197 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Stalky24 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I truly do not understand what problem people have with the dialogue wheel. You still get to choose what your character says, so what's the issue?

less comfortable to control, paraphrases what youre gonna say which may result in saying something you did not wanted to, no numbers to quickly choose answer, incidents with mouse clicking on different part of wheel, sign that it reminds more and more ass effect, sign that consoles are now prefered platform, takes away all the fun from readying all the possible answers, makes dialogue more bounded, since every part got its purpose, so youll always get "sarcastic" "flirty" "friendly" and whatever kind of answers rather then unique options for each dialogue, wheel is also bounded to full VO which degrades highly role-play part of Dragon Age, and simply doesnt feel natural for hardcore rpg players

 Never had trouble controling it myself, that only happens if I try to rush through the conversation without thinking.

I will give you the paraphrasing point as that does sometimes mislead you though it seems they're correcting that with the symbols for intent.

The rest of this speech sounds like opinion, groundless conjecture and whining from so called "hardcore rpg players" who hate it because it isn't what they're used to.

[TheTrooper1138]

Stalky24 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I truly do not understand what problem people have with the dialogue wheel. You still get to choose what your character says, so what's the issue?

less comfortable to control, paraphrases what youre gonna say which may result in saying something you did not wanted to, no numbers to quickly choose answer, incidents with mouse clicking on different part of wheel, sign that it reminds more and more ass effect, sign that consoles are now prefered platform, takes away all the fun from readying all the possible answers, makes dialogue more bounded, since every part got its purpose, so youll always get "sarcastic" "flirty" "friendly" and whatever kind of answers rather then unique options for each dialogue, wheel is also bounded to full VO which degrades highly role-play part of Dragon Age, and simply doesnt feel natural for hardcore rpg players

this. DAO had a lot of unique dialogue options, a ME like wheel couldn't possibly give us that many great options of what to say, it would dumb it down to "friendly, neutral, hostile" or something like that, as it is in Mass Effect and I don't like that, that's not RPG... and it's not a "slight" change either, as some condescending idiot suggested, it's a major change, since it's a difference whether I can choose my own dialogue options or just give the general tone of it and let the character then fill out the dialogue...

[Wicked 702]

filaminstrel wrote...

Just because they haven't released much info doesn't mean there's nothing to take issue with. They've confirmed the change in the dialog system. They've confirmed that it's a human-only protagonist. They've confirmed that combat on the consoles will be significantly retooled. Even if things like these don't concern you, you should still be able to see how they might concern some people.

Now, I don't think people should overreact and slam BioWare for ruining RPGs forever and contributing to the downfall of humanity, but there is room here for level-headed people voicing their concerns about what has been thus far revealed.

Exactly. I have no doubt the game will be good (though I worry about about the technical details.....bugs) but that doesn't mean just because it's good I'm going to want it. It may simply not appeal to me with these changes.

And by the way, so far it definitely doesn't. The sky's not falling yet though...

[Chuvvy]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

The people that aren't upset by it just didn't have as much invested in the game.  (atleast the majority, I'm sure theres a few people just more patient than I to hear what Bio has planned)

Here's one.

[TheTrooper1138]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The rest of this speech sounds like opinion, groundless conjecture and whining from so called "hardcore rpg players" who hate it because it isn't what they're used to.

The fact that a dialogue wheel offers far less options than a real dialogue system is not "groundless", it's a fact. And so far it's only the BioWare fanboys who are condescending and calling critics "whiners" and every word of criticism "groundless" or whatever...

[Stalky24]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Stalky24 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I truly do not understand what problem people have with the dialogue wheel. You still get to choose what your character says, so what's the issue?

less comfortable to control, paraphrases what youre gonna say which may result in saying something you did not wanted to, no numbers to quickly choose answer, incidents with mouse clicking on different part of wheel, sign that it reminds more and more ass effect, sign that consoles are now prefered platform, takes away all the fun from readying all the possible answers, makes dialogue more bounded, since every part got its purpose, so youll always get "sarcastic" "flirty" "friendly" and whatever kind of answers rather then unique options for each dialogue, wheel is also bounded to full VO which degrades highly role-play part of Dragon Age, and simply doesnt feel natural for hardcore rpg players

 Never had trouble controling it myself, that only happens if I try to rush through the conversation without thinking.

