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[RavenousBear]

Bahlgan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

What does religion have to do with her RPing story about her PTSD CE who mellows out around the Dalish?

The morals to her story and how she learns not to become too pre judging fit quite well. Granted, I too would have slit her char's throat with my Starfang the first chance I got for being called anything racist, but quite honestly, she does a good job.

Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see how religion is tied in with her story.

Bahlgan wrote...

Granted, I too would have slit her char's throat with my Starfang the
first chance I got for being called anything racist, but quite honestly,
she does a good job.

You call the dwarves backwards, yet your character will kill someone over a remark?

Modifié par Caak7i, 20 juillet 2010 - 04:37 .

[Captain Jazz]

Leske.
There was no decision to make, it was kill him or die... but he had been my friend... more than my friend. I don't know what I expected from him when I left to join the wardens, but the last time I saw him, we'd just been to hell and back together, the next time he was impaled on my sword... that hurt.
Then facing him in the gauntlet... yes, I have failed you my friend.

[Time4Tiddy]

maxernst wrote...

That seemed to be true on my second playthrough, but the first time I don't think I had done either of those things and I walked out of the chantry to check if the coast was clear before telling Genitivi I was ready to go to the ruins. I was attacked by a bunch of villagers outside the Chantry...maybe it's based on whether or not you go straight to the ruins or not.

As to the town, it seems to me (at least based on their behavior toward me) that they don't attack people unless they're nosy. Based on how Duncan handles Ser Jory, somebody walking in on a Grey Warden joining ceremony wouldn't be treated any more kindly.

Edited to add:  and if you don't kill the dragon for them, after you've wiped out all their warriors and mages, I think it's safe to say they have no hope of doing it themselves, even if they want to.  Attacking it would just hasten their extinction.

Come to think of it, I didn't really like having to kill Jarvia's entire group, either...

You can check on the altar and not aggro.  It's going in the back of the merchant shop that turns the villagers hostile.  I looked at the altar, then went straight up to the chapel and was attacked by the priest and his lackeys.  When I went back to the village, the people were all alive and nonhostile, so I have to assume it's finding the knight corpse behind the shop that does it - the shopkeeper probably presses his silent alarm under the desk and all the villagers turn evil!

[Estelindis]

Alistair or Anora for the throne. (Alistair seems like he really doesn't want to be king... But I really think that's just low self esteem talking! But then there's the "my city elf can't marry him if he's king" factor.)



Letting Loghain live or not. (Riordan is the ranking Warden. If he wants Loghain to take the Joining, why should I argue? Yet allowing this means alienating Alistair.)



Dark Ritual or not. (Is it win-win, with the Blight defeated and a Warden saved...? Or lose-LOSE, with coercing a man to sleep with a woman he doesn't love in order to simply postpone a problem and possibly cost hundreds of lives in another future Blight? Possibly win-lose, depending on which factors we're right or mistaken about?)



Deciding whether or not to let Vaughan live in the City Elf origin *would* have been a difficult choice (what with the whole "the alienage will suffer!" aspect) if the alternative wasn't turning my back on Shianni and leaving her there to be raped again. That, ah, made the choice kinda easy.

[Sarah1281]

Time4Tiddy wrote...

maxernst wrote...

That seemed to be true on my second playthrough, but the first time I don't think I had done either of those things and I walked out of the chantry to check if the coast was clear before telling Genitivi I was ready to go to the ruins. I was attacked by a bunch of villagers outside the Chantry...maybe it's based on whether or not you go straight to the ruins or not.

As to the town, it seems to me (at least based on their behavior toward me) that they don't attack people unless they're nosy. Based on how Duncan handles Ser Jory, somebody walking in on a Grey Warden joining ceremony wouldn't be treated any more kindly.

Edited to add:  and if you don't kill the dragon for them, after you've wiped out all their warriors and mages, I think it's safe to say they have no hope of doing it themselves, even if they want to.  Attacking it would just hasten their extinction.

Come to think of it, I didn't really like having to kill Jarvia's entire group, either...

You can check on the altar and not aggro.  It's going in the back of the merchant shop that turns the villagers hostile.  I looked at the altar, then went straight up to the chapel and was attacked by the priest and his lackeys.  When I went back to the village, the people were all alive and nonhostile, so I have to assume it's finding the knight corpse behind the shop that does it - the shopkeeper probably presses his silent alarm under the desk and all the villagers turn evil!

Really? I remember in my first playthrough everyone attacking me because of that. Then again, I think I also vaguely remember the guard lecturing me about privacy so maybe I asked him what was up with the blood? 

[CalJones]

Hmm no, I've had the entire village go hostile after checking the altar and nothing else.

