294 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

All my city elves kill Loghain. Killing him in front of his daughter is awful, but then againa so is having your father kidnapped by a blood mage to be sold in Tevinter. Zevran gets a second chance because his lame assassination attempt was directed at me, personally and not my family, and he is an elf. Loghain is human, noble and old enough to know that his actions can and should bite him on his arse. My Couslands kill him for similar reasons. If Anora and Eleanor were such good pals, why was Howe even walking?



My mages and dwarves spare Loghain. There's nothing personal about killing him and he may prove useful.

[Giggles_Manically]

The story descions I know well in advance by now and how my charachters are going to do them .



Usually its gear choices and enchantment! options that make me stop and think at this point.

I agonize a lot more over who is getting Wades armor or which weapon works best with who. Not to bash story descions but with 9 full PT done I can see exactly how each one will go at the start.

[maxernst]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

What I really think is that after the game was completed, David Gaider saw that Loghain comes across as a blacker villain than he intended and he backpedaled to try and keep the character's behavior in keeping with the books. But based on just what my PC sees in the game, he's either a totally evil tyrant bent on doing anything for power or he's insane (which both Anora and Ser Cauthrien seem to think). Sorry, I'll take immature over crazy any day.

Oh? So anyone who plays the game and makes the choice based on IN-GAME knowledge cannot have a bloody reason to spare Loghain?

Oh, absolutely.  It boils down to your perception of Loghain...but I have to say I came into the game with even less knowledge than you (didn't even know who Loghain was)and didn't trust him from the moment I met him.  I was an HN PC, and I didn't know Howe would turn up at his side later in the game, I just reacted to the way he's portrayed in the .  In fact, almost my first forum post came after Ostagar when I complained that once again Bioware had telegraphed his betrayal in advance so obviously.  And then when I saw him again at Landsmeet and he was frothing at the mouth about Orlais and this not being a true blight while half the kingdom is overrun by Darkspawn, he frankly seemed nuts to me. 

And more than once you have argued that the only reason anyone kills Loghain is for revenge or for love of Alistair, and no "true grey warden" would ever do it, so your indignation is kind of humorous.  Knight of Phoenix is correct--there are many reasons you could go either way.  But my subjective perception of Loghain--what I see of him in the game--makes it hard for me to spare him, although I'm aware that there's a disconnect between his reputation and this perception.  Too hard to trust, particularly when you're forced to make a choice between him and someone who may have less upside but is far less risky.

[Sarah1281]

That is a huge pet peeve of mine: people who say 'I really wanted to spare Loghain but Alistair...'

I know that there are plenty of people who have their own reasons to kill Loghain and maybe just add Alistair's indignation on top of it but there are some people who have admitted that the only reason he dies is because of how much they love Alistair and how he feels about it. For example: 'But I was romancing Alistair so we all know what happened to Loghain.'

Of course, there's really no point in arguing about that since I can't see the validity of you personally thinking it over, weighing his crimes against his potential and choosing not to kill him...and then realizing Alistair will leave and saying '**** redemption and  pragamtism, Alistair doesn't like it.'

Though admittedly, I've more often found this position on reviews on ff.net than here where people who kill him generally have non-Alistair-related reasons to do so as well.

[Giggles_Manically]

hehehe --->

[Sarah1281]

Well, at least this time it's on topic. The Landsmeet has several difficult choices.

[Giggles_Manically]

Well every thread it seems wanders back to Loghain in due time.



The simple rule of the DA Social forum, all threads orbit loghain.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Another common misconception is that those who spare Loghain necessarily have to do it to spite Alistair. Which is not true in most cases.

In fact, I am making a characer who loves Alistair, but could still not bring herself to kill Loghain. Too many factors involved in that decision to simplify it to one sole factor and ignore the rest, even if yes there are a few people who do that on both sides.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 juillet 2010 - 02:25 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

KoP DPing?
That never happened before.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 juillet 2010 - 02:24 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Around David Xanatos all things are possible KoP

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Of course, there's really no point in arguing about that since I can't see the validity of you personally thinking it over, weighing his crimes against his potential and choosing not to kill him...and then realizing Alistair will leave and saying '**** redemption and  pragamtism, Alistair doesn't like it.'

Though admittedly, I've more often found this position on reviews on ff.net than here where people who kill him generally have non-Alistair-related reasons to do so as well.

You really can't understand why someone's personal loyalties might override their sense of the big picture?  That strikes me as very cold.  I can totally sympahize with Ser Cauthrien and Anora.  I even have some sympathy for Isolde.  I have a much harder time seeing the point of view of characters like Loghain and Branka who's loyalty to abstract ideas is so total that they verge on seeing other people purely as tools to achieve their ends. 

