15232 réponses à ce sujet

[Alesia_BH]

Well, the game allows a lot of things that disturb balance. I find that restrictions are necessary in order to maintain some semblance of challenge.

There are certain things like scroll duplication via Simulacrums, Staff of the Magi invisibility, and Cloak of Mirroring use that are clear cases to my mind. Then there is the grey area which for me includes Rod of Resurrection healing, Vecna, item recharging and things of that nature.

Everyone is free to draw lines where they like of course- I'm just trying to decide where mine should be and was curious to hear opinions. That's all.

I'll just decide on my own I suppose.

Best,

A.


Btw. I'm finding the Staff of Striking troubling because with it, Ashoka can backstab as well as a conventionally equipped thief. That seems a bit much given her other abilities. That said, with the mods I have installed, she does have a lot of ugly ahead of her so I suppose she could use the edge. It does overpower her now, but it won't trivialize the entire journey by any stretch. I'll likely allow her to recharge.

At the same time, with recharges you have a continuously available backstabbing weapon that is more damaging than anything short of the Staff of the Ram +6. And of course, upgrading the Staff of the Ram requires you to (often foolishly) sacrifice access to 50% Crushing Resistance. Seen from that point of view, a rechargeable Staff of Striking seems a wee bit powerful for something that can be bought for ~800 gold straight out of the Chataeu...

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 21 octobre 2011 - 03:52 .

[Alesia_BH]

Btw. I just read your comments Grond0. We seem to be on the same page.

Best,

A.

[corey_russell]

Grond0 wrote...

I think the potential issue is one of game balance.  There are various types of resources in the game, which seem to be designed to be used in different ways.  There are the permanent items (such as armour), the use once items (such as potions) and the charged items (such as wands).

Potions are clearly not designed to be re-used, but it is not entirely clear what was intended to happen with charged items.  As Alesia said such items are rechargeable in PnP and as far as I know the ability to recharge within Baldur's Gate is deliberate rather than an engine oversight.  However, it might be thought this logically makes less sense - if the designers wanted an item to be used continuously why not just make its ability permanent (or x times per day).

I think the question is whether the ability to recharge items seriously unbalances the game.  Certainly it can have an effect - an example would be making multiple uses of the rod of resurrection in order to win a combat that was really beyond the party (this done in the knowledge that the rod(s) can be recharged for the next combat).  As you say the potential control on this is the availability of gold, but (as I understand from hearsay) that's not much of a constraint by the end of the game.  In any event gold is effectively unlimited right from the start if you want to abuse thief stealing.

On balance I agree with you that recharging should be allowed and I have only occasionally restricted it in my games.  A major reason for that is that I don't think charged items do actually unreasonably unbalance the game.  Sure they can make it easier - for instance continuous use of wands in BG1 can make that a trivial challenge - but I think they are rather less unbalancing than use of many permanent items (Azuredge, robe of Vecna, simmy helm etc). 

Therefore, I think it is entirely reasonable to use charged items extensively during some runs in order to experience the different feel that gives gameplay and would certainly support Ashoka's use of the staff of striking.  However, I can also understand why some players might want to restrict use of recharging (at least for some of the time).

Perhaps your gold is a lot better with all your mod-introduced items. But in vanilla, I am constantly running out of gold. I can never get all the things I want and definitely cannot recharge a bunch of wands/etc. I like to sell/buy back the cloudkill wand you get in Chateau Irenicus that has one charge, but the buy back cost is so high I often cannot do it. I would say that's pretty balancing.

But if mods add items/gold that significantly increase the cash flow of the players, and now buying back lots of wands is viable, I don't see how you can fault the original designers. I think the recharging of items is balanced in vanilla.

[Stworka]

corey_russell wrote...


Perhaps your gold is a lot better with all your mod-introduced items. But in vanilla, I am constantly running out of gold. I can never get all the things I want and definitely cannot recharge a bunch of wands/etc.

