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[Last Darkness]

Bahanix wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Bahanix wrote...

Absolutely Last Darkness. I still haven't decided on exactly how I'm going to do the build yet; this debate has a lot of info to consider. I appreciate all the input.

I suggest Duelest/Ranger at first, its easier to play as and very viable. You dont always have to position yourself optimaly and such and can just duke it out and rely on stuns and your sweet duelest 100% crit rate for like 15 seconds ability.  Unless you want to use wolf or bear for looks, Spider can often be a better choice due to its ability to web for a extra crowd control and giving you an extra ability where you can do automatic crits.
Put a Paralysis rune in each weapon and really try and use stun poisons and youll be fine. Also keep in mind having someone who can use herbalism to craft Swift salves will help too since they stack with momentum. Also to conserve points you only need 3 Herbalism on one character to craft Swift Salve and most the useful stuff, same thing with poison. You only need Poison making  3 to craft the best stun poison.(Concentrated Crow Poison - Deals 6 nature damage, with a 15% chance of causing a 7 s stun, per hit.
This effect cannot be applied over itself.)
You only need poison 1 on your main character to use poisons, so if you train leilana or zevran to poison 3 they can craft it for you. This setup lets you deal critical damage as much as possible I would think fo the simplest effort. Also dont forget if you have a mage in the party try and get "Paralyze" from the entropy tree. Setup a tactic for that mage that goes something like. "Target of Warden - Cast Paralyze" So that they will always cast that spell on who your targeting so you can get even more free hits of critical damage.

I have never really used Herbalism or Poison-making in any playthrough. Of course, out of the 4 characters I've beat the game with, only 1 could have used it. That was a Rogue Archer. All other games have been Arcane Warriors (love that class). I think that this could be a good time as any to try those skills.

Any suggestions on race? I was thinking City Elf for Fang later on or a Dwarf Noble for 100 soverigns after the origin. (at least that's what I've read anyway. Never completed that quest that way).

Fang is allright, but requires you to be at the end of the game to get and have to do a certain series of events in your Origen and when you return to the Alienage at the end of the game.  Theres better options.
I highly suggest a Dwarf Noble, it has a intresting storyline, excellent stats. Just get used to being shorter then everyone else and know if you want to be a "Good" guy when you get back to Orzamaar you have to Destroy the Anvil and make Bhelen King despite your personal grievances against him hes the best option for a good outcome. Make Harromont King and Side with Branka, and help brother Burkle for the worst possible outcome for the dwarves.


As for Random70 and Soteria,  *Sigh* Im not going to argue with either of you anymore as your not worth my time. Your ignoring what im saying, jumping to conclusions and trying to argue for arguments sake.  Either of you have yet to prove to me what i asked for, enough said.

[soteria]

As I said before, I'm not even sure what your criteria are. You've been pretty vague about what you want, dismissing rather than addressing the relevant data. All you've given us is your theory, without providing any kind of numbers to back it up. For one so unwilling to do even a minimal amount of research, you're very quick to dismiss others' hard work--without even explaining what's wrong with it, beyond sniffing derisively and saying, "It's wrong."

Besides, in a normal discussion, wouldn't it be your place to provide evidence in support of your theory, rather than our place to disprove it?

Modifié par soteria, 21 juillet 2010 - 09:51 .

[Freely]

Apologies to the original poster as this is off topic to the original question.

In the scientific community, its generally regarded as the person making the claim to prove it (or even disprove their claim, hence why scientists will use null hypotheses -  so they make a claim and then objectively critique it). Their claim won't be accepted until it has been proven and even then it can take years to change the minds of other.

So, asking someone to prove their claim and once given proof saying that their claim is wrong without providing any evidence of your own is absolute nonsense. The person could keep claiming the sky is blue while providing evidence and the other person can keep saying its not, but at what point do we decide that there should be some onus on the counter claimee to prove the sky isn't blue?

Perhaps some of us should look up the term "burden of proof". Some have presented their evidence. Might be time others to step up?

I wish I hadn't lent out a Derren Brown book, because although I could go into details about scientific burden of proof verses leaps of faith, he put it quite well.

Modifié par Freely, 21 juillet 2010 - 10:18 .

[beancounter501]

Random70 wrote...
Now apply double Haste (-.5 sec, maximum speed increase).
The Maul now has a swing time of 2.05 seconds, hitting 1.95 times for 277.25 damage in 4 seconds.
The Dagger build now has an ultra-fast .5 second swing time and is hitting eight times for 522.32 in four seconds, an advantage of 88%

Minor point - haste is a percent modifier - not a flat rate.  So a double hasted Maul would have an attack speed of 2.55 * .5 = which would be 3.14 attacks for 446 unbuffed dmg.  It still looses but not as bad.  Second minor point, the stat distribution for the maul test subject is very poor.  No reason to have a 30 base dex.

