24 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonPogo]

Ok to start I have to say I do not mind VO work in games and feel it can bring allot to a game.  The problem I have with it is how hard it makes doing a sequel or downloadable content for a game.  THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE.  But say for argument in DA2 they had wanted to center the whole story around Morrigan and her God baby.  However do to scheduling or financial issues they could not get Claudia Black back to do the voice of Morrigan.  Well then what do they do?  Another example is something like in Awakening.  They brought back Oghren.  Allot of fans wanted the option to choose what companion you bring back.  However that presents the problem of bringing back every single voice actor for a part allot of the fans would not even play.

So yes it is a double edged sword.  I like voice acting in games.  I think the voice acting In DA:O was some of the best I have ever heard.  But when it comes to an RPG and the millions of little side stories and directions you can take it is limits what might be done.


So to sum up I like the idea of VO work for DA2 but miss the days of walls of text. I think technology has brought us into the age of downloadable content. However if it had been around back in the 90’s you could have done more with it. lol

[Gambient]

Oh look, someone else complaining about the Dialogue Wheel! Didn't even bother to read this. Several people have already whined.

[JasonPogo]

Gambient wrote...

Oh look, someone else complaining about the Dialogue Wheel! Didn't even bother to read this. Several people have already whined.

If you read it you will see it has nothing do do with the wheel so you fail.

[alickar]

this thread deserves this pic

Mod edit: Trolling people is a no-no. If the best response you can make is replying with a pic, consider that maybe you don't have much to add and move on.

Modifié par Seagloom, 12 juillet 2010 - 08:14 .

[Gambient]

Mod edit: That goes for quoting such replies as well.

Modifié par Seagloom, 12 juillet 2010 - 08:14 .

[zahra]

Did you even read the OPs post?



Even if you disagree with his opinion, addressing it in a mature and reasonable manner is not completely beyond your capabilities, no? There is too much dismissing of opinions in a rude manner here, on both sides.

[Aggie Punbot]

Okay, the whining about the dialogue wheel irritates me too but this particular concern is valid (and, as stated earlier, actually has nothing to do with the wheel itself). The Overlord DLC for ME2 was woefully lacking in squad dialogue and really gave an otherwise spectacular DLC a rather lackluster feel to it.

This concern I actually agree with.

zahra wrote...

Did you even read the OPs post?

Gambient admitted that s/he had not. Pity, because they should have, given that it's fairly short.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 12 juillet 2010 - 08:17 .

[Goldrock]

im not big fan of voice over in mosty games but i love it in biowares games its the cinematic epic feeling i get when i play them that keep me hooked.

[Aggie Punbot]

elektrego wrote...

I really don't understand some people. The OP doesn't feature any whining, it doesn't even use the words dialogue wheel. Actually it adds a new and valid point to the VO discussion. The only whining has been done in the replies so far!

Everything is about the dialogue wheel!

Dragon Age 2's release date? Dialogue wheel.
Mass Effect 3's release date? Dialogue wheel.
Can't find your pants? Dialogue wheel.
Comic panels not working out right? Dialogue wheel.
Throwing a party? ...cheese wheel. But it has something to do with the dialogue wheel, I can tell you that much.

[Koremark]

it could be we are at the beginning of a new Era of Video gaming...

this one remebers playing Pong when it first came out ....



Bioware is working hard and they may be the first to to be able to do it ..... To make a Video Game ...

That puts you inside of a Movie that you Pick-A-Path to get to the end...



Even todays Movie require more and more Voice Actors...

So let just face the days of wall of text is fading and VA and VO is and will be Our future...



Lets just hope Bioware can Lead the way and pull out a huge win for DA 2.



Way to early to be judgemental about DA 2.

[Gambient]

 Okay, okay, I read OP's post. 

And yeah, I agree. But Claudia Black not returning as Morrigan seems highly unlikely. 

[whinnie]

its nice to see someone trying to put there opinion forward in a manner other than "dialogue wheels SUCK " and i agree this is one thing that could pose as a disadvantage to the VO dialogue..but we shall have to wait and see what bioware do about it.

[Ecael]

JasonPogo wrote...

So yes it is a double edged sword.  I like voice acting in games.  I think the voice acting In DA:O was some of the best I have ever heard.  But when it comes to an RPG and the millions of little side stories and directions you can take it is limits what might be done.

That's essentially what I've been trying to say. Because graphics and cinematics are expected to improve with every game, a lot of game developers simply stick with those and don't bother with dialogue, gameplay balance or storytelling.

BioWare's not very good with pure gameplay balance (or computer AI), but the storytelling, characterization and dialogue are all excellent.

