416 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

filetemo wrote...

If anything, european gamers worth more than americans, because we pay 60 euros while you pay 60 dollars.

I assume that was a joke?(smiley at the end makes me believe so)

[Bryy_Miller]

LPPrince wrote...

Adanu wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
Well, I wasn't aware Bioware valued some money over others.

We don't.

My point is that some people apparently think we should-- that the "console kiddie" or the person with "no imagination" or the person who plays a game only once is somehow less worthwhile a person to develop a game for even though they spent exactly the same amount of money on the game as the PC gamer, the person with all the imagination in the world who likes to read their own dialogue or the person who re-plays the game a hundred times (or hangs out on these forums, even).

My point is that if you wish to use arguments with each other, or with us, as to why you should be listened to-- perhaps leaving elitism out of it would be the smart choice, that's all I'm saying.

Are you saying that the casual idiot who barely plays your game is more worth your time than the attentive ,contributing member of the community who has a dozen characters and offers contructive criticism?

What he's saying is the "casual idiot", as you so eloquently put it, is not worth any more or any less than a "attentive contributing member of the community".

Yeah, but what you forget it is that they obviously don't think that is true, and that is all that matters.

[dheer]

David Gaider wrote...

My point is that some people apparently think we should-- that the "console kiddie" or the person with "no imagination" or the person who plays a game only once is somehow less worthwhile a person to develop a game for even though they spent exactly the same amount of money on the game as the PC gamer, the person with all the imagination in the world who likes to read their own dialogue or the person who re-plays the game a hundred times (or hangs out on these forums, even).

But, but...



I was just sad we can't continue the Warden's story. I hope there's some kind of dlc before DA2 comes out that has some kind of end for him/her. Awakening's end was a bit abrupt.

Modifié par dheer, 13 juillet 2010 - 05:59 .

[Addai]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

Yeah, I understand what you are saying.  All the "new and different" type language does look like marketing speak to me, so I guess you understand my point of view as well.  

OTOH, the specific changes that have been announced are a pretty big departure from DAO and can't just be put down to marketing.

[TSamee]

dheer wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

My point is that some people apparently think we should-- that the "console kiddie" or the person with "no imagination" or the person who plays a game only once is somehow less worthwhile a person to develop a game for even though they spent exactly the same amount of money on the game as the PC gamer, the person with all the imagination in the world who likes to read their own dialogue or the person who re-plays the game a hundred times (or hangs out on these forums, even).

But, but...



I was just sad we can't continue the Warden's story. I hope there's some kind of dlc before DA2 comes out that has some kind of end for him/her. Awakening's end was a bit abrupt.

That's bloody hilarious X'D. You, my friend, are a genius. Funniest thing I've seen all day... mind you, I spent it inside Pakistani courts, so it's not like I was reading Penny Arcade.  Is that Garrett in your display pic?

[filetemo]

LPPrince wrote...
I assume that was a joke?

are you really going to name your PC Mike Hawke?

[Bryy_Miller]

Dude, get with the program. So many people are.

[Stanley Woo]

Let's keep the fighting and personal attacks and name-calling out of the discussion, please.

[dheer]

TSamee wrote...
That's bloody hilarious X'D. You, my friend, are a genius. Funniest thing I've seen all day... mind you, I spent it inside Pakistani courts, so it's not like I was reading Penny Arcade.  Is that Garrett in your display pic?

Sure is. Garrett is my favorite game character. Well, other than Kain.

The pic is from a Zero Punctuation video. Yahtzee is hilarious.

[Ecael]

Adanu wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
Well, I wasn't aware Bioware valued some money over others.

We don't.

My point is that some people apparently think we should-- that the "console kiddie" or the person with "no imagination" or the person who plays a game only once is somehow less worthwhile a person to develop a game for even though they spent exactly the same amount of money on the game as the PC gamer, the person with all the imagination in the world who likes to read their own dialogue or the person who re-plays the game a hundred times (or hangs out on these forums, even).

My point is that if you wish to use arguments with each other, or with us, as to why you should be listened to-- perhaps leaving elitism out of it would be the smart choice, that's all I'm saying.

Are you saying that the casual idiot who barely plays your game is more worth your time than the attentive ,contributing member of the community who has a dozen characters and offers contructive criticism?

I'm sorry, but that logic does not work for me. Some people are inherently going to be more worthy of your time than others. If you think otherwise, this explains a great deal about the details we've been told thus far about DA2.

