doesn't want to share the glory but likely because he didn't want to deal with Eamon telling him to ditch Anora when he was already fighting with Loghain about her) and insisting on riding into battle with the GW's despite having no heir and that being incredibly dangerous stupid? 

No, I don't find not having an heir all that stupid. There was still Anora to rule (or Loghain...). Though I will give you that not waiting for Eamon's troops was a bit stupid. It seemed he did have enough troops though as Alistair says that the King "had nearly defeated the darkspawn" with the men he had. I think if Loghain hadn't turned traitor they would have won... but then of course there would be no game.

[Sabariel]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

After reading the stolen Throne this is what most people do about Loghain:

http://aimo.devianta...llery/#/d2mzjea

I'm definitely in the minority then. I felt a bit of sympathy for him after reading that book, but I still hated him for what he did.

[Sarah1281]

Anora could have been declared his heir and we wouldn't have had a succession mess. Notice that's the first thing responsible, hardened King Alistair does? And why would the King fight on the front lines? Kings NEVER do that as they're too important to risk.

Did you also see the part about the darkspawn no one was expecting coming out of nowhere, forcing the mages to retreat, turning Ostagar into a cluster****...? RtO makes it clear that it's not definite that Loghain could have won. He might have but it's left ambiguous or else it would be too easy to pin Loghain down with a 'oh, Loghain was misguided but at Ostagar he did what he had to do and then got in over his head' or 'Loghain's an evil regicidal maniac!'

Modifié par Sarah1281, 20 juillet 2010 - 10:50 .

[Sabariel]

Front lines or not, Cailan was not the first King to fall to the darkspawn. Wynne says as much. He could have stayed behind and still gotten slaughtered... in fact he most likely would have as Loghain would still have run off and let the darkspawn overtake Ostagar.

He would have been royally screwed no matter where he was in the battle all because Loghain couldn't let go of his hate.

Modifié par Sabariel, 20 juillet 2010 - 10:56 .

[ObserverStatus]

Choosing between Alistair and Loghain. Alistair may be an insufferable whiner but at least he's a competent tank. I'm not proud of the number of times my party wiped after choosing Loghain.

[Sarah1281]

Sabariel wrote...

Front lines or not, Cailan was not the first King to fall to the darkspawn. Wynne says as much. He could have stayed behind and still gotten slaughtered... in fact he most likely would have as Loghain would still have run off and let the darkspawn overtake Ostagar.

He would have been royally screwed no matter where he was in the battle all because Loghain couldn't let go of his hate.

What does Loghain's hatred have to do with the fact that he chose to retreat? He may not have wanted the Orlesians there but Cailan chose not to wait for them. And the battle could have been a stunning victory and Cailan still could have gotten himself killed because he was on the front lines. Just because everybody else died, too, doesn't make Cailan's choice to be with the Wardens any better of an idea.

[Bahlgan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You OBVIOUSLY have not read the Stolen Throne.
Do that, then we can have this discussion.

You are right. I have not read it, but I have come to understand SOME of why Loghain might be cynical. I am trying to find time to read it eventually, but for now my schedule is busy. No excuse though. There are far many more people who are weaker spirited who ended up amounting to more than the fall of a few thousand troops at Ostagar.

 I'm not sure why you need to drag RL into this unless you go around killing people for racial slurs

...Didn't you hear? There are many of the weak minded and degenerate types across the world being put down like the inconsiderate dogs they are! See, I am not a schemer, I just show how horrible the attempts of the schemers really are.. Haha oh dear, I think I blew my cover. 

Modifié par Bahlgan, 20 juillet 2010 - 11:07 .

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Sabariel wrote...

And yet the only stupid thing we see Cailan do is put his trust in Loghain...

So it was stupid to trust your father's closest friend, your own father in law, an acknowlegded hero and gerneral who you've most likely known your whole life? Over disagreements in phosophy?

From a metagamer's point of view, Loghain's betrayal was just short of advertised by TV and radio ads, from Cailan's point, he would've had no reason to doubt him,

[Sabariel]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Front lines or not, Cailan was not the first King to fall to the darkspawn. Wynne says as much. He could have stayed behind and still gotten slaughtered... in fact he most likely would have as Loghain would still have run off and let the darkspawn overtake Ostagar.

He would have been royally screwed no matter where he was in the battle all because Loghain couldn't let go of his hate.

