302 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Gremlin]

L0ckd0wn325 wrote...

I don't really see why Bioware would half-ass the console version.

To save time and money?

[Haexpane]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

3 of the most complex and deep RPGs of all time are on CONSOLES

Vagrant Story - PSone! ancient technology, but a fantastic, deep, challenging strategic game

Demon's Souls - action combat, yet overwhelmingly deep and complex

Everquest ONline PS2 - very deep MMO runs on a console WITH NO HARD DRIVE

Hahaha, joke of there day. Nice work.

Admit it, you haven't even played those games.  Otherwise you would never post such lies

Or maybe he just disagrees with you.  And unless you've played every RPG ever made, how do you know wehther they were among the most deep and complex RPGs of all time?

I've played many of the best.
Chrono Trigger
The Witcher
Baldur's Gate 2
Fallout 1
Vagrant Story
Demon's Souls
Dragon Age
Dragon Age Awakenings
Summoner 1
Shadow Hearts
Everquest 1
Everquest OA

the list goes on and on.

Deep and complex is not an opinion, it's simply the ability to look at the features.

Whether or not you LIKE the game is an opinion. 

Complexity of the game is far less subjective

[Haexpane]

Kinthalis ThornBlade wrote...

No one is calling console players morons.

Do you really doubt that a large portion of console gamers are casual?

By virtue of being on this forum board talking about DA:O you're an outlier on the line graph that is console gamers my friend. The vast majority of the rest of console gamers are rapidly pressing the y button to skip the "talky talky" parts.

and the Vast majority of PC gamers play Farmville, Mafia Wars and Peggle

PC has 100x more casual gamers than consoles

[Haexpane]

Kinthalis ThornBlade wrote...
 s. Hell, just play any game on xbox live, and you'll hear what your average console gamer is like.

 

Wrong again. The majority of XBOX owners do NOT EVEN OWN XBL.  What you get over XBL is the MINORITY of console gamers

game/set/match

Modifié par Haexpane, 15 juillet 2010 - 09:09 .

[Haexpane]

TheMadCat wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

3 of the most complex and deep RPGs of all time are on CONSOLES

Vagrant Story - PSone! ancient technology, but a fantastic, deep, challenging strategic game

Demon's Souls - action combat, yet overwhelmingly deep and complex

Everquest ONline PS2 - very deep MMO runs on a console WITH NO HARD DRIVE

Hahaha, joke of there day. Nice work.

Admit it, you haven't even played those games.  Otherwise you would
never post such lies

I've played a bit of Demon's Soul and I've played Everquest  on the PC (Going to assume the console is at the most on par with this.) Neither of these are what I consider complex and deep, if you want complex and deep play the Wizadry series, pick up some of the Ultima games, Daggerfall and Arcanum are well above Demon's Soul.

They may be some of the most complex and deep RPG's YOU have played, but that in no way automaticly concludes they are 3 of the most complex and deep RPG's of all time.

Daggerfall is the Elder Scrolls series.   I started w/ Morrowind.  Yes, complex game.  Right on par w/ Demons Souls.

Vagrant Story is actualy more complex than Morrowind, MW is just bigger.   VS has complicated combat and weapon crafting that requires planning, trial and error.

The point being  ... there have been many complex RPGs on consoles.   People just choose to ignore them

as far as MODERN DAY gaming, most games are cross platform now. The entire argument that "console games are shallow" is just an outdated myth

[Haexpane]

Lord Gremlin wrote...
 Demon's Souls which is so popular in this thread is in fact the most hardcore and complex RPG so far if we're talking about gameplay/combat.

Personally I'm ok with Dragon Age as it is. It's an easy, casual game already (since Origins) and I honestly don't want it to go demon soulish. I appreciate deep and complex story in Bioware games and combat should not prevent me from enjoying it. That's it. 

 

The irony is Bioware themselves compared DA to Demon's Souls.  When Demon's Souls came out, BW was asked about the difficulty of DAO.  They said Nightmare mode would compare to Demon's Souls.

Personally I found DS difficult, but because it is real time and has no dice rolls, using smart tactics can get you the win.  The trick is patience.

In that case, it is not at all like DAO which still has some sort of dice roll, meaning you can get lucky or some of the outcomes are not in your hands.

