416 réponses à ce sujet

[AllThatJazz]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...
Very funny. Can Hawke be renamed Hank Attitude? Please? I don't mind playing as a guy in this case.

shhhh this is a big secret but he already totally is.
You know how Thedas started out as an acronym for THE Dragon Age Setting?
well...
Hank Attitude Will Kill Everyone.

You've just made my day 

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Kalfear wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
Well, I wasn't aware Bioware valued some money over others.

We don't.

My point is that some people apparently think we should-- that the "console kiddie" or the person with "no imagination" or the person who plays a game only once is somehow less worthwhile a person to develop a game for even though they spent exactly the same amount of money on the game as the PC gamer, the person with all the imagination in the world who likes to read their own dialogue or the person who re-plays the game a hundred times (or hangs out on these forums, even).

My point is that if you wish to use arguments with each other, or with us, as to why you should be listened to-- perhaps leaving elitism out of it would be the smart choice, that's all I'm saying.

hmmmm, interesting

While I agree her tone was smarky
Was you posting a childish maockery downplaying and well insulting your customer base that does use their imagination and have been around longer also not uncalled for?

I gotta say, I expected better from Bioware. Not blind devotion but even a semblence of unbiasness and open minded thought.

guess thats just me, carry on insulting your customer base as you see fit while ignoreing the true elitism shown every day by those blindly patting you on you back for the quality of a product they never even seen yet.

I don't think David was insulting at all.  His point is quite a valid one: Why do the seemingly more "dedicated" fans deserve more "authority" over Bioware?  I suppose one argument that can be made is that the more dedicated group is more likely to be alienated by some design decisions  while the more casuals will likely still buy it/play it.  
Besides, if you read too far into dev post and say stuff like "I expected better from Bioware" it's just gonna make it harder/discourage Devs from communicating with the fans.  Bioware and any other game dev isn't a collective hivemind afterall and they have their own personal opinions.  

That's my 2 cents anyway.

[Khavos]

Ecael wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Ecael wrote...
That's why they're called developers.

Thanks for emphasizing my point?

Your point being that developers make the video games, and you don't?

Yet you're still demanding that BioWare appeal only to you.

No, I was responding to the guy doing that demanding, and explaining that Woo did the same a couple months ago.

Might want to try a little reading comprehension next time.

[Ecael]

Khavos wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Ecael wrote...
That's why they're called developers.

Thanks for emphasizing my point?

Your point being that developers make the video games, and you don't?

Yet you're still demanding that BioWare appeal only to you.

No, I was responding to the guy doing that demanding, and explaining that Woo did the same a couple months ago.

Might want to try a little reading comprehension next time.

Sorry, it was easier to ignore the part of your post where you accused BioWare employees of greed again.

[Jimmy Fury]

Kalfear wrote...
Was you posting a childish maockery downplaying and well insulting your customer base that does use their imagination and have been around longer also not uncalled for?
I gotta say, I expected better from Bioware. Not blind devotion but even a semblence of unbiasness and open minded thought.
guess thats just me, carry on insulting your customer base as you see fit while ignoreing the true elitism shown every day by those blindly patting you on you back for the quality of a product they never even seen yet.

The Dalai Lama once said (paraphrasing because my copy of the The Art of Happiness is... somewhere. dunno.) that if you hold anger in your heart you will perceive anger in the hearts of others.

I saw nothing in Gaider's statement that was mockery or insult. I beleive he was sincerely saying that there are bioware players who have all the imagination in the world. I took it as him complimenting teh imagination and creativity of the dedicated diehard RPGers.

The fact remains though that no matter how imaginative and creative they are, their opinion is not inherently more important than anyone elses and to believe it is comes off as elitism.

[Khavos]

Ecael wrote...
Sorry, it was easier to ignore the part of your post where you accused BioWare employees of greed again.

Please stop asserting that Bioware is not a business. 

[xolors]

maybe the game was announced to early.

[AllThatJazz]

Kalfear wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
Well, I wasn't aware Bioware valued some money over others.

We don't.

