10 réponses à ce sujet

[asaiasai]

I want to be perfectly clear here i am not slamming ME or ME2 i am just going to use them as an example to try to better explain what my question concerning DA2. I apologize in advance for the wall of text that will be required to render the examples and the support needed explain my question about Hawke in DA2.

Today when i got home from work after a long night of trying to explain my concern about Hawke being a static character with the baggage all ready provided for us by the writers is not what i expect from any game carrying the torch for DAO. I started a new ME2 game with out an imported character, as the Normandy is comming apart i look over and see some random ensign standing next to me, it goes click. Who is this guy? Why do i care about this guy other than he is some random member of my crew and i am supposed to? But the biggest question i asked was where the hell is Liara. Then it dawned on me i have no back story. No depth of character. IMHO the ME series lacked the depth of character that DAO had, this point was made abundantly clear to me in the first 20 minutes of Mass Effect 2 game play.

So in order to provide some badly needed depth of character i MUST install and play ME first, then import this character into ME2 in order for any of ME2 to make sense and provide much needed depth of character in a game that lacks the same level of immersion as DAO. Who is Tali, Liara, Wrex, and why do they care about my character, but most importantly why am i supposed to care? What events bound us together?  In order to get a sense of that connection i have to go back to where it all began, to where all the connections that bind these characters to my character originate from. To a degree because of this it could be rationally stated that ME2 is nothing more than an expansion pack for ME. Regardless of the fact that you can play the game as a stand alone adventure, which is probably the only point that can be made concerning ME2 to defend it 's status as a stand alone adventure. ME2 without any benefit of the ME back story is an even more hollow adventure because with out the benefit of the previous story provided by ME Shepard and the crew are insignifigant. There is no emotional connection that can be formed to Shepard or the Squad mates, because the writers have decided that Shepard is thier character on loan to the player, by thier limiting of the options for the player to develop Shepard in thier own way. Every Shepard in ME is the same as everybody else's, because of this limiting of personal interaction between the player and Shepard.

So we can find ourselves in a similar position with DA2 with out the benefit of being able to back track to a previous game or story to add some minimal depth of character. In DA2 the warden is rendered irrelevant, which renders the wardens decisions irrelevant, which unless the writers went to great pains to provide back story and the general sense of why the hell should i care about any of this, reduces any possible personalization needed to bind the player to the PC.

Details at this time are few and far between concerning DA2 which is to be expected from any game company. It is all about the surprise, creating the buzz, and hyping the product to increase sales. I have read quite a few complaints concerning the proposed changes to DA2. Those changes do not concern me in regards to better graphics, dialog wheels vs dialog lists, dynamic combat, voice overs, etc etc etc. Those things do not make or break the game for what appears to be most of the DAO fans that i have had discussions with concerning DAO in great detail on these boards. I am willing to bet that most of us so far consider these things to be distractions from what made DAO so good, the ability of the player to feel as if thier warden was a part of them and become part of the warden.

There is an understanding that with finite resources in game design, if you get something it will only be in trade for something else, what that something else is has not been answered yet. I want to know if what i feel is most important is being traded away for these things that to me and i am sure most of the fans here will agree, are irrelevant. To me "the what" i consider of most importance is the ability to personalize my character as i was able to do in DAO but because of the writer's imposed limitations (the character is on loan to the player) were more difficult to do in the ME series. The ability to collect emotional baggage as the story progresses, the ability to decide not what my character is but who my character is. DAO provided me the freedom to create 19 and counting distinctly different wardens each with thier own emotional baggage i accumulated as the story progressed. That is not something i am willing to trade for voice overs, slick graphics, etc etc, because that is not why i play DAO. I play DAO because the story of the warden is MY story and i am the writer who pens MY masterpiece as i experience it, in a world you have provided. 

My only question is and shall remain because it is the only thing i really care about in a game any more. I do not want to experience Hawke, i want to become Hawke, i want to create a Hawke in my own image, i want a Hawke that is as personal and individual for me as my 19 wardens currently are. Wardens who are distinclty different from everybody else's on these boards because each one has a little bit of me in them. It is only by meeting this criteria and this criteria alone that the claim "spiritual successor" could be considered valid. So how about it Bioware care to answer this question? Is Hawke on loan to the player or can i stake a claim to Hawke as my own creation by being provided with the opportunities to, name the baggage, then to collect or discard that baggage as i see fit?  

Asai

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I'm pretty sure there was more than one question in all of that.

So far the only thing that looks *set* for Hawke are elements of his/her past, the surname, and (I guess) the voices.

It's too early to tell more, but until I see more of the dialogue system I've yet to decide personally if Hawke is his/her own character who will typically say and do things the PC has no control over (3rd), or my character (1st).

At the moment I'm leaning towards 3rd, purely because dialogue choices are paraphrased and I'm anal about what defines a 'true RPG experience'.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 13 juillet 2010 - 08:07 .

[moteh]

You never really created any of your wardens, they are all defined in the parameters of the game itself... however your emotional attachment as a player to the other characters is what changes the game for you in that way. If Bioware has proven one thing to me over the years, ME2 especially is that they can get me attached to characters. DAO just took it a step further, I could get attached to the group as a whole. I could see the forest and the trees to use a bit of cliche.



The biggest difference imho between ME/2 and DAO imho was the fact the world was dirty, it was real, it felt lived in... it's wasn't sterile, and all the characters had some real story behind them. Mass Effect feels disjointed, it's missing a wholeness that DAO had. The people don't talk to each other, your party is a military squad, not a group of adventurers. DAO has you as part of a group, part of the family if you will. I think that is truly what is what draws so many people to DAO, whether they know it or not.



