120 réponses à ce sujet

[Angelsdawn]

Fraq Hound wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

I like video games. I own a decent gaming PC and an Xbox 360. I see no reason to crap on either. Some game are better on one, some on the other. It's really that simple.

This.

You can't hate on Bioware for going where the money is. More people play games on Consoles nowadays; Then factor in all the pirating that takes place on the PC, it's not rocket science.

The first couple pages of this thread just makes you PC fanatics look like bitter A-holes and it's hard to sympathize with a bitter A-hole. Also it's made this thread pointless.

Dev's aren't gonna waste their time with console vs PC argument threads.

I don't blame them either. Bioware is sensible enough I think this time around to design a combat system that would fit both platforms equally. What most people are afraid of is that it will be oversimplified to benefit the console players.

UndercoverDoctor wrote...

PC elitists are very annoying people who add nothing to discussion.

Oh the irony.

[Hell Mutant]

Hell Mutant wrote...

MonkeyKaboom wrote...

I
fail to see how anyone can possibly think DA as being tactical. It
required absolutely no thought process in the least. There is nothing
at all engaging about running around a circle room with an ogre chasing
you while a retarded AI has the 3 other rejects whittling it down with
their swords hopefully before it charge stomps you into nothingness.
 

honestly, that's your fault for kiting to get through a battle.

For certain battles, you may have to change the tactics for your party beforehand to prepare, or if you are having a problem with the Ogre grabbing and killing you, switch to your mage and cast stonefist to get him to drop you.

It's not the game's fault that you don't use your available resources and use cheap tactics like kiting.

Modifié par Hell Mutant, 10 août 2010 - 10:42 .

[andar91]

MonkeyKaboom wrote...

I fail to see how anyone can possibly think DA as being tactical. It required absolutely no thought process in the least. There is nothing at all engaging about running around a circle room with an ogre chasing you while a retarded AI has the 3 other rejects whittling it down with their swords hopefully before it charge stomps you into nothingness.

Want to make DA tactical?  Throw in more barriers; columns in buildings, trees and boulders outside, that must be navigated around and can be used to deflect or obstruct enemy attacks. Throw in alternating levels of terrain and actually make it matter. Attacking from higher ground should yield more damage to the target. Make it at a level that will significantly alter the outcome of battle so people don't just faceroll through it anyways. Throw in mud and marshland that penalizes heavy armor wearers. Add in structure points to the battlegrounds that can be exploited. A fireball or explosive trap to trigger a rock slide on enemies, ice spells to temporarily freeze over areas of water to allow for flanking or sneak attacks and such. Let us grease bomb a frozen lake to control enemies as they rush over and fireblast it to set up a grease fire as they're floundering to their feet only to have the ice melt beneath them. Then throw up a blizzard over the hole to seal it so they slowly die under a sheet of ice staring at your feet from below as you go on your marry way. Just keep it limited to things that won't effect your ability to progress through a zone. Let us spring trap or mind blast baddies off a bridge....

That's using tactics.

I find DA:O very tactical and hope that DA2 continues with that.  These examples you've provided would be cool, but they won't be able to do things on that kind of scale for years yet.  Technically, I just don't think it's possible.

[MonkeyKaboom]

Hell Mutant wrote...
honestly, that's your fault for kiting to get through a battle.

As opposed to say, standing still in the middle of a crappy designed open room and just trade blows repeatedly with even less actual involvement?  Yeah because auto attack is just so damn fun!! 

But hey if you want to sit in copy and pasted hallway #347 and let an invisible magic set of dice decide all the combat for you then have at it. 

[Angelsdawn]

Hell Mutant wrote...

Hell Mutant wrote...

MonkeyKaboom wrote...

I
fail to see how anyone can possibly think DA as being tactical. It
required absolutely no thought process in the least. There is nothing
at all engaging about running around a circle room with an ogre chasing
you while a retarded AI has the 3 other rejects whittling it down with
their swords hopefully before it charge stomps you into nothingness.
 

honestly, that's your fault for kiting to get through a battle.

For certain battles, you may have to change the tactics for your party beforehand to prepare, or if you are having a problem with the Ogre grabbing and killing you, switch to your mage and cast stonefist to get him to drop you.

It's not the game's fault that you don't use your available resources and use cheap tactics like kiting.

There are traps, slow poisons, bombs, runes, combat tactics, strategic positions and you can pick a certain group comp. for specific situations. Makes the game more enjoyable if you get creative. Kiting is no fun and you would think that on nightmare you would realize kiting things all the time is just a waste at least half way through the game, but I guess not.

[Hell Mutant]

monkey, see my post above

[Hell Mutant]

indeed, angelsdawn!

[MonkeyKaboom]

andar91 wrote...

MonkeyKaboom wrote...