1. Kill every drow in Natha and sell their gear to the duergars.
2. Become evil and farm town watch
3-10 More..

Vanilla or not, it works.

[Alesia_BH]

SCS and Ascension don't add gold or high value loot- you can just pick up a few extra potions with SCS though that is more than compensated for by enemy use of potions.

Tactics does interjet loot to an extent that I personally find unbalancing, but Grond0 and I aren't using that and one can always counterbalance the extras in some ways.

As for gold in Vanilla, you can accumulate effectively infinite sums straight out of the Chateau if you wish. It's one of the many "allowable" things that you have to pass over to get a balanced play-through.

Anyhoo, we seem to be getting a teensy bit off topic now...

For the record, I'll likely allow Ashoka Staff of Striking recharges. At the same time, I'll continue to restrict Rod of Resurrection healing while leaving open the possibility of use in the Final Ascension fights. No recharging for that one of course.


Btw. As an aside, I respect your committment to vanilla Corey, but you may want to consider experimenting with mods- SCS and Ascension in particular. You may find that they aren't quite what you think.

With SCS, if you simply stick to the potions for NPCs (with bottle breaking) and AI improvement components, the game isn't changed much really- the enemies are just smarter and make better use of game world resources. The flavor of the original isn't compromised at all.

As for Ascension, that was actually written by David Gaider. When it was decided to release ToB as an expansion, it became necessary from a business stand point to rush it out while SoA was still installed on player's hard drives. Ascension was written by Gaider on his own time in the months following ToB's release  to compensate for some of the short comings that necessity imposed on the original. It doesn't compromise the feel of the original. It's more of a "what should have been" composed by one of the original game's lead designers. There is a good chance you'd enjoy it.

Since trying both, I've never remotely considered going back and I am pretty sensitive about mods that compromise the feel of the original. They are worth considering. Those are the only two I'd recommend.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 21 octobre 2011 - 04:52 .

[Serg BlackStrider]

@ Alesia

Whilst you are addressing Corey about SCS and Ascension I personally have to admit that you are quite convincing... And I definitely will make one separate copy of both BG1 (SCSI/II) & BG2 (SCSI/II & Ascension) after finishing (in one way or another) of my current run to try them (I think with my *second-on-top* alter ego - Gnomish Illusionist/Thief)

Modifié par Serg BlackStrider, 21 octobre 2011 - 05:56 .

[Alesia_BH]

It's definitely worth trying Serg.

If you go with SCS (AI and Potions for NPCs w/ Breaking) and Ascension, what you essentially end up with is the original game enhanced by countless labor of love hours spent by people who understood the original game intimately- whether from and insider perspective (like Gaider) or an outsider perspective (like DavidW). I tend to see them less as "mods" and more as remedies to the constraints imposed by economic cost benefit analyses in the game's production phases.

Anyhoo. I do feel that anyone who enjoys the game should give them a look at least.

Best,

A.

[amanasleep]

Alesia, were you still at level 8 during the Copper Coronet quests? I think your backstab should have gone to x3 at level 9.

With Staff of Striking Stalkers do become somewhat equal to a real thief in backstab potential, though certainly not equal to what any variety of F/T can achieve. Still, I don't think it's too unbalanced given the Stalker's overall slow level progression.

I am eager to hear how Ashoka adjusts to the Stalker abilities at Level 12. The tactical options are very interesting. I tried to break them once by dualing a Stalker to Cleric at level 12.

[Alesia_BH]

Yeah. She was still at level 8 then.

And of course, the Stalker backstab ceiling is comparatively low- the multiplier says all you need to know really. But with the Staff, they can backstab like a single class Thief with, say, a short sword.

Importantly, they can get into the range where they can reliably one hit ko most mages. That feels a teensy bit much to me but I suppose I can live with it...

Best,

A.

