1480 réponses à ce sujet

[slowdive.fan]

I don't see what the big deal is here people.  The BGR team is doing an awesome job and they have a very defined goal and vision for the game.  Leave Shallina alone so he can get back to scripting .

I personally like the direction they are going and I am trying to taking a similar path with the IWD remake.  Make the game the way I want it to be (since I am the one devoting so much of my time to it) and after it is released others will modifiy it to the way they want it.  It is a win-win for all.  Just watch, within a week after BGR is released there will be a mod that allows unrestricted leveling/multi-classing and a SoZ style party creation.  Both of these options will be very easy to implement after the fact.  This discussion is very interesting and let's keep it going, but complaining about their project design is kind of silly and pointless because it will be very easy to modify it to be flexible after they release it.

I'm excited for the release and it'll be great to experience such a wonderful game in the NWN2 engine.  Keep up the great work BGR Team!

[The Fred]

I for one am not compaining, and besides I think the tack Shallina is taking on party creation (we will do it if we have time but it's not high priority) is fair enough, I think an option for such a thing is a good idea (as we said it's available in the original game) but it's easy to add afterwards anyway. Personally I think the NPCs have more character, but even in the original there were combinations you couldn't get and one got bored of the NPCs after the 20th playthrough.

Likewise with the multiclassing, I can see both sides. I would personally be tempted to allow a variety of PrCs for each character as well as any base classes, since these require certain feats and so forth anyway (e.g. making Immy an Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep would be believable, if not likely). Given, though, that it ought to be easy to change (one setting in the campaign file), I wouldn't worry too much.

-Semper- wrote...
...it should not take long after the first mods of the mod will be available

Shotgun doing The Grey Clan: Episode 1!

[slowdive.fan]

Yeah, I guess "complaining" was not the best choice of word and I should have said "worried" or "concerned". 

[Shallina]

we should have done a green room with only one NPC in it, you speak to it, and bam you are lvl 30, and it gives you a + 20 sword of doom.

A full screen message will appear, and it will say : Congrats, you just beat the game !!!

That's what powergaming is in a solo game.

Powergaming can be cool, but you need a competition for it. Mostly PVP or things like that.

Solo game are more about  "you are in a world and you must do with what you have and more importantly with what the world can offer you", finding the good combinaison, or the compagnion that will complete your party correctly is also a part of the game.

Going with a party of 6 custom why not, but you'll miss half the fun and many many quest and the custom voiceset made from the orignal one for the companion.

Modifié par Shallina, 08 juillet 2011 - 12:22 .

[Arkalezth]

So you don't want to allow party creation because that's powergaming? Party creation is the base of RPGs... You can make a powerful party, or a weak one, and you can also power-game with just one created character.

Personally, I've always used NPCs in both BG games, but only because it's funnier (except a couple times when I was bored and played solo, just for the change). But if someone wants to create a party, why don't let him/her, powergaming or not? That's not your responsibility.

There aren't many modules that allow party creation, so I think that adding the OPTION to do so (so, a player's choice, at player's own risk) is good. Dorateen's modules are refreshing because of that (and I used NPCs the first time). I know BG is a story and NPC based game, but if it's possible to do, why not? Using it or not is a player's decission, just adding the option isn't bad IMO, and the original BG allowed it, as it's been said.

Anyway, I'm expecting this module and hope it gets released soon!

[Shallina]

Party creation will probably be done but not supported for bug.

And party creation is the base for IWD and SOZ but it's not the base in Baldur's gate.
In NWN2 OC and MOTB, PST, Dragon age there is no party creation. There is even restricted class selection.

And MOTB is still acclaimed as one of the best,RPG ever made.

Party creation are fine for dunjeon crawler. Baldur's gate is a little more than that.

Modifié par Shallina, 08 juillet 2011 - 08:15 .

[Squire]

Shallina wrote...

Solo game are more about  "you are in a world and you must do with what you have and more importantly with what the world can offer you", finding the good combinaison, or the compagnion that will complete your party correctly is also a part of the game.

I agree. Games like IWD were geared towards creating an idea party from scratch, and the difficulty was reflected in that. Unless you optimised your party, you'd struggle to get far. But BG is different.

Going with a party of 6 custom why not, but you'll miss half the fun and many many quest and the custom voiceset made from the orignal one for the companion.

QFT!

Put in the option, sure. But I wouldn't spend vast amounts of time making sure it works...in fact, I'd just put an OOC note in the dialogue (or whatever you have to access it) saying "Warning: this hasn't been tested properly and may not work as intended. Proceed at your own risk.".