My point is that some people apparently think we should-- that the "console kiddie" or the person with "no imagination" or the person who plays a game only once is somehow less worthwhile a person to develop a game for even though they spent exactly the same amount of money on the game as the PC gamer, the person with all the imagination in the world who likes to read their own dialogue or the person who re-plays the game a hundred times (or hangs out on these forums, even).

My point is that if you wish to use arguments with each other, or with us, as to why you should be listened to-- perhaps leaving elitism out of it would be the smart choice, that's all I'm saying.

hmmmm, interesting

While I agree her tone was smarky
Was you posting a childish maockery downplaying and well insulting your customer base that does use their imagination and have been around longer also not uncalled for?

I gotta say, I expected better from Bioware. Not blind devotion but even a semblence of unbiasness and open minded thought.

guess thats just me, carry on insulting your customer base as you see fit while ignoreing the true elitism shown every day by those blindly patting you on you back for the quality of a product they never even seen yet.

Mr Gaider's response doesn't sound snarky. He was, in fact, being an anti-snark, there. How is pointing out that just because someone plays on a console or doesn't play games a lot or (the horror!) doesn't contribute to the Bioboards, it doesn't make them any less a part of Bio's customer base being snarky? There was no attack in that post, just a defense of people like, well, me. I game on console and PC, usually don't get enough free hours to play a game more than once or twice (having kids is kind of a time sucker, ya know?), and I've only started posting on these boards in the past few days. I have, however, spent my money on Dragon Age. Which makes me a part of Bioware's customer base, too.

Edited to make more sense!

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 13 juillet 2010 - 07:08 .

[Kalfear]

AllThatJazz wrote...

Kalfear wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
Well, I wasn't aware Bioware valued some money over others.

We don't.

My point is that some people apparently think we should-- that the "console kiddie" or the person with "no imagination" or the person who plays a game only once is somehow less worthwhile a person to develop a game for even though they spent exactly the same amount of money on the game as the PC gamer, the person with all the imagination in the world who likes to read their own dialogue or the person who re-plays the game a hundred times (or hangs out on these forums, even).

My point is that if you wish to use arguments with each other, or with us, as to why you should be listened to-- perhaps leaving elitism out of it would be the smart choice, that's all I'm saying.

hmmmm, interesting

While I agree her tone was smarky
Was you posting a childish maockery downplaying and well insulting your customer base that does use their imagination and have been around longer also not uncalled for?

I gotta say, I expected better from Bioware. Not blind devotion but even a semblence of unbiasness and open minded thought.

guess thats just me, carry on insulting your customer base as you see fit while ignoreing the true elitism shown every day by those blindly patting you on you back for the quality of a product they never even seen yet.

Mr Gaider's response doesn't sound snarky. He was, in fact, being an anti-snark, there. How is pointing out that just because someone plays on a console or doesn't play games a lot or (the horror!) doesn't contribute to the Bioboards, it doesn't make them any less a part of Bio's customer base being snarky? There was no attack in that post, just a defense of people like, well, me. I game on console and PC, usually don't get enough free hours to play a game more than once or twice (having kids is kind of a time sucker, ya know?), and I've only started posting on these boards in the past few days. I have, however, spent my money on Dragon Age. Which makes me a part of Bioware's customer base, too.

Edited to make more sense!

great except I didnt say he (David Gaider) sounded Smarky which kinda voids the rest of what you said!

And for those that cant read, him posting the unfunny link was insulting! 
Not his responce!

But so all is clear, I dont dislike his responce, just wish he would say it TO BOTH SIDES! Not just one which thus far hes been very guilty of doing!

[TMZuk]

Narreneth wrote...

TMZuk wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

The exception that proves the rule.

Baldur's Gate Series, Mass Effect 1 and 2, Dragon Age, NWN, Jade Empire, KOTOR.

Woooo. 

From those I'd actually call Baldur's Gate the exception.

Just saying.

You're right.  Baldur's Gate was sooooooo terrible.

...............

Then I seriously wonder why you play RPG's at all, or if you have an inkling what an RPG is? Because it is only barely ME and certainly not ME2. Fun games as those to were, ME only have the basest of RPG elements, and ME2 is an action/adventure-game.