Don't get me wrong, I am going to give the game a try... but I am under no illusion that Bioware is going to live up to its original promise after doing a 180 from the original ideas they proclaimed for the series.

Because saying "casual idiot who barely plays your game" is the best way to start your constructive criticism?

Do people even know what constructive criticism means anymore?

Khavos wrote...

Adanu wrote...
Are you saying that the casual idiot who barely plays your game is more worth your time than the attentive ,contributing member of the community who has a dozen characters and offers contructive criticism?

No, he's saying that you're not worth more time than the "casual idiot" who barely plays his game. You're both worth an equal amount of time, because your cash is cash in either case.

Stanley Woo got into this and took a lot of flack several months ago when he stated that game development was a dictatorship, not a democracy. The developers design the game; the community doesn't.

That's why they're called developers.

[AllThatJazz]

Bella Stiletto wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Heh. This is pretty much business as usual.

If you're weary of the reaction, then I suggest heading here for a chuckle:

http://www.something...ge-reaction.php

This made me laugh. Thanks, Mr. Gaider

Very funny. Can Hawke be renamed Hank Attitude? Please? I don't mind playing as a guy in this case.

[Lord Gremlin]

Slidell505 wrote...

THERE'S GOLD IN THIS HERE GAME GOOOOLD I SAYS GOOOOLD!!!!!!!

A very small Golden Beard pendant included in collector's edition.


Please?:innocent:

[Khavos]

Ecael wrote...
That's why they're called developers.

Thanks for emphasizing my point?

[TSamee]

I would pay for DLC to add a "Hank Attitude" skin and voice-overs. Nothing too elaborate, just a single soundbyte saying "Hank" that's pasted in every time Hawke's name is mentioned XD



Gaider, you brighten all of our days, like a giant banhammer covered in christmas lights.

[Fraevar]

David Gaider wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
Well, I wasn't aware Bioware valued some money over others.

We don't.

My point is that some people apparently think we should-- that the "console kiddie" or the person with "no imagination" or the person who plays a game only once is somehow less worthwhile a person to develop a game for even though they spent exactly the same amount of money on the game as the PC gamer, the person with all the imagination in the world who likes to read their own dialogue or the person who re-plays the game a hundred times (or hangs out on these forums, even).

My point is that if you wish to use arguments with each other, or with us, as to why you should be listened to-- perhaps leaving elitism out of it would be the smart choice, that's all I'm saying.

I'd say it's more because of the general trend of "streamlining" game design to accomodate the likes of one audience over another. I don't believe that there's an inherent connection between a person's intellect and their choice of gaming platform, but if you look at the general trend of oversimplifying gamedesign to accomodate console releases then the gaming industry almost does seem to think so. So far, the classic genres have given up more to be on consoles than they've gotten in return, and sadly I think DAII has now been chosen by some as the ultimate battleground for this particular schism.

DAII cost the silent protagonist. And every single line we've heard about the game so far, seems to indicate that the changes made are indeed because of the "console kiddies" as you called them, the tactical combat system is also gone for PS3 and X360. The flipside of that coin, is of course the statement that "no major changes" will be made to the PC version's combat, which I am thankful for. In ME2, I had to put up with a combat system that was 100% console oriented, even though it could've been made much more tactical on PC.

I will wait and see, naturally - but at the same time I will be honest and say that this "oversimplification" that's trendy in the gaming industry (and doesn't extend to simply system design, but also in writing games that are much more action oriented, as opposed to character or story driven - like ME2) worries me. I don't doubt the writing skills of yourself, Mary or Sheryl - I admire your work on Origins greatly - I'm just worried that what's built around said work will become but a hollow shell of what it used to be, because of "streamlined" system design.

Modifié par Delerius_Jedi, 13 juillet 2010 - 06:37 .

[LPPrince]

filetemo wrote...

LPPrince wrote...
I assume that was a joke?

are you really going to name your PC Mike Hawke?

Yes.

[Lord_Saulot]

Addai67 wrote...

Lord_Saulot wrote...

Yeah, I understand what you are saying.  All the "new and different" type language does look like marketing speak to me, so I guess you understand my point of view as well.  

OTOH, the specific changes that have been announced are a pretty big departure from DAO and can't just be put down to marketing.