Demon's Souls was difficult, but IMO the most difficult part was memorizing the levels because there is no map, no waypoints, no save points, no help, no faire, etc...

Much of the complexity was min/maxing, and planning on what gear to use and how to use it.  It was all about strategy.  Once you can execute a well planned strategy, you can clear entire levels without ever taking a hit

Demon's Souls is never cheap and never cheats.  You just have to use the right tactics.

[Sneelonz]

Gambient wrote...

Noobius_Maximo wrote...

Wait for more info before jumping to conclusions, mmkay?

[TheMadCat]

Haexpane wrote...

Daggerfall is the Elder Scrolls series.   I started w/ Morrowind.  Yes, complex game.  Right on par w/ Demons Souls.

Vagrant Story is actualy more complex than Morrowind, MW is just bigger.   VS has complicated combat and weapon crafting that requires planning, trial and error.

The point being  ... there have been many complex RPGs on consoles.   People just choose to ignore them

as far as MODERN DAY gaming, most games are cross platform now. The entire argument that "console games are shallow" is just an outdated myth

Daggerfall was a bit more complex then Morrowind, it's kind of been the Bethesda trait to "dumb down" as they progress their ES games.

Anyways, as far as the myth goes, I don't know. I do agree the notion is typically overplayed and comes out of ignorance. Personally I think all games on every platform have been "dumbed down" greatly over the years as a necessary step to appeal to a broader audience and shore up these disgustingly over-bloated development and advertising budgets. So people here I don't really think have a right to make such a claim seeing as the games they typically play on the PC are no different then there console brethren.

At the same time though there are still a lot of fairly successful niche developers and publishers out there for the PC even in these modern times, you don't really have a Paradox or a Matrix Games, you don't have any true simulation games on the consoles. So to a degree I think the myth that console games are shallow is true, but it's just as shallow on the PC with the few exceptions aside. I guess it all depends on if one is a true fan of those exceptions such as myself, though I try not to go around demeaning consoles. Sometimes one slips out though,

Modifié par TheMadCat, 15 juillet 2010 - 09:58 .

[L0ckd0wn325]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

L0ckd0wn325 wrote...

I don't really see why Bioware would half-ass the console version.

To save time and money?

Well then wouldn't they half-ass the PC then?  Seems only fair.  Bioware likes each system equally.

[Lintanis]

L0ckd0wn325 wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

L0ckd0wn325 wrote...

I don't really see why Bioware would half-ass the console version.

To save time and money?

Well then wouldn't they half-ass the PC then?  Seems only fair.  Bioware likes each system equally.

Bioware admitted that they made mistakes over the console versions of DA:O, thats why this time they are doing the console versions first they transferring over to the PC version 

[DPB]

Lintanis wrote...

Bioware admitted that they made mistakes over the console versions of DA:O, thats why this time they are doing the console versions first they transferring over to the PC version 

No, they said they were doing all versions simultaneously.

[Ladybright]

asaiasai wrote...

So far this machine has crushed everything i have thrown at it except the little tweaker at my lan group who has an ATI 5970 4gb video card with pretty much the same stuff i have. I fully admit that i went completely over board with this box, but my point still is if game developers do not make spending this amount of money worth while there is no point to do so, and that will be a sad day for the industry.

It think you just answered your own statement there, since most games don't need a $2500 rig.

I have no problems with developers toning down software and the gaming experience for the lesser hardware, but i have a problem when they tone down my experience because some folks can not play at the same level as i can.

This sentence makes no sense. You have no problem with devs toning down experience, but you have a problem with devs toning down experience? Since many games are cross-platform, how exactly would devs tone down everyone else's experience but yours?

I drive a Jeep and i do not expect it to be as fast as a Ferrari, but if i owned a Ferrari and i was made to tone it down to the Jeep level,  i feel the Ferrari owner has a legitimate complaint. To disagree is to let your envy show.
Asai

Or maybe the Ferrari owner is just swimming in entitlement?

From what I understand, because you spent $2500 dollars on a gaming rig, devs are obligated to make games to the standard implied by such an expensive machine?