That was sarcasm you twit.

Sorry. I totally did not get that.

[Lord_Saulot]

Addai67 wrote...

Lord_Saulot wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Lord_Saulot wrote...

Yeah, I understand what you are saying.  All the "new and different" type language does look like marketing speak to me, so I guess you understand my point of view as well.  

OTOH, the specific changes that have been announced are a pretty big departure from DAO and can't just be put down to marketing.

Which ones do you mean?  I don't consider human race, PC voiceover, or dialogue wheel to be major changes to the basic gameplay, but I can see that others might feel differently.  But I also remember people last year complaining about the lack of voiceover for the projected DAO, so obviously everyone can't be pleased either way.  Were you referring to those changes, or to something different?

Yes, those.

Ok cool.  I appreciate your response.  I don't see those changes as a major change of direction, personally, but I can see that others might.

[AllThatJazz]

Kalfear wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

Kalfear wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
Well, I wasn't aware Bioware valued some money over others.

We don't.

My point is that some people apparently think we should-- that the "console kiddie" or the person with "no imagination" or the person who plays a game only once is somehow less worthwhile a person to develop a game for even though they spent exactly the same amount of money on the game as the PC gamer, the person with all the imagination in the world who likes to read their own dialogue or the person who re-plays the game a hundred times (or hangs out on these forums, even).

My point is that if you wish to use arguments with each other, or with us, as to why you should be listened to-- perhaps leaving elitism out of it would be the smart choice, that's all I'm saying.

hmmmm, interesting

While I agree her tone was smarky
Was you posting a childish maockery downplaying and well insulting your customer base that does use their imagination and have been around longer also not uncalled for?

I gotta say, I expected better from Bioware. Not blind devotion but even a semblence of unbiasness and open minded thought.

guess thats just me, carry on insulting your customer base as you see fit while ignoreing the true elitism shown every day by those blindly patting you on you back for the quality of a product they never even seen yet.

Mr Gaider's response doesn't sound snarky. He was, in fact, being an anti-snark, there. How is pointing out that just because someone plays on a console or doesn't play games a lot or (the horror!) doesn't contribute to the Bioboards, it doesn't make them any less a part of Bio's customer base being snarky? There was no attack in that post, just a defense of people like, well, me. I game on console and PC, usually don't get enough free hours to play a game more than once or twice (having kids is kind of a time sucker, ya know?), and I've only started posting on these boards in the past few days. I have, however, spent my money on Dragon Age. Which makes me a part of Bioware's customer base, too.

Edited to make more sense!

great except I didnt say he (David Gaider) sounded Smarky which kinda voids the rest of what you said!

And for those that cant read, him posting the unfunny link was insulting! 
Not his responce!

But so all is clear, I dont dislike his responce, just wish he would say it TO BOTH SIDES! Not just one which thus far hes been very guilty of doing!

Well, forgive me for being unaware that 'smarky' is a word .And  you didn't point out that his link was the insult, you stated that his post was an insult. Which is why I and others misinterpreted.  Peace?

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 13 juillet 2010 - 07:23 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Kalfear wrote...
And for those that cant read, him posting the unfunny link was insulting! 
Not his responce!

But so all is clear, I dont dislike his responce, just wish he would say it TO BOTH SIDES! Not just one which thus far hes been very guilty of doing!

But you didn't say the link was insulting you said he was insulting and you quoted his response...
I'm not following how that's indicative of our reading comprehension skills.

[Bryy_Miller]

LPPrince wrote...

Kalfear wrote...

Just becaus eBioware gives you a few options doesnt mean it covers all situation and ideas.

You expect them to? DAO didn't even do that. Lets use a hypothetical example-

I wanted my Shepard to be a kid with daddy issues who wanted to be a clown when he grew up.

None of the options in dialogue gave me the opportunity to role play this.

Who's fault is that? Mine? Or the game?

It would be mine. Why? Because no game will EVER cover all bases of the imagination.

You'd be better off staring at a black screen and imagining what happens than playing a ME1/ME2 or a DAO.