Which ones do you mean?  I don't consider human race, PC voiceover, or dialogue wheel to be major changes to the basic gameplay, but I can see that others might feel differently.  But I also remember people last year complaining about the lack of voiceover for the projected DAO, so obviously everyone can't be pleased either way.  Were you referring to those changes, or to something different?

Modifié par Lord_Saulot, 13 juillet 2010 - 06:33 .

[SchaerMann30]

From a similar thread, and my response therein. Bear with me, because it's a bit long, and it has bearing.

You know, I've been following both DA:O and the upcoming DA2 possibly
before the people griping here even heard of them. I saw everything I
could find legally on the matter, even to the point of going to the
Library of Congress' game section (yes, they have one) to look over
anything and everything I could find on them they had.

People,
you're complaining over screens of a test build at best. They're
constantly tweaking, updating, upgrading, etc., every aspect of the game
design so far for the best combination for their engine. I'm not in
game design myself, but I've got aspirations that direction and thus I
keep up on the tech, the processes they have to go through, and
innumerable other details which would probably bore you. The screens
seen in a magazine interview pre-release, especially this far ahead of
release, are going to look bad. They always do. One of the things game
developers do is tweak until it's time to ship for certification for
"going gold". Everyone does it; nothing to see there.

The
difference is, BioWare broke so much new ground with Origins that they
elevated the Western cRPG standards to a level that only they can
steadily maintain and push the boundaries of; I've played multiple cRPGs
over the years, from companies too numerous to name, and blast it all,
BioWare raised the bar to a near-impossible height and said to the
competition, and themselves, "Now, let's see who hurdles it first."

Yes,
the smaller Darkspawn look like crap, but it's both an early build and
the screen itself to blame. We didn't get the level of detail on them
that we did with the ogre, but you know, I looked forever at those DA:O
ogres while I was killing them, and *they* were the ones that looked
cartoonish. Not one of the other races, even other Darkspawn, were
bloody lilac, for the sake of us
all! It was off-putting to me, and really broke the game immersion for
me every time I had to fight one. All those fairly reasonable-looking
races and monsters, and here's this huge, muscular, hulking ogre who
looked like he'd had a run-in with a village dye-vat. Distracting and
dismaying.

Besides, the fact that they looked like
run-of-the-mill LOTR monsters was one of the constant, major gripes here
forever; "If you're going to have monsters which were twisted common
races, make them look like it, and not like orcs and every other LOTR
and D&D monster we know," you said. I'll dig up links for several if
asked. You can't have it both ways, people. You want BioWare to listen
to the cash customer; this is proof in action, and you're complaining
that you got your wish? Christ, I know six-year olds with more sense.

No developer who is sane and on the
winning roll with an IP is going to simply release a game as
highly-anticipated as DA:O was and when the story writing and final work
on the base engine was done, simply let it sit idle for years before
rushing out a release. Nope, they use the old smithing term and "strike
while the iron is hot." There was no justifiable reason for BioWare's
Dragon Age team to sit on their hands for a while, get completely split
up for other projects, and suddenly have to be called back from their
assigned tasks to crank out a sequel because the masses were whining.

For
my part, I think the improvements on the ogre are refreshing and
much-needed. I'm going to reserve judgment on other Darkspawn until I
can see a better screen of them.

Guys and girls, you won't know
until it's closer to done how it's going to come out, and complaints
only irritate the devs (and those of us willing to wait and see before
passing judgment; admittedly, the dialogue wheel makes me nervous, but
if the improvements rumored are true, then I've nothing to complain
about). Try not to put the cart before the horse and avoid building Jack
stories; rarely does any good, and mostly hurts your chances of being
taken seriously if a genuine problem comes up. We're T-minus 8-9 months
for release; there's not enough info out yet to make any kind of
informed decision, and anything negative we perceive in the snippets we
do have are getting blown out of proportion on a monumental scale.

Take
a breath, blow it out; repeat several times, and just try to chill, huh?

Now, what does this mean? Quite simply, it means that everything keeps moving, even in the gaming industry. What may have been great for DA:O might not, and is not, going to be good enough for the current tech. What it also means is that there's quite a lot of controversy and breast-beating over something which hasn't come out yet, and may (read: is likely to) change in the next 8 or so months. There's too much going on here that seems to be nothing but nag, whine, complain, moan, counter-argue, rinse and repeat, endlessly. The positivity threads are few and far between, despite the fact that DA:O was a stupendous game hearkening back to old-school days, but you know, the tech allows for PC VO. It also allows for depth of story being implemented by new innovations.

