416 réponses à ce sujet

[Narreneth]

jesuno wrote...

All I know is it is time to rally the TRUE fans of Dragon Age. We all know that Bioware is getting closer and closer to going the way of Old Yeller, and it is time we took a stand. Revolt against the corporation, and return Dragon Age to the masses so that we a real sequel, not some action oriented, cartoony, spoon feed nightmare. Join us, the call to arms has been sounded.

You've got to be kidding me. 

The TRUE fans of Dragon Age HURR

[SchaerMann30]

Let me see if I understand this latest concept: Someone thinks, despite proof over the course of 15 years to the contrary, that BioWare somehow only spent a year-and-a-half to two years building this? Am I going mad?

Okay, here's the thing, people: any game developer going for a series spends far more than that long doing up a game. Scripting of plot alone can take upward of a year. Once basic plot is scripted, any voice scripts are written; call it anywhere between 8 and 13 months average. The list goes on. Yes, DA:O may have been ready for PC presentation 2 years ago, but do you really think that all the other people who work on things for a game, from coders to script-writers to artists, both concept and CGI, and onward, simply sat around drinking Pepsi and chewing the fat for the rest of that time?

As someone said, BioWare is a business. In the regard of making money to pay their employees, make more of their products, etc., I'll agree with that. What I simply will refuse to agree with for any reason, and will argue forever, is that with that knowledge and expectation of BioWare being a business, that the other half of the coin is NOT equally valid. Being employed and not making proper use of company time, or simple idle time, is a money void. It causes unemployment in droves. This has not happened here. Most of the team (as far as we know, almost all of it, save the few reassigned to other projects) is still not only employed, but together on this project, from every piece of evidence we've been given.

If they had been idle and not working on a project once all of the base requisites for DA:O were filled, from that point until just a couple years back, when they let the cat out of the bag, it is certain they would have been out of a job. It has not happened. They must have been doing something for all that time. What might it have been, do you think? Maybe, just maybe, writing up and coding both DA:O Awakening and DA2?

Please think; a business model is made of more things than making money. However, it is a big concern for every business. Excess baggage and dead weight are pruned quite efficiently every time. Yet the team from DA:O is still here, still employed by BioWare, and still answering comments and concerns here in the midst of other duties.

Modifié par SchaerMann30, 14 juillet 2010 - 01:25 .

[Marionetten]

LPPrince wrote...

So you can't use the "total sales figures" argument as a retort.

Considering you used blatant misinformation as an argument I don't think you're in any position to dictate what he can or cannot use in order to debunk a false statement.

The fact is that you were wrong. Now "deal with it" as you apologists are so fond of saying.

Modifié par Marionetten, 13 juillet 2010 - 08:56 .

[Querne]

It was RPG of the year and IGN´s game of the year. Witch kind of ratings would exactly matter for you as success?

[David Gaider]

Querne wrote...
I think you found the problem, the hardcore fanbase starts to feel  like a husband coming home and finding his love cheating him with a casual affair..

Apparently his love grew tired of his constant jealousy and possessiveness and how he freaked out every time she so much as looked at another man? Plus the casual affair had more money and was around more often... and he didn't nitpick her to death and call her fat.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[LPPrince]

David Gaider wrote...

Querne wrote...
I think you found the problem, the hardcore fanbase starts to feel  like a husband coming home and finding his love cheating him with a casual affair..

Apparently his love grew tired of his constant jealousy and possessiveness and how he freaked out every time she so much as looked at another man? Plus the casual affair had more money and was around more often... and he didn't nitpick her to death and call her fat.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

That was light hearted, but damn that was harsh at the same time. Made me smile.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Querne wrote...

It was RPG of the year and IGN´s game of the year. Witch kind of ratings would exactly matter for you as success?

Demon's Souls territory

DA may have won some RPG of the year accollades, but Demon's Souls won both RPG game of the year and overall game of the year accolades

[jesuno]

Narreneth wrote...

jesuno wrote...

All I know is it is time to rally the TRUE fans of Dragon Age. We all know that Bioware is getting closer and closer to going the way of Old Yeller, and it is time we took a stand. Revolt against the corporation, and return Dragon Age to the masses so that we a real sequel, not some action oriented, cartoony, spoon feed nightmare. Join us, the call to arms has been sounded.

You've got to be kidding me. 

The TRUE fans of Dragon Age HURR

I didn't think I needed to put a sarcasm tag on it, but I can for your benifit.

