294 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

I didn't make any of the really distasteful decisions, except for the Dark Ritual, although Dwarven politics is distasteful in general.

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 It's one thing to kill Connor because you don't trust Jowan, if you refuse to use blood magic, if you think it's too risky, if you got rid of Morrigan and Wynne, if you're playing a very religious/lawful character...but some people (including the one who said they killed Connor to 'troll' Isolde) are killing a child to screw over Isolde and, to me,that is one of the most distasteful things you could do in the game, right up there with wiping out the Dalish because Cammen exists.

Some people right? lol

If you were playing your evil character it's one thing, which I DID kill the Dalish with Doraak. But wow, killing a child, and killing innocents because of one supposedly annoying person. Two words for those lunatics:

Anger Management :innocent:

Modifié par Bahlgan, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:47 .

[Alien1099]

Silvernight wrote...

There are surprisingly many in this game, something I've never seen in another game so far. It's usually much more clear-cut, good or evil and this game is so much more complex in this regard. For me, it must have been executing Loghain. I only did it so Alistair wouldn't leave the party, he was one of my main tanks after all, and I was also interested in him doing Morrigan's ritual too, who doesn't love some healthy drama huh? Loghain might have been a real sonofa*itch but he wasn't beyond redemption, I thought making him a Grey Warden was a great idea. I felt really bad about killing him so I let Alistair do it. Which of course screwed the marriage plans with Anora. And his blood splattering all over Anora looked really morbid. There's just no way being utterly pleased with the outcome here.

Edit: Could someone move this over to a main quest and storylines spoilers forum? I accidentally posted on the wrong forum.

Why feel bad? Somebody that stages a coup de tat resulting in the death of the rightful king and thousands of troops, the murder of your nearly entire family if you're a human noble (he allows howe to steal Highever), starts up a slave trade, the attempted assassination of Arl Eamon to further his political agenda, the resulting aftermath of the attempted assassination resulting in the deaths of an unspecified number of innocent townsfolk in Redcliffe (including women and children), the resulting insecurity of Ferelden after his coup de tat leaving Denerim open to attack by the blight that should have been destroyed at Ostagar, again, resulting in the deaths of untold numbers of civilians etc...

He deserved to die for his crimes, at least a dozen times over.

Modifié par Alien1099, 15 juillet 2010 - 12:14 .

[Annie_Dear]

Master Shiori wrote...

Killing Connor.

No matter what kind of character I play I can never resort to killing children.

Also, the scene where you let Isolde do it is painful as hell. No mother should ever have to kill her own child to spare him the suffering...

I did it once and boy did I feel bad about it.

Also, the way Connor sounds when you tell him you've come to kill him.... it broke my heart, really.

Never again.

[Notsoevildm]

Only completed one playthrough so far. Letting Isolde sacrifice herself was a tough call, but I didn't want to risk the villagers by going to the tower.
However, killing Logain was the one I regret the most. I did it to keep Alistair and put him on the throne. In fact, the whole Landsmeet didn't go well and ended up in a brawl, followed by my HNW duelling and killing Logain and Alistair locking Anora up in the tower. So much for putting some points into cunning and coercion.

Modifié par Notsoevildm, 15 juillet 2010 - 12:49 .

[Kalcalan]

To kill or not to kill Flemeth. The Warden owes her his/her life but Morrigan is clearly in danger of becoming one of Flemeth's victims.



The Connor thing was different as he had to be stopped to save lives in Redcliffe and besides if the Circle is not destroyed you don't even have to kill him or Isolde.

[RunCDFirst]

Most of the decisions were pretty clear-cut and the moral dilemna was undermined by an easy way out (like Connor and the Circle Mages option).



That said, I didn't find any of my decisions distasteful. I supported Harrowmont because he seemed the most trustworthy to provide the reinforcements. When it came down to it, I couldn't put my faith that Bhelen would honour his agreement. Whether Orzammar is better off with one King or another is no concern to my Warden. The Grey Wardens deal with Blights not the day to day affairs of a nation.



Killed what's-his-face of the elves in the mistaken belief that I would get both the cured werewolves and elves to help me. Alas, only got the elves. I still am annoyed there wasn't an option for my Warden to request the werewolves assistance for solving all their problems and saving them.



Anvil was easy. Might have been a trickier decision if all of them had been volunteers but it was clear to use the anvil would require slavery and the like. Plus, I had Shale with me.



It made political sense for Loghain to be inducted into the Grey Wardens. Let Alistair throw his little tantrum... just please leave the juggernaut armour by the door on the way out.



