29 respuestas en este tema

[Tooneyman]

In JAde Empire what was one of your favorite ways to play the game. Was it using the open fist when your character became evil or were you someone who enjoyed the open palm path. I actually liked using the open palm path. It felt very grey in most cases. Yes, I was good, but I could get away with doing a few bad decisions with out it effecting my levels.

[Fizzeler]

I don't know Open Palm felt to much like a sissy, while Closed Fist felt really cold-hearted (especially destroying the water supply)

[Tooneyman]

Fizzeler wrote...

I don't know Open Palm felt to much like a sissy, while Closed Fist felt really cold-hearted (especially destroying the water supply)

I enjoyed the Closed fist for its fact you could start certain fights with NPC if they disagreed with you. Some of the dialogue choice where a little cheesy and yes I will admit you did more damage, but If I remember correctly you only got certain fighting styles through each path.  

[Leo]

A Closed Fist PC came off as a thug, so I generally went with Open Palm.

[Alexine]

I felt that Open Palm really was too goody-goody, but Closed Fist was too ruthless for my taste. I'm assuming they are channeling a sort of KOTOR alignment system (didn't they come out of it when they started developing JE?), but it didn't work.

But since I hate being mean, I usually play the Open Palm. I tried to do a Closed Fist playthrough, but I didn't get past Two Rivers.

[Amentep]

I went mostly with Open Palm, although some play throughs I'd take the occasional Closed Fist option.



I think that while Open Palm/Closed Fist weren't supposed to be (at least as described in the beginning of the game) to be good/evil in practice they came off a bit like that.



Be interesting - if there should ever be a Jade Empire 2 - if they'd work on it so there were a bit less closely linked.

[Seagloom]

I agree with Amentep. All that stuff Smiling Mountain said about the two philosophies was interesting but fell apart in practice with the exception of a few quests. Closed Fist was fun in terms of making me feel like I was playing an unstoppable force of nature. It was also nice to kill characters that were condescending and I liked the whole might above all else concept behind it. The problem with Closed Fist was it often devolved into plainly evil acts; some of which made me feel terrible emotionally.

Open Palm was beautiful for the fuzzy, near tears moments. I liked how my character felt more connected to her party members and romance choice. What bothered me was how bland it felt at times. There were fewer moments were my character felt as cool as she did when Closed Fist, and having to put up with annoying characters I was able to beat down my first time around got tiresome. Still, it was good and I did enjoy myself enough to try it several more times. Plus, I didn't feel like a jerk anymore. Big plus there! 

I finished Jade Empire several more times as Closed Fist but I'm hesitant to claim it as my preference. They both had their ups and downs for me.

Editado por Seagloom, 14 julio 2010 - 07:24 .

[Mercuron]

I played both and for the most part, I prefer Closed Fist for the Tempest and Hidden Fist styles. The philosophy of Closed Fist also seemed to come into effect more often than Open Palm - like telling one guy you'll destroy the dam in the old Tien's Landing not for silver but because it will make the villagers stronger if they have to fight to survive, or telling the missing girl captured by pirates that you won't free her but she can be free if she is willing to fight for it by killing the guy who came there to buy her.



Open Palm never really had moments where the choices you could make had the danger of taking away people's free will in the interest of keeping them safe, which was one point Smiling Mountain made about OP not being just a case of using your power to help others.



I really think that the OP or CF options should have had your character reasoning why they were taking that action, and that if you picked ones that didn't line up with the philosophy of the Ways, you'd resolve the situation (and perhaps get more material rewards) but get no OP or CF points for it.

[abramburici]

One should play both in order to enjoy the differences.

After I played OP twice, CF seemed much more enticing (although they kinda spoiled it at some point) but it wouldn't have been so if I had not played OP first.

Overall the differences between OP and CF are not that big story-wise. This is understandable given the age of JE1, but I hope they'll expand that in JE2.

[Worrywort]

Open Palm.. I'm a bleeding heart.

[Tooneyman]

Shavon wrote...

Open Palm, for sure! I am such a softie

I did one CF play through. Romanced and turned Dawn Star. Felt very sick to my stomach afterwards . . . it was aweful =/

I'm so proud of you.  I did that with sky with my evil Witch lady. It cool seeing his evil grin when I chose to follow the evil CF path. I felt a very strong that it was the right thing to do to him.. I guess I'm just sick. When I play evil. I'm act evil. When I play good. I become good. Ahh, behold the bipolar power of Bioware games.

[Sarethus]

Copying one of my posts on another forum regarding CF/OP:



How should I say this: I prefer Closed Fist where it is well executed.



For instance:



[Spoiler/] On the pirates Island, you can choose to save a woman and her daughter, sell them as slaves or convince the daughter to fight for her freedom herself (by killing the slaver). [/Spoiler]



I preferred the last option where your basically encouraging others to survive a reasonable challenge by their own strength. The guy who taught the Wind fighting style was also a good example. Obviously CF but not a thug either.