However, because of how expensive cinematics and voices are, the writers have to lay out everything beforehand instead of write as the game goes along so they don't waste hours and hours of effort. Text-only RPGs would be nice, but most people don't like to read codexes and e-mails anymore. Without animation and without sound, those things lose their immersion very fast.

"Hardcore" World of Warcraft players simply skip through the massive amounts of quest text in that RPG and continue leveling or dungeon-running. Hopefully The Old Republic will change that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

JasonPogo wrote...

Ok to start I have to say I do not mind VO work in games and feel it can bring allot to a game.  The problem I have with it is how hard it makes doing a sequel or downloadable content for a game.  THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE.  But say for argument in DA2 they had wanted to center the whole story around Morrigan and her God baby.  However do to scheduling or financial issues they could not get Claudia Black back to do the voice of Morrigan.  Well then what do they do?  Another example is something like in Awakening.  They brought back Oghren.  Allot of fans wanted the option to choose what companion you bring back.  However that presents the problem of bringing back every single voice actor for a part allot of the fans would not even play.

So yes it is a double edged sword.  I like voice acting in games.  I think the voice acting In DA:O was some of the best I have ever heard.  But when it comes to an RPG and the millions of little side stories and directions you can take it is limits what might be done.

Good post, Jason.  Yet another opportunity cost associated with voice-over that people ignore when praising it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ecael wrote...

However, because of how expensive cinematics and voices are, the writers have to lay out everything beforehand instead of write as the game goes along so they don't waste hours and hours of effort. Text-only RPGs would be nice, but most people don't like to read codexes and e-mails anymore. Without animation and without sound, those things lose their immersion very fast.

Yes, but abandoing those expensive cinematics and detailed visuals would dramatically lower development costs.  Developers could then afford to make games that target smaller markets and still generate a good return on their investment.

[elearon1]

Gambient wrote...

 Okay, okay, I read OP's post. 

And yeah, I agree. But Claudia Black not returning as Morrigan seems highly unlikely. 

1) It was an *example*, picking apart an example is useless.

2) Claudia Black is an actress with possible other interests and job offers - unless she signed a contract stating she *will* return there is no reason to assume she must. 

3) My only issue with voice acting is that it sets an expectation for mod adventures to be voice acted, which severely limits the number of people willing to make them and increases the time needed to do so.

That said, I love the voice acting in the game and wouldn't think to ask that it be removed.  What I would like is for modders to realize that, while voice acting is nice and all, it isn't necessary if they have a good story they want to tell but no actors available to help with it.

[JasonPogo]

Haha thanks for the support people. The thing that urks me is just when you sit back and think of everything the could do if there was no voice acting. Not only in DA but in every game. DLC would have been AMAZING back in the day. Make a cheap short game with the tools you already have. And do whatever story you want. Hell they could make a killer game around being a guard from Redcliffe and you have to fight the waves of creatures Conner sends after you. Or any other list of things. Without voice acting they could make a bunch of these kinds of cool little DLC.



But again oh well such is the price we pay for great games with good VO work.

[Sylvius the Mad]

JasonPogo wrote...

Hell they could make a killer game around being a guard from Redcliffe and you have to fight the waves of creatures Conner sends after you. Or any other list of things. Without voice acting they could make a bunch of these kinds of cool little DLC.

And I would pay for that content.  Maybe not everyone would, but if the development costs were much lower it wouldn't matter.  Imagine if BioWare could pump out new DLC of that sort every 3 weeks.

And if there were that many of them, balancing them wouldn't even matter as much.  Some of them might be punishingly difficult.  Some might be laughably easy.  But that variety would sort of be the point.  Whatever your tastes, you could have what you wanted.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 12 juillet 2010 - 09:27 .

[mornegroth]

I kind of see the OP's point, but RPG gaming without full-voiced characters isn't just that thrilling and immersive. I can live with a "silent" main character, but nowadays I believe that this isn't the way to go.

The problem is that with a voiced main character you don't get as much options and freedom as you get the other way around. But in my opinion it's just a way of progression, I believe that in the future the voice will "bend" towards what the player really wants for his character and someone must take the first step.

For now, Bioware has done an amazing job with Mass Effect. Dragon Age 2 can only be a step foward in this camp, and we'll need to wait for more info.

Modifié par mornegroth, 12 juillet 2010 - 11:47 .

[Giltspur]

JasonPogo wrote...