And thus this has turned into a "you can't IMAGINE your Shepard is gay!" thread.

[Querne]

Usually gamers playing a game once, won´t buy every DLC from an additional horse armour up to Darkspawn Tertris, pull a sword on their friends to test that game, open threads about their beloved game in their favorite forums, update them with news and start facebook sides for it so - no, casual gamers are in my opinion definitely NOT the same as loyal fans, nethertheless if I would not make it depend of using computer or console if somebody is a casual player or not.
Trailer-ing and Pop-upping people to death publishers shouldn´t understimate the power of social networks and yes, the good old word-of-mouth propaganda (thats the way I "sold" 3 copies myself, no, I don´t need a provision, you are welcome).

At least I have to admit that my respect to the Bioware team has evolved as they defend people early critizing as simliar understandable to early cheering.

I officially revoke my bane to make them land on a desert island with a bugged version of Chronicles of Darkspawn (and cookies for Mr. Gaider as extra to reward Alistair) for 30 years as punishment for the voiced, human hero. I change it into: Chronicles won´t be bugged and you can take gifts&pranks with you to lighten up your mood.


To stay fair I´d like to add that the curse for letting out romances once again will be opening up a pedicure salon in the deep roads.

Modifié par Querne, 13 juillet 2010 - 07:42 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Khavos wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Sorry, it was easier to ignore the part of your post where you accused BioWare employees of greed again.

Please stop asserting that Bioware is not a business. 

Saying BioWare is not based on greed is not saying they are not a business.

[TSamee]

Mr. Gaider's response was, in my opinion, the perfect response to what's going on in this and similar threads. Frankly, I find any animosity towards "casual" gamers to be completely unfounded... it's based solely on the fact that the industry's widening its customer base by making its products slightly more mainstream.



Mass Effect was the first BioWare RPG I played, and I played it because, at the time, I was a huge shooter enthusiast with a minor interest in RPGs, and Mass Effect appealed to me because its "mainstream" combat and approach to the genre were easy for me to get into.

Now, Dragon Age: Origins, a so-called "hardcore" RPG is my favourite game of all time, with the possible exception of Deux Ex.

What I'm trying to say is that we need games which can appeal to casual gamers in order to draw them into RPGs and build a loyal client base for BioWare. That way we have a body of fairly hardcore RPG enthusiasts who can enjoy both BioWare's old and new-school RPGs. That's why making games more mainstream isn't a bad thing, so long as they still appeal to the hardcore fanbase that initially fell in love with them.

[MFCell]

If you, like many of us, are very unsatisfied with the direction Dragon Age 2 is taking, and did not ever care much for Mass Effect 1 and 2, and do not want to see DA2 look like SW:TOR, I beg you, please continue to come and make posts on these forums letting Bioware see how unhappy you are with their decision.



Bioware, I do not feel like you took your time to develop a proper sequel to Dragon Age. DA:O took 5 years to develop, how is it viable to make a proper sequel in 18 months? You guys should barely have the groundwork laid out for DA2, yet it is gonna release in March 2011? The words "rushed for the money" come to mind. Or maybe the EA Execs yelled at you when you said you wanted 3 to 5 years for a proper sequel?



Bioware, Bioware. Listen for a moment to a true fan, someone who has played DA for nearly a thousand hours, is near 100%, has beaten the game on nightmare, seen every main ending and DLC, and completed nearly every sidequest. Having Hawke as the main charachter may be the root of an AMAZING story, but to your fanbase, it just looks like a copout. To your fanbase, it looks like you decided the human warrior origin was the most popular, so you you just made Dragon Age 2 feature a human warrior. That's really what it seems like to me, that Hawke is the easiest "one size fits all" hero you could come up with.



I think, after all the researching I've done, my playtime in Mass Effect 1 and 2, and my playtime in Dragon Age(by far the most) leads me to beleive that Bioware is for once, making a mistake. Dragon Age stood out from the crowd because of 2 things. 1) It was IMMENSELY polished. Every line of dialogue and each scene played out exactly as the should have. The combat on PC was unmatched in any game to date. 2) It relied on tried and true game mechanics and moved them forward into the current generation of hardware.