I didn't like all the I'll beat you up because I am strong and take your money too. Which seem to go against how CF was first explained to us. This was why I didn't like helping Solider in his quest or CF master of the black panther school. If they were strong then should have relied on their own strength.



This was why I had mixed feelings about the ending, on one hand I loved the guy being evil and tyrannical but I hated that I had to use the water dragons power to achieve. If I am the strongest I should not need no water dragon.

[Tooneyman]

Sarethus wrote...

Copying one of my posts on another forum regarding CF/OP:

How should I say this: I prefer Closed Fist where it is well executed.

For instance:

[Spoiler/] On the pirates Island, you can choose to save a woman and her daughter, sell them as slaves or convince the daughter to fight for her freedom herself (by killing the slaver). [/Spoiler]

I preferred the last option where your basically encouraging others to survive a reasonable challenge by their own strength. The guy who taught the Wind fighting style was also a good example. Obviously CF but not a thug either.

I didn't like all the I'll beat you up because I am strong and take your money too. Which seem to go against how CF was first explained to us. This was why I didn't like helping Solider in his quest or CF master of the black panther school. If they were strong then should have relied on their own strength.

This was why I had mixed feelings about the ending, on one hand I loved the guy being evil and tyrannical but I hated that I had to use the water dragons power to achieve. If I am the strongest I should not need no water dragon.

YEs, excatly I love your first example with the pirate island. I choose the same way. I didn't really see her as being a murder. More as showing her how to survive in a world like that. Except. I was afraid to leave her mother with her while she was holding that knife.

[Heimdall]

Open Palm every time here... I'm too much of a goody two shoes

[Laamaa]

Open palm. I've tried playing as closed fist once (and succeeded) but it was soooo hard X.x I hate being evil :x

[MadJeSeuss II]

I prefer open palm. I just hate being a jerk ( I really feel bad for Wild Flower every time I sided with Ya Zhen).

[zx2781]

MadJeSeuss II wrote...

I prefer open palm. I just hate being a jerk ( I really feel bad for Wild Flower every time I sided with Ya Zhen).

I am playing closed fist now for the first time and am enjoying the game more than I ever have. It is not fun being a jerk for sure..breaking the dam, stealing from the villager..etc but I am seeing parts of the story I have never seen before. Turning Dawn Star into an aggressive person and the princess into a submissive one by loading up on intimidation gems. Its funny how personalities in the game change by moral choices showing that this was one of Bioware's most in depth and complex games...to bad people condemn it for its percieved simplicity. 

[themincer]

I found the 'evil path' in this game the hardest to follow out of any BW rpg I've played. I really cared about the universe and its people, and felt like scum if I screwed them over.

And I normally like playing the 'evil choice' in BW games a lot of the time, as I usually feel little guilt for doing so, because I tend to feel justified in my cynical opinion of the people who inhabit those worlds.

Although it's rare that I play an all-out villain, my 'main' characters in each BW game tend to have at the very least, some degree of an edge to them, and also a leaning towards an anti-hero type figure.

However, in Jade Empire, I consider my main "canonical" playthrough to be that of my female Open Palm-centered pc.
She just seems to "fit" the game better for me.

PS. zx2781: Totally agree with your final point, thank you for giving voice to something I've felt about the game for some time now.

Edit: I just want to add/explain = I found the evil path in this game very brutal, even compared to other BW games (e.g. the closed fist ending where you absorb the Water Dragon's power ), the big evil choices were just so out-and-out cruel. Not a criticism mind you (far from it), just from a personal point of view the darker moral decisions in this game were even darker than those found in KotOR (which had some extremely brutal twists itself).

Editado por themincer, 13 noviembre 2011 - 12:39 .

[Qvaestor]

Actually, I find the Way of the Closed Fist fascinating as a philosophy, and in the long run far more efficient than the open palm. If one learns to be strong one can help himself even when the "hero" is gone. If the "hero" coddles the weak and poor they learn nothing, and will fall to another weakness after the wandering adventurer is no longer there to help them. And as Bladed Thesis pointed out, strength does come from adversity. Eternal peace inevitably brings eternal stagnation. Struggle is part of nature.

Sadly, the game does not offer many genuine Closed Fist moments, which is a terrible waste, considering the philosophy itself has great merit. The best example of this is in the Yifong and Fuyao quest, where you have the option to choose a Closed Fist path just as Smiling Mountain and Bladed Thesis described. You step in and kill the slave breaker and his men ("That same man might help if the odds are unreasonable"), but you convince Fuyao to draw blood for the first time by plunging a knife in the heart of her new master, thus earning for herself a physical and spiritual release whilst gaining a psychological readiness for standing for herself. (which is basically Bladed Thesis' philosophy).