What does Loghain's hatred have to do with the fact that he chose to retreat? He may not have wanted the Orlesians there but Cailan chose not to wait for them. And the battle could have been a stunning victory and Cailan still could have gotten himself killed because he was on the front lines. Just because everybody else died, too, doesn't make Cailan's choice to be with the Wardens any better of an idea.

I believe that Loghain's hatred for the Orlesians, coupled with the fact that Cailan wanted to "open doors"  to relations with Orlais, is what motivated him to betray the King. If he had been able to let go of his hatred I don't think he would have betrayed Cailan.

And I didn't say it was better. I merely said that Cailan would have died anyway no matter where he was in the battle as Loghain's troops would have tipped the balance in their favor, but he chose to run off and let everyone get slaughtered.

[Sabariel]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

And yet the only stupid thing we see Cailan do is put his trust in Loghain...

So it was stupid to trust your father's closest friend, your own father in law, an acknowlegded hero and gerneral who you've most likely known your whole life? Over disagreements in phosophy?

From a metagamer's point of view, Loghain's betrayal was just short of advertised by TV and radio ads, from Cailan's point, he would've had no reason to doubt him,

Considering what happened, yes, it was stupid. However I never said that I expected Cailan to see it as stupid.

[metalcraze33]

My hardest decision as a human noble was to have Alistair sleep with Morrigan I knew he would leave me If i recruited Logain there is just really no good choice there If you intend to marry him.

[Bahlgan]

Anyone wanna talk about Isolde? I was wondering her story on how she ended up in Ferelden. If I recall correctly, she married Eamon during the war against Orlais, am I right? What kind of story do you think she and Eamon went through, if not already covered by "The Stolen Throne"?

My hardest decision as a human noble was to have Alistair sleep with Morrigan I knew he would leave me If i recruited Logain there is just really no good choice there If you intend to marry him.

Too bad you cannot have someone wasteful like Sten do it. <_<

Modifié par Bahlgan, 20 juillet 2010 - 11:11 .

[metalcraze33]

Bahlgan not a bad idea he wanted to die in battle anyway

[Persephone]

Alien1099 wrote...

Silvernight wrote...

There are surprisingly many in this game, something I've never seen in another game so far. It's usually much more clear-cut, good or evil and this game is so much more complex in this regard. For me, it must have been executing Loghain. I only did it so Alistair wouldn't leave the party, he was one of my main tanks after all, and I was also interested in him doing Morrigan's ritual too, who doesn't love some healthy drama huh? Loghain might have been a real sonofa*itch but he wasn't beyond redemption, I thought making him a Grey Warden was a great idea. I felt really bad about killing him so I let Alistair do it. Which of course screwed the marriage plans with Anora. And his blood splattering all over Anora looked really morbid. There's just no way being utterly pleased with the outcome here.

Edit: Could someone move this over to a main quest and storylines spoilers forum? I accidentally posted on the wrong forum.

Why feel bad? Somebody that stages a coup de tat resulting in the death of the rightful king and thousands of troops, the murder of your nearly entire family if you're a human noble (he allows howe to steal Highever), starts up a slave trade, the attempted assassination of Arl Eamon to further his political agenda, the resulting aftermath of the attempted assassination resulting in the deaths of an unspecified number of innocent townsfolk in Redcliffe (including women and children), the resulting insecurity of Ferelden after his coup de tat leaving Denerim open to attack by the blight that should have been destroyed at Ostagar, again, resulting in the deaths of untold numbers of civilians etc...

He deserved to die for his crimes, at least a dozen times over.

Disagree completely. He did not plan the death of the king, why else did he ask Cailan again and again NOT to fight in the battle with the GW? Arl Eamon wasn't all that innocent either, he urged Cailan to put Anora away because she had not given him an heir yet. A coup to weaken Loghain's position and I cannot blame Loghain for not caring about the man who wants to ruin his daughter. Supporting Alistair is another coup to grab power by Eamon, it's the only charge Eamon does not deny when Loghain calls him out on it at the LM. He had nothing to do with Connor dealing with a demon. Bad side effect, not exactly his fault. (Isolde's, rather) What I cannot forgive is the slavery. But I refuse to butcher a man in front of his daughter, just to satisfy Alistair's childish tantrums. Everything it takes to defeat the Blight, 4 GW are better than 3.