[DWSmiley]

It's unpredictable, at least for me. A couple of times the villagers jumped me as soon as I left the house with the altar in it but the last couple of times they haven't cared. Maybe a mod I applied changed it somehow.

[Sarah1281]

I know I've been able to go in the house and not get attacked as long as I didn't click on the altar and get everyone to say it's human blood and enough to kill someone.

[RavenousBear]

I always click on the altar and the cultists and never get attacked. If I do go behind the shop however, the mob always appears. I do not think it is a platform issue since I was on Xbox360 and now on the PC.

[frostajulie]

The most distasteful issue for me was sparing Behlan. As his sister and a dwarf I would know thats how things are done but as a human pushing keystrokes I just think it is messed up a brother would do that to his sister. Especially since I played that we were close.

Then there is everytime I break up with Alistair and Leiliana They are such good characters and I didn't have to romance either of them but I love them so much and the romances are very sweet and well done, but Zev is my favorite so my PC always ends up with him. Doesn't stop me from feeling like a dick about it but The story is more involving for me because I spave out the three relationships between sidequests, mainquests and DLC so there is always more story to go with my game.

edit: Except for Will cousland who broke up with Zev and never romanced Leiliani because Zev was just a booty call and Will needed to be queen.

Modifié par frostajulie, 20 juillet 2010 - 03:25 .

[Bahlgan]

Caak7i wrote...

Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see how religion is tied in with her story.

So you need religion to have morals or learn tolerance?

Where in the hell are you two getting religion from??? Her moral of the story was NOT based on religion at all! It was merely based on racism and oppression!!

Anyway, Sarah, to answer your question: Religion is a huge help to learn morals, hell the bible in real life does wonders as far as teaching the general morals of a story. Why? You got a better idea? Let's see it!

You call the dwarves backwards, yet your character will kill someone over a remark?

According to my good drinking buddy Oghren, half the dwarves would lose themselves to their ale to the point of "killing every duster that looks at 'em sideways" and I don't blame them. Some things you just don't try to stare down. 

Besides, who are YOU to tell me I am not allowed to release a little hatred and anger on those who constantly all my char's life prejudge me and spit on me and would kill me because I am a "shem"? Racism can go two ways, so you know. (Forgot that elf's name at the Dalish campfire, but I just wanted to smack his little sarcastic way of treating Wardens like myself. Wardens who would sacrifice every drop of their blood for the sake of removing racial boundaries, let alone the Blight for the sake of freedom.)

Really? I remember in my first playthrough everyone attacking me because of that. Then again, I think I also vaguely remember the guard lecturing me about privacy so maybe I asked him what was up with the blood?

If you ask the guard about "strange things in Haven" such as the altar, that is like purposefully walking in front of a security camera and/or giving it the bird. You DON'T want to blow your cover by asking about the unusual altars and what not. As far as the back of Haven's shop, yes that will trigger hostility throughout the entire village square if you slay the merchant, because you will have found out at that point that a knight of Redcliffe was specifically killed by the villagers. Blasted cultists...

Modifié par Bahlgan, 20 juillet 2010 - 04:34 .

[Sarah1281]

Where am I getting religion from? You.

I commend you on how well you are able to piece together your story! Few are as religious as you are, even fewer still can learn to appreciate the irony in anything bad that can happen to characters in said story.

A better idea? How about secular, societal morals? Bible morality varies greatly depending on what sections you're reading and I know I wouldn't want to be judged by what the old testament (which has the secular morals of the societies around when they were written) says. Take the ten commandments. Do you REALLY need to read in a book you shouldn't kill people, lie, steal, cheat on your spouse, ect? I'm not saying that all of the morality in the bible is wrong or that if you somehow had no sense of morality until you read the new testament that you'd be barking up the wrong tree but you do not need religion to have morals and I highly resent the implication that you do.

Also, I agree that saying 'I should get to release hatred and anger on those who constantly all my char's life prejudge me and spit on me and would kill me because I am a "shem" ' makes your claim that the dwarves are backwards seem highly ironic if nothing else because killing people for saying not-nice things to you is EXTREMELY backwards.

Edit: How was I supposed to know not to ask about the bloody altar? I didn't even know I had a cover. I had just shown up and if I found a bloody altar in Denerim, Redcliffe, or Orzammar I probably also would have asked.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 20 juillet 2010 - 04:36 .

[Homebound]

When I chose to let Alistair take the killing blow.

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Where am I getting religion from? You.

I commend you on how well you are able to piece together your story! Few are as religious as you are, even fewer still can learn to appreciate the irony in anything bad that can happen to characters in said story.