And in the end, telling Yifong that she should be proud, whilst Fuyao replying that she is glad to see her mother safe. (because Closed Fist does not advocate mindless killing, it is natural to assume that Fuyao still cares about/loves her mother, despite the fact that she becomes different.)

This is the Way of the Closed Fist that I like so much. Pity that there are more "traditional evil" moments in-game should you choose to take this path. It was another thing in Jade Empire that had a lot of potential.


As for the Closed Fist ending, I fail to see how it is "evil" in any sense of the word. If anything, the player character has more right to take that power for him/herself than anyone. Unlike Sun Hai and Sun Li, he did not choose to be part of any of this. He was to be a pawn from beginning to end, for Sun Li and the Water Dragon alike, but he chose to free himself and act of his own accord. If the Closed Fist philosophy is applied, the Water Dragon was too weak to repel the three brothers when they attacked her, despite the fact that she was a god(dess) and they were - at the time - mortal, so she deserves her fate, and subsequent death.

(Don't get me wrong, I actually liked the Water Dragon, but the "good" player still was a pawn in a game between her and Sun Li...)

Editado por Qvaestor, 16 noviembre 2011 - 01:13 .

[zx2781]

As I said the most impactful result of Closed Fist is the change in the characters. I always played Open Palm and Dawn Star would always be that clingy, whining and submissive character. I switched her over and heard dialog and threats I had not heard (omission of spoilers).

On the other hand Princess Lian is easily brought into a submissive mode by your choices instead of being the bully.

What a great game........JEII

[naledgeborn]

The Way of Closed Fist according to Smiling Mountain and Sagacious Zu. Their interpretation of the Closed Fist is a lot more sensible and has more depth. Mustache twirling villainy or base thuggery is a big no.

Merchant is being robbed by one bandit. Ignore the merchant or extort silver from merchant in exchange for help.
If the same merchant is being robbed by 3 bandits then intervene to even the odds.

My favorite in-game example of this is when asked to free Fuyao from slavery. You can kill her captors and emancipate her from her new "owner" (Open Palm) or you can kill her captors and encourage/enable her to free herself from her new owner (Closed Fist),  or you can re-sell her to her new owner (evil thuggery).

I would take the middle option.

So then a follower of the Closed FIst would tell her that "Freedom is worth fighting for". Or you can settle for evil thuggery and call her a bloodthirsty murderer.

Editado por naledgeborn, 20 noviembre 2011 - 06:32 .

[themincer]

Qvaestor wrote...

As for the Closed Fist ending, I fail to see how it is "evil" in any sense of the word. If anything, the player character has more right to take that power for him/herself than anyone. Unlike Sun Hai and Sun Li, he did not choose to be part of any of this. He was to be a pawn from beginning to end, for Sun Li and the Water Dragon alike, but he chose to free himself and act of his own accord. If the Closed Fist philosophy is applied, the Water Dragon was too weak to repel the three brothers when they attacked her, despite the fact that she was a god(dess) and they were - at the time - mortal, so she deserves her fate, and subsequent death.

(Don't get me wrong, I actually liked the Water Dragon, but the "good" player still was a pawn in a game between her and Sun Li...)

Well, it's pretty darn evil that you have to spill one of your companions' blood to CORRUPT the natural power of the Waterdragon (and the majority of your companions sure as hell didn't use you - in fact, they tended to support you instead).
Anyway, the act is unnatural - and that goes against Closed Fist philosophy for me, because (just like Sun Li does in the neutral/forfeit ending) you, a mortal, distort the equilibrium of life by taking the power of a god.
In doing so, you don't give life a chance to evolve again whilst it's under your influence - you dominate and subdue it so it can't resist your will. You stagnate existence by denying it it's own will. This is the philosophy of Sun Li, not of the Closed Fist.
Plus, to my mind, the Water Dragon was attempting to restore balance to the world (a world in which Sun Hai had robbed of the ability to stand on its own two feet by giving it unlimited water), and in turn, her influence will allow the world to return to a place of struggle and conflict where the strong can flourish again, and the world can fend for itself once more. She might not have meant/intended it that way exactly, but the practical implications of the end result lends itself to a far more Closed Fist path than the alternatives presented by a selfish/evil Spirit Monk, Sun Li, or Sun Hai.

[Qvaestor]

And who decides what is natural and what is not? The Water Dragon? The Celestial Bureaucracy? Neither of them really created the world, they just play the role of the functionary as left by an absentee maker whose origins are not only mysterious, but questionable as well. (do we *truly* know who/what the Great Dragon is? Only through stories told by those who in turn know this from other's stories.)

The Water Dragon called the Dweller in the Depths "the manifestation of everything that is wrong in our world", but think about it - if the Dweller would have somehow managed to conquer the world, him and his servants would have become the new natural order, as he would have remade the world in his own image. History is written by the victor.