[Persephone]

Alien1099 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

the murder of your nearly entire family if you're a human noble (he allows howe to steal Highever),

This probably doesn't make it any better but...Loghain had nothing to do with the Couslands deaths. Your character can't know that but it's Word of God. Still, he did allow Howe to get away with it which is still rage-inducing. Maybe as a non-HN Loghain doesn't know for sure that Howe was behind it or buys his 'it's the Orlesians fault' excuse but as a HN he heard about it straight from you.

It may or may not be official "canon" or part of the story, but Sir Gilmore and Mother Mallol's bodies are at Fort Drakon, presumably tortured to death. I'm sure Loghaine was well aware of what was going on, condoned it, and was an accomplice. Howe claims that he believed the Noble Human's father to be consorting with the Orlesians. I'm sure that when told this by Howe, Loghaine gave him his blessing.

I actually that this was the "justification" Howe used to sway Loghain. Remember Eleanor telling Lady Landra about her hubby going to Orlais? (Innocently, of course, but Howe is twisting this into s justification. Makes sense, along with Gaider confirming Loghain's innocence there)

[Persephone]

Omen72 wrote...

and his daughter is no better so I had no problem letting Alister finish him off in front of her, personally after the way she turned on the Grey Warden (having them rescue her only for you to find out that was a con) I'd have done more that lock her in the tower for her treason.

How was it a con? She will only turn on you if you betray her first by blabbing her identity to Cauthrien. Which she asked you not to because she'd be taken back to the palace. I cannot blame her for "betraying" you on the Landsmeet if you tell her point blank that you'll kill her father OR have a bastard son usurp her throne (After having ruled brilliantly). She is not guilty of treason. Would you not "turn on" the person who told you they plan to kill your father? 

[Sarah1281]

Persephone wrote...

Omen72 wrote...

and his daughter is no better so I had no problem letting Alister finish him off in front of her, personally after the way she turned on the Grey Warden (having them rescue her only for you to find out that was a con) I'd have done more that lock her in the tower for her treason.

How was it a con? She will only turn on you if you betray her first by blabbing her identity to Cauthrien. Which she asked you not to because she'd be taken back to the palace. I cannot blame her for "betraying" you on the Landsmeet if you tell her point blank that you'll kill her father OR have a bastard son usurp her throne (After having ruled brilliantly). She is not guilty of treason. Would you not "turn on" the person who told you they plan to kill your father? 

I think by 'con' they mean that if Anora turns on you at the Landsmeet and you choose the 'But he tried to kill you!' option she smirks and says 'Are you so sure?' and admits to testing you because she wanted to see if you were willing to do what was best for Ferelden (read: ally with her). Sure, it's not nice but it's hardly something that deserves getting her locked in a tower, let alone killed.

But seriously? 'OMG, a successful politician lied to me! But...but that's simply not very nice! Alistair would never lie to me! Well, not after he admitted who his father was. But he had a reason for that while Anora clearly just did it for the lulz! Stupid Anora not supporting me after I told her that I was putting Alistair on the throne and planned on killing her father no matter what happened. She's so heartless! And how dare she risk destroying Fereldn by not supporting the Grey Wardens! Doesn't she psychically know that bit about how we really are necessary that Riordan hasn't seen fit to tell even Alistair and I? I'm going to laugh as she gets splattered with his blood and hate on her for refusing to marry the man who did it since being willing to be his political opponent clealry means she doesn't give a **** about him so why react like a normal human being would. In fact, I think I should be able to kill her because she's just so annoying and ****y. Death to Anora!'

[Persephone]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Omen72 wrote...

and his daughter is no better so I had no problem letting Alister finish him off in front of her, personally after the way she turned on the Grey Warden (having them rescue her only for you to find out that was a con) I'd have done more that lock her in the tower for her treason.

How was it a con? She will only turn on you if you betray her first by blabbing her identity to Cauthrien. Which she asked you not to because she'd be taken back to the palace. I cannot blame her for "betraying" you on the Landsmeet if you tell her point blank that you'll kill her father OR have a bastard son usurp her throne (After having ruled brilliantly). She is not guilty of treason. Would you not "turn on" the person who told you they plan to kill your father? 

I think by 'con' they mean that if Anora turns on you at the Landsmeet and you choose the 'But he tried to kill you!' option she smirks and says 'Are you so sure?' and admits to testing you because she wanted to see if you were willing to do what was best for Ferelden (read: ally with her). Sure, it's not nice but it's hardly something that deserves getting her locked in a tower, let alone killed.