Probably a better test would be with a S&S type backstabber who would have a base attack speed of around .9 when double hasted.

Also, I notice you did not have as much crit enhancing gear which hurts the Maul character more then the dagger char since he is pulling more dmg from attributes.

Now, have you actually counted the number of attacks you can have during the 4 second duration of dirty fighting?  I have always been a little skeptical of that .5 dagger attack speed.  Just never bothered to test it.

[soteria]

I'm still wondering what the point is of calculating haste/double haste at all. It buffs all builds equally, if we're just looking at auto-attack. Haste by itself is worse than momentum, but if we're looking at double haste, then the dual-wielder should be using that as well. In terms of attack speed, the dual-wielder should always be equal to or better than the alternatives, right?

[beancounter501]

I agree with you on the haste and double haste in number crunching. But if you throw that out you also have to toss out momentum.

In terms of attack speed the dual weld will always be in the lead because his base attack speed is 1.5. The S&S is 2 and 2 Hand is 2.5

On some level I think a higher attack speed hits a point of diminishing returns in actual game play. Sure DoT calculations are nice, but there just are very few instances where it matters. If dual daggers kills something in 1.5 seconds and dual big weapons kills the samething in 2 seconds, but both guys have to spend 2 to 3 seconds to get into position for the next backstab - the DoT does not make that much of a difference.

Edit: I think a far better example would be in game testing.  Use dirty fighting and see how much damage the builds can actually do in the short time.  I may have to do that this afternoon.

Modifié par beancounter501, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:06 .

[beancounter501]

As is suspected the attack times in game play do not match the theory.

All attacks were started by dirty fighting. I used Sigrum from Awakening, but I do not think that makes a difference. I counted the number of attacks I could get in before the target woke up and started attacking me. I used a standard Chrildren Hatchling for the test and fairly weak daggers to make sure I did not kill em first.

Dual Big Weapons + Momentum: 3 Attacks
Dual Big Weapons + Double Haste: 4 Attacks (Should have been 5)
Dual Daggers + Momentum: 4 Attacks (Should have been 5)
Dual Daggers + Doube Haste: 5 Attacks (Should have been 8)

Edit
S&S + Double Haste: Sometimes 3 sometimes 4
2 Hand + Double Haste: 3
Sword + Dagger + Momentum: 4 Attacks

I welcome anyone else to test it out and please post if you have different results. But it appears the attack timing is not nearly as clear cut. It looks like there is hard animation limitations in place.

Modifié par beancounter501, 22 juillet 2010 - 05:50 .

[soteria]

I've actually heard of this before. Some make the claim that the damage is still dealt, even though the game can't show that many animations in such a short time. I guess the way to test that would be to double haste a dagger build and backstab a target with known hp to death, comparing the damage dealt to how much hp the enemy has to see if everything is accounted for.

[beancounter501]

^^ Since I used the same target for the start of every test, I feel pretty comfortable that there are not invisible backstabs occuring. Besides the main combat scripts are full of comments about syncing with the animations. That and the engine signals the main scripts when an attack occurs. One thing I have learned is the engine will trump the scripts.



But then you know I can do that test of yours! Should not be too much trouble. Should have something latter on tonight.

[soteria]

Ah, maybe I'm confusing the animation being displayed with the combat text being displayed. This brief video is what I was thinking of. Only every other attack's damage is shown.

The sword/dagger results are interesting.  I've long maintained that it's a stronger build than people give it credit for--seems like most people just see dagger/dagger and sword/axe and nothing in between.

Modifié par soteria, 23 juillet 2010 - 12:17 .

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...
Minor point - haste is a percent modifier - not a flat rate.  So a double hasted Maul would have an attack speed of 2.55 * .5 = which would be 3.14 attacks for 446 unbuffed dmg.  It still looses but not as bad. 

I got my numbers from the 'combat mechanics' section of wiki...the way they have the numbers listed it appears as though it's a flat modifier but after some checking it seems that only ranged attacks use a flat modifier and melee does indeed use a percentage. It doesn't change the final ranking, however - just tightens up the field a bit.

beancounter501 wrote...
Second minor point, the stat distribution for the maul test subject is very poor.  No reason to have a 30 base dex.

As I mentioned previously, this was a quickie as I'm not very interested in analyzing crappy Rogue builds. All I was looking for were some Backstab numbers to base the scaling off of. Adding more STR would help the Maul numbers...but not enough to bring it out of the cellar. If asked to throw a dart at it, I would say that unbuffed S/S would be ~ equal to a non-momentum dual large...and fall further behind with each buff added.

beancounter501 wrote...
Now, have you actually counted the number of attacks you can have during the 4 second duration of dirty fighting?  I have always been a little skeptical of that .5 dagger attack speed.  Just never bothered to test it.