With Loghain, the Dark Ritual is a no brainer. There's no chance that Morrigan would raise this child properly and with her promise I'd never see it... well then there's no point in doing it. I have a contingency plan already, thanks.

[Sarah1281]

the murder of your nearly entire family if you're a human noble (he allows howe to steal Highever),

This probably doesn't make it any better but...Loghain had nothing to do with the Couslands deaths. Your character can't know that but it's Word of God. Still, he did allow Howe to get away with it which is still rage-inducing. Maybe as a non-HN Loghain doesn't know for sure that Howe was behind it or buys his 'it's the Orlesians fault' excuse but as a HN he heard about it straight from you.

[Thomas9321]

Is gotta be the Loghain decision. On the one hand his crimes are obscene and he deserves to be punished. On the other hand considering all he's done for Ferelden he deserves a chance at redemption. However sparing him is a betrayal of Alistair that, after everything you go through together is abominable. Yet. . . GAH! It's the best written scenario I have ever seen in a video game. And it's utterly cruel to the player.

[Sarah1281]

That really depends if you view 'making a decision not to kill someone that Alistair really wants dead' to be a betrayal of him which I don't. If I allowed Anora to execute him instead of putting him on the throne as well then THAT I would consider a betrayal.

[OBakaSama]

One dilemma that no-one has mentioned I'd like to bring up, though it isn't significant to the game itself.

What do other players think of the desire demon and the Templar in the Tower? Or is that choice so clear-cut that it doesn't warrent a discussion? Just wondering, don't mind me.

Modifié par OBakaSama, 15 juillet 2010 - 02:26 .

[RavenousBear]

I always kill it, no matter what character I play as (good, evil, etc.). I would rather die than live in an artificial world with fake happiness with a demon controlling the environment.

[CalJones]

The desire demon decision was discussed on the first and second pages of this thread, in some detail.



Re: the Landsmeet decision, it really does depend on your perception of Loghain and Alistair.

The game sets Loghain up to be the villain (rather like Death's Hand in Jade Empire) but scratch below the surface and it's not nearly as clear cut as that.

Firstly, it depends on how you see his crimes. Alien1099 clearly thinks he is responsible for a lot more than he actually is.

The Cousland massacre was carried out by Howe, without Loghain's knowledge (confirmed by David Gaider in another thread I can't be bothered to find - sorry). He is not responsible for that, though he is responsible for giving Howe more power, which isn't a great move.

He is guilty of allowing the Tevinters to enslave the elves in the alienage. He is also guilty of having Eamon poisoned, but the intention was to take him out of the picture for a while, not permanently: see David Gaider's explanation here.

The Recliffe debacle may have resulted more indirectly. Loghain was only able to send Jowan to infiltrate the household because Eamon's idiot wife was looking for an apostate to tutor her son because she was hiding his magical ability from everyone else. She bears even more responsibility for what happened there.

And the coup? Again, a matter of perception. I don't believe Loghain set out to get Cailan killed. My take on it is that he believed (rightly or wrongly) that once the king had ignored his advice to stay back where it was safer, he couldn't be saved.

I don't believe Loghain wanted power for it's own sake - he certainly doesn't seem happy being regent and appears relieved once he has to give it up.

His fall from grace happens because he believes that, having once defeated the Orlesians, he is the only person capable of guiding Fereldan back to safety - wrongly, as it turns out. And that puts him on a path to worse and worse acts. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say.

So, all things considered, my own feeling is that he deserves his redemption.



Alistair is a very different character. He is funny and charming, and it's hard not to like him. However, he has an overly idealised view of the wardens and is quick to jump to conclusions. Let's face - he's not terribly mature. He expects the Warden to lead and make the big decisions, yet if you choose something he doesn't like, he flies off the handle. When he demands Loghain's death by snapping "kill him already" I just want to punch him in the face, friend or otherwise. I don't feel I'm betraying him any more than if I was denying a toddler his lollipop. Again, a matter of perception, but when it comes to the choice between denying a once great man the chance to redeem himself and denying an immature friend the chance to kill a man, the choice is pretty clear for me. As I said previously, I killed Loghain in my first game and felt absolutely horrible about it. Never again.

[SirOccam]

Most distasteful for me was "killing" Flemeth.

She had never been anything but helpful to my Grey Warden, yet he trusted Morrigan (at least in that)...or maybe was just looking for a way to demonstrate how much he cared for her...and in his mind, Morrigan > Flemeth.

[21121313]

For me it was whether or not to defile the sacred ashes. After finding out they were the real deal the first time through it made it really hard to decide to do it even for the trophy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Loghain deserved to die from the moment of what i considered a major betrayal. My first warden enjoyed thwopping his head off.