Btw. If you have any advice on Stalker play, let me know. Obviously I haven't posted much on Ashoka yet, but I'd love to hear about things I'm overlooking when I do. As I've mentioned before, I'm really new to this warrior thing. I never even used them in party play since they never fit in with tactical approaches I employed. Pointers would be most welcome.

[corey_russell]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Btw. As an aside, I respect your committment to vanilla Corey, but you may want to consider experimenting with mods- SCS and Ascension in particular. You may find that they aren't quite what you think.

With SCS, if you simply stick to the potions for NPCs (with bottle breaking) and AI improvement components, the game isn't changed much really- the enemies are just smarter and make better use of game world resources. The flavor of the original isn't compromised at all.

As for Ascension, that was actually written by David Gaider. When it was decided to release ToB as an expansion, it became necessary from a business stand point to rush it out while SoA was still installed on player's hard drives. Ascension was written by Gaider on his own time in the months following ToB's release  to compensate for some of the short comings that necessity imposed on the original. It doesn't compromise the feel of the original. It's more of a "what should have been" composed by one of the original game's lead designers. There is a good chance you'd enjoy it.

Since trying both, I've never remotely considered going back and I am pretty sensitive about mods that compromise the feel of the original. They are worth considering. Those are the only two I'd recommend.

I respect your commitment to SCS and Ascension, Alesia, but I don't think you truly understand why I play vanilla. For one, some people "need" change, or they get bored easily -- I am not this type of person. My views on Baldur's Gate is similar to my view on chess - they are both great games and don't NEED to be improved.

Now I am not saying that modifications can't improve BG, but personally I don't need or desire any. I'm quite satisfied with vanilla. Also, they are such big games I'm still learning new things, despite my many play throughs for both. My current run seeing lots of dialog I haven't seen before, being an evil/neutral party. I am seeing new things siding with Bodhi etc.

Some games demand improvement. Tic-tac-toe for example, while maybe fun for a few minutes, demands changes in it to be satisfying long term. With BG variety, complexity, and length of the game the same is not true, at least for me. Some people want BG to be closer to PnP - I have no such desire. Some need more NPC's, I don't need any. Some people want usage tweaks (like unlimited ammo stacking) - the game is convenient enough for me. Some people need it more challenging -- I have a lot of experience, but in no way do I think I am a grandmaster at the game, especially in a no-reload type format. It's challenging enough, and simply moving up the difficulty would probably be plenty challenge, if that were needed.

[Alesia_BH]

corey_russell wrote...
Now I am not saying that modifications can't improve BG, but personally I don't need or desire any. I'm quite satisfied with vanilla. 

Understood. And that's wonderful. If it ain't broke as they say...

SCS and Ascension aren't "needed" of course. They can be fun though.

I personally found there was little lost by trying them, and much was gained in the process. Even if I didn't like them, I could have always uninstalled them.

You may view it differently though. I respect that.

Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 21 octobre 2011 - 09:04 .

[Alesia_BH]

 Ok. I thought I'd post on one of Ashoka's recent battles to get us back on track. 

This was Mekrath. I'll post on it in some detail because it was a fun fight and it illustrates some of the tactics Ashoka will be using against mages. Feeback would be appreciated.

I'll note that Ashoka actually had to do this twice due to a crash. Every now and then, when i fiddle with my inventory or spell slots, the game quits. I'm not sure if it's a common problem, but it's happened to me with BG since day one. 

In the first fight, Ashoka got a very quick and easy kill. 

Mekrath was Stoneskined when Ashoka approached. She stealthed in, and pelted him him with Darts of Stunning (the Stun effect goes through Stoneskins). He was Stunned and then dropped. Easy as can be.



Post crash, Ashoka was less fortunate. Mekrath made his save and his pre-buffs fired. Ashoka activated her Ring of Air Control and withdrew. Mekrath in turn went with Wilting and Web (both evaded by Ashoka). He then summoned a pair of Mordy Swords.

