294 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

The toolset says that merchant was the brother of the first one, though, so it's all in the family and given their near-complete isolation since the town was founded centuries ago I'm not sure how big it can possibly be.

[maxernst]

It's difficult for isolated mountain villages to get very large because they're limited in size by the amount of cultivable land nearby. There's only so much food that can be produced locally.

[DWSmiley]

Lots of fish in that lake?

[TMZuk]

Choosing between Bhelen and Harrowmont. A good leader/bad person vs. a bad leader/good person.

In the end, the casteless and the Legion of the Dead was what made me decide for Bhelen. On a sidenote, Bhelen reminds me of Josef Stalin. "One person dead is a tragedy. A million dead people is statistic". *wince*

Modifié par TMZuk, 17 juillet 2010 - 06:19 .

[darth_lopez]

DWSmiley wrote...

Lots of fish in that lake?

-.-...well played sir well played

Modifié par darth_lopez, 17 juillet 2010 - 06:21 .

[Bahlgan]

I don't even think that it is considered normal to let those people live. I mean, they perverse a religion, all for their personal pleasure. Minus religion, they don't have those awesome British accents; they MUST go!

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

I don't even think that it is considered normal to let those people live. I mean, they perverse a religion, all for their personal pleasure. Minus religion, they don't have those awesome British accents; they MUST go!

What are you talking about? They don't 'perverse a religion for their pleasure.' They've been isolated and possibly inbred depending on Haven's size for far too long. They see a dragon and Kolgrim's grandfather, their leader, declares it must be Andraste reborn. Those alive when you arrive grew up with the knowledge that that was Andraste.

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

What are you talking about? They don't 'perverse a religion for their pleasure.' They've been isolated and possibly inbred depending on Haven's size for far too long. They see a dragon and Kolgrim's grandfather, their leader, declares it must be Andraste reborn. Those alive when you arrive grew up with the knowledge that that was Andraste.

I am saying that the ancestors of Kolgrim are responsible for perversing the religion of Andraste. If you take your time talking to the Guardian, he even informs you an ancestor of Kolgrim is solely responsible for murdering those who defied his "prophecies" until they all gave in.

Now granted, those in Haven's society during your walkthrough were raised to believe it out of authenticity, doesn't change that it is perverted now.

[OBakaSama]

Well, it is (or was) a cult.

The problem with Haven is that before you go up the mountain, however much you try not to pry, you end up being attacked. Story-wise, assuming you go to Genitivi's house in Denerim, go to the Spoiled Princess at Lake Calenhad, back to Genitivi's (or go to Genitivi's and find out the truth there and then), you know these people have been willing to kill people just asking the 'wrong' questions. Something strikes the character as very strange, meta-gaming being put aside. Having to kill a village of people may be distasteful, but in the game it seems that they force you into that situation. Had Kolgrim been at Haven and the same offer made, that might be different; but no such offer was forthcoming at that time.

The curious thing is, the Ashes have been there all along and while it's conceivable that a group of people may be charged with the task to protect the Ashes (like some other stories may do) like the Guardian, that isn't the aim of the people of Haven. (Might have to check up a codex entry again on that.)

Modifié par OBakaSama, 17 juillet 2010 - 08:53 .

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

What are you talking about? They don't 'perverse a religion for their pleasure.' They've been isolated and possibly inbred depending on Haven's size for far too long. They see a dragon and Kolgrim's grandfather, their leader, declares it must be Andraste reborn. Those alive when you arrive grew up with the knowledge that that was Andraste.

I am saying that the ancestors of Kolgrim are responsible for perversing the religion of Andraste. If you take your time talking to the Guardian, he even informs you an ancestor of Kolgrim is solely responsible for murdering those who defied his "prophecies" until they all gave in.

Now granted, those in Haven's society during your walkthrough were raised to believe it out of authenticity, doesn't change that it is perverted now.