This E.M. Forster quote strikes me as possibly apropos:

"If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country"

[Sarah1281]

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Of course, there's really no point in arguing about that since I can't see the validity of you personally thinking it over, weighing his crimes against his potential and choosing not to kill him...and then realizing Alistair will leave and saying '**** redemption and  pragamtism, Alistair doesn't like it.'

Though admittedly, I've more often found this position on reviews on ff.net than here where people who kill him generally have non-Alistair-related reasons to do so as well.

You really can't understand why someone's personal loyalties might override their sense of the big picture?  That strikes me as very cold.  I can totally sympahize with Ser Cauthrien and Anora.  I even have some sympathy for Isolde.  I have a much harder time seeing the point of view of characters like Loghain and Branka who's loyalty to abstract ideas is so total that they verge on seeing other people purely as tools to achieve their ends. 

This E.M. Forster quote strikes me as possibly apropos:

"If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country"

I can see why they'd feel bad about it and I know that I'm not happy that Alistair gets so upset. Just the same, I cannot see why you would kill someone because he gets upset. Cold or not, there you go.

Edit: And I don't see 'not killing someone Alistair wants dead' as 'betraying' him anyway, though I do recognize that he sees it that way.

And I really disagree with that quote. If it came down to it...is it really for the best to commit freaking treason because you're friend is? And you realize that you just made the comparison between killing Loghain and betraying Ferelden?

Modifié par Sarah1281, 17 juillet 2010 - 03:04 .

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Of course, there's really no point in arguing about that since I can't see the validity of you personally thinking it over, weighing his crimes against his potential and choosing not to kill him...and then realizing Alistair will leave and saying '**** redemption and  pragamtism, Alistair doesn't like it.'

Though admittedly, I've more often found this position on reviews on ff.net than here where people who kill him generally have non-Alistair-related reasons to do so as well.

You really can't understand why someone's personal loyalties might override their sense of the big picture?  That strikes me as very cold.  I can totally sympahize with Ser Cauthrien and Anora.  I even have some sympathy for Isolde.  I have a much harder time seeing the point of view of characters like Loghain and Branka who's loyalty to abstract ideas is so total that they verge on seeing other people purely as tools to achieve their ends. 

This E.M. Forster quote strikes me as possibly apropos:

"If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country"

I can see why they'd feel bad about it and I know that I'm not happy that Alistair gets so upset. Just the same, I cannot see why you would kill someone because he gets upset. Cold or not, there you go.

Edit: And I don't see 'not killing someone Alistair wants dead' as 'betraying' him anyway, though I do recognize that he sees it that way.

That's because of how you frame the question, which is why I object to the "not klilling someone Alistair wants dead" formulation.  You could also see it as choosing his worst enemy over him to be your companion..still doesn't sound like a betrayal?

As far as whether Alistair really will only accept Loghain dead, there's no proof of that.  He doesn't threaten to leave the Wardens until Riordan tries to make him a warden.  There are lots of other places where he's objected to your actions without abandoning the cause.  He If there were a third "middle" option that left Loghain alive but didn't require Alistair working with him on a day-to-day basis,my guess is he'd take it with a hefty disapproval bump. 

[Sarah1281]

Well, Alistair wants Loghain dead. Justified or not, there it is. If you do not kill him, Alistair sees that as a betrayal. Hence what I said is totally accurate. Alistair sees Loghain as his worst enemy ever whereas Loghain sees him more as 'Maric's bastard child who would be Cailain 2.0 and who Eamon is trying to use to unseat my daughter because he's in love with the Theirin bloodline' which, unhardened, I'd have to agree with. Hardened Alistair makes a much better King, but given his lack of training it's understandable why people in general would doubt this.



I didn't go out intending to choose one over the other. If Alistair thinks that by failing to kill Loghain then I totally chose Loghain over him even though I put him on the throne and he was the one to walk way then I acknowledge that HE sees it as a betrayal but no, I still don't. If I let him get killed then yes, that would be a betrayal. He wasn't going to be able to stay with the Wardens past the Archdemon fight ANYWAY since he's King now and so keeping him out of the fight could really be for his own good as it ensures that he stays alive to be King even without knowing about the US. Then again, even if I did see it as a betrayal then it wouldn't matter as I would rather 'betray' a friend then kill someone who I believe should not be killed. I think 'killing someone because someone else wants you to even if you disagree and have another option' ranks a little higher on the list of things you shouldn't do than 'doing something that a friend disagrees with so strongly they feel deeply betrayed.'



And it doesn't matter if Alistair 'may' have stayed if you didn't make him a Warden because that's not an option. You get 'kill him or GW him' and thus it's your lack of killing him that makes him leave. No one suggests imprisonment and exiles can be dangerous. The Landsmeet called upon you to kill him until Riordan gave another option.