But seriously? 'OMG, a successful politician lied to me! But...but that's simply not very nice! Alistair would never lie to me! Well, not after he admitted who his father was. But he had a reason for that while Anora clearly just did it for the lulz! Stupid Anora not supporting me after I told her that I was putting Alistair on the throne and planned on killing her father no matter what happened. She's so heartless! And how dare she risk destroying Fereldn by not supporting the Grey Wardens! Doesn't she psychically know that bit about how we really are necessary that Riordan hasn't seen fit to tell even Alistair and I? I'm going to laugh as she gets splattered with his blood and hate on her for refusing to marry the man who did it since being willing to be his political opponent clealry means she doesn't give a **** about him so why react like a normal human being would. In fact, I think I should be able to kill her because she's just so annoying and ****y. Death to Anora!'

This is made of WIN!! :innocent:

Modifié par Persephone, 21 juillet 2010 - 02:02 .

[Raonar]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Omen72 wrote...

and his daughter is no better so I had no problem letting Alister finish him off in front of her, personally after the way she turned on the Grey Warden (having them rescue her only for you to find out that was a con) I'd have done more that lock her in the tower for her treason.

How was it a con? She will only turn on you if you betray her first by blabbing her identity to Cauthrien. Which she asked you not to because she'd be taken back to the palace. I cannot blame her for "betraying" you on the Landsmeet if you tell her point blank that you'll kill her father OR have a bastard son usurp her throne (After having ruled brilliantly). She is not guilty of treason. Would you not "turn on" the person who told you they plan to kill your father? 

I think by 'con' they mean that if Anora turns on you at the Landsmeet and you choose the 'But he tried to kill you!' option she smirks and says 'Are you so sure?' and admits to testing you because she wanted to see if you were willing to do what was best for Ferelden (read: ally with her). Sure, it's not nice but it's hardly something that deserves getting her locked in a tower, let alone killed.

But seriously? 'OMG, a successful politician lied to me! But...but that's simply not very nice! Alistair would never lie to me! Well, not after he admitted who his father was. But he had a reason for that while Anora clearly just did it for the lulz! Stupid Anora not supporting me after I told her that I was putting Alistair on the throne and planned on killing her father no matter what happened. She's so heartless! And how dare she risk destroying Fereldn by not supporting the Grey Wardens! Doesn't she psychically know that bit about how we really are necessary that Riordan hasn't seen fit to tell even Alistair and I? I'm going to laugh as she gets splattered with his blood and hate on her for refusing to marry the man who did it since being willing to be his political opponent clealry means she doesn't give a **** about him so why react like a normal human being would. In fact, I think I should be able to kill her because she's just so annoying and ****y. Death to Anora!'

Your sarcasm is not wasted. Excellent way of outlining the invalidity of Anti-Anora-ism.

[Costin_Razvan]

A true dwarf is made of pure sarcasm!



Duran Aeducan: If I said yes, would that earn me a tongue lashing.



Velanna: You make me out to be a shrill harpy or something.



Duran: My mistake, yelling is CLEARLY out of character for you.

[Zjarcal]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

A true dwarf is made of pure sarcasm!

Duran Aeducan: If I said yes, would that earn me a tongue lashing.

Velanna: You make me out to be a shrill harpy or something.

Duran: My mistake, yelling is CLEARLY out of character for you.

This particular interaction is the main reason why I feel Velanna is worth recruiting in Awakeninig, though I prefer to just tell her outright she's a shrill harpy (less sarcasm, more to the point).

[Homebound]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

After reading the stolen Throne this is what most people do about Loghain:

http://aimo.devianta...llery/#/d2mzjea

Why? What happens in Stolen Throne?  He seemed like the bunched up arsehair from a dwarf if you ask me.

[Bahlgan]

It's not that I don't feel bad about Loghain for what happened to him when he was a kid, but some people need to seriously move on. It is NOT ok and NOT hip hop and swingin' to go throw the chain of abuse around and create many more thousands of fatherless (or motherless in some cases) kids via sacrificing their parent Wardens to the darkspawn in Ostagar. Go ahead guys and call Cailan an idiot if you will, I honestly do not care. What I DO care about is having those speak about the troops as if they themselves represent Cailan. What he has done is far worse than any Chevalier I known. At least the Chevaliers were foreign; Loghain was TRUSTED by his troops; go figure..

[Sarah1281]

That's only if you feel that Loghain charging could have saved everybody. I think Ostagar was a lost cause anyway.