I blame the male priests - which the Tevinter Chantry also uses - on Haven being founded and isolated before the Chantry decided to stick with women priests. And this is what the Guardian has to say about that: 

PC: Kolgrim and his followers do not regard you very highly.
Guardian: Kolgrim knows not of what he speaks. His heart is laced with poison and he has led many astray.
PC: And what about you? Who are you?
Guardian: I am all that remains of the first disciples. I swore I would protect the Urn as long as I lived, and I have lived a very long time.
PC: Who are the men who have taken over the rest of the temple?
Guardian: When my brethren and I carried Andraste from Tevinter to this sanctuary, we vowed to forever revere Her memory, and guard Her. I have watched generations of my brethren take up the mantle of their fathers. For centuries they did this, unwavering, joyful, in their appointed task. But now they have lost their way. They have forgotten Andraste, and their promise.
PC: In a sense, they haven't forgotten Her.
Guardian: They have forgotten that Andraste was just a messenger. They speak no more of the Maker, only of their false Andraste, an even greater sin.
PC: So the dragon is not Andraste then?
Guardian: No. Our Andraste has gone to the Maker's side. She will not return. The dragon is a fearsome creature, and they must have seen her as an alternative to the absent Maker and His silent Andraste. A true believer would not require audacious displays of power. It began with an ancestor of the one known as Kolgrim. He saw himself as a new prophet, preaching the rebirth. Some disagreed with him. I heard their cries of pain and loss which were quickly silenced.

In other words...after centuries of waiting for Andraste, a dragon moved in. The grandfather was impressed and came to believe, like many before him who formed Dragon cults or worshipped the Old Gods, that it must be a higher power. And who better than Adraste who ashes they had been protecting?

Some agreed, some didn't. Don't make the mistake in thinking that had he lost he woulddn't have been killed. Exatled Marches are a cherished part of the Chantry's history, after all. His silencing his critics, while not good, was not something that set him apart from the Chantry at large or the Qunari with their Qun.

[maxernst]

"Cult" and "perverted" are loaded terms. What standard do you use to make such value judgements? Even if we assume that the guardian's account of what the original followers of Andraste believed, and any deviation from the original faith is a perversion, a case could be made that the Chantry is also a perversion. Leliana's beliefs about the Maker are unorthodox--is she also perverting the faith?

[Sarah1281]

I think they are called a dragon cult in the game but you're right that there are a lot of negative connotations assosiated with that word.

[mousestalker]

They are called a dragon cult in the game. The negative connotations are likely deliberate. Just about everyone you encounter outside of Haven or Sten were raised by the Chantry. Andraste got her start fighting a war against the official Tevinter dragon religion.



However, it's pretty clear that the Havenites practise human sacrifice. I think one of codex entires discusses human sacrifice as a trademark of dragon worship.

[Bahlgan]

maxernst wrote...

"Cult" and "perverted" are loaded terms. What standard do you use to make such value judgements? Even if we assume that the guardian's account of what the original followers of Andraste believed, and any deviation from the original faith is a perversion, a case could be made that the Chantry is also a perversion. Leliana's beliefs about the Maker are unorthodox--is she also perverting the faith?

Make no mistake, it IS a cult. Their religion became perverted when it involved the sacrifices and spilling of blood of many people, not to mention the townsfolk and the Knights of Redcliffe, INNOCENT LIVES. Honestly, guys, if nothing else, common sense and the understanding of the value of a human life in general will do wonders to your enlightenment. Now, I understand there is a multi perception to common sense, so forgive me if I seem like a dick with my opinion, but if you disagree with me on this, you're essentially reinforcing the belief that it is perfectly natural to slay innocent lives for religious purposes.

As far as the Leliana question goes; Yes that is true, Leliana's beliefs can most certainly be viewed as a perversion, and the Chantry may have perverted their beliefs in how to treat mages. Perhaps before current time in Ferelden, mages might have been actually treated with respect universally, minus the maleficarum. Leliana, however, does not call upon the damnation of others and spilling forth of innocent blood to have her way of life circulated. THAT makes all the difference ever needed. So by definition of perversion in my context, usually applies to changes in principles for the worst of humankind.. Or elfkind... Or dwarfkind...

[Sarah1281]

I just disagree with your claim that they do it all for the lulz and for the implication that killing everyone who disagrees with you is a unique aspect of Kolgrim's grandfather's religious cult even in the game.