[Irvin Trout]

Heya there,

first off - this is probably the project I'm looking forward to the most. I'm following your progress (silently) for several years now and I recently signed in exclusively to be able to write this post. BG is after all those years still my favourite RPG. And to see it being created within the NWN2 engine is like a dream coming true.I'm especially admiring that you managed to stick so close to the original look/atmosphere that a BG "veteran" instantly recognizes what area is shown on a given screenshot.
Keep up the great work!

I have a few questions though:

(1) Will your mod support multiplayer? The original BG was a bit tricky about MP and I still dream of a real RP experience for that fantastic story.

(2) Somewhere in all those many threads about BGR you mentioned that you implement an older version of Kaedrin's custom content. I'm curious what version you may implement (since he added a few really nice PrC's for example :innocent: ). What about his added feats for example (the wizard reserve feats, oversized two weapon fighting and the like). What can we expect here?

(3) Will you implement the original BG system of partially respawning enemies?
I always found it odd that you could "clear" the first level of a multi-level-dungeon, retreat for resupplying/resting and find an empty level 1 of that dungeon when you came back, so I really hope you implement the original system.

(4) Will you re-introduce the experience system of BG - the one where xp gained from any source were distributed among the party members (in opposition to the system of NWN2 and - partially - BG2/ToB where every party member just got the full amount of gained xp)?

(5) Will there be xp for picking locks/disabling traps? And how will you solve the problem of really low skill values (in BG/AD&D your thief for example could reach 100%+ in trap/lock/stealth skill, but in NWN2/D&D the whole system is different) - I'm really curious about this too.

(6) Not a question, more of a begging: Please use the social skills as often as (reasonably) possible.

(7) Will the treasure/loot be determined as in BG or random as in - for example - IWD?

Phew, that were a few more than just "a few questions". :innocent:

Thanks in advance for answering, I'll keep crossing fingers that you will be able to finish your project.
If you succeed  - and with the fantastic IWD remake being short before completion as well as Europa Barbarorum  II coming along sometime in the future - I will be busy for the next ten years I assume.
Which is a good thing.
*secretly dreams about BGII/ToB being remade as well *


P.S.: Sorry for limited english, it's not my native language.

Modifié par Irvin Trout, 08 juillet 2011 - 10:31 .

[Shallina]

(1) Will support MP as the OC of NWN2 does, wich mean it will be possible but it will probably have many bug. Since everything is scripted around Gorion ward mainly, as in the OC where everything is scripted around the knight captain.

(2) Kaedin current release will be the one in BGR. I doubt I'll update to the next. I only updated it beceause the older one got some nasty bug.

(3) Ennmy won't respawn in dunjeon, but in exterior it's implemented. All plot and combat monster are spawned by script, wich mean it's easy to tweak. This may be altered when we'll test the whole thing.

(4) It's a mix of the 2 for now. But XP table are different in DnD3, so this will probably tweaked when we'll got a complete build for balancing the XP rate the player acquire with the lenght of the campaign and the targeted final xp.

(5) For now we are using default NWN2 system for this. I think there is more a problem about how to slow the XP progression rather than awarding XP given the lenght of the campaign and the final targeted level.. Basically it would be cool to not reach the max lvl with 1/3 of the game completed. I'am keeping trap and locked door as a XP lever at the moment, if  we don't have enought XP in game it's a way to put more. Getting to the other side of the door, or not be roasted by a trap is al ready a big reward .

(6) I have been messing with this a little, and Drew got idea as well. Some conversation are just made for it. But it will be done more seriously on a polish pass.

(7) For now only plot item and "special items" with attached custom script are in game. (except for the TOSC part wich is finished) The way we'll do it will probably be deternimed by full test run, we'll take the best option.
That mean, fixed loot with no random loot at all, or custom 2da drop table. NWN2 default are to much magical and doesn't fit at all the orignal game. In default NWN2 they can give enchentement at 3+ for items as loot around lvl 10, while in BG there is only one 3+ usable  item wich is drop in durlag tower. The others 3+ are cursed and will make you kill everyone in sight.

Modifié par Shallina, 08 juillet 2011 - 12:03 .

[Arkalezth]

Shallina wrote...

(2) Kaedin current release will be the one in BGR. I doubt I'll update to the next. I only updated it beceause the older one got some nasty bug.

So is it already implemented (like in Risen Hero if you have played it)? Not just compatible, right?