I will give you the paraphrasing point as that does sometimes mislead you though it seems they're correcting that with the symbols for intent.

The rest of this speech sounds like opinion, groundless conjecture and whining from so called "hardcore rpg players" who hate it because it isn't what they're used to.

Hm, never really could get used to it with mouse (but I love it with gamepad), I often misclicked

Oh if you are annoyed by "groundless conjecture and whining from so called hardcore rpg players" I think youre in wrong forums, my friend.

[Narreneth]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The rest of this speech sounds like opinion, groundless conjecture and whining from so called "hardcore rpg players" who hate it because it isn't what they're used to.

The fact that a dialogue wheel offers far less options than a real dialogue system is not "groundless", it's a fact. And so far it's only the BioWare fanboys who are condescending and calling critics "whiners" and every word of criticism "groundless" or whatever...

You are a BioWare fanboy too.  If you weren't you wouldn't be posting here.

[Stalky24]

this forums need delete post function

Modifié par Stalky24, 14 juillet 2010 - 01:47 .

[TheTrooper1138]

Narreneth wrote...

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The rest of this speech sounds like opinion, groundless conjecture and whining from so called "hardcore rpg players" who hate it because it isn't what they're used to.

The fact that a dialogue wheel offers far less options than a real dialogue system is not "groundless", it's a fact. And so far it's only the BioWare fanboys who are condescending and calling critics "whiners" and every word of criticism "groundless" or whatever...

You are a BioWare fanboy too.  If you weren't you wouldn't be posting here.

uhm, no, that's faulty reasoning... I could just be posting here because I enjoy some of their games, that doesn't make me a fanboy... fanboys are those who defend every decision/content from BW from the critics, even if it's utter garbage... 

[thenemesis77]

Collider wrote...

LEAVE BIOWARE ALONE! THEY'RE HUMANS!

Your right on one thing....thier human, paid to make a game that people want, one that you would think people that bought DAO would want and I just don't see alot of that around, too many changes to a game that was fine the way it was. they can use propaganda all day long saying we that don't like the changes are a small few, but anyone that got DAO would have to have  access to the net and have to patch the game to keep up with it, unless they live in the sticks, So when David and others say we are the few that is propaganda to make everyone feel that those that don't like the game are just a few people. You have to make a account that takes you to this place and yea there are those that don't post and those that do but to use us as a small margin is moot and vague. 

[Narreneth]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The rest of this speech sounds like opinion, groundless conjecture and whining from so called "hardcore rpg players" who hate it because it isn't what they're used to.

The fact that a dialogue wheel offers far less options than a real dialogue system is not "groundless", it's a fact. And so far it's only the BioWare fanboys who are condescending and calling critics "whiners" and every word of criticism "groundless" or whatever...

The dialogue wheel had fewer options in Mass Effect because it sticks to a system where you're constantly vying for Renegade or Paragon points.  There are more cut and dry Paragon Neutral Renegade situations.  However, there is also almost always more dialogue options on the other side of the wheel that lead to more dialogue options that lead to more dialogue options.  A fact that you seem to be ignoring is DAO already has "good" "mean" "kind" "sarcastic" etc sets of dialogue in it.  The primary difference is instead of being spelled out they will be paraphrased.   You're calling the wheel dialogue system less expansive, but the only example you have for that is Mass Effect.  There's no set standard that says you can't have 6 different responses to different lines.  That's what makes it groundless.  Not that you have reservations about it.

[Wicked 702]

YOU should all just shut up and trust Bioware's decisions because everything they do is right and they're the greatest RPG maker of all time....blah blah blah.



That's a fanboy...

[CrimsonPhoenix--]

Narreneth wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

" it's going to reach the point where they're going to ditch there community first approach because it just isn't worth it."

You do realize that the reason most people are complaining is because Bioware is making decisions that upset the community right?