[thegreateski]

Cults are classified as being harmful to their members in some way. Kolgrim's cultists are harmful to anybody who is not them.

Kolgrim's group would technically be a "religion of evil".

Modifié par thegreateski, 18 juillet 2010 - 02:33 .

[Elhanan]

Kolgrim needs more fiber in his diet; too much red meat and whine....

[Giggles_Manically]

Cult is a subjective term based on perspective. A main line Chantry thinker like Wynne and Alistair would perceive them as a cult, as would Leliana. Zevran would also think of them as a cult.



Morrigan would place them as more frothing religious nuts, right where she places the rest of them, while Sten and Shale would not really care, just more evidence as to why humans are strange to them.



Besides I always kill Kolgrim, or Shale does at least.

[lizzbee]

Sarah1281 wrote...
@ lizzbee: Several of the Dalish admit that they had an idea that Zathrian was doing that so I don't think they're completely innocent though I don't believe they deserved to be slaughtered for that. Still, if you were one of the werewolves who had been cursed for generations because of what your ancestors did and had difficulty controlling your bestial nature at the best of times and could do nothing without Witherfang but your countless attempts to at least meet with the one person who could end your constant suffering was blatantly ignored, what would you do? I'm not saying they did a good thing but I honestly don't see what else they could have done once Zathrian chose to ignore their every effort to seek him out. If they had done nothing then Zathrian wouldn't have even sent you after them and so you couldn't have gotten a chance to help them. If they did nothing they'd continue to suffer and Zathrian would continue to be unrepentent and feel perfectlyl justified in his vengeance. He wouldn't live forever and so sooner or later he'd die and leave them trapped forever. Being saints would have doomed them for sure in this case.

What I would have done if I was Swiftrunner was suss out the situation a bit better when the Warden approaches the first time, and maybe say something like, "Hrrr!  Zathrian created the curse, and we're making his people suffer so he'll come to us and break it.  Snarl.  Snarl.  So what are you going to do about it?  So, are you going to kill us and Witherfang, or are you going to tell him to get his act together?  Hrrr."  As to the rest, rather than infecting innocents, I'd probably suffer with dignity, to be perfectly honest.

But it's a "choice" sort of video game, rather than Dragon Age: United Nations edition, so what are you going to do?   I just cringe a little inside when I help them, and end up helping them anyway

Modifié par lizzbee, 18 juillet 2010 - 01:15 .

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, Swiftrunner did stab himself in the foot there by refusing to at least give you more information even if he wasn't willing to trust you.



Suffering with dignity is overrated if doing that means that you will never be uncursed ever as that is what they'd BEEN doing before Zathrian's clan passed through the area again a few weeks prior and the werewolves started infecting people. They realized it was futile and keeping the moral high ground just isn't worth it in this case.

[balmung03]

It may not be the most distasteful decision I've ever made in DA (the game practically makes sure you face at least one every playthrough), but I always hated recruiting Wynne.  If it weren't for the fact that the only other viable healer options are a PC mage or a spirit healer Morrigan, I'd leave her at the party camp all game long.
Seriously, just give me an item that can revive, but requires me to stoop to use it like I'm disarming a trap.  It sucks that the only revive option is having a spirit healer, especially considering the long cooldown of the spell.

[Bahlgan]

Elhanan wrote...

Kolgrim needs more fiber in his diet; too much red meat and whine....

That's WINE, Elhanan good sir. But if you mean it as that they WHINE too much, I can see it like that 

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I just disagree with your claim that they do it all for the lulz and for the implication that killing everyone who disagrees with you is a unique aspect of Kolgrim's grandfather's religious cult even in the game.

Some people who are along for the ride really don't care about their duties. They just appreciate slaying and plundering. Not able to give a specific example, but there are just some people like that who need to seriously adjust their lives.

Kolgrim's ancestor really did a lot of silencing ahem killing to those who refused to abandon the duties of Andraste and take up his new ways. Again, reference to the Guardian.

Cult is a subjective term based on perspective. A main line Chantry thinker like Wynne and Alistair would perceive them as a cult, as would Leliana. Zevran would also think of them as a cult.

