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[Ulicus]

When the Archdemon is slain, Riordan tells us that its soul will automatically seek out the nearest tainted creature as a vessel in which to be reborn. This is why slaying the Archdemon requires a Grey Warden.  Yet, when describing her ritual, Morrigan explains that it will transform her unborn child into a "beacon" that overrules the "nearest" tainted creature stuff, instead forcing the Archdemon's soul to be drawn into the child.

Does this mean, then, that should a character choose to allow the Dark Ritual, anyone can now slay the archdemon without the risk of it being reborn in another darkspawn?

Because that's whats implied, and it occurs to me that raising the number of people who can put the Archdemon down from "3 Wardens" to "the entire army of Ferelden" doesn't seem so much "selfish" as it does a very sound tactical decision.

Anyhoot, thoughts? What do you think? I'm certain I'm not the first person to have had thoughts along these lines, so have any of the writers already answered this question? If it's still only a Warden who can put the Archdemon down... why? Does the Archdemon's soul need to enter a "non-empty" vessel before it can drawn to the child, or something?

[Herr Uhl]

Yes. Anyone could do it.

[Ulicus]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Yes. Anyone could do it.

Coolio, thanks Herr. Was that confirmed by one of the writers?

[Zjarcal]

That's an interesting point to say the least. I hadn't given it much thought to be honest, though the idea had passed through my mind.



I think it would be viable for anyone to kill the Archdemon with the DR. Unless a GW doing the killing is needed to prevent the essence of the Old God from taking over a random darkspawn (which wouldn't make much sense), I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible for anyone else to do the slaying.



Not that I needed a tactical reason to the DR. I like and trust Morrigan enough to be swayed away by the idea of "not having to die tomorrow". Hell, even if I didn't like her I could still be easily swayed.

[Sarah1281]

I think it does mean that. Hell, I've had Cammen do it in a one-shot (this is why you tell Alistair when you do the DR yourself so he won't hold you up). And as you said, if the single reason why a GW must kill the Archdemons is removed as the fetus will call to the OG soul more than the GW would and the GW themselves call to it more than a darkspawn why would a GW be necessary to actually kill it?

[Herr Uhl]

Ulicus wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Yes. Anyone could do it.

Coolio, thanks Herr. Was that confirmed by one of the writers?

*goes searching*

Weird, I remember it being mentioned by them. This is the closest I could come. If you were to kill it, it would search out something tainted. In this case it searches her out because of magic *does jazz hands*. It has probably never been explicitly stated that anyone can kill it though.

David Gaider wrote...

aragfore03 wrote...
Makes sense. How about this for a plothole:

If you don't take Morrigan with you to kill the archdemon.... how does the Old God's essence pass into her?

How is that a plot hole? She says the Archdemon's essence will seek out the newly-formed child. Regardless of whether or not you like that idea, it's something that is indeed stated explicitly so it's not a plot hole... unless you mean something else when you say "plot hole".

As for the "night before" line -- no, obviously we're not going to change it. It seems like hardly anyone even noticed, so it's not really worth the aggravation of altering now. Insofar on the list of irritating plot alterations caused by last-minute content cuts I'd rank that one pretty low overall. 

So while I'm not 100% certain, I see no reason why anyone couldn't kill it.

[Ulicus]

Well, to play devil's advocate, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the magic that draws the soul towards the baby requires the Archdemon's soul to have first failed to have taken control of a new host (I.E. a Warden).

Just throwing that out there.

Oh -- and thanks for going a'searchin', Herr.

[Herr Uhl]

But it doesn't try to take control, then it would have purged the warden and itself. Unless Morrigan cast a spell on all wardens (considering Loghain or Alistair or any freshly made warden could do the ritual).



Why would it fail to take the warden when the warden has not been magiced in any way?

[Corker]

I've only done three playthroughs and have only had one DR; in all cases, my GW incapacitated the dragon before it was killed.

In the DR case, the deathblow cinematic sequence triggered for my PC immediately after the Archdemon was incapacitated.  In the other cases, there was a break as Alistair and I argued over who'd kill it.

If you've done the DR and another, non-GW party member incapacitates the Archdemon, do they get the automatic deathblow cinematic?  Or does it automatically go to the GW PC?

If the NPC Companion gets the deathblow, then definitely yes, anyone can kill the Archdemon.

Alas, the inverse (that the PC always gets the cinematic deathblow) only proves that the developers thought people would prefer to see their PCs land the killing shot.  But it might suggest that a GW is still somehow important to the procedure.

[Sarah1281]

Ulicus wrote...

Well, to play devil's advocate, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the magic that draws the soul towards the baby requires the Archdemon's soul to have first failed to have taken control of a new host (I.E. a Warden).

Just throwing that out there. 