[LPPrince]

Marionetten wrote...

Considering you used blatant misinformation

Such as what?

[Kalcalan]

A game for casual players is by definition a game like Fable 2 (which has the enternaining value of a blockbuster), the fact that it wasn't released on the PC tends to prove that point (I'm not implying console players are all casual gamers by the way).



Now DAO works for both casual players and old timers/serious RPers. It has the ease of use that a casual gamer is looking for and the replayability value a non casual gamer wants.



As long as DA2 maintains that balance there is no need to worry too much. I really don't think DA2 is going to be shallow like say Fable 2.

[Onyx Jaguar]

A Casual Game = Tetris



Fable =/= casual



Games that play in a 3D plane unless REALLY REALLY SIMPLE like House of the Dead are not casual because the Casual Audience does not respond well to complex controls like that. Which is why we are seeing a 2D resurgance

[haberman13]

Khavos wrote...

CLime wrote...

Khavos wrote...

I think a lot of the "panning" comes from the fact that this feels eerily familiar to Mass Effect fans.  You heard it here first: I'm guaranteeing we're going to find out about the "RPG streamlining" they have planned a few months before release.  I give the inventory a 50/50 shot at staying in.  

Yeah, no.  The closest thing is the devs daying DA2 will have more "dynamic" combat- and then saying it will be largely the same on the PC version, but better adapted to consoles on the other versions.  The inventory isn't going anywhere.

Bookmark this thread and come back to it after release.   Like I said, this all feels rather familiar.  Nobody knew at the time that ME2's "streamlined" mechanics basically meant they'd gutted all the RPG out of it. 

I'm sure "dynamic" combat couldn't possibly be a euphemism like that, though. 

Solution: develop for PC, strip away all thought inducing content and tactical combat, *bam* console version.

[Marionetten]

LPPrince wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

Considering you used blatant misinformation

Such as what?

Such as...

LPPrince wrote...

Dragon Age:Origins was their blast to the past, and it was highly successful in its own right, but not as successful as their hybrid.

It's already been established that Dragon Age: Origins was the more successful title.

Modifié par Marionetten, 13 juillet 2010 - 09:01 .

[LPPrince]

Kalcalan wrote...

A game for casual players is by definition a game like Fable 2 (which has the enternaining value of a blockbuster), the fact that it wasn't released on the PC tends to prove that point (I'm not implying console players are all casual gamers by the way).

Now DAO works for both casual players and old timers/serious RPers. It has the ease of use that a casual gamer is looking for and the replayability value a non casual gamer wants.

As long as DA2 maintains that balance there is no need to worry too much. I really don't think DA2 is going to be shallow like say Fable 2.

Peter Molyneaux wants to move the Fable franchise out of its RPG image, apparently.

Now he's going for Action Adventure. He apparently wants to sell something like 5 million copies of Fable 3.

One of those will be mine, but I doubt he'll make it. We'll see.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

MFCell wrote...

If you, like many of us, are very unsatisfied with the direction Dragon Age 2 is taking, and did not ever care much for Mass Effect 1 and 2, and do not want to see DA2 look like SW:TOR, I beg you, please continue to come and make posts on these forums letting Bioware see how unhappy you are with their decision.

Bioware, I do not feel like you took your time to develop a proper sequel to Dragon Age. DA:O took 5 years to develop, how is it viable to make a proper sequel in 18 months? You guys should barely have the groundwork laid out for DA2, yet it is gonna release in March 2011? The words "rushed for the money" come to mind. Or maybe the EA Execs yelled at you when you said you wanted 3 to 5 years for a proper sequel?

Bioware, Bioware. Listen for a moment to a true fan, someone who has played DA for nearly a thousand hours, is near 100%, has beaten the game on nightmare, seen every main ending and DLC, and completed nearly every sidequest. Having Hawke as the main charachter may be the root of an AMAZING story, but to your fanbase, it just looks like a copout. To your fanbase, it looks like you decided the human warrior origin was the most popular, so you you just made Dragon Age 2 feature a human warrior. That's really what it seems like to me, that Hawke is the easiest "one size fits all" hero you could come up with.