When ProMW expired, Ashoka hit Mekrath with a Dispelling Arrow. Contingency: Stoneskins fired


Mekrath then protected himself with Mantle, and went on the attack. Ashoka withdrew to the Shadows.


Once Mantle expired, Ashoka looked to go on the offensive, but Mekrath used his Trigger and vanished.


Ashoka drew him out with her Efreeti. And while the Efreeti was quickly Death Spelled, Ashoka had another window to resume her attack.


Mekrath used his Sequencer here and vanished again. He then Healed, and refreshed his Stoneskins.



With Ashoka and Mekrath both invisible and looking for openings, Ashoka decided to fight by touch and sound. She walked through the hallway to find his position. Next, she listened for his Globe of Invulnerability. When she heard it expire, she placed a sword on the ground behind him. Then, she targetted the sword with a Potion of Firebreath and circled around. Mekrath was hit and then revealed. Ashoka followed up with Arrow of Dispelling -> Dart of Wounding.




Now unable to cast, Mekrath was on the ropes. Ashoka quickened the process with Acid Arrows.



Fin!

Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 21 octobre 2011 - 09:42 .

[corey_russell]

Alesia_BH wrote...

corey_russell wrote...
Now I am not saying that modifications can't improve BG, but personally I don't need or desire any. I'm quite satisfied with vanilla. 

Understood. And that's wonderful. If it ain't broke as they say...

SCS and Ascension aren't "needed" of course. They can be fun though.

I personally found there was little lost by trying them, and much was gained in the process. Even if I didn't like them, I could have always uninstalled them.

You may view it differently though. I respect that.

Best,

A.

If it really is that easy to un-install them, perhaps I should try installing them, just to say I have actually tried them and still prefer vanilla after doing so. Probably should wait till my run is over (one way or another) before doing so, don't need any errors in my saved games.

[Grond0]

I've found the problems with mods occur when you have lots of them and want to uninstall just one. The Weidu programme theoretically allows you to uninstall one mod like this, but it does this by uninstalling all the later ones and then reinstalling them automatically - this system does not seem to work at all reliably. Uninstalling manually from the last one installed and then back through in reverse order has always worked fine for me, but is a real pain if the mod you want to change is early in your list as you have to uninstall and then reinstall everything after it. However, if you only have 1 or 2 mods this is not a problem.

Installing SCS2 to start with will certainly take you a bit of time, but uninstalling it would be quick and easy.

[Gate70]

corey_russell wrote...
If it really is that easy to un-install them, perhaps I should try installing them, just to say I have actually tried them and still prefer vanilla after doing so. Probably should wait till my run is over (one way or another) before doing so, don't need any errors in my saved games.

SCS fixes a lot of things but changes the feel of the game IMO. I'd rather live with the quirks than have them ironed out but fully understand why many prefer the refined experience. Glad I tried it several times though as it helps appreciate other no-reload runs.

I prefer Ascension to vanilla as the original lackeys for Melissan made little sense to me and the Demogorgon / Illasera / Gromnir battles also benefit (Yaga Shura is more of a grind and from memory Abazigal can be...extremely frustrating) . If you haven't looked at the description before it is worth a read even if you don't try the mod; weidu.org/ascension/Ascension-WeiDU.txt

Edit, appreciate what Grond0 is saying but I'd say mod after a run and be prepared for a re-install when done. It's just tidier and a vanilla install can be done fairly quickly.

Modifié par Gate70, 21 octobre 2011 - 11:05 .

[Alesia_BH]

corey_russell wrote...

If it really is that easy to un-install them, perhaps I should try installing them, just to say I have actually tried them and still prefer vanilla after doing so. 

Sure. Or you might want to keep an open mind about it. It's up to you.

They are easy to uninstall. And of course. you can make a backup copy of your original install first if you are nervous about it.


Best,

A. 

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 21 octobre 2011 - 11:04 .