Enough about that, however; I have yet another point to make here, along similar lines. You're worried about lack of closure for your Warden? I suggest you go read as much of the Song of Ice and Fire series for an example of this kind of tale-weaving. BioWare, from what I've heard, has drawn quite heavily on it for influence on the DA world of Thedas. In fact, there are even some in-jokes there if you look hard enough, explore a bit, listen to everyone, and know the series. Also, you're never guaranteed closure for anything. Stir around, live a bit, lose someone who's as close to a possible lifemate you might have, lose a parent suddenly after a major fight you didn't reconcile before their passing; no way to get closure for any of those, and far more, even without death.

Complaining about them updating tech that won't sell to more than a tiny fraction of a single percent of their customers in a market as cutthroat as this one is silly; complaining about someone from a premier company with strong RPG roots giving a living, breathing world for you to impact, simply because they changed up some minor items to allow for a better overall experience for everyone, went in an entirely new direction with a story, and decided to break their tried, trusted formula in several ways while keeping the core true to themselves because they wanted to innovate. beggars the mind.

Try to take a step back from all of this, look at yourselves and these complaints and arguments from an outside perspective, and if you see something silly each and every argument (and it's always the same arguments, with the labels changed, wording differing, and warmed over, every single time), maybe you'll decide to do something to change it. I know many have legitimate concerns over their perceptions of what we know at this juncture, but you know what? We've all got less than a thimbleful of hard facts running around with speculation chasing it, and every time something new emerges, speculation multiplies and grows exponentially.

We've too much speculation chasing too few hard facts; it's time we examined our actions a bit, moderated our tones, remembered the manners we were taught, and attempted to act like civilized adults instead of seeming to degenerate into a pack of screaming children arguing over the rules interpretations of "Cowboys and Indians" (or whatever imaginary children's game you wish without rules). Yes, I know it's the internet, but I come here to the BioWare forums to relax, have a few giggles, and catch up on the latest news regarding things BioWare which I happen to be interested in; DA2 is one of them, and I come here to get the news and am inundated every time by this horde of crows descending, all crying "Doom! DOOM!" in one variation or another. It's saddening to see the BioWare boards come to this; I recall BioWare fans being more mature and polite than this, even on the internet. What happened?

So, just relax if possible and do try to treat each other civilly, even if many times you feel like someone on the internet might be better served losing teeth; we all get that way, but if you must voice a concern, no matter how angry you are with whomever it is that earned your various wraths, please, PLEASE try to at least keep your words civil. It really does help everyone in the long run.

Modifié par SchaerMann30, 13 juillet 2010 - 06:39 .

[Kalfear]

David Gaider wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
Well, I wasn't aware Bioware valued some money over others.

We don't.

My point is that some people apparently think we should-- that the "console kiddie" or the person with "no imagination" or the person who plays a game only once is somehow less worthwhile a person to develop a game for even though they spent exactly the same amount of money on the game as the PC gamer, the person with all the imagination in the world who likes to read their own dialogue or the person who re-plays the game a hundred times (or hangs out on these forums, even).

My point is that if you wish to use arguments with each other, or with us, as to why you should be listened to-- perhaps leaving elitism out of it would be the smart choice, that's all I'm saying.

hmmmm, interesting

While I agree her tone was smarky
Was you posting a childish maockery downplaying and well insulting your customer base that does use their imagination and have been around longer also not uncalled for?

I gotta say, I expected better from Bioware. Not blind devotion but even a semblence of unbiasness and open minded thought.

guess thats just me, carry on insulting your customer base as you see fit while ignoreing the true elitism shown every day by those blindly patting you on you back for the quality of a product they never even seen yet.

[Jimmy Fury]

AllThatJazz wrote...
Very funny. Can Hawke be renamed Hank Attitude? Please? I don't mind playing as a guy in this case.

shhhh this is a big secret but he already totally is.
You know how Thedas started out as an acronym for THE Dragon Age Setting?
well...
Hank Attitude Will Kill Everyone.

[Kalfear]

Narreneth wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

YOU don't give your character life.  YOU don't even get to decide *what* your character says to people.  You choose from a list of pre-determined responses in *every* situation.  If *you* are adding life that isn't in those lines and scenes originally, you are misintepreting what is happening.  

Yes of course we choose from a limited list of options.

And when the option for my character doesn't exist, I have the option of pretending it does through THE IMAGINATIONZ.  