Upsets part of the community.  Not everyone is upset by it.  Not even most people.  Just a vocal minority.  The only reason I even found out people were being babies about this is because I like forums and checked on these ones after the post highlighting the get to know Hawke section of GI.  Most people don't post on these forums.  Most people who post on these forums will not post if they're content with what's being done.

You can't please everyone.  That's a hazard of being a gaming company.  I'd be much more displeased with BioWare if they went with the whims of every single whining forumite than if they made a decision that changes a part of the games they make.

The people that aren't upset by it just didn't have as much invested in the game.  (atleast the majority, I'm sure theres a few people just more patient than I to hear what Bio has planned)

That is a ridiculous statement to make and the exact same crap I've been hearing all over the boards today.  "The real fans don't like this."  "Only the casual(whatever that means) players like this!"  Essentially all these sweeping generalizations that serve nothing more than to stroke the ego of the person posting it.

What I have gathered from all the doomsayers (yourself included) is this:
1)  You think you're smarter, more creative, and better gamers all around than the people who either aren't bothered by or *gasp* may like the idea of some of or all of the changes.

2) You think that there are definitions in gaming that do not exist.  Such as: "traditional RPG" while I think I understand the basic sentiment of the phrase, ultimately what it comes down to is there really is no cut and dry "traditional" way of doing RPGs; and, if there were, Dragon Age: Origins is not one of them anyway.

3) You seem to think DA:O was a hard game that took strategy and skill to complete.  (It did not.  It was fun being able to use strategy... you did not need it.  Not even on Nightmare)

There's more but I think I've gotten my point across.  I'm not trying to turn this into a pissing contest.  Point is, there are plenty of people (statistically speaking, it'd be the same amount of people) that are just as invested in this IP as you that like the changes put forward.  There are likely also an equal amount that are indifferent to them.

There is nothing wrong with thinking the changes may turn out to be bad.  There's nothing wrong with voicing that either.  The problem is that most of the people (yourself included) have been summarily bashing people for thinking differently from them and strutting around the forums trying to establish dominance amongst a group that shares a common interest.  It's funny how people try to set themselves apart even amongst peers.   

Right on!!!  I totally second your opinion

[Kohaku]

thenemesis77 wrote...

Collider wrote...

LEAVE BIOWARE ALONE! THEY'RE HUMANS!

Your right on one thing....thier human, paid to make a game that people want, one that you would think people that bought DAO would want and I just don't see alot of that around, too many changes to a game that was fine the way it was. they can use propaganda all day long saying we that don't like the changes are a small few, but anyone that got DAO would have to have  access to the net and have to patch the game to keep up with it, unless they live in the sticks, So when David and others say we are the few that is propaganda to make everyone feel that those that don't like the game are just a few people. You have to make a account that takes you to this place and yea there are those that don't post and those that do but to use us as a small margin is moot and vague. 

No. They are paid to make what they want. I swear to God, if a company made a game I wanted they'd be out of business.

[underhill1990]

all these nerd ragers need to stfu

[Narreneth]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The rest of this speech sounds like opinion, groundless conjecture and whining from so called "hardcore rpg players" who hate it because it isn't what they're used to.

The fact that a dialogue wheel offers far less options than a real dialogue system is not "groundless", it's a fact. And so far it's only the BioWare fanboys who are condescending and calling critics "whiners" and every word of criticism "groundless" or whatever...

You are a BioWare fanboy too.  If you weren't you wouldn't be posting here.

uhm, no, that's faulty reasoning... I could just be posting here because I enjoy some of their games, that doesn't make me a fanboy... fanboys are those who defend every decision/content from BW from the critics, even if it's utter garbage... 

With how vehemently you've argued your points in earlier posts I'm going to have to stick with you being a fanboy. 

[Heimdall]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The rest of this speech sounds like opinion, groundless conjecture and whining from so called "hardcore rpg players" who hate it because it isn't what they're used to.

The fact that a dialogue wheel offers far less options than a real dialogue system is not "groundless", it's a fact. And so far it's only the BioWare fanboys who are condescending and calling critics "whiners" and every word of criticism "groundless" or whatever...

I call criticism of new features we know little about and haven't seen in action groundless.