Ok to start I have to say I do not mind VO work in games and feel it can bring allot to a game.  The problem I have with it is how hard it makes doing a sequel or downloadable content for a game.  THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE.  But say for argument in DA2 they had wanted to center the whole story around Morrigan and her God baby.  However do to scheduling or financial issues they could not get Claudia Black back to do the voice of Morrigan.  Well then what do they do?  Another example is something like in Awakening.  They brought back Oghren.  Allot of fans wanted the option to choose what companion you bring back.  However that presents the problem of bringing back every single voice actor for a part allot of the fans would not even play.

So yes it is a double edged sword.  I like voice acting in games.  I think the voice acting In DA:O was some of the best I have ever heard.  But when it comes to an RPG and the millions of little side stories and directions you can take it is limits what might be done.


So to sum up I like the idea of VO work for DA2 but miss the days of walls of text. I think technology has brought us into the age of downloadable content. However if it had been around back in the 90’s you could have done more with it. lol

Your example involves a companion (Morrigan), and she was already fully voiced in DAO.  So making DLC or a sequel with her for DAO or sequels would already have had the difficulty of getting her to do more vo work.  DA2 doesn't change that as DA2 only adds vo for the main character.

Since the PC (Hawke) will by default be in most all DLC (a DLC like Leiliana's song being the counterexample) they'd probably work out the contract to involve not just the one game but also DLC releases and the like.  

Granted your post isn't really about the change to VO for the main character in DA2 so much as it is about the heavy usage of VO in games in general.  Yeah it does limit the writer's freedom.  But the move from text-based RPG's to ones with graphics also does.  Think of how many more paths can be allowed for a character in a text RPG versus an RPG that has high production costs.

But yeaht that VO adds a new complexity to what we're used to.  One fear has always been that VO reduces the amount of written dialogue that will be available as an option for the main character.  That had been used as a defense for not using VO in the original Dragon Age.  Though that was then and not necessarily now.

After all, BIoware  has already said they still have six dialogue slots available on the wheel just as they do without the wheel (though they haven't confirmed if they'll use all six slots as frequently post-wheel as they did pre-wheel).  Regardless, I doubt there's anything to worry about as they've already said they're not using a paragon-renegade system.

Modifié par Giltspur, 13 juillet 2010 - 12:04 .

[sami jo]

There were a number of discussions in the Awakenings thread before it was released about how much VA ends up hemming in the story that devs are able to tell. VA is expensive. Your voice actor may not be available to record more for a DLC, limiting what content can be added. I am not a fan of the wheel. I found it irritating in ME and was only mildly less annoyed with its implementation in Leliana's Song, but that is another issue entirely. Using VA severely limits the scope of the story that can be told in a game. As much as I love the VA in DA:O (and I do, it's spectacular), the game might well have been better overall if those resources had been devoted to programmers to debug and include more content that was dropped. It is probably my favorite game of all time, but it is buggy as all hell and there are so many threads in it that were clearly just dropped for lack of time/resources (Jowan anyone?). The devs made the formula very clear on the Awakenings forum-- more VA=less content. I prefer an unvoiced main character for other reasons as well, but I would rather limit the VA and have more story, and I don't really care if that qualifies me as "old school" or not.

[Ecael]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ecael wrote...

However, because of how expensive cinematics and voices are, the writers have to lay out everything beforehand instead of write as the game goes along so they don't waste hours and hours of effort. Text-only RPGs would be nice, but most people don't like to read codexes and e-mails anymore. Without animation and without sound, those things lose their immersion very fast.

Yes, but abandoing those expensive cinematics and detailed visuals would dramatically lower development costs.  Developers could then afford to make games that target smaller markets and still generate a good return on their investment.

I would definitely be in support of such a project by BioWare, but I just don't see it happening.

An RTS in the style of Starcraft II or a top-down action RPG like Diablo II (or III) would save a lot of money on cinematics and detailed visuals, however. That's why I speculate that the next Mass Effect game after the 3rd could be (or should be) an RTS - yes, that's not very RPGish, but Starcraft II is starting to show RPG elements.

You can write a hundred thousand lines of dialogue for an RTS without worrying too much about cinematic or graphics glitches.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ecael wrote...

An RTS in the style of Starcraft II or a top-down action RPG like Diablo II (or III) would save a lot of money on cinematics and detailed visuals, however.

It's interesting that you chose two genres of games which I dislike.  Neither RTS nor Action games are my cup of tea.

[Ecael]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ecael wrote...

An RTS in the style of Starcraft II or a top-down action RPG like Diablo II (or III) would save a lot of money on cinematics and detailed visuals, however.

It's interesting that you chose two genres of games which I dislike.  Neither RTS nor Action games are my cup of tea.

They're both very limited in cinematics, though, so writing a story or campaign for them is much easier than writing for a typical BioWare game. We never see the characters from a third-person or first-person perspective.