That is the worst logic I've ever heard.  If that's the case you can use IMAGINATIONZ as you so eloquently put it to "imagine" whatever life you want that the voice acting leaves out.  Are you really that stupid?

The whole purpose of using my imagination (which in this case refers to imaging the way my character is speaking a line) is to PREVENT those jarring situations where your character says something out of character.  If I'm playing as a violent dalish elf who hates humans but my only options when rescuing a human farmer in a random encounter are :

1. I'm glad to be of service.
2. GIMME ALL YOUR MONEY
3. NO REALLY GIMME ALL YOUR MONEY

None of those options really fit, but with a bit of imaginationz you can make the first option fit quite well (Assuming your character is still a Good Alignment, Neutral or Evil versions would have an easier time roleplaying this scene) if you read it in a tone similar to Morrigan's sarcastic'condescending tone she uses quite often early on in the game.

Truly, Bioware is mostly pretty good about including enough options that I can atleast find one that suits my needs, but they can't predict every possible character personality. (And accomodate it through dialog)  


I don't need my character to express the emotions visually because 1. The emotions that character experiences are dictated by who that character is ( which is in turn dictated by the player).  and  2. Bioware does a well enough job of conveying the emotions of a scene through NPC voice acting, lighting and what not that I don't need my character to adopt a "Sadface" to explain the intent of the scene to me. (Obviously the sadface is a very primitive example of this, but I think it's a rather good one seeing as it could look completely stupid on the majority of characters in DA:O )

The characters you interact with react the same to no matter what you imagine yourself to be saying or how you imagine yourself saying it.  That is a completely invalid point.  If the NPCs are doing the scene-setting for you and you fail to pick up on the fact that everything you're "imagining" doesn't fit with what is actually going on then you're fairly hopeless. 

There's a difference between imagining a different tone for a phrase and changing the intent too.  Yes NPC's will respond in the same way no matter how you read it in your head but in most cases their response will fit how you chose to have a character say it.

Continuing with my farmer example, people in such situation probably won't care if you're being somewhat sarcastic as you just saved their life.  Them reacting in the same way they would if you were dead serious saying it isn't really notable because they're just glad to be alive.

For more complex scenarios, there's generally a way for most characters to adequately respond without breaking character.  Bioware did a good job in DA:O to provide plenty of options.

You're assuming there aren't going to be a multitude of responses on the wheel dialogue system.  You have no idea how it's going to work out.  Of the three in your farmer example you've got "Kind" "Jerky" "Super Jerky" 

They could easily fit your "Sarcastic" in there too.  Or your "I hate you because I'm Dalish" as well.  BioWare always has tons of dialogue options.  Just because it isn't spelled out word for word for you doesn't mean you're not still going to have tons and tons of options.

Actually that completely false
There was many many many times in my 1 play through of ME2 where what Bioware offered dint remotely come close to how I wanted it to sound in my imagination as the character.

Which broke immersion which was a huge issue in ME2 (lack of immersion)

Just becaus eBioware gives you a few options doesnt mean it covers all situation and ideas.

[Addai]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Lord_Saulot wrote...

Yeah, I understand what you are saying.  All the "new and different" type language does look like marketing speak to me, so I guess you understand my point of view as well.  

OTOH, the specific changes that have been announced are a pretty big departure from DAO and can't just be put down to marketing.

Which ones do you mean?  I don't consider human race, PC voiceover, or dialogue wheel to be major changes to the basic gameplay, but I can see that others might feel differently.  But I also remember people last year complaining about the lack of voiceover for the projected DAO, so obviously everyone can't be pleased either way.  Were you referring to those changes, or to something different?

Yes, those.

[Ecael]

Khavos wrote...

Ecael wrote...
That's why they're called developers.

Thanks for emphasizing my point?

Your point being that developers make the video games, and you don't?

Yet you're still demanding that BioWare appeal only to you.

[LPPrince]

Kalfear wrote...

Just becaus eBioware gives you a few options doesnt mean it covers all situation and ideas.

You expect them to? DAO didn't even do that. Lets use a hypothetical example-

I wanted my Shepard to be a kid with daddy issues who wanted to be a clown when he grew up.

None of the options in dialogue gave me the opportunity to role play this.

Who's fault is that? Mine? Or the game?

It would be mine. Why? Because no game will EVER cover all bases of the imagination.

You'd be better off staring at a black screen and imagining what happens than playing a ME1/ME2 or a DAO.