Two words: Figuratively Speaking; I wasn't being literal about it. Being religious about role playing can also mean being passionate about it. I was even told I was "religous" before about DA:O, perhaps THE most "religious", but that is a side note.

I'm not saying that all of the morality in the bible is wrong or that if you somehow had no sense of morality until you read the new testament that you'd be barking up the wrong tree but you do not need religion to have morals and I highly resent the implication that you do.

Name me one original work of art that does not stem its teachings from any religious script, please..
In other words, I doubt that any work of art is a complete original, and therefore not taken from the Bible, Quran, what have you... etc..

Again, Morals and the specific religion are different, I agree. You don't have to follow a religion, but its morals teach well to follow the unbiased path, we seem to agree with that much at least. 

Also, I agree that saying 'I should get to release hatred and anger on those who constantly all my char's life prejudge me and spit on me and would kill me because I am a "shem" ' makes your claim that the dwarves are backwards seem highly ironic if nothing else because killing people for saying not-nice things to you is EXTREMELY backwards.

*sigh* Well dang.. I guess I am a tad backwards myself. I suppose you want to torch me like an abomination?

Seriously though? You must have never been judged in your life to not to want to do something with that hate. I would be glad to waste more of my precious personal lessons, but I am not in the mood at the moment to be judged again by people with perfect lives. There are "not-nice things", and then there is a LIFETIME of disrespect and complete mis-appreciation an individual is given to the point to where that single person, or elf, or dwarf, is driven mad. I challenge you to undergo a lifetime of hatred based on skin color and not show any ounce of anger.

Edit: How was I supposed to know not to ask about the bloody altar? I didn't even know I had a cover. I had just shown up and if I found a bloody altar in Denerim, Redcliffe, or Orzammar I probably also would have asked.

The guard didn't know who you were. That's a little stealth bonus for you. As far as the altar goes, I myself didn't know about it until my second playthrough.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The way this discussion is proceeding is... well weird. How did it come to morality / religion and all that again?

[Bahlgan]

I forget, at least without looking back into the thread further.We were debating the morality of Orzammar as well as other things. As far as religion goes, some people just took my words FAR FAR FAR too literally... When I mentioned religion, I meant passion. Thought that my figures of speech could be read, but I suppose there are some people who are too tense.

[DragonRacer13]

Bahlgan - In no way am I entering the current religious discussion, but I am curious if Aesop's Fables are old enough to be considered non-Bible-related moral stories. I know they were a collection of oral stories passed down over time that were eventually written down. 'Tis the only thing I could think of that teaches some moral concepts that doesn't bring up religion, so thought I would throw it out there for consideration.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The way this discussion is proceeding is... well weird. How did it come to morality / religion and all that again?

Yeah, it did seem to go wildly off-track, didn't it? I'm all for steering it back towards Loghain again, though! lol

[Bahlgan]

Bahlgan - In no way am I entering the current religious discussion

That's fine. I am not even trying to talk about anything religious; again, it was a figure of speech for passionate role-playing.

'Tis the only thing I could think of that teaches some moral concepts that doesn't bring up religion, so thought I would throw it out there for consideration.

Aaahh, but in order for that to pass my test, it cannot have gotten any of its ideas from any of the teachings of any religious sorts. My point in bringing that up was to try and prove that religious teachings are indeed the original source of morals. Now, if anyone actually knows something that predates the moral teachings from those sources, then I stand corrected.

Yeah, it did seem to go wildly off-track, didn't it? I'm all for steering it back towards Loghain again, though! lol

Let's talk about why Loghain is so damn cynical... THAT should be rather interesting. How many times was he dropped on his head? Did he get his candy taken away from him as a baby? These are all wonderful things to consider contributing to how he was when it came to the murder of Cailan.



If I had to add an extra distasteful moment (in addition to sacrificing Isolde in the blood magic ritual) I would like to add having to result in Alistair's exile by choosing Loghain as a recruit. It was with my evil character, but it still broke my heart. I considered all that he had lost; his only father figure AKA Duncan. It truly was a horrible thing to watch. So horrible that I chose to spare him rather than execute him. Ironic eh?



But the worst of them all.. *shudders* Ooh boy.. The WORST of them all was watching Isolde kill her own son, HER OWN SON!! Watching her sob... Watching the emotion from her accent just drop like a pulley snapped and broken loose.. She lost her soul on that night... So horrible that was... I decided to reload the play and just sacrifice her to save Connor. All this was also done with my evil character, but still; I am not evil as a person, or so I would like not to believe, and seeing Connor slain by her own mother just ripped me apart.

[Sarah1281]

Aaahh, but in order for that to pass my test, it cannot have gotten any of its ideas from any of the teachings of any religious sorts. My point in bringing that up was to try and prove that religious teachings are indeed the original source of morals. Now, if anyone actually knows something that predates the moral teachings from those sources, then I stand corrected.