[Alesia_BH]

Quick Note on Ashoka's Game:

It looks like Ashoka may not be completing the Planar Prison Quest anytime soon. She got that nasty triple Yuan-Ti Mage spawn in Mekrath's Lair which means she's likely to get it in the Prison as well.


It's a bit too early for her to tangle with that. She could Stealth by it in Mekrath's Lair, but she won't be able to in the Prison.

I haven't decided what's next for her...

Best,

A. 

[Alesia_BH]

Gate70 wrote...

SCS fixes a lot of things but changes the feel of the game IMO.

I can understand that. It depends on the components you select to an extent of course.

In Corey's case, I'd definitely recommend giving anything that was drawn from the Tactics mod a wide berth. Tactics was good for what it was, but it feels very dated to me now. There are also a lot of elements that compromise "feel". 

I'd only recommend the AI and NPC potions components for someone like Corey.

I prefer Ascension to vanilla as the original lackeys for Melissan made little sense to me and the Demogorgon / Illasera / Gromnir battles also benefit (Yaga Shura is more of a grind and from memory Abazigal can be...extremely frustrating) .

Yeah. Ascension really does feel like "the end" to me. The combat and additional dialog (especially in Balthazar's case) make a lot more sense. It feels well considered rather than rushed.

The first few times I used Ascension, I skipped Tougher Yaga Shura and Tougher Abazigal. I always install both now, but skipping those two might not be a bad move for a first time Ascension player. 

Anyhow. Feel free to do whatever you like Corey: this is all just goofy fun in the end.  I do think you might enjoy them though- especially the Ascension ending.

Best,

A.

[polytope]

corey_russell wrote...

If it really is that easy to un-install them, perhaps I should try installing them, just to say I have actually tried them and still prefer vanilla after doing so. Probably should wait till my run is over (one way or another) before doing so, don't need any errors in my saved games.

If you are planning to install Ascension Yaga Shura/final battle then definitely install the SCS smarter Yaga Shura component, because it fixes some quite annoying bugs (The lieutenant thief crashing the game, and Yaga's damage resistance never wearing off, as was intended).

About recharging wands, well, the game never sets you up to fight anyone armed with three wands of heal with 10 charges each, so it is unfair on enemies to recharge the RoR.

I notice that for the ToB expansion Bioware limited the number of charges of the new wands (spell striking/cursing) to 5 and 8 apiece, which arguably indicates the intent to nerf them.

Modifié par polytope, 22 octobre 2011 - 01:20 .

[Alesia_BH]

Btw. Does anyone here do the Planar Prison Quest early in SCS? I'd like to know if and when it is possible to avoid the triple Yuan-Ti Mage spawn. I don't have always toughest dungeon spawns installed, just the increased difficulty one.

If I could avoid that spawn, I'd probably change my quest order.

[corey_russell]

Veene the dragonslayer, I mean level 12 thief > level 11 cleric

Veene decided it was time to get rid of these acorns we've been carrying around. We got framed for killing some paladins, but Garren Windspear cleared our name. In return, we felt obligated to rescue his daughter. Most of the battles here were pretty smooth. Battles of note:

* It was really hard to get a clear shot on the first batch of golems stuck in the long hallway. Finally though Korgan could target one with his +3 returning throwing axe and get to work.
* Mass of undead - we used hasted summons initially, and the party used ranged. Took a while...Korgon got charmed TWICE even though his saves are all negative except for breath (which is 2)...we were able to dispel it each time but enough was enough and we activated his berserk to stop that stuff. I may want to purchase a charm helmet, though with a few levels he should always save.
* Samia and her party - mass of summons again. The clerics spammed hold person x2 and Jaheira plague of insects - the result was devastiing - the entire enemy party got held even the invisible one!  We didn't have any invisibility dispel available (thanks to level drains from the vampiric mists), so had to wait until the hold broke and the single guy threatened us.
* Golems, golems, golems...Korgan's throwing, returning axe killed them all with a few helped by Jaheira's returning throwing dagger
* Conster - we had 5 skeletons giving him trouble, but true seeing and a breach finished him.
* Firkraag - on my last run (all paladin run) I had a disaster here. I asked my wife if I should go after him and she said go for it. This time is a lot different though, since I have arcane backup. Speaking of arcane, Edwin soloed Firkraag completely. Edwin started with a cloudkill out of sight. This didn't alarm Firkraag, guess he occassionally gets noxious odors in his abode. So Edwin kept casting cloudkill plus via wand, as soon as he was able to. Firkraag almost healed himself but wasn't in time and he succumbed.