And DA:O responses could easily be divided into "Friendly", "hostile", "flirty", ect. in just about every conversation.  It just wasn't labeled

[Narreneth]

Lord Aesir wrote...

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The rest of this speech sounds like opinion, groundless conjecture and whining from so called "hardcore rpg players" who hate it because it isn't what they're used to.

The fact that a dialogue wheel offers far less options than a real dialogue system is not "groundless", it's a fact. And so far it's only the BioWare fanboys who are condescending and calling critics "whiners" and every word of criticism "groundless" or whatever...

I call criticism of new features we know little about and haven't seen in action groundless.

And DA:O responses could easily be divided into "Friendly", "hostile", "flirty", ect. in just about every conversation.  It just wasn't labeled

You, sir, deserve a medal.  (not being sarcastic)

[bjdbwea]

That would require they even read, let alone care about what people write on their forums.

[Lord_Saulot]

Fanboy is just the flipside of whiner. Neither kind of name calling belongs in constructive dialogue.



And we do not know how the dialogue wheel will be implemented in this game yet. Implementation is unlikely to be like in ME2 because this is Dragon Age. May be good, may be bad, who knows?

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Narreneth wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

" it's going to reach the point where they're going to ditch there community first approach because it just isn't worth it."

You do realize that the reason most people are complaining is because Bioware is making decisions that upset the community right?

Upsets part of the community.  Not everyone is upset by it.  Not even most people.  Just a vocal minority.  The only reason I even found out people were being babies about this is because I like forums and checked on these ones after the post highlighting the get to know Hawke section of GI.  Most people don't post on these forums.  Most people who post on these forums will not post if they're content with what's being done.

You can't please everyone.  That's a hazard of being a gaming company.  I'd be much more displeased with BioWare if they went with the whims of every single whining forumite than if they made a decision that changes a part of the games they make.

The people that aren't upset by it just didn't have as much invested in the game.  (atleast the majority, I'm sure theres a few people just more patient than I to hear what Bio has planned)

That is a ridiculous statement to make and the exact same crap I've been hearing all over the boards today.  "The real fans don't like this."  "Only the casual(whatever that means) players like this!"  Essentially all these sweeping generalizations that serve nothing more than to stroke the ego of the person posting it.

What I have gathered from all the doomsayers (yourself included) is this:
1)  You think you're smarter, more creative, and better gamers all around than the people who either aren't bothered by or *gasp* may like the idea of some of or all of the changes.

2) You think that there are definitions in gaming that do not exist.  Such as: "traditional RPG" while I think I understand the basic sentiment of the phrase, ultimately what it comes down to is there really is no cut and dry "traditional" way of doing RPGs; and, if there were, Dragon Age: Origins is not one of them anyway.

3) You seem to think DA:O was a hard game that took strategy and skill to complete.  (It did not.  It was fun being able to use strategy... you did not need it.  Not even on Nightmare)

There's more but I think I've gotten my point across.  I'm not trying to turn this into a pissing contest.  Point is, there are plenty of people (statistically speaking, it'd be the same amount of people) that are just as invested in this IP as you that like the changes put forward.  There are likely also an equal amount that are indifferent to them.

There is nothing wrong with thinking the changes may turn out to be bad.  There's nothing wrong with voicing that either.  The problem is that most of the people (yourself included) have been summarily bashing people for thinking differently from them and strutting around the forums trying to establish dominance amongst a group that shares a common interest.  It's funny how people try to set themselves apart even amongst peers.   

1. I think none of those things.  I do think however that I've put a hell of a lot more time into the game than the majority of people. (Unless you think it's common for people to play the game for 200+ hours, read both the books, buy most of the DLC, and do modding work for the game) It doesn't grant me more authority over Bioware certainly, but I think it does give me some allowance to be a bit dismissive of comments from people who clearly haven't done the same. Certainly don't mean to pick out posters on these boards, as there's no way for me to know whose done what. referring mostly to people outside of these boards, mostly on other gaming websites.  From what I've seen: the majority of people have only finished the game once.  And most of their criticisms are not complaints that I see often on these boards. (No VO, Combat not actiony enough etc)  The people who have those complaints may not be wrong: but I feel they are wrong so I shall respond as if they are wrong.  T'is called opinion.  Fancy that.   