How would this business model ever be economically viable? Targeting games at the tiny (as relative to the rest of the market) crowd that shells out thousands on a single machine cuts out a lot of people who might otherwise have bought the game had it not been meant for Martian supercomputers.

[Grommash94]

The industry will continue to make games that look nice AND do not demand a great machine. The games that don't do both to an EXTENT, don't do so well in the long term imo.

[Waage25]

Have fun with your nerfed version.

[Haexpane]

TheMadCat wrote...

  I do agree the notion is typically overplayed and comes out of ignorance. Personally I think all games on every platform have been "dumbed down" greatly over the years as a necessary step to appeal to a broader audience and shore up these disgustingly over-bloated development and advertising budgets

At the same time though there are still a lot of fairly successful niche developers and publishers out there for the PC even in these modern times, you don't really have a Paradox or a Matrix Games, you don't have any true simulation games on the consoles. So to a degree I think the myth that console games are shallow is true, but it's just as shallow on the PC with the few exceptions aside. I guess it all depends on if one is a true fan of those exceptions such as myself, though I try not to go around demeaning consoles. Sometimes one slips out though,

I agree, we can agree to agree.

Console licensing and overly radical right wing rules lock out most indie devs.  Even XBLA Indie is a far cry from the true freedom of PCs.

Consoles are just better at blocking piracy

[Ladybright]

I really wish the indie section of XBL was as good and extensive as the indie market on PCs. It's something I've been looking to get into (luckily most indie games run on my laptop), and I think more non-mainstream developers would be a breath of fresh air for the 360.

[Grommash94]

scyphozoa wrote...
My guess is anything done to make combat more interactive and twitch will be the superior mechanic.

I don't think they will take it THAT far. It wouldn't really work that well with party based combat.

[Monstruo696]

Haexpane wrote...

The irony is Bioware themselves compared DA to Demon's Souls.  When Demon's Souls came out, BW was asked about the difficulty of DAO.  They said Nightmare mode would compare to Demon's Souls.

Source.

Until then (and so far) anything that comes out of your mouth is plain, old, bull****.

[MarchWaltz]

Kinthalis ThornBlade wrote...

Larryboy_Dragon wrote...

I'm a dedicated 360 player who bailed out of pc gaming due to ballooning costs of hardware,

When did you leave PC gaming then? the 90's?

PC hardware is cheap. Most people only need a $100 video card to play games at higher resolution and better graphics detail than any console. And even those that want to buy an entirely new modern gaming PC rig, can do so for under $600 (And it's not just a glorified video game box ). You're way out of the game if you still think PC gaming is costly.

Hell, I own a very high end gaming PC (hooked up to a 50" HDTV), but I've more than made up the cost on the money I've saved on games thanks to sales on Steam, direct 2 drive and impulse. I've never owned so may games as I do today, and on the cheap.

As for the more actiony, dumbed down gaming, what exactly do you expect?

Why would consoles seek to mimic PC gaming? They are limited by a controller and by a much more casual user base.

Why are you so surprised by this?

Here's a revelation for you:

You want PC gaming? Game on your PC. 

Newegg.com

[Tirigon]

asaiasai wrote...
This is what i bought and it is all top of the line, i do this because once i close the case i do not want to have to fool with the machine again gor 24 to 30 months.

Coolermaster 840 atcs aluminum full tower case
Asus P6X58d premuim main board
12 gb Kingston hyper X 1333mhz ram (3 ,4 gb sticks)
Kingston 64gb Solid State Drive where i installed a fresh copy of Win 7 proffessional
Intel i7 930 2.8 cpu
Western Digital 1tb 7200 rpm 64mb cache hard drive (sata 6.0
Corsair 1200 watt single rail power supply
a generic 20 dollar dvd r/rw lite on i think
Asus GTX 480 (fermi) thinking about a second one in SLI

I admit, you got a great machine there.
Seems PCs in America are cheaper, though. In Germany, I saw PCs that were worse than this for 3000€ = 4500

The exchange rate for dollars to Euros is roughly 1.5 to one so you
spent close to 900 American for your pc. But i will guarantee this that i
see thngs in my game that you do not even know exist. I guarantee that
my game plays better, loads faster, looks better, and it is a matter of
what i important to you and what you can afford.