[Shallina]

The final implementation of Kaedrin pack is for the current build. Wich mean when the build will be completted it will be in a release candidate state for those aspect.

The previous version was al ready fully functional.

[Irvin Trout]

Thanks a lot for the quick answer, Shallina.
And for the detailed answer as well - very much appreciated.
Back to pondering about char concepts for BGR now

[drechner]

Sorry I've been absent from this thread for a week. It definitely seems like there's some passionate discussion going on here, which is great. We’re obviously huge fans of Baldur’s Gate as undoubtedly most of you are.

I can remember playing Baldur’s Gate for the first time, the thrill of clearing Nashkel’s mines, the frustration with Cloakwood’s many traps, and the lust for revenge directed at Sarevok. I loved the game and it moved me in a way that no other game had at that point in my life, whether it was the first time or the 51st time playing it. The most exciting part of the game for me, though, was the engaging story with its complex politics interwoven with a divine plan for vengeance, all surrounding the most interesting, memorable (I’m looking at you, Minsc), and fun NPCs for any game at the time.

To me, the characters were such an integral part of the story that changing them would change the very fabric of the experience. Our goal is to recreate this amazing experience—the experience of playing Baldur’s Gate—while keeping true to the aspects that were most crucial to this experience—characters, and story. It is because of dedication to this that we have decided to only allow NPCs to level to a restricted number of classes. We don’t want Imoen to be a figher or Khalid to be a bard. Are those good classes for those NPCs? Absolutely not. But we don’t want the player to change our beloved characters, thus changing the narrative and the most important aspect of the game, in a manner that will harm the experience of the player.

Now, I’m not saying I don’t like player choice, I *love* player choice, but I would rather stay true to the original characters of the game which drove this decision. Furthermore, we want to protect players from making a poor choice of leveling Xzar to a barbarian or Alora to a ranger. Of course, all our work will be the community’s to do with as you please, so this decision can be changed at any time. We’re also trying our best to fit in the SoZ party system before release, so this will hopefully be yet another option.

The bottom line is this: we want to create the best Baldur’s Gate experience for the player and we believe the best way to do this is to stay true to the characters and story themselves.

Thanks for staying interested in the project, everyone. We greatly appreciate your support, and above all else, your dedicated passion for this project.

Modifié par drechner, 08 juillet 2011 - 09:39 .

[The Fred]

Shallina wrote...
we should have done a green room with only one NPC in it, you speak to it, and bam you are lvl 30, and it gives you a + 20 sword of doom.

A full screen message will appear, and it will say : Congrats, you just beat the game !!!

That's what powergaming is in a solo game.

I think I have to disagree with you completely there. Personally, I hate overpowered junk, easy games, and cheating. However, I see powergaming as a sort of challenge. Just as you have to make tactical choices in combat to get the best results, you have to make intelligent choices in leveling to get the most from your character. No matter what you do, this will still exist to a certain extent. For example, I could make Immy a Rogue/Wizard without taking any levels of AT. By contrast, smarter leveling and feat/skill choice will make her much more powerful. If I take the Rogue levels at the right time and max out Tumble I can increase her AC. I can take a better feat selection and ranks in Spellcraft for saves. Non of this is the same as being given an uber sword of doom at the start of the game.

In the original BG, you could make whatever multiclassing choices were legal. You could turn Immy and Safana into mages, Xzar into a Cleric and Branwen and Shar-teel into a Thieves. I never took Thieves other than Immy and Safana because I wanted a Find Traps/Open Locks focus, so my party stats were taking precedence over flavour and RP. That was the original.

I completely see the point of view which says that because 3rd Ed rules are more flexible, the game will be more like the original with a few restrictions. I don't think that not having those restrictions would horribly misbalance the game or anything, though. In fact, I'd rather be able to powergame my NPCs than have to make my own party to get them the way I want them.

[The Fred]

drechner wrote...
We don’t want Imoen to be a figher or Khalid to be a bard. Are those good classes for those NPCs? Absolutely not. But we don’t want the player to change our beloved characters, thus changing the narrative and the most important aspect of the game, in a manner that will harm the experience of the player.

Incidentally, whilst I agree that making free multiclassing a non-default option is perhaps the best choice, people changed around the NPCs a lot in the original anyway, admittedly with character editors or mods...