If someone is truly indifferent to the changes then they shouldn't **** about me being against them, and if someone likes the changes then perhaps they should form a counter-argument as to why those changes benefit the game instead instead of focusing on attacking people against those changes claiming they're "elitist" and all that other bull****.  (Hells perhaps they have, but I haven't seen it)


2. Traditional RPG is a term that grows increasingly more relevant as time goes on.  A traditional RPG is simple to define really: It's an RPG that predominately features elements of RPG games of the past.  We live in an age where nearly every game under the sun has "RPG elements", we need some way to differentiate between 'real RPGs" and "Games with RPG elements".  Traditional RPG is the term we used to do that.  

3.DA:O was a hard game for plenty of people.  I know I struggled my first time through.  Now that I've played a bit more it's certainly easier and Nightmare is actually fairly simple at this point but that is true of any game.  I've recently started playing Baldur's Gate 2 for the first time and I'm intimidated as hell by it so I'm just playing through on Easy at the moment, but I've no doubt that some people play through it Solo, Naked and with intentional suboptimal builds on the hardest difficulty.  


So yes while I do generalize massively saying "Those darn casuals are ruining mah dragon age", it's not entirely untrue.  "Dumbing Down" has been an industry trend for the better part of the current console generation, and we've witnessed it dozens of times.  I'm not happy at the prospect of one of my favourite game series being "dumbed down" and sometimes that manifest itself as gross generalizations.  Hell, it may even turn out to be an unfounded worry.  That'd sure be nice. 

EDIT:

And considering we just watched the forementioned "dumbing-down" happen with ME2, our fears have precedent within Bioware and not just the industry.

Modifié par ITSSEXYTIME, 14 juillet 2010 - 02:06 .

[sgs1999]

My reasons for disliking what I have seen so far of DA2 is the disconnect between the original and the sequel. Instead of continuing the Warden's story, we're given a new character. (That is not the biggest issue though, in light of the many different endings that DA:O had/subsequent difficulties of fitting said endings in a sequel.).

Instead of getting to choose our new character's origins, we are told that he will be only human. Instead of us getting any continuation/resolution of the many, many loose threads that the original left, we get told that there are many other stories to tell in the land of Thedas.

Usually, sequels at least try to have a fairly strong connection to the original, here it seems more like any connection to Origins will be incidental at best. Everything else that seems wrong with DA2 (the abysmal screenshots, the silly last name, moving the setting to unknown Kirkwall) is secondary to this concern, namely that based on the info so far, there is little to connect the two games.

In short, it's like if George Lucas had decided that Empire Strikes Back would not feature Luke, Han and Leia, but some unknown hero, and that his struggle was about something quite unconnected to the galactic civil war.

I will however keep an open mind until at least it comes out or I hear much, much, more about the game.

EDIT: Wall of text turned into sentences.

Modifié par sgs1999, 14 juillet 2010 - 02:03 .

[Stalky24]

I would like to know how would ME fans reacted if BW decided to not include Shepard as PC in ME3

[thenemesis77]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

thenemesis77 wrote...

Collider wrote...

LEAVE BIOWARE ALONE! THEY'RE HUMANS!

Your right on one thing....thier human, paid to make a game that people want, one that you would think people that bought DAO would want and I just don't see alot of that around, too many changes to a game that was fine the way it was. they can use propaganda all day long saying we that don't like the changes are a small few, but anyone that got DAO would have to have  access to the net and have to patch the game to keep up with it, unless they live in the sticks, So when David and others say we are the few that is propaganda to make everyone feel that those that don't like the game are just a few people. You have to make a account that takes you to this place and yea there are those that don't post and those that do but to use us as a small margin is moot and vague. 

No. They are paid to make what they want. I swear to God, if a company made a game I wanted they'd be out of business.

Really? So to say that DAO was not a game alot of RPG gamers wanted was not a game people wanted? No. it was a game people wanted......DA2 is not......it's for you I would guess? I hope when you pick a game it's not just for you but it's the game you wanted the game maker to want..........thats great have fun with that.