I fully admit that i went completely over board with this box, but my point still is if game developers do not make spending this amount of money worth while there is no point to do so, and that will be a sad day for the industry. I have no problems with developers toning down software and the gaming experience for the lesser hardware, but i have a problem when they tone down my experience because some folks can not play at the same level as i can. I drive a Jeep and i do not expect it to be as fast as a Ferrari, but if i owned a Ferrari and i was made to tone it down to the Jeep level,  i feel the Ferrari owner has a legitimate complaint. To disagree is to let your envy show.
Asai

The problem is that all current games aren´t build for so much Hardware. Take Ram, for example: I have NEVER seen a game that requires more than 3 gb - that means, my 6gb are more than enough. 12 like you have seems a waste.
An analogy: Imagine you give a party for 30 people. Buying food for 40, to be on the safe side, might be wise. Buying food for 120 is useless, because you WILL NOT need it, no matter how much your guests eat.
That´s what you did with your PC.

Of course, it´s a matter of when you want to buy a new one. Yours will last for years without needing an upgrade, mine probably won´t.

For me that´s ok though. I am going to start studying in a few months so I don´t even know where I will live in 2 years and whether I will have time and money to play PC games. If I don´t have, I don´t need a PC that will be required to play in more than 2 years but not now.
If I do, I rather just buy a new PC that will, by then, cost only about a third of what you paid.

[Monstruo696]

Tirigon wrote...

I admit, you got a great machine there.
Seems PCs in America are cheaper, though. In Germany, I saw PCs that were worse than this for 3000€ = 4500

Look, no offense but Germany and Australia are some of the most bass-awkward countries in the Western Hemisphere with Britain following right behind you.  The laws on those countries regarding censorship, violence, and gaming borderline on authoritarian, so I'm not surprised that they have problems with hardware prices.

Either way you're probably going to get a version with evil clowns replacing darkspawn and if you stab someone in a sequence they'll get up right away and you'll joke about it and discuss the weather over a cup of tea.

Modifié par Monstruo696, 16 juillet 2010 - 04:49 .

[Haexpane]

Monstruo696 wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

The irony is Bioware themselves compared DA to Demon's Souls.  When Demon's Souls came out, BW was asked about the difficulty of DAO.  They said Nightmare mode would compare to Demon's Souls.

Source.

Until then (and so far) anything that comes out of your mouth is plain, old, bull****.

Way to be an accusatory flaming troll kid.   I don't give a rats ass what you believe.  but accusing me of lying is absolutely out of line.

Is everything on these boards sourced?  No. When I dig up the old news bit w/ this quote, then what?  What would that change?

Bioware stated that on the harder difficulty settings DAO would compare w/ Demon's Souls.  I find it absurd that you think this is "Bull**"  as it's a totally unimportant comparison.

How about when I link the source you eat your own foot?

[Haexpane]

Still looking but I found part of one relevant interview w/ BW talking about how great Demon's Souls is





Read em and weep "Demon's Souls ....one of the most innovative RPGs/games in ages" - BIOWARE

-----------------------------------------------------------

IG: Yeah, and, of course, he mentioned the BioWare games. Whether it's BioWare, or Lionhead, or Bethesda, the Western RPG makers really seem to have stolen the thunder of the Japanese developers. I’m just curious about what your thoughts are on the Japanese RPGs and what’s going on between East versus West.



Greg Zeschuk: Well, it’s interesting. I think in the past year we saw a very interesting counterpoint to that argument, which was Demon’s Souls. That title was, in my mind, probably one of the most innovative RPGs/games in ages. So, there’s still flashes of brilliance, obviously, and I think… I haven’t played Final Fantasy XIII yet, but obviously I hear a lot of how they’ve gone a very different direction than one they’ve traditionally gone: much more streamlined, which is interesting.

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[Haexpane]

Gah it's harder than it should be to find 5 month old interviews w/ the way google caches stuff. Getting close. More Bioware loves Demon's Souls quotes



-----------------------------

Sometimes I think we’re pampering gamers too much," says Mass Effect 2 producer Adrien Cho. "Just recently, a game like Demon’s Souls is fantastic because when you die, and you fail, it’s not because the game was cheap it’s usually because you didn’t do something properly.

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