Isolde deserved what she got. I like to point to the end of the Wrath of Khan and the many>then the few or the one line from Spock. She didn't only place Redcliffe in harm's way, but the whole nation. The only real loss there was that nice rack she had.

Branka was easy as well. As i was listening to her while she was merrily using my party as her final chance to get to the Anvil, i thought a boot in the rear just wasn't going to cut it.....

Leliana vs. Morrigan was easy as well. I got very tired of dating Morrigan types in real life....there's no future there, either. At least with Leliana i know there might be a better chance she would more then likely stick around until i had to head to the Deep Roads.

I could say that the worst decision was really finding myself having to play some other games that i wanted to finish, thereby forcing myself to have to stop playing this amazing game.....but that's not in game, sadly.

P.S.: I sure was gald i got to kill Goldanna in the DS DLC. She rankled my nerves as well.

Modifié par 21121313, 15 juillet 2010 - 06:55 .

[Luthien Lossehelin]

The worst one was picking between Behlen and Harrowmont - mostly because it was the last place I went before the Landsmeet and by that point I really just didn't care. So essentially I was making a desicion that could have long-lasting consequences for the Dwarves when all I wanted to do was make them arm-wrestle for the damn crown.



Having read some of the other posts here, I think killing vs. not killing Loghain is actually pretty distasteful - in-game you don't really get to see the 'bigger picture' per se, so it's difficult to make an informed dicision. Of course on my first playthrough I was romancing Alistair so my choice was predetermined, but still...

[tybbiesniffer]

I'm surprised that everyone found the Connor decision so hard; I found that to be one of the easiest decisions (depending on the character). My dwarf was taciturn and didn't ask a lot of questions; she didn't get any other option besides killing him. My mage, who loved the Circle, had just rescued it; she had no intention of using blood magic or sending a potential abomination-to-be off the Circle she'd just saved from blood mages and abominations.



I find killing the elves to be the hardest choice. It just doesn't seem rational at all the way it's approached in the game. The werewolves want to talk to Zathrian and here I come, out of nowhere, with a line something like "I've got a better idea. Kill the elves." Unless I played a character that truly hated elves, I can't see how this line is even an option; there's no reason behind it.

[Sarah1281]

Do you even have to ask questions in order to get the option to do blood magic? Doesn't Jowan, if he's alive, suggest it unprompted?

[tybbiesniffer]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Do you even have to ask questions in order to get the option to do blood magic? Doesn't Jowan, if he's alive, suggest it unprompted?

My dwarf left Jowan in the cell.  When he was brought up by Isolde (Teagan?), the dwarf said he couldn't be trusted and they moved on witout fetching him (I actually didn't know that woud happen).  If she had told them he was still in the cell, they would have brought him up from the dungeons and he would have mentioned the ritual.

Modifié par tybbiesniffer, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:33 .

[Time4Tiddy]

My least favorite decision was dealing with the Desire Demon to get blood magic. Personally, I feel when playing a game like this, if I choose blood magic in a playthrough, I have to see it through to the end, not reload with the spec open. I knew it was a shady decision, and when the epilogue said that he had disappeared into the night a few months after your deal, and that Arl Eamon looked for him for years before giving up in despair, I felt terrible. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but it was definitely a heartsick moment.



Also, the first time I romanced Alistair, and tried to spare Loghain, the speech Alistair gives to a romantic interest is absolutely heartbreaking. Something along the lines of "I never thought I could be so happy, and I never thought *you* would be the one to take it away from me." Gah! Now THAT was a game I had to reload and redo the Landsmeet, I couldn't live with myself.

[Time4Tiddy]

Thomas9321 wrote...

Is gotta be the Loghain decision. On the one hand his crimes are obscene and he deserves to be punished. On the other hand considering all he's done for Ferelden he deserves a chance at redemption. However sparing him is a betrayal of Alistair that, after everything you go through together is abominable. Yet. . . GAH! It's the best written scenario I have ever seen in a video game. And it's utterly cruel to the player.

For my "canon" playthrough, I spared Loghain and allowed him to be redeemed by killing the archdemon.  If you have hardened Alistair and made a deal for him to marry Anora, he will stick around to become king, and actually later tell you that he understands why you made that decision, even if he cannot approve of it personally.

IMO, the ideal ending -for Ferelden- is one in which Anora (an experienced ruler) and Alistair (royal blood) marry, to minimize strife, and the people's hero worship for Loghain can be upheld through his sacrifice.  Of course, for this ending you will lose Morrigan, as well as any hope of romancing Alistair or becoming consort to either ruler.  But you do live! 

[SirOccam]

21121313 wrote...

