294 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabariel]

Just_mike wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

After reading the stolen Throne this is what most people do about Loghain:

http://aimo.devianta...llery/#/d2mzjea

Why? What happens in Stolen Throne?  He seemed like the bunched up arsehair from a dwarf if you ask me.

SPOILERS!!!














His mum is raped and killed by the Orlesians, his dad is killed later on by the Orlesians/Orlesian sympathizers, and the woman he loves marries Maric.

Modifié par Sabariel, 22 juillet 2010 - 12:11 .

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

That's only if you feel that Loghain charging could have saved everybody. I think Ostagar was a lost cause anyway.

This is our impass then. I do believe Loghain could have made a difference. He seemed to be holding half the forces that were originally at Ostagar anyway. Darkspawn rely on numbers and number alone. Only with mages and Ogres can they dare compensate for lack of numbers. Very rarely have I ever been matched (matched, not defeated) by a darkspawn group as small as 4 enemies. Never has it happened... Except with the Archdemon, not counting the spawns, and once again: I never fell in battle.

The point is, I doubt greatly that even if the darkspawn outnumbered Ostagar's forces, we still would have lost.

[CalJones]

And there's the main bone of contention. It's not clear either way whether Loghain could have saved the day or not. What we do know, for certain, is that darkspawn numbers had been increasing with each battle, but there were far more at Ostagar than anyone had prepared for.

Loghain is a man who has made his career on winning impossible battles, so in my mind, he wouldn't have called for a retreat if he believed the battle was winnable. The real question is whether Ostagar really was a lost cause, or whether Loghain merely perceived it as such.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have made the decision lightly; for all that Cailan got under his skin, Cailan was still his best friend's son and his daughter's husband. We know from the game that Cailan's death puts Anora's rule in jeopardy and I highly doubt whether Loghain would want that.

[CChocobo]

Well i just beat awakening, i have to say letting amaranthine burn in order to save the keep was a tough one.. Watching as the archers fired flaming arrows, and ballistas and catapults fired fire down on the city was rough especially seeing that there were in FACT people still alive in there..

[Sarah1281]

The death toll was relatively small at the time you chose to leave, too, which makes it worse. I could never justify leaving it to its fate. The Keep was fine, no one with a name died, and I have no idea who the anonymous losses were.

[_- Songlian -]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

After reading the stolen Throne this is what most people do about Loghain:

http://aimo.devianta...llery/#/d2mzjea

 
Most  being the key word here. TST didn't shift my opinion on Loghain, it only made it worse. 

Modifié par - Songlian -, 22 juillet 2010 - 03:43 .

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The death toll was relatively small at the time you chose to leave, too, which makes it worse. I could never justify leaving it to its fate. The Keep was fine, no one with a name died, and I have no idea who the anonymous losses were.

Agreed. I believe it the better choice to venture for saving Amaranthine, assuming that Vigil's Keep is upgraded enough. Just leave it up to Oghren to fight off all the Ogres drunk, his BO might also be a poison grenade supplement 

[Persephone]

- Songlian - wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

After reading the stolen Throne this is what most people do about Loghain:

http://aimo.devianta...llery/#/d2mzjea

 
Most  being the key word here. TST didn't shift my opinion on Loghain, it only made it worse. 

Is this about Katriel (Whom I hate)? Or about Rowan & Maric?

[CalJones]

I hated Katriel as well. You're not alone in that. Biatch had it coming.

[Sarah1281]

CalJones wrote...

I hated Katriel as well. You're not alone in that. Biatch had it coming.

 It was actually a little refreshing not to see the predictable 'I know I tried to kill you and am your sworn enemy but the power of your love saved me now I'm with you and together with our love we can conquer anything!' scenario play out and Loghain convinced Maric to kill him. I mean, dick move on his part and I felt really bad for both of them but still. Actions have consequences and they just couldn't trust her.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 23 juillet 2010 - 05:53 .

[Mdfitz]

my non dwarf characters never cared about who was king in orzzamar since all i want is my troops

[Sarah1281]

Mdfitz wrote...

my non dwarf characters never cared about who was king in orzzamar since all i want is my troops

Then why would it be a distateful decision for you? 

[phaonica]

For all that the "I'm not who you thought I was, but I'm changed now" thing was cliche, I feel like.... I spared Loghain at the Landsmeet for doing arguably worse things, I should be able to come up with a reason why Katriel could be forgiven, too. Are the two completely not comparable?

[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...

For all that the "I'm not who you thought I was, but I'm changed now" thing was cliche, I feel like.... I spared Loghain at the Landsmeet for doing arguably worse things, I should be able to come up with a reason why Katriel could be forgiven, too. Are the two completely not comparable?