That seems unlikely. After all, the mere presence of two souls is enough to kill the Warden, it's not some epic soulfight that you could conceivably lose. And why would the magic be incapable of drawing the soul directly into it if it could remove the soul from someone else? And if the OG soul could leave the GW body once it got in why wouldn't it ditch it on its own and go find a darkspawn? 

[Herr Uhl]

Corker wrote...

If you've done the DR and another, non-GW party member incapacitates the Archdemon, do they get the automatic deathblow cinematic?  Or does it automatically go to the GW PC?

If the NPC Companion gets the deathblow, then definitely yes, anyone can kill the Archdemon.

Alas, the inverse (that the PC always gets the cinematic deathblow) only proves that the developers thought people would prefer to see their PCs land the killing shot.  But it might suggest that a GW is still somehow important to the procedure.

It's always the PC *fodly remembers Oghren beating the crap out of that thing*

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Then there's also the chance that Morrigan's wrong. If so, anyone else killing it will just sent it to the nearest darkspawn. So just in case, a warden was ideal to deal the final blow.



After all, Morrigan's not exactly a paragon of trustworthiness and dependability.

[Captain Jazz]

What if the dark ritual requires that the warden who conceived the child strike the killing blow? So that the old god's soul could be drawn into that warden, then follow some kind of spectral sperm trail to Morrigan? Of course, this would make it vitally important that the warden remained chaste between undergoing the ritual and slaying the dragon, otherwise it would lead to Leliana or Zevran... or maybe Dog, depending on what mods you perverts have installed. I know your game!

[Corker]

The other inconclusive but suggestive thing that leans me to saying that no, not anyone could kill the Archdemon is that Morrigan doesn't mention it in her  list of "Reasons Why You Should Do This."  It's a pretty darn good reason for even the most scrupulous Warden to consider the Ritual, yet it's not actually given.

Again, this only *proves* that it was felt that it was more dramatic to make this a choice between life and/or love and/or glory vs. duty, rather than duty vs duty.  But if you pretend that meta layer isn't there, tis curious Morrigan wouldn't make that argument.

[Sarah1281]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

Then there's also the chance that Morrigan's wrong. If so, anyone else killing it will just sent it to the nearest darkspawn. So just in case, a warden was ideal to deal the final blow.

After all, Morrigan's not exactly a paragon of trustworthiness and dependability.

Morrigan never tells you anyone can kill it but even if she did, why would she lie? She wants the demon baby and so if you're like 'Sten, would you do the honors?' then she might not get to have it as the Archdemon now has another chance to kill you.

Besides, what possible reason could  there be for anyone but a Warden killing the Archdemon to make it become reborn with the ritual in place? If the Archdemon dies then it's soul is pulled into the closest darkspawn unless there happens to be a GW to make the final blow unless there happens to be the DR done.

Although I am a little curious for the reason it has to be a GW to kill it. Is it proximity? What would happen if there were no living darkspawn on the roof and a Warden was standing right next to the person who killed it? 

[Sarah1281]

Captain Jazz wrote...

What if the dark ritual requires that the warden who conceived the child strike the killing blow? So that the old god's soul could be drawn into that warden, then follow some kind of spectral sperm trail to Morrigan? Of course, this would make it vitally important that the warden remained chaste between undergoing the ritual and slaying the dragon, otherwise it would lead to Leliana or Zevran... or maybe Dog, depending on what mods you perverts have installed. I know your game!

Except female Wardens always strike the deathblow with the DR.

@Corker: Honestly, I wouldn't put it past Morrigan to have never considered it as her attempts at persuasion tend towards the more selfish 'you don't want to die/don't let them steal your glory/I'm totally trying to use your LI against you' than anything altruistic like saving lives or ending the Blight sooner. If she were the Warden I don't think that an altruistic argument would sway her and so she wouldn't find it convincing enough for the Warden. And, like you said, metagaming-wise there might be more DR people if you can have a solid reason like 'if I fail, Ferelden might still stand a chance' to fall back on even if you don't trust Morrigan's intentions.

[Ulicus]

Sarah1281 wrote...
That seems unlikely. After all, the mere presence of two souls is enough to kill the Warden, it's not some epic soulfight that you could conceivably lose. And why would the magic be incapable of drawing the soul directly into it if it could remove the soul from someone else? And if the OG soul could leave the GW body once it got in why wouldn't it ditch it on its own and go find a darkspawn? 

The transmigration of the Archdemon's soul is implied to be automatic: something over which the Archdemon has no control. After all, if the Archdemon could ever choose where its soul went, it would never enter a Grey Warden at all.

My suggestion (for the sake of the argument) is that perhaps for the Archdemon's soul to be drawn into the "Beacon Baby" it must first enter a Grey Warden -- an 'occupied' vessel -- and be weakened. Once taken to the very brink of what would normally be the destruction of both souls, the Archdemon's (purified!?) soul is then ripped away towards the Beacon Baby.