I fail to see how anyone can possibly think DA as being tactical. It required absolutely no thought process in the least. There is nothing at all engaging about running around a circle room with an ogre chasing you while a retarded AI has the 3 other rejects whittling it down with their swords hopefully before it charge stomps you into nothingness.

Want to make DA tactical?  Throw in more barriers; columns in buildings, trees and boulders outside, that must be navigated around and can be used to deflect or obstruct enemy attacks. Throw in alternating levels of terrain and actually make it matter. Attacking from higher ground should yield more damage to the target. Make it at a level that will significantly alter the outcome of battle so people don't just faceroll through it anyways. Throw in mud and marshland that penalizes heavy armor wearers. Add in structure points to the battlegrounds that can be exploited. A fireball or explosive trap to trigger a rock slide on enemies, ice spells to temporarily freeze over areas of water to allow for flanking or sneak attacks and such. Let us grease bomb a frozen lake to control enemies as they rush over and fireblast it to set up a grease fire as they're floundering to their feet only to have the ice melt beneath them. Then throw up a blizzard over the hole to seal it so they slowly die under a sheet of ice staring at your feet from below as you go on your marry way. Just keep it limited to things that won't effect your ability to progress through a zone. Let us spring trap or mind blast baddies off a bridge....

That's using tactics.

I find DA:O very tactical and hope that DA2 continues with that.  These examples you've provided would be cool, but they won't be able to do things on that kind of scale for years yet.  Technically, I just don't think it's possible.

Nonsense, Star Wars: TFU has a number of ways you can use the environment against your enemies.  Not to the extent above, but its a start.  It just means designers are actually going to have to you know...design.  If I can lift or throw enemies off ledges and buildings in ME then this shouldn't be that much of a leap.

[Hell Mutant]

The tactics are just different than what you are looking for...but the tactics are still there, you just aren't using them. Honestly, I find ME to be WAY less tactical than DAO, I can't think of any ME1 or 2 battles that require much forethought.

[FedericoV]

Am I the only one who thinks that combat (while remaining tactical and so on) could be improved even in the PC version of DA:O? Do you think that it was perfect and brilliant on the PC and that it does need some kind of revision in many departments?

Modifié par FedericoV, 10 août 2010 - 10:56 .

[MonkeyKaboom]

Angelsdawn wrote...
There are traps, slow poisons, bombs, runes, combat tactics, strategic positions and you can pick a certain group comp. for specific situations. Makes the game more enjoyable if you get creative. Kiting is no fun and you would think that on nightmare you would realize kiting things all the time is just a waste at least half way through the game, but I guess not.

All of which can be relegated do to crappy AI or simply ignored.  With the exception of maybe balms and of course healing pots you can pretty much do away with herbalism and traps/bombs do so little effect they can be forgotten really.

There's lots of things that CAN be done.  Unfortunately 90% of it is of little value and only creates the illusion of depth.  Its not designed to encourage diversity at all....

[Hell Mutant]

I'm definitely up for more action, while retaining the tactical side. I actually like what I am hearing about DA2 so far (for the PC).

[Hell Mutant]

MonkeyKaboom wrote...

Angelsdawn wrote...
There are traps, slow poisons, bombs, runes, combat tactics, strategic positions and you can pick a certain group comp. for specific situations. Makes the game more enjoyable if you get creative. Kiting is no fun and you would think that on nightmare you would realize kiting things all the time is just a waste at least half way through the game, but I guess not.

All of which can be relegated do to crappy AI or simply ignored.  With the exception of maybe balms and of course healing pots you can pretty much do away with herbalism and traps/bombs do so little effect they can be forgotten really.

There's lots of things that CAN be done.  Unfortunately 90% of it is of little value and only creates the illusion of depth.  Its not designed to encourage diversity at all....

Again, this goes back to the boring gameplay being your fault and you not using your available resources. Kiting and spamming potions through the game is boring and you might as well be playing Contra using up up down down left right left right B A start

Modifié par Hell Mutant, 10 août 2010 - 11:01 .

[Angelsdawn]

FedericoV wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks that combat (while remaining tactical and so on) could be improved even in the PC version of DA:O? Do you think that it was perfect and brilliant on the PC and that it does need some kind of revision in many departments?

Some stuff can be added sure to make it even more interesting but I hate that there are many people who resorted to just charging in, kiting enemies or even just toning down the difficulty and then they come on here to complain on how boring it is. 

I suppose a comprehensive list of things that would vastly improve the combat would be:

-More environmental factors to consider, as quoted a few posts above
-more spell combos and varying melee animations.
-force the player to use all the resources at their disposal in the harder fights, not just make it an option
-make specific classes adept at killing only a few types of enemies, making all party members useful at some point in the game so they all get fresh air out of the camp.

could think of more but these are the basics i'd like to see.

Modifié par Angelsdawn, 10 août 2010 - 11:04 .