G3's Level 1 NPCs mod
Shadowkeeper

Once you've played the vanilla game a few times, being able to enjoy the same characters whilst still having a fresh party (or conversely to meet new characters without having a worse or even different party) would, I'd say, actually add to the game experience. In my last no-reload run I made Imoen a Bard, for example, and Viconia an (illegal) Cleric/Thief. That said, this is akin to cheating as far was what's "legal" goes, so for me the best compromise would be to disable multiclassing but have it as an option (which, luckily, it sounds like it will be, given how easy it is to switch it back on).

[Tanlaus]

I would imagine, like with the OC, there will be a preety simple mutilclass file to download for people who decide to change their NPCs around.

Same with SoZ party creation. There's already an override that gives players an SoZ book in their inventory. So, while party creation would be cool to have as a campaign feature, work arounds already exist if it is problematic to implement.

Personally I love the approach Drencher and Shalina are taking to give us as faithful an interpretation as possible of the single player game. There was a whole community built around modding that in an engine that was not easily moddable... I'm sure we'll see similar if not even greater efforts here.

[Luminus]

In the end, included or not, people will find a way to bypass any restrictions if they really want it. But it's just preferable for it to be official.

By the way, it was mentioned various times already that you will, but why are you including a set version of Kaedrin's pack?
Kaedrin is constantly updating his pack with new content, so why limit it to one version that will get outdated very soon?
It would be better, in my opinion, if you leave it open so people can use the newest version if they want to.

And it's not only new stuff, but bug fixes too that will be incompatible later on.

Modifié par Luminus, 10 juillet 2011 - 06:39 .

[thepiratebay]

Agree with 99% of what was said so far. Fantastic mod, fantastic work.

I'm not sure about the point of player choice though. I don't think the players you're going to have need any protection. You're making a mod for NWN almost 6 years after it's release, so you're likely dealing with fans extremely familiar with 3E rules (newbies are rare at this stage). You're also remaking an even older game (10+ years) so your core group is going to be very experienced and they'll know what to do. No one is going to make Xzar a barbarian.

NPCs in the original were all exciting and interesting, but not all became fan favourites. A major reason was that 1) they weren't well-made or 2) they didn't suit your needs and weren't flexible. This is a major issue with some characters, who were practically useless if you waited too long to acquire them (a notable tweak pack always you to reshape them from level 1 and is very popular).

The most popular characters in this game tend to be the most uber and well-made ones. Minsc, Imoen, Viconia, Coran and Kivan were not hurting for stats and all had great builds.

FYI, Imoen can make an excellent hybrid fighter. Combining fighter feats with swashbuckler feats and a few rogue levels, she can achieve multiple attacks (early access to two-weapon fighting feats), a massive damage bonus (sneak attack, insightful strike) and a solid BAB (with weapon finesse).

While I'm sure it'll be an outstanding game either way, just making a point. Smart and creative gamers can really do amazing things when given the freedom...and that looks to be who you guys are, and who your audience is going to be.

[Shallina]

Why a set kaedrin pack ? really simple, beceause we got custom spells, and ability. And that can't work with a default Kaedrin pack.

[Luminus]

Shallina wrote...

Why a set kaedrin pack ? really simple, beceause we got custom spells, and ability. And that can't work with a default Kaedrin pack.

What will happen if we have Kaedrin's pack in the override also? Will it override it anyway but maybe cause problems? Will it ignore it?

[BartjeD]

Hak files trump override right? Then it ignores all files that are also in the .hak's for BG remake.

[Shallina]

Kaedrin Pack bugs for compagnion/henchmen. Only player character works correctly, he is using the on lvl up event to adjust correctly certain class, and that event isn't fired for henchmen.

If we package BGR correctly, having Kaedrin in the overide or what ever you want won't change anithing that we don't want to be changed (design or technical reason).

If we include Kaedrin pack, unrestricted multiclassing for henchmen will have bugs for some of Kaedrin class if you mod that part, since Kaedrin doesn't support it fully. Basically no Kaedrin class for henchmen.

Modifié par Shallina, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:51 .

[The Fred]

Shallina wrote...
Kaedrin Pack bugs for compagnion/henchmen. Only player character works correctly, he is using the on lvl up event to adjust correctly certain class, and that event isn't fired for henchmen.

Really? I thought it was. Anyway, you could fire the event from the level-up screen when the confirm button is clicked, if you wanted.

[Quixal]

I eagerly await this project whatever the specifics of character options. Go team.

[BartjeD]

Dum.. dum ...dum waiting  

Modifié par BartjeD, 20 juillet 2011 - 09:33 .