In short, the Grey Warden acts akin to a filter and is the only thing stopping the baby (also an 'occupied' vessel) from being destroyed.

Modifié par Ulicus, 14 juillet 2010 - 12:39 .

[Liliandra Nadiar]

@Sarah1281



You say what reason has Morrigan to lie? I say what reason has Morrigan to tell the truth? She's very obviously hidden things from the PC. Knowing the DR and what happens to the killing blow Warden in the first place from the moment you met her bing on of the major ones. While, yes, I can't recall any point where she lies. she's hidden and glossed over facts plenty.



So from the PC Warden's POV, if she's telling the truth, anyone can kill the archdemon. If she's not, anyone but a Warden just resets the thing to a brand new body.

[Sarah1281]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

@Sarah1281

You say what reason has Morrigan to lie? I say what reason has Morrigan to tell the truth? She's very obviously hidden things from the PC. Knowing the DR and what happens to the killing blow Warden in the first place from the moment you met her bing on of the major ones. While, yes, I can't recall any point where she lies. she's hidden and glossed over facts plenty.

So from the PC Warden's POV, if she's telling the truth, anyone can kill the archdemon. If she's not, anyone but a Warden just resets the thing to a brand new body.

I already answered that: Morrigan wants a demon baby. Whatever she plans on doing with it or if it's going to be evil we don't know. We do know that she wants one and badly. If she knew that only a GW could kill the Archdemon but said 'yeah, anyone can do it' then the GW might not make sure to be the one to do so and, say, Oghren could do it  if he were the one to deal the final non-lethal blow. If the Archdemon would be reborn then there is no guarentee that you could take it on again.

Morrigan could be a self-serving sociopath who is out to conquer all of Thedas in, say, fifteen or so years with her demon baby but it wouldn't change the fact that she wouldn't do something so stupid and pointless to sabotage her chances of getting one.

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think it does mean that. Hell, I've had Cammen do it in a one-shot (this is why you tell Alistair when you do the DR yourself so he won't hold you up). And as you said, if the single reason why a GW must kill the Archdemons is removed as the fetus will call to the OG soul more than the GW would and the GW themselves call to it more than a darkspawn why would a GW be necessary to actually kill it?

When do you have the opportunity to tell Alistair that you did the DR?  I don't recall seeing that option.  Unless the Equal Love mode messed it up...?   When it was defeated, I automatically gave the final blow myself and don't recall seeing any options to do otherwise.

[Ulicus]

It's weird. If your Warden did the ritual with Morrigan, Alistair knows about it at the gates... but not at the Post-Coronation.

[Sarah1281]

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think it does mean that. Hell, I've had Cammen do it in a one-shot (this is why you tell Alistair when you do the DR yourself so he won't hold you up). And as you said, if the single reason why a GW must kill the Archdemons is removed as the fetus will call to the OG soul more than the GW would and the GW themselves call to it more than a darkspawn why would a GW be necessary to actually kill it?

When do you have the opportunity to tell Alistair that you did the DR?  I don't recall seeing that option.  Unless the Equal Love mode messed it up...?   When it was defeated, I automatically gave the final blow myself and don't recall seeing any options to do otherwise.

You don't have one in the game but here's the thing: since without the DR Alistair stops you and tries to talk you into letting him deal the final blow then it stands to reason that if he did not know that the DR was performed he would do the same thing, thus giving someone else (in this case Cammen) the ability to kill it while you're explaining to Alistair that you're going to die. Granted it doesn't happen in game if you're a guy because it ruins the dramatic tension and is kind of pointless since no one's dying but that doesn't mean that if this were a real situation that he wouldn't.

[maxernst]

Well, I did wonder why he didn't make a move to do it himself, particularly since technically it is his job (as senior warden by all of six months). But he sure acts surprised at the coronation that you're still alive. Anyway, with my canon warden's fanfic I'm playing it that he's so ashamed of having done the DR (particularly without any discussion with Alistair), that he doesn't give him any warning, just runs up and does it himself and just gets there faster. After all, he is the rogue and much more lightly armored, so it's logical that he should be able to outrun him. I do feel a little bad for Alistair having to watch, thinking my PC is gone forever. At least he doesn't pull a Romeo on him.

[AntiChri5]

I would really like to know this as well.

[David Gaider]

I remember our thinking at the time was that the Archdemon's essence had to enter a Grey Warden first-- and that the Dark Ritual would effectively "pull" the essence from the Grey Warden into the child. It didn't seem like it was important enough to explain (certainly even if that wasn't the case the player is probably the only person with the personal power to kill the Archdemon as it is), and Morrigan has a lot of explaining to cover.

Seeing as it was never mentioned, however, you can opt for whichever explanation you prefer.