Well... I always did say I was alot like Alistair.. I suppose it is fair to call me a religious, caring, yes seriously overdramatic, prejudicing person.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 18 juillet 2010 - 06:36 .

[maxernst]

Bahlgan wrote...

maxernst wrote...

"Cult" and "perverted" are loaded terms. What standard do you use to make such value judgements? Even if we assume that the guardian's account of what the original followers of Andraste believed, and any deviation from the original faith is a perversion, a case could be made that the Chantry is also a perversion. Leliana's beliefs about the Maker are unorthodox--is she also perverting the faith?

Make no mistake, it IS a cult. Their religion became perverted when it involved the sacrifices and spilling of blood of many people, not to mention the townsfolk and the Knights of Redcliffe, INNOCENT LIVES. Honestly, guys, if nothing else, common sense and the understanding of the value of a human life in general will do wonders to your enlightenment. Now, I understand there is a multi perception to common sense, so forgive me if I seem like a dick with my opinion, but if you disagree with me on this, you're essentially reinforcing the belief that it is perfectly natural to slay innocent lives for religious purposes.

As far as the Leliana question goes; Yes that is true, Leliana's beliefs can most certainly be viewed as a perversion, and the Chantry may have perverted their beliefs in how to treat mages. Perhaps before current time in Ferelden, mages might have been actually treated with respect universally, minus the maleficarum. Leliana, however, does not call upon the damnation of others and spilling forth of innocent blood to have her way of life circulated. THAT makes all the difference ever needed. So by definition of perversion in my context, usually applies to changes in principles for the worst of humankind.. Or elfkind... Or dwarfkind...

An exalted march is a human sacrifice on a far greater scale than anything Haven has ever contemplated.  Hell, I'm guessing the Harrowing would kill far more innocent people than Haven year in, year out.  And as I said before, once you've discovered their chantry, it's self-defense.  If the Chantry hears about Haven, they have good reason to think the Chantry will exterminate them.  It will be just like Beziers, in the real world.

[Bahlgan]

maxernst wrote...

An exalted march is a human sacrifice on a far greater scale than anything Haven has ever contemplated.  Hell, I'm guessing the Harrowing would kill far more innocent people than Haven year in, year out.  And as I said before, once you've discovered their chantry, it's self-defense.  If the Chantry hears about Haven, they have good reason to think the Chantry will exterminate them.  It will be just like Beziers, in the real world.

I do not know what exactly happened between the Dalish and the Chantry for them to start an Exalted March back after Andraste's fall, but I can tell you (based on Brother Burkel's death in a possible epilogue) that their typical version of an Exalted March is by means of vengeance of those who were simply playing as messengers of the Maker. I entirely support them if they choose to raid Orzammar for slaying an innocent life. Burkel didn't deserve to die; he led a NON-violent protest. Think about MLK Jr, all his protests were non violent, and he was murdered by someone; I do now know who. Think of how mad supporters of MLK were when they found out or witnessed the murder of a saint. Only the truest of ***holes would partake in the murdering of pure hearts. No more need be said about the Exalted March.

Harrowing is not much better than what the cultists in Haven do, I will give you that much; many, but not all, of the Templars treat mages in there like fishing bait, if they should even be called with so much respect. However, unlike the cultists, the risk in the Harrowing can be rewarding to those who pass the test. This does not mean that I believe it to be worth all those who DID fail the Harrowing; anonymous sources in the story claim that there might be people working on better ways to train the mages and test them than the Harrowing. The situation on my opinion has not changed, however. There is nothing great that comes out of what those bastards, pardon my lang, from Haven perform on travelers.

As far as the Haven Chantry goes: Self defense I will agree with that, but self defense from what exactly? From being discovered? There is a LOT worse that can happen to them if they choose to keep their hostility up against society. You know how many lives could have been spared if they were not so hostile towards me? Because of their ongoing barbarism, there is not a soul left to clean up the strewn entrails I decorated across their homes. A taste of their own medicine will teach them one day of how wrong it is to indulge in self pleasing rituals.