I think, after all the researching I've done, my playtime in Mass Effect 1 and 2, and my playtime in Dragon Age(by far the most) leads me to beleive that Bioware is for once, making a mistake. Dragon Age stood out from the crowd because of 2 things. 1) It was IMMENSELY polished. Every line of dialogue and each scene played out exactly as the should have. The combat on PC was unmatched in any game to date. 2) It relied on tried and true game mechanics and moved them forward into the current generation of hardware.


Now as far as I can tell, you have removed both aspects of the game. You are not ( I repeat, there is NO WAY possible) for you to polish DA2 like you did with DA:O. So, the "amazingness" factor will be lower, as conversations don't hold the promise of multiple hidden dialogue options and areas have little depth besides questing through them. Hawke will spend 10 years in this game? How do you expect to polish 10 years of in game time in 18 months? By skipping VAST portions of it, therfore making Hawke less heroic, and making the game flow in a wierd way (think "and then, 2 years later")...

Dragon Age also relies on tried and true game mechanics. The RPG combat is nearly identical to KOTOR and Baldur's Gate. If any tweaks are made to this system, the result could be literally catastrophic for DA2. Having the game play like ME2 with a sword is going to absolutely destroy the team based combat experience that DA:O flaunts so heavily. With so many other aspects of the game going completely ME on us, I wonder what the console versions will turn out like. I can imagine people running around taking cover from fireballs and then running in and spamming the attack button. Like some freakish GoW/ME wanna be.

Really Bioware, this is a sink or swim kind of thing for you guys. If you screw this up trying to make more money off of it, then your fanbase can only assume the same for your next titles. How do you plan on stealing WoW's playerbase if you've already set your fans on fire with this simple announcement? You guys don;t seem to understand the idea behind consistency.

I have on question for you guys, and it is a really important one.

Why Bioware, WHY, do you think Starcraft 2 is a nearly EXACT replica of Starcraft 1? Why, also, does Starcraft 2 not feature the VASTLY popular "Heroes" aspect from Warcraft 3? Because Bioware, just like DA and ME, while Warcraft and Starcraft are VERY SIMILAR, they are also very different. It is those differences which define the two games. Not the similarities. By establishing an IP vastly different from the ME one, you created something very similar to the Starcraft/Warcraft duality. You must NOT close the gap betwen the two franchises, instead, you must ESTABLISH the gap between the two. You guys, as the developers, have the reigns on this project, and it seems to many people like you are making decisions that do not suit you in the long term, nor do they characterise the development style we are used to from Bioware.

Anyways, it's not my job to make sure you guys are doing you job right. If you guys screw this up royally, then by all means, that was your decision to do so. It can be you guys decision to run Bioware's sparkling reputation right into the ground, make sure that none of WoW's playerbase leaves for TOR, make sure DA2 in no way follows DA:O, make sure ME3 just ends in another reaper battle, the list goes on and on. The ball is always in you guys court, until release day. I really think that the decisions you guys have made recently, since DA:O, do not reflect the Bioware the made KOTOR so great, so many years ago.

While I'm somewhat behind your initial paragraph I have to address a something.


Development time is NOT a valid indicator of quality.  Considering that they're likely using the same base mechanics and engine (atleast it looks that way) to develop the game (along with the same toolset) their workflow is likely a lot more efficient than what it would be when they're still developing the engine and the tools and what not and have to try and get stuff done with half the functionality they need.  

The first game of a series usually takes the longest, DA:O may have taken 5 years to develop but it's an outlier in the industry and as far as I'm aware underwent several iterations.

[LPPrince]

Marionetten wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

Considering you used blatant misinformation

Such as what?

Such as...

LPPrince wrote...

Dragon Age:Origins was their blast to the past, and it was highly successful in its own right, but not as successful as their hybrid.

It's already been established that Dragon Age: Origins was the more successful title.

Notice he said, "Last November".

Past tense. Try again.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Also the early builds of DA:O look nothing like it did upon release. It was more into NWN territory with mp and everything

[haberman13]

Marionetten wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

Considering you used blatant misinformation

Such as what?

Such as...

LPPrince wrote...

Dragon Age:Origins was their blast to the past, and it was highly successful in its own right, but not as successful as their hybrid.

It's already been established that Dragon Age: Origins was the more successful title.

Oddly enough profits are being overshadowed by the corporate mantra "easier, more accessible, more action".

Silly really, considering profit is the key, they are in fact reducing profit by catering to the people who bought LESS of their product (ME2 fans).

[LPPrince]

haberman13 wrote...

Solution: develop for PC, strip away all thought inducing content and tactical combat, *bam* console version.