Well, it was hardly a Blight situation where every Warden counted and she couldn't be counted on to at least try to save Ferelden. And Loghain did try to protect us all from the Orlesians, no one can deny that. He just would stop trying when we had bigger problems.

[phaonica]

The Landsmeet just didn't feel like anyone except Alistair was demanding justice. Maybe they were, but it didn't feel that way. As opposed to Katriel's execution, which we were expected to believe that everyone would demand justice, once they found out. It seemed to make Katriel's death politically necessary in a way that Loghain's wasn't.

[Sarah1281]

Katriel was Orlesian which, given the rebellion...

[phaonica]

Meh, Maybe they aren't comparable. I just hate to hate on Katriel when I spared Loghain despite arguably worse actions.

[CalJones]

It's an interesting conundrum. Katriel may be repentant, but the fact is, she's an Orlesian spy and even is she is telling the truth, it's not prudent for Maric and Loghain to trust her. She got an army wiped out, and whilst you can argue that Loghain did the same at Ostagar, the circumstances are entirely different. Katriel betrayed the rebels to her Orlesian masters, which resulted in them being decimated in battle. Ostagar, however, is a very grey area, and though some choose to believe that Loghain withdrawing caused Cailan's death, it's equally possible that his withdrawl actually saved lives that would otherwise have been wasted against superior darkspawn numbers.



As for romance, Maric had the fool notion that love conquers all, but as king he couldn't marry a woman who was not only an Orlesian spy but an elf, and someone who uses their body as a professional tool. Even Alistair isn't dumb enough to think he can marry a non-noble character in Origins. Loghain basically had to harden him. Dick move, perhaps, but had Katriel been tried officially, she would have been hanged anyway.

[luricanson]

I really hated the decision in Awakenings to burn Amaranthine and save the Vigil. I'd originally chosen to go into the city and save it, assuming that the Vigil would stand because I'd done the ugrades with the dwarves (walls and bombs, etc) and left some well equipped characters there (Justice, Anders, Oghren). I figured maybe it would let me go back and take control of that group a la the gates at Denerim. I finished the city and it told me in a codex that the Vigil fell and everyone DIED! I reloaded and chose to let the city burn instead. Watching the people I'd sworn to protect die SUCKED!

[Sarah1281]

luricanson wrote...

I really hated the decision in Awakenings to burn Amaranthine and save the Vigil. I'd originally chosen to go into the city and save it, assuming that the Vigil would stand because I'd done the ugrades with the dwarves (walls and bombs, etc) and left some well equipped characters there (Justice, Anders, Oghren). I figured maybe it would let me go back and take control of that group a la the gates at Denerim. I finished the city and it told me in a codex that the Vigil fell and everyone DIED! I reloaded and chose to let the city burn instead. Watching the people I'd sworn to protect die SUCKED!

If it fell you did not do all the upgrades. If you want every companion to survive and not mysteriously disappear, take Sigrun, Velanna,and Justice with you.

[Zjarcal]

luricanson wrote...

I really hated the decision in Awakenings to burn Amaranthine and save the Vigil. I'd originally chosen to go into the city and save it, assuming that the Vigil would stand because I'd done the ugrades with the dwarves (walls and bombs, etc) and left some well equipped characters there (Justice, Anders, Oghren). I figured maybe it would let me go back and take control of that group a la the gates at Denerim. I finished the city and it told me in a codex that the Vigil fell and everyone DIED! I reloaded and chose to let the city burn instead. Watching the people I'd sworn to protect die SUCKED!

The codex entries in Awakening are bugged. Even if you did all the upgrades for the Vigil, the codex will tell you that everyone died and that the Vigil was destroyed. However if you wait for the epilogue, you will see this isn't the case.

Certain characters may die at the keep (or disappear) regardless of whether you applied all the upgrades or not. I think that applies only to Velanna and Justice.

[Bahlgan]

Never knew about Katriel, but her gloves somehow are stolen and they end up in Gorim's inventory. When I heard her name for the first time, I was shocked, to say the least! Was she really that horrible as an individual? Loghain has lost all my respect with that move.

And Luricanson, I agree. It's those choices that will leave the Warden crucified no matter which path you allow yourself to follow. When I sacrificed Isolde, on her request, to save her son in Redcliffe, I saw the situation as "choosing the lesser evil". I pictured going to the Circle Tower an unrealistic choice because I didn't want to leave long enough to jeopardize countless citizens to the desire demon.

There will always be choices, one or more, in a game where nothing you do will ever be considered "appreciated" by the masses of people. I believe, however, that DA:O2 might be changing it, or at least improving it, so we can look forward to a little more merciful judgment after all :happy:

Modifié par Bahlgan, 23 juillet 2010 - 08:28 .

[phaonica]

Bahlgan wrote...