When religions were first founded (and this happened in pretty much any society to have ever existed) the morals they had their religion espouse were the ones that their society already had. People very quickly wanted to explain what they didn't understand and so they made up Odin, they made up Zeus, they made up Isis. They did this concurrently with developing morals. It's impossible to say 'oh, one came first' because it's like asking about the chicken or the egg. That does not mean that religions invented morality as, again, people were the ones to develop the ideas of both organized religion and an agreed upon system of morality.

*sigh* Well dang.. I guess I am a tad backwards myself. I suppose you want to torch me like an abomination?



Seriously though? You must have never been judged in your life to not to want to do something with that hate. I would be glad to waste more of my precious personal lessons, but I am not in the mood at the moment to be judged again by people with perfect lives. There are "not-nice things", and then there is a LIFETIME of disrespect and complete mis-appreciation an individual is given to the point to where that single person, or elf, or dwarf, is driven mad. I challenge you to undergo a lifetime of hatred based on skin color and not show any ounce of anger.

If I said that wanting to kill people for what they say is backwards then wouldn't killing people for being perceived as backwards - and having a backwards view does not mean that, on the whole, someone is backwards - be even MORE backwards? And there's a difference between being pissed or even hating people who hate you and talking about killing them for racist dialogue. So what if an elf won't stop calling you a shem? They don't deserve to die for it which is what you said you would do that prompted my calling choosing to kill them anyway backwards. I'm not sure why you need to drag RL into this unless you go around killing people for racial slurs (and 'shem' seems to be more on par with '******' than anything really offensive), which I kind of doubt.

[CalJones]

Hmm, getting dropped on his head and having candy stolen? No...more like being forced to watch while Orlesian soldiers gang raped his mother and then cut her throat. Might explain a little about why he hates the Orlesians so much, huh?

As for Cailan's murder...I don't even see it as that. Cailan was killed by darkspawn, and by his own stupidity. The worst you can accuse Loghain of in that instance is negligence, but he did tell Cailan not to fight on the front lines with the wardens and Cailan told him to STFU and remember who was king.

Anyway, yes, the various Connor death scenarios are pretty disturbing. I don't like Isolde and I even felt sorry for her there.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bahlgan wrote...
Let's talk about why Loghain is so damn cynical... THAT should be rather interesting. How many times was he dropped on his head? Did he get his candy taken away from him as a baby? These are all wonderful things to consider contributing to how he was when it came to the murder of Cailan.

You OBVIOUSLY have not read the Stolen Throne.
Do that, then we can have this discussion.

[VioletTheirin]

The worst for me was as my Dalish Willow having to either kill Tamlen or step back and watch your companions do it. I know he was beyond saving but it made my heart sad

[Sabariel]

CalJones wrote...

Hmm, getting dropped on his head and having candy stolen? No...more like being forced to watch while Orlesian soldiers gang raped his mother and then cut her throat. Might explain a little about why he hates the Orlesians so much, huh?
As for Cailan's murder...I don't even see it as that. Cailan was killed by darkspawn, and by his own stupidity. The worst you can accuse Loghain of in that instance is negligence, but he did tell Cailan not to fight on the front lines with the wardens and Cailan told him to STFU and remember who was king.
Anyway, yes, the various Connor death scenarios are pretty disturbing. I don't like Isolde and I even felt sorry for her there.

And yet the only stupid thing we see Cailan do is put his trust in Loghain...

[Sarah1281]

Sabariel wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Hmm, getting dropped on his head and having candy stolen? No...more like being forced to watch while Orlesian soldiers gang raped his mother and then cut her throat. Might explain a little about why he hates the Orlesians so much, huh?
As for Cailan's murder...I don't even see it as that. Cailan was killed by darkspawn, and by his own stupidity. The worst you can accuse Loghain of in that instance is negligence, but he did tell Cailan not to fight on the front lines with the wardens and Cailan told him to STFU and remember who was king.
Anyway, yes, the various Connor death scenarios are pretty disturbing. I don't like Isolde and I even felt sorry for her there.

And yet the only stupid thing we see Cailan do is put his trust in Loghain...

You don't call refusing to let Eamon's troops come (purportedly because he doesn't want to share the glory but likely because he didn't want to deal with Eamon telling him to ditch Anora when he was already fighting with Loghain about her) and insisting on riding into battle with the GW's despite having no heir and that being incredibly dangerous stupid? 

[Giggles_Manically]

After reading the stolen Throne this is what most people do about Loghain:

http://aimo.devianta...llery/#/d2mzjea

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 20 juillet 2010 - 10:45 .