Now as far as I can tell, you have removed both aspects of the game. You are not ( I repeat, there is NO WAY possible) for you to polish DA2 like you did with DA:O. So, the "amazingness" factor will be lower, as conversations don't hold the promise of multiple hidden dialogue options and areas have little depth besides questing through them. Hawke will spend 10 years in this game? How do you expect to polish 10 years of in game time in 18 months? By skipping VAST portions of it, therfore making Hawke less heroic, and making the game flow in a wierd way (think "and then, 2 years later")...



Dragon Age also relies on tried and true game mechanics. The RPG combat is nearly identical to KOTOR and Baldur's Gate. If any tweaks are made to this system, the result could be literally catastrophic for DA2. Having the game play like ME2 with a sword is going to absolutely destroy the team based combat experience that DA:O flaunts so heavily. With so many other aspects of the game going completely ME on us, I wonder what the console versions will turn out like. I can imagine people running around taking cover from fireballs and then running in and spamming the attack button. Like some freakish GoW/ME wanna be.



Really Bioware, this is a sink or swim kind of thing for you guys. If you screw this up trying to make more money off of it, then your fanbase can only assume the same for your next titles. How do you plan on stealing WoW's playerbase if you've already set your fans on fire with this simple announcement? You guys don;t seem to understand the idea behind consistency.



I have on question for you guys, and it is a really important one.



Why Bioware, WHY, do you think Starcraft 2 is a nearly EXACT replica of Starcraft 1? Why, also, does Starcraft 2 not feature the VASTLY popular "Heroes" aspect from Warcraft 3? Because Bioware, just like DA and ME, while Warcraft and Starcraft are VERY SIMILAR, they are also very different. It is those differences which define the two games. Not the similarities. By establishing an IP vastly different from the ME one, you created something very similar to the Starcraft/Warcraft duality. You must NOT close the gap betwen the two franchises, instead, you must ESTABLISH the gap between the two. You guys, as the developers, have the reigns on this project, and it seems to many people like you are making decisions that do not suit you in the long term, nor do they characterise the development style we are used to from Bioware.



Anyways, it's not my job to make sure you guys are doing you job right. If you guys screw this up royally, then by all means, that was your decision to do so. It can be you guys decision to run Bioware's sparkling reputation right into the ground, make sure that none of WoW's playerbase leaves for TOR, make sure DA2 in no way follows DA:O, make sure ME3 just ends in another reaper battle, the list goes on and on. The ball is always in you guys court, until release day. I really think that the decisions you guys have made recently, since DA:O, do not reflect the Bioware the made KOTOR so great, so many years ago.

[Querne]

That's why making games more mainstream isn't a bad thing, so long as they still appeal to the hardcore fanbase that initially fell in love with them.

I think you found the problem, the hardcore fanbase starts to feel  like a husband coming home and finding his love cheating him with a casual affair..

[mornegroth]

*sigh*
I just hope this negativity towards Bioware newest decisions wont have a real impact in the development of the game. I just hope...
This whole ranting is making me nuts. But well, it's the internet... And people sure have their opinions.

Modifié par mornegroth, 13 juillet 2010 - 07:55 .

[TMZuk]

Having been thinking it over, long and hard, I've reached the conclusion that there is three main reasons why I don't expect the game to be satisfactionary to me.

The first and most important: IMO our old characters are dropped on the floor, with nothing resembling closure. So I have to start playing Hawke, with no clue what happened to my old characters, and without having had the chance to bring them to an end. I'm sorry, but I simply refusing to do that. Especially as if Bioware does this with the characters from the first game, what is to prevent them from doing the same with Hawke? With no proper ending to the first game, I refuse to play the second.

The second reason is the voice acting. First of all, I blame VA for being the main reason our old characters are discontinued. Having to pay at least six actors, male and female dwarf, elf and human, instead of two, is simply to expensive, I am certain. My second grief with voice acting is the risk that I'll dislike the actor. As I have stated before, in ME I find Mark Meer to be bland and boring. Haley is a lot better, but still she makes my toes cringe as well from time to time. (I'd rather talk about you *winces*) I like British theatrical acting far more than Hollywood acting. Others feel different about that, so no matter how it is done, for some people it is bound to be wrong.