Never knew about Katriel, but her gloves somehow are stolen and they end up in Gorim's inventory. When I heard her name for the first time, I was shocked, to say the least! Was she really that horrible as an individual? Loghain has lost all my respect with that move.

And Luricanson, I agree. It's those choices that will leave the Warden crucified no matter which path you allow yourself to follow. When I sacrificed Isolde, on her request, to save her son in Redcliffe, I saw the situation as "choosing the lesser evil". I pictured going to the Circle Tower an unrealistic choice because I didn't want to leave long enough to jeopardize countless citizens to the desire demon.

There will always be choices, one or more, in a game where nothing you do will ever be considered "appreciated" by the masses of people. I believe, however, that DA:O2 might be changing it, or at least improving it, so we can look forward to a little more merciful judgment after all :happy:

You say their are choices that leave the Warden crucified no matter what, you said you had reasons to believe that you were given some unrealistic choices, you say that the game allows for choices that nothing you do will be appreciated, so why do you assume that there were any "good" choices for Maric and Loghain concerning Katriel, and that Loghain heartlessly chose poorly?

I hope DA2 doesn't change this aspect of the game because these choices are, for me, the most memorable thing about the game. They are a major part of the story conflict. If choices were too easy and everyone understood your "lesser of two evil" actions, the story would be pretty boring.

[Sarah1281]

@ Bahlgan: How much do you know about Katriel? She was hardly a victim, you know.

From the wiki...



Katriel was hired by Severan to seduce King Maric and betray him by leading him to capture at the battle of West Hill. However, she soon started to have feelings for him—wondering if she wasn't falling in love with Maric. Even so, she was duty-bound as a bard; she still betrayed Maric's army and caused a terrible defeat for the rebels - more than half of their army was slaughtered that day. During the battle, Katriel learned that King Meghren, during one of his typical rages, ordered that Maric had to be killed by the Bard instead of merely captured. Katriel decided to switch sides and rescue him. If it wasn't for her help, not only Maric would have died, but also Lady Rowan and Loghain, who were outnumbered and gravely wounded by Orlesian soldiers. Only then did Katriel allow herself to fall in love with Maric.



Katriel tried to reveal her true identity and past to Maric during their journey through the Deep Roads, but Maric cut her short, explaining that whatever her past, it didn't matter anymore because she had saved him and his friends, guided them through the Deep Roads, and allowed him to discover true love. Loghain and Rowan found her behavior suspicious, but could not prove she did anything wrong.



At last, Katriel decided to confront Severan to cancel the contract that was binding her to him until she completed her task. Severan argued that a contract with a Bard could not be voided until the task was completed; she retorted that when he changed the terms--killing Maric instead of capturing him--the contract was de facto voided. She could have killed Severan on the spot, but her honor prevented her from doing so.



Loghain suspected something similar. He and Rowan had Katriel followed that night; their scouts then witnessed Katriel's meeting with Severan. Katriel knew she was followed, but nevertheless decided to go back to Maric and confront him with the truth, trusting his judgment with her life. She was so genuinely in love with him and filled with regret for betraying him that she was willing to die for her actions--especially since she had, in fact, fallen in love with Maric. To prove her love for him, Katrial left an envelope waiting to be found by Maric, explaining her regrets and describing how to defeat Severan.



Loghain confronted Maric with the fact Katriel had worked with Severan, without telling Maric she had left his service and was now a wanted woman. Loghain did this to make Maric understand what it means to be a king--that the right thing is not always the good thing, and not always what the king's heart wants. Unaware of her decision to leave Severan's service, Maric slew Katriel, not finding her explanatory letter until after her death. Regardless, he told Rowan "It doesn't change anything" when informed of the truth by Rowan.

[Sabariel]

Zjarcal wrote...

luricanson wrote...

I really hated the decision in Awakenings to burn Amaranthine and save the Vigil. I'd originally chosen to go into the city and save it, assuming that the Vigil would stand because I'd done the ugrades with the dwarves (walls and bombs, etc) and left some well equipped characters there (Justice, Anders, Oghren). I figured maybe it would let me go back and take control of that group a la the gates at Denerim. I finished the city and it told me in a codex that the Vigil fell and everyone DIED! I reloaded and chose to let the city burn instead. Watching the people I'd sworn to protect die SUCKED!

The codex entries in Awakening are bugged. Even if you did all the upgrades for the Vigil, the codex will tell you that everyone died and that the Vigil was destroyed. However if you wait for the epilogue, you will see this isn't the case.

Certain characters may die at the keep (or disappear) regardless of whether you applied all the upgrades or not. I think that applies only to Velanna and Justice.

I don't think just the upgrades determine their survival. I think how high their approval bar determines their fate as well.