[B3taMaxxx]

Hell Mutant wrote...
Again, this goes back to the boring gameplay being your fault and you not using your available resources. Kiting and spamming potions through the game is boring and you might as well be playing Contra using up up down down left right left right B A start

 Agreed. Those who didn't utilize the tactics command missed out on all the fun and possibilities of. Musta felt like a different game.

[FedericoV]

Angelsdawn wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks that combat (while remaining tactical and so on) could be improved even in the PC version of DA:O? Do you think that it was perfect and brilliant on the PC and that it does need some kind of revision in many departments?

Some stuff can be added sure to make it even more interesting but I hate that there are many people who resorted to just charging in, kiting enemies or even just toning down the difficulty and then they come on here to complain on how boring it is. 

I suppose a comprehensive list of things that would vastly improve the combat would be:

-More environmental factors to consider, as quoted a few posts above
-more spell combos and varying melee animations.
-force the player to use all the resources at their disposal in the harder fights, not just make it an option
-make specific classes adept at killing only a few types of enemies, making all party members useful at some point in the game so they all get fresh air out of the camp.

could think of more but these are the basics i'd like to see.

I would add:

- Revised mana/stamina system so there is no more all that need of potions (potions should only be used in the harder fights and they should be rare, imho).
- Revised cooldown system so the combact could be played without pausing every half-second (or making tactics more intuitive and responsive to context... wich I find very hard to make).
- Revised skill system. Sometimes less is more. All those unique powers with unique effects are really needed? I would prefer a shorter but more customizable list of skills.
- Less convoluted mechanics that adds nothing to the game and finish to obliterate the effect of each other, like armor penetration, damage and speed of weapons.
- More diversity in enemy and enemy behaviour. Less filler battle and more interesting ones.
- Less junk loot but more interesting loot, especially on boss drops.
- A clearer presentation of combat mechanics and the effect of each skill/attribute/value present in the game, if not in the manual at least in the codex.

Modifié par FedericoV, 10 août 2010 - 11:21 .

[Hell Mutant]

B3taMaxxx wrote...

Hell Mutant wrote...
...snip....

 Agreed.
Those who didn't utilize the tactics command missed out on all the fun
and possibilities of. Musta felt like a different game.

Exactly, it can barely even be called a game at that point.

Modifié par Hell Mutant, 10 août 2010 - 11:21 .

[CptSkull]

Guns wrote...

I can honestly say Dragon Age had the worst combat system out of any rpg I've ever played. It was like trying to play KotOR like Fable. Speaking of KotOR, I hope that's what they change the combat to.

http://www.maniacwor...now-dumber.html

[Damusique]

Hell Mutant wrote...

B3taMaxxx wrote...

Hell Mutant wrote...
...snip....

 Agreed.
Those who didn't utilize the tactics command missed out on all the fun
and possibilities of. Musta felt like a different game.

Exactly, it can barely even be called a game at that point.

Meh I played the whole game with disabled tactics on everyone and just paused a fair bit and controlled all my party...couldn't stand the AI doing something it shouldn't (even if I specfied its tactics!), and I still really enjoyed the game. Point is people like to play differently.

On topic, I dont know if by adopting the KotOR combat system he means the method of selecting abilities in combat, or if he means the BTS mechanics. If the former, than possibly yes for console (people say console was really bad, never played it myself but KotOR was enjoyable for me on XBOX) and definitely no for PC . If the latter than I could hardly tell you the difference lol, both fairly good (KotOR was based on D&D and DA: Origins was something Bioware made themselves I think...as I said barely know).

[wwwwowwww]

eh, i thought it was fine, and i've definately seen worse

[asaiasai]

My understanding is the combat system for the consoles is going to be dumbed down because lets face it, they have to because of the limited capabilities of the console hardware and controller. What DID suprise me is that they are going to allow the PC version to be more dynamic combat system as it should be because the PC is a more capable gaming platform among other things.



The combat system in DAO for the PC was fine i had no problem with it, as it was/is similar enough to World of Warcraft that after playing WoW for as long as i did it made perfect sense. Should the console version of combat, game play mechanics, and graphics be less than the PC? You betcha because console or PC is a choice, as such each has thier own negatives associated. Consoles are limited in thier capabilities but cheaper, PCs are not limited by hardware but limited by thier cost, but if you make either choice you should have to deal with the consequences of what is clearly YOUR decision.



When i hear Bioware speak about "dynamic systems" i immediatly think dumbed down because the consoles are dragging the PC gaming experience down to thier incapable levels. Much to my suprise it seems from what i have heard that this is not the case and the combat systems will different by platform PC being more in depth, to which i yelled woohoo and danced a jig. Sorry about your luck is all i can say. Toss the toy, buy a tool or suffer the consequences of YOUR decision, in either case i do not see a problem.



Asai