For me it was whether or not to defile the sacred ashes. After finding out they were the real deal the first time through it made it really hard to decide to do it even for the trophy.

I knew I was just going to do it for the achievement, but it wasn't so much the ashes as having to kill Leliana and Wynne. As if it weren't bad enough, it triggered the "decapitation" finishing move on Leliana and I literally felt sick. So as soon as it was over I quickly hit F9...and then I found out you have to go all the way back out to Kolgrim to actually get the achievement. So I had to do it again.

Time4Tiddy wrote...

Also, the first time I romanced
Alistair, and tried to spare Loghain, the speech Alistair gives to a
romantic interest is absolutely heartbreaking. Something along the
lines of "I never thought I could be so happy, and I never thought
*you* would be the one to take it away from me." Gah! Now THAT was a
game I had to reload and redo the Landsmeet, I couldn't live with
myself.

Alistair has some of the most powerful dialogue in the whole game, and it happens right there. I never played an Alistair-romancing character that far through, but even on my "platonic" playthroughs his righteous anger is almost too much to bear.

PC: "I'm sorry, but I really feel like this is for the best"
Al: "I get that you think so."
Al: "Loghain let all the Grey Wardens die, let his king die, all because he thought he alone could defend Ferelden against the dreaded Orlesians!"
Al: "No matter what your plans are, he deserved to die. He deserved justice! And you made him ONE OF US!"

It's such a shock to hear mild-mannered Alistair shouting at you. There's also another line, something about how he betrayed everyone and "you gave him the highest honor I can think of."

I felt almost as bad about that as I did when I read unhardened Leliana's epilogue if your Warden romanced her and made the US.

And yet, I can't bring myself to kill Loghain, because for one thing, the terms of the duel were that it last until one side yields. It wasn't to the death. Loghain yielded. For another thing, I mean his daughter is right there. And their brief dialogue if you do decide to kill him is so freaking sad.

Modifié par SirOccam, 15 juillet 2010 - 09:33 .

[CalJones]

Yes, that speech got to me as well. I generally tend to show mercy to most characters anyway, so it goes against my nature to kill him, especially not in front of Anora. The cutscene if you do is utterly brutal. Consequently, I've never managed to romance Al past Landsmeet.



Killing Connor is also heart-rending but I only did it once, just to see it, and then reloaded. If it's a choice between Connor and his idiot mother, then she dies every time.



I must admit I do have a problem with killing Flemmeth. Perhaps she is an ancient abomination, as Morrigan claims (though I find it hard to trust Morrigan), but she's the reason you survived Ostagar and whilst she might have an ulterior motive, I find it hard to repay her by killing her. It's actually a tough decision for me - if Morrigan is telling the truth then she's in danger, but on the other hand, argh!

[tybbiesniffer]

CalJones wrote...

I must admit I do have a problem with killing Flemmeth. Perhaps she is an ancient abomination, as Morrigan claims (though I find it hard to trust Morrigan), but she's the reason you survived Ostagar and whilst she might have an ulterior motive, I find it hard to repay her by killing her. It's actually a tough decision for me - if Morrigan is telling the truth then she's in danger, but on the other hand, argh!

I agree completely.  Every time I go to Flemeth I silently hope that THIS time she'll either confirm or deny Morrigan's accusations.  <sigh>  And everytime she just speaks ambiguous rubbish and I have no idea what is "right" or "wrong".

[lizzbee]

I spared Loghain once for the achievement, and now killing him is the hardest decision in the game for me, even though I usually side with Alistair. I found I really liked him as a person: he's logical, practical, and has his own driving sense of morality and loyalty to the land. He made some crappy decisions that he thought were necessary, and all of them backfired pretty spectacularly on him. It's almost as hard as choosing Bhelen in Orzammar, even though that's the best decision for the dwarves.

I've never been able to attack the Dalish. None of them are responsible for what Zathrian did, and I've had a hard time even persuading Zathrian to kill himself for the sake of the werewolves. He had every right to be angry, and to punish those who killed his children. The werewolves' eagerness to attack my Warden, even when I've tried to talk to them peacefully, really sticks in my craw. They only try to reason when I've slaughtered my way to the Lady of the Forest, and not before when they could have saved many of their own kind with a simple conversation. I usually do persuade Zathrian to give up his life, but I really hate doing it, especially when the werewolves are so eager to turn on my Warden yet again in the course of that conversation. It was oddly therapeutic slaughtering them on one playthrough.

I hate killing Flemeth also, but I hate lying to Morrigan even more, after she's taken so many blows for my party.

Modifié par lizzbee, 16 juillet 2010 - 05:47 .