I don't have time to test (and won't for several days) but I think your attacks / Dirty Fighting numbers are off because you don't actually get a full 4 seconds of attack time. Watch the animation...after the stun the character 'poses' for ~ 1 second before attacking

[beancounter501]

Ran some more testing last night and I found some interesting things.  I inserted a couple of lines of code into the main scripts that would print off the system time to the log file whenever a character made a backstab.  This way I could get the exact attack timing interval.  The time was down to a thousandth of a second.

First Random70 is right about dirty fighting you only get 3 seconds, not 4.  Even though I imagine you could break the pose my moving to pull in an extra half second.  Second, the attack intervals are actually quite close to the theory.  The key word there is close.  The times could actual vary from dead on to lagging by .05 seconds.  And the lag picks up when there is lots of action going on.  Most of my testing was done where only the rogue was attacking, and I would say the lag could pick up a lot more if the whole party was attacking and spell effects were going off.  This hurts the high speed attacker a lot and could easily result in losing attacks.  For instance over 7 seconds a Dual Dagger momentum rogue would most likely lose an attack.

The number of backstabs I posted above are pretty deadon.  Even though I could sometimes get 6 attacks using dual daggers. 

One interesting thing to keep in mind is how the game implements an attack.  First, the game calculates the hit and damage(including if the attack was a backstab), then plays the animation and then applies the damage to the target.  This can result in slower swing weapons converting an extra attack into a backstab.  For instance, in my tests a double haste 2 Hand Rogue could always get three backstabs off Dirty Fighting.  Even though the attack interval was around 1.25 seconds and the time of Dirty Fighting was only 3 seconds.  He should have only gotten two backstabs.  The game was calculating the third attack as a backstab, even though the stun for Dirty Fighting wore off during the actual attack animation.  I also saw this occuring when welding Dual Swords, the very last attack was calculated as a backstab and the stun would expire during the attack animation.

So what does that mean in terms of gamplay?  If you rely on timed stuns from Dirty Fighting / Riptose / Paralyze Runes / Poisons then the non dual dagger rogue has a good chance to convert an extra attack into a backstab.  Which makes larger weapons more effective then the attack interval would indicate.  The same goes on during a Flank attack when the target turns around.  It is the status of your target at the start of your attack, not when the actual swing occurs.

[DWSmiley]

Something that's not going to show up in these calculations is the advantage of paralyzing, which makes speedy daggers so tasty for me.

[ExcitedApathy]

Man, with all the weapon damage info in this thread, I'm very much looking forward to making my Ranger.

[soteria]

lol. Some of us regulars here tend to bring our theorycrafting debates into whatever thread we happen to find ourselves in. Well, actually, Beancounter and Random70 contribute, and I try to poke holes in their theories and draw contrary conclusions from the data. I wish there were a way to consolidate all of this information, because sometimes a lot of good data gets lost when a thread like this eventually dies.

[ExcitedApathy]

I'm thinking a STR/DEX DW dagger Ranger/Duelist is the way to go. Haven't decided on race yet.



I find the discussion/debates around these forums to be very enlightening. I have played this game a lot but never "optimally". Glad I could start a discussion and get some of you regulars to bring your expertise to this thread.

[ExcitedApathy]

Started the build last night. Gonna focus on STR with enough DEX and CUN for skills/talents. My next question is, the whole point of me wanting to do a Ranger is to focus on using the pets as much as possible, so should I put some points into WIL to gain enough stamina to use pets and Momentum and talents or should I get my WIL from gear?

[soteria]

My ranger/dw rogue did fine without extra willpower. I usually didn't start fights with momentum active--I'd only turn it on after firing some specials off. Once you get to a high enough level, it won't matter since your stamina will be high enough regardless.

[beancounter501]

^^ What Soteria said. Turn on Momentum after firing off your specials. This is really true in the begining.



As for the theory crafting. When it comes to Rogues I usually post my ideas and then Random and Soteria have fun poking holes in them. A lot has to with different playstyles. I like a more in your face approach. I quickly lose patience trying to flank and backstab.

[ExcitedApathy]

soteria wrote...

My ranger/dw rogue did fine without extra willpower. I usually didn't start fights with momentum active--I'd only turn it on after firing some specials off. Once you get to a high enough level, it won't matter since your stamina will be high enough regardless.

Thanks for the info. With some DLC items (Battledress and Warden boots) I realized I wouldn't need any willpower.

[Last Darkness]

soteria wrote...

lol. Some of us regulars here tend to bring our theorycrafting debates into whatever thread we happen to find ourselves in. Well, actually, Beancounter and Random70 contribute, and I try to poke holes in their theories and draw contrary conclusions from the data. I wish there were a way to consolidate all of this information, because sometimes a lot of good data gets lost when a thread like this eventually dies.

Ill agree with you there, reguardless of outcome we all end up learning something.


@Bahnix
Since your going to be Str, look into Wardens Boots, Executioner Helm, and blood dragon chest. Its kinda mix 'n match but gives you some good bonuses in the begining. I hope you have fun.