And the Dweller was not even *part* of this universe, whilst the Spirit Monk and Sun Li were. Who decides what is "right" and "wrong"? They're concepts given shape and form through articulateness, and they go as far as the words of the person who manages to impose his/her own concepts upon the world, be that achieved through strength and tyranny or through benevolence and kindness (though the latter seldom works).

As for stagnating existence... I doubt it. Just because the Spirit Monk becomes a god doesn't mean (s)he become the *only* god in existence. It's likely possible that at one point, (s)he would lose power and be overthrown by a stronger other.

I do agree that Sun Li's ending goes against the Closed Fist, but that is because, in my opinion, Sun Li portrays the extreme end of the Way of the Open Palm, taking it too far to reach - as Smiling Mountain put it - "tyranny from within". He genuinely believed that his brother is a tyrant and that he will put an end to it by killing him and taking his place, but all the while he became a dictator himself without realizing it (and still doesn't, as he said "I am not a villain, there is no malice in my actions". I doubt he was lying to the PC at that point.)

The Closed Fist path for the PC takes another route - you become the strongest and elevate yourself above all others by becoming a god and remaking the Jade Empire in your image, without trying to justify yourself in any matter. You simply struggled into godhood and now reap the rewards of that power.

At least that's how I see it.

Editado por Qvaestor, 05 diciembre 2011 - 02:08 .

[themincer]

Qvaestor wrote...

And who decides what is natural and what is not? The Water Dragon? The Celestial Bureaucracy? Neither of them really created the world, they just play the role of the functionary as left by an absentee maker whose origins are not only mysterious, but questionable as well. (do we *truly* know who/what the Great Dragon is? Only through stories told by those who in turn know this from other's stories.)

The Water Dragon called the Dweller in the Depths "the manifestation of everything that is wrong in our world", but think about it - if the Dweller would have somehow managed to conquer the world, him and his servants would have become the new natural order, as he would have remade the world in his own image. History is written by the victor.

And the Dweller was not even *part* of this universe, whilst the Spirit Monk and Sun Li were. Who decides what is "right" and "wrong"? They're concepts given shape and form through articulateness, and they go as far as the words of the person who manages to impose his/her own concepts upon the world, be that achieved through strength and tyranny or through benevolence and kindness (though the latter seldom works).

As for stagnating existence... I doubt it. Just because the Spirit Monk becomes a god doesn't mean (s)he become the *only* god in existence. It's likely possible that at one point, (s)he would lose power and be overthrown by a stronger other.

I do agree that Sun Li's ending goes against the Closed Fist, but that is because, in my opinion, Sun Li portrays the extreme end of the Way of the Open Palm, taking it too far to reach - as Smiling Mountain put it - "tyranny from within". He genuinely believed that his brother is a tyrant and that he will put an end to it by killing him and taking his place, but all the while he became a dictator himself without realizing it (and still doesn't, as he said "I am not a villain, there is no malice in my actions". I doubt he was lying to the PC at that point.)

The Closed Fist path for the PC takes another route - you become the strongest and elevate yourself above all others by becoming a god and remaking the Jade Empire in your image, without trying to justify yourself in any matter. You simply struggled into godhood and now reap the rewards of that power.

At least that's how I see it.

Fair enough - I was just playing devil's advocate for the morality system that is presented to us, the player/spirit monk, by the game and the characters within (and their words, etc).

The Celestial Bureaucracy wasn't a concept I was impressed with personally tbh, and made my character's role seem less vital as a result of that revelation in the story (when you first meet Zhu Bin).

So I relate to your personal questioning of the status quo's hierarchy and the true nature of the roles they play, but in terms of me role-playing my character (with the restricted tools available to me in the game) you can't really question or doubt the system that fundamentally.

As a result, I had to play my character with what knowledge I did actually have - and though maybe naive, I still consider the choices I had my character make were of good intentions. And that's the key to me - I played her as having her "heart in the right place". Now, taking the Water Dragon's power is certainly not a justifiable act by those standards.

However, I can understand if your reasoning for such behaviour is vindicated by more elaborate thoughts (some of which being based upon personal theories and supposition, at the least).
I can also understand how your lack of conviction of your character being told the full truth (particularly in regards to information which is relevant to you and your decision-making) fuels your distrust of many of the key characters in the game, and thus in turn, consequently also fuels your questioning nature.
Your thoughts on the matter do intrigue me, and I don't necessarily disagree with you for the most part (from a personal point-of-view).

In the context of the game - ultimately - the way I interpreted it, is that by the philosophies of the Open Palm and Closed Fist, the act of taking the Water Dragon's power (and the nature and method required for doing so) goes against their way of thinking, and is therefore, morally irresponsible, and at a push, could be labelled as an 'evil' act, because the essence of the act would be considered potentially counter-productive in the grand scheme of things.