Is that a subtle bash at console gamers? Cause that's what it looks like.

[Marionetten]

LPPrince wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

Considering you used blatant misinformation

Such as what?

Such as...

LPPrince wrote...

Dragon Age:Origins was their blast to the past, and it was highly successful in its own right, but not as successful as their hybrid.

It's already been established that Dragon Age: Origins was the more successful title.

Notice he said, "Last November".

Past tense. Try again.

I love how you're trying to weasel yourself out of it. It's almost cute.

I assume you have actual proof that Mass Effect performed better than Dragon Age: Origins, then? Seeing how everything points in the opposite direction... well, the burden is on you. Go right ahead.

[LPPrince]

haberman13 wrote...

they are in fact reducing profit by catering to the people who bought LESS of their product (ME2 fans).

Incorrect my good man. They are not catering exclusively to those fans. They are broadening.

What do I mean? They are attracting both fans of the first game and fans of other titles.

Don't assume its one or the other.

[AllThatJazz]

This is a response to numerous other posts in this thread, none of which I can find right now because my brain is hurting. Still, I'll press on, eh?


1) My female Shepard was NOT an afterthought. Jennifer Hale is awesome, and the female Shepard, despite being sadly overlooked in the marketing campaign, is way better than ManShep.

2) Loyalty to Bioware via forum posting does not mean that all of their games should be targeted only to those who demonstrate their loyalty via forum posting and otherwise proving their hardcore credentials. It does sometimes mean that extra-specially loyal hardcore devoted fans who post a lot sometimes get INTO Bioware's games somehow. Is this not reward enough? Your own little piece of immortality!  

3) I have bought every piece of DLC (apart from the Darkspawn thing). And every game released by Bioware since Baldur's Gate except Sonic. Yay me, eh? I may only have completed Dragon Age once (almost twice), this is in no way an indication of 'disloyalty' to Bioware or even of a 'casual' approach to gaming or Dragon Age, only an inability to create more than 24 hours in a day, and a certain reluctance to put my kids up for adoption to allow me more gaming time (tempting occasionally, but no). Since its release, Dragon Age is the game I have spent most of my free time on. I would venture that the above makes me something of a hardcore fan (terrifying though this prospect currently seems). I am still looking forward to DA2. Apparently, looking forward to DA2 means that I am NOT a hardcore fan. 

4) Accusing Bio of 'dumbing down' is premature when we still know very little. I don't understand why the first (and second and third) reactions have to be panic, rage and dismay. The people who created this IP in the first place might know what they are doing. Why assume that they do not, but that you do?

5) The 'Masses' who bought DA:O are the reason why a DA2 is being made at all, even if it's not the game you feel you are entitled to. 


That was all a lot grouchier than I intended.  Plus it's taken me so bloody long to write that I reckon LP Prince has probably made all these points, only better. Bah. 

[Onyx Jaguar]

Technically all games are developed on PC, but to develop for PC you have to compensate for a variety of architectures. Developing for Consoles means developing for a single set and because of Microsofts foray it is easier than say it was in years past.

[haberman13]

LPPrince wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

Solution: develop for PC, strip away all thought inducing content and tactical combat, *bam* console version.

Is that a subtle bash at console gamers? Cause that's what it looks like.

Absolutely not, just that the majority of each player base has different tastes.

This would really be the smart way to dev a game, make it on PC for the PC audience and then remove the stuff that frustrates the console audience (or is impossible with the given control method).

Maximize profit Bioware!!!  As a positive affect we all get the type of games we like.

Modifié par haberman13, 13 juillet 2010 - 09:07 .

[LPPrince]

Marionetten wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

Considering you used blatant misinformation

Such as what?

Such as...

LPPrince wrote...

Dragon Age:Origins was their blast to the past, and it was highly successful in its own right, but not as successful as their hybrid.

It's already been established that Dragon Age: Origins was the more successful title.

Notice he said, "Last November".

Past tense. Try again.

I love how you're trying to weasel yourself out of it. It's almost cute.

I assume you have actual proof that Mass Effect performed better than Dragon Age: Origins, then? Seeing how everything points in the opposite direction... well, the burden is on you. Go right ahead.

I can't confirm PC-wise, and I'm sure DAO outperformed it on PC regardless, but I'll try to look for PC numbers.

360 numbers can be found on a picture that's been posted around here the last few days. Gotta find that too.