Honestly, though, unless you're really one of those people who would be Pro-Loghain if it wasn't for Alistair's reaction (and given how strongly you're defending his POV it sounds like you have some issues with Loghain yourself and might kill him anyway) I really wasn't talking about you.



Betrayal is subjective, I'm not arguing that Alistair does not see himself as betrayed, I'm not arguing that Alistair is delusional for seeing himelf as betrayed, but you're just not going to convince me that I should feel I betrayed him and I'm not looking to convince you that you shouldn't feel that is a betrayal. And I really don't care if he would have stayed or not because you don't get that option.

[Giggles_Manically]

Good stuff Sarah!



I spared Loghain on my mage since Duncan spared him in the tower, my Dalish spared him since he thought that after all that Riordian went through he must have something, and my DN spared him since throwing an ally out is a waste.



My CE killed no question on that, as did my DC who had trust issues with people.



I go back and forth on this issue on one hand loghain is clearly deluded, on the other Alistiar is so focused on revenge for DUNCAN that he puts everything behind that, even the woman he claims to love since killing him and then demeanding the throne before thinking was a litte rash.

[CalJones]

If I'd had the choice I would have let Loghain live and continue as general, which is what he's good at, rather than inducting him into the Wardens. I don't think Alistair would have gone for that, either, though, if I'm being honest.

In my first playthrough - the one where I killed Loghain - I thought Alistair seemed like a great guy and he I had him up there as my favourite companion.

In my second, when I spared Loghain and heard Alistair's outburst for the first time, I actually saw him as a bit of a monster. I didn't have a hard time disappointing Alistair; rather, it found him rather difficult to like after that.

Consequently, his is the only romance I've been unable to complete all the way to the epilogue which, for a straight female gamer, is quite a feat.

[maxernst]

The game doesn't really allow you to make a decision on this, but I've always found going to Haven and killing off practically the entire town (or half of it if you side with Colgrim in the end) on a quest for some legendary artifact pretty distasteful. I'd rather just say, "Sorry, but I don't have time for wild goose chases. If Eammon doesn't recover, Teagann, you're just going to have to step up for the plate. You don't have quite as much pull at the Landsmeet, but we'll have to make do."

[InvaderErl]

To be fair, that town of people are slaughtering others for even coming into contact with them.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 17 juillet 2010 - 05:39 .

[Sarah1281]

You only have to kill the ones up on the mountain (which, admittedly, is any of their warriors which really decimates their male population) if you just refrain from clicking on the bloody altar in the villager house and going into the back of the store the guy stops you from doing if you try to do it. Going straight to the Chantry means you don't have to kill anyone but the Father and his lackey's in Haven itself thoug most of their men are up on the mountain throwing themselves at you.

[Giggles_Manically]

Also many women die as well since there is at least 6 mages, and over a dozen assassains who are female you kill.

[Sarah1281]

I do wonder if the town is even sustainable after you leave. Their only real chance for normality, I think, is killing their Andraste-dragon.

[maxernst]

That seemed to be true on my second playthrough, but the first time I don't think I had done either of those things and I walked out of the chantry to check if the coast was clear before telling Genitivi I was ready to go to the ruins. I was attacked by a bunch of villagers outside the Chantry...maybe it's based on whether or not you go straight to the ruins or not.

As to the town, it seems to me (at least based on their behavior toward me) that they don't attack people unless they're nosy. Based on how Duncan handles Ser Jory, somebody walking in on a Grey Warden joining ceremony wouldn't be treated any more kindly.

Edited to add:  and if you don't kill the dragon for them, after you've wiped out all their warriors and mages, I think it's safe to say they have no hope of doing it themselves, even if they want to.  Attacking it would just hasten their extinction.

Come to think of it, I didn't really like having to kill Jarvia's entire group, either...

Modifié par maxernst, 17 juillet 2010 - 05:56 .

[Sarah1281]

Well, not most of them. The Father at the Chantry, however, if you don't mention Genitivi at all or ask questions but apologize for interrupting and try to leave then he'll attack you to try and make sure no one finds out about Haven.

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, not most of them. The Father at the Chantry, however, if you don't mention Genitivi at all or ask questions but apologize for interrupting and try to leave then he'll attack you to try and make sure no one finds out about Haven.

Well, yes...but you are told not to go to the chantry.  And I think if you do return to the world and report their unorthodox religion, the town may (rightly in my opinion) fear that the Chantry will come and exterminate the heretics.

[DWSmiley]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I do wonder if the town is even sustainable after you leave. Their only real chance for normality, I think, is killing their Andraste-dragon.

Metagaming suggests the town is sustainable after.  If you killed the merchant but become buddies with Kolgrim, a new merchant was supposed to open up shop but that didn't get implemented.  It seems credible as long as Haven is a fair bit bigger than the part you walk around in, and you can see more houses past the other entrance to the village.