The fact people respond to you, that they can argue with you, they can leave you, they can love you, and they can talk about you, and about each other, and you can do all of that back is what makes DA what it is. I don't think Bioware will forget that.

[Maverick827]

asaiasai wrote...

In DA2 the warden is rendered irrelevant, which renders the wardens decisions irrelevant

Entirely false.

You do, however, get an "E" for "Effort," because it looked like you were about to make a good point for a few paragraphs there.

At first, I thought you were going to talk about how to fully enjoy Mass Effect 2, one has to play Mass Effect, and speak of the downsides of serialization.  I thought you were going to draw parallels with Dragon Age 2, showing that in order to enjoy the world of Dragon Age 2, the characters, and the callbacks, one would have to play Dragon Age Origins, and how this is often a bad thing.  I thought you were going to show how allowing the player to take control of a new character was a good way to solve the issue.

But alas...

[asaiasai]

Maverick827 wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

In DA2 the warden is rendered irrelevant, which renders the wardens decisions irrelevant

Entirely false.

You do, however, get an "E" for "Effort," because it looked like you were about to make a good point for a few paragraphs there.

At first, I thought you were going to talk about how to fully enjoy Mass Effect 2, one has to play Mass Effect, and speak of the downsides of serialization.  I thought you were going to draw parallels with Dragon Age 2, showing that in order to enjoy the world of Dragon Age 2, the characters, and the callbacks, one would have to play Dragon Age Origins, and how this is often a bad thing.  I thought you were going to show how allowing the player to take control of a new character was a good way to solve the issue.

But alas...

I do apologize for not elaborating on this but i thought that it was a given that in order to enjoy ME2 one had to play ME in order to get any idea as to what is going on in the game.  To do anything other would be like reading the Fellowship of the Ring with out having read the Hobbit, sure Fellowship is a compelling story but in order to understand some details and mostly why i the reader/player should care one needs background.

Also since according to what has been released as near as i can tell the stories of DAO and DA2 overlap, as the character escapes the destruction of Lotharin which as we all know is one of the signifigant moments in DAO. So how can the warden or thier decisions be relevant when the warden has not made any yet?  

I will give you a E for effort for trying to sound so superior but you did not quite pull it off care to try again, although you might loose some sleep over it, but be my guest.  Verbally slapping smug little punks on the forums can be quite entertaining.

Asai

[SDNcN]

asaiasai wrote...

Also since according to what has been released as near as i can tell the stories of DAO and DA2 overlap, as the character escapes the destruction of Lotharin which as we all know is one of the signifigant moments in DAO. So how can the warden or thier decisions be relevant when the warden has not made any yet?  

It also takes place over ten years. So chance are there will be some effects shown or at least mentioned.

[FieryDove]

asaiasai wrote...

There is an understanding that with finite resources in game design, if you get something it will only be in trade for something else, what that something else is has not been answered yet.

But It has, everyone is getting a fully voiced PC, male and female versions.

Was this the best use of resources? In my opinion no. But from a business standpoint is it the wise thing to do.

Very short, pretty and fully voiced games are what is demanded by mainstream gamers. (Maybe not the short part but resources are limited so...)

As far as the wardens go, perhaps there will be another expansion, I think many would like to play their warden again and for those that romanced Morrigan see what happened with all that.

[Kalfear]

FieryDove wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

There is an understanding that with finite resources in game design, if you get something it will only be in trade for something else, what that something else is has not been answered yet.

But It has, everyone is getting a fully voiced PC, male and female versions.

Was this the best use of resources? In my opinion no. But from a business standpoint is it the wise thing to do.

Very short, pretty and fully voiced games are what is demanded by mainstream gamers. (Maybe not the short part but resources are limited so...)

As far as the wardens go, perhaps there will be another expansion, I think many would like to play their warden again and for those that romanced Morrigan see what happened with all that.

I want a griffon

[FieryDove]

Kalfear wrote...


I want a griffon

Hmmm, We need a DLC that goes back...200 years I think then?

[asaiasai]

SDNcN wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

Also since according to what has been released as near as i can tell the stories of DAO and DA2 overlap, as the character escapes the destruction of Lotharin which as we all know is one of the signifigant moments in DAO. So how can the warden or thier decisions be relevant when the warden has not made any yet?  

It also takes place over ten years. So chance are there will be some effects shown or at least mentioned.

I hope that this does give the player the same level of flexibility as we had in DAO in regards to dealing with the various situations in the game. In ME2 once one has decided to play as a paragon or renegade you kind of have to stick to that path, which i feel limits the ability of the player to personalize the experience. Once you start out nice you pretty much have to be nice the whole game through, so even the folks who need a slap, deserve a slap, who when slapped the slapper will get a standing ovation from the bystanders, will get a free pass because you are locked into the choice you made several game play hours ago.  I think it is still possible for Bioware to make Hawke as morally flexible as the warden is which is one of the many ways that the warden's personality was customizable by the player. The ability to have this option to inject myself into the world by deciding who my warden is going to be this time around is the only real issue i have when i heard that Hawke was a pre made character, because when i heard this i immediatly started to have ME2 flash backs, and the developers plainly saying the Shepard is thier character is quite a large dissappointment considering the flexibility i had in DAO.
 
I remain optomistic as DAO was just so ****ing good, and ME was good also for what it is, but ME is no DAO that is for sure. I think ME3 to be better would need a trip through DAO, but as i am just a lowly customer i will have to settle for what i can get.

Asai

[Tirigon]

I agree with what asai said.