The third reason: What really made DA a special game-experience was the Origins. They altered your perspective on the game each time you played it through. As a human noble, I detested Duncan, as a Dalish elf I admired him. As a dwarf I found Oghren an embbarassment, as a human he was funny as h***!

However, even now it is so obvious that Hawke is a human male warrior. You may be able to change that to a degree, but all the franchise and artwork so clearly indicates that the protagonist is a predefined person, not a player-made character. So just like in ME, it'll be cosmetic changes, with no impact on the story. Femshep, as I have also stated before, was so obvious an afterthought, that it was embarrasing in ME2. With what little time Bioware have, I doubt they'll get it better with DA2.

The first two reasons are based on facts, the third, I admit, is still speculation, and I might be proven wrong. But as the two first reasons still stand... unless some sort of miracle happens, I cannot se myself bother with this game.

Modifié par TMZuk, 13 juillet 2010 - 07:59 .

[Querne]

@ mornegroth

I wished the negative impact on Awakening WOULD have had an impact in the development of the Add On.
But, as you say, people have their opinions.

Modifié par Querne, 13 juillet 2010 - 08:00 .

[Khavos]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Saying BioWare is not based on greed is not saying they are not a business.

Saying that Bioware would like to sell as many games as possible is not saying they are greedy.

[Querne]

TMZuk wrote...

Having been thinking it over, long and hard, I've reached the conclusion that there is three main reasons why I don't expect the game to be satisfactionary to me.

The first and most important: IMO our old characters are dropped on the floor, with nothing resembling closure. So I have to start playing Hawke, with no clue what happened to my old characters, and without having had the chance to bring them to an end. I'm sorry, but I simply refusing to do that. Especially as if Bioware does this with the characters from the first game, what is to prevent them from doing the same with Hawke? With no proper ending to the first game, I refuse to play the second.

The second reason is the voice acting. First of all, I blame VA for being the main reason our old characters are discontinued. Having to pay at least six actors, male and female dwarf, elf and human, instead of two, is simply to expensive, I am certain. My second grief with voice acting is the risk that I'll dislike the actor. As I have stated before, in ME I find Mark Meer to be bland and boring. Haley is a lot better, but still she makes my toes cringe as well from time to time. (I'd rather talk about you *winces*) I like British theatrical acting far more than Hollywood acting. Others feel different about that, so no matter how it is done, for some people it is bound to be wrong.

The third reason: What really made DA a special game-experience was the Origins. They altered your perspective on the game each time you played it through. As a human noble, I detested Duncan, as a Dalish elf I admired him. As a dwarf I found Oghren an embbarassment, as a human he was funny as h***!

However, even now it is so obvious that Hawke is a human male warrior. You may be able to change that to a degree, but all the franchise and artwork so clearly indicates that the protagonist is a predefined person, not a player-made character. So just like in ME, it'll be cosmetic changes, with no impact on the story. Femshep, as I have also stated before, was so obvious an afterthought, that it was embarrasing in ME2. With what little time Bioware have, I doubt they'll get it better with DA2.

The first two reasons are based on facts, the third, I admit, is still speculation, and I might be proven wrong. But as the two first reasons still stand... unless some sort of miracle happens, I cannot se myself bother with this game.

/sign

[Jimmy Fury]

mornegroth wrote...

*sigh*
I just hope this negativity towards Bioware newest decisions wont have a real impact in the development of the game. I just hope...
This whole ranting is making me nuts. But well, it's the internet... And people sure have their opinions.

Bah this is nothing. Were you here when Return to Ostagar was first delayed? People swore left and right that Bioware had just destroyed its entire company and murdered its fanbase. There was screaming, threats of violence, grand declarations that people were never going anywhere near BioWare again, etc etc.
they aaaaall came back and downloaded it the minute it was released.
Right now it's just the change=bad reaction. People are scared and lashing out at everything they can find.