After defeating Firkraag, Viconia leveled to 14 and now can cast finger of death - oh really? In that case, we feel bold enough to deal with the Shadow Dragon we passed by much earlier. But first, a purchase of greater malison for Edwina. We changed out spells, have 3 lower magic resistances memorized, doom on all the divine casters and greater malison. Decided this was a no-reload might as well get the shadow dragon wardstone.

We headed to Umar Hills Temple area. Walked in and summoned 2 ariel servants and 2 fire elementals (druidic) and a carrion crawler. Yoshimo laid 5 traps all the around the dragon. The party equipped range weapons, hasted, remove fear, and Edwina opened the battle with a lower magic resistance. The party ranged, waiting until Edwina can cast one more lower resistance before casting spells. Next round Thaxxssyllyia wing buffeted. Korgan activated ilbratha (mirror image) and charged with his axe. Edwina got the 2nd lower magic resistance in, and the divine casters all cast doom. Next round the summons returned to fight the dragon, Edwina got the final lower magic resistance in, and Viconia killed the dragon with a flamestrike - a flamestrike from a level 14 cleric is no joke.

Feel really good about this party. A tad weak in the melee department, but next time Korgan gets a pip he will have 2 in dual wield and start dual-wielding which will increase it. But we have summons for any occassion and Viconia is close to getting skeletal warriors.

Even though we can't get the reward, think we will do the Unseeing Eye quest next (if we can).

Modifié par corey_russell, 22 octobre 2011 - 06:00 .

[Alesia_BH]

Nice work on Firkraag and Niz Corey!

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 22 octobre 2011 - 06:38 .

[polytope]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Btw. Does anyone here do the Planar Prison Quest early in SCS? I'd like to know if and when it is possible to avoid the triple Yuan-Ti Mage spawn. I don't have always toughest dungeon spawns installed, just the increased difficulty one.

If you play with "slightly increased difficulty" they'll spawn when your PC has 1,000,000 XP, if "significantly increased difficulty" they'll spawn at 400,000 XP.

corey_russell wrote...

Even though we can't get the reward, think we will do the Unseeing Eye quest next (if we can).

Did you talk to the stormherald? Evil priests get their quest from the temple of Talos rather than Helm.

Modifié par polytope, 22 octobre 2011 - 07:29 .

[Vaclavc]

Alesia_BH wrote...
Btw II. I'm curious: what is the consensus on recharging limited use items? I'm leaning towards restricting it in my runs.

I agree with Corey and Grond. Recharging is costly, it is part of the game and anyone can limit its use if he/she wishes to. There are other, potentially more unbalancing items then recharged wands.

On the other hand, Thalantyr in High Hedge can sometimes recharge items wit insane amounts of charges (e.g. 100 charges in Wand of Heavens).
It is very expensive, but then, you do not need to wory about recharging to the very end of BG1


Good luck to all no reloaders! Corey, congrats on successful fight with Firkraag.


V

Modifié par Vaclavc, 22 octobre 2011 - 08:46 .

[Alesia_BH]

Quick Note on Ashoka's Game:

Ashoka is about to complete the Planar Prison Quest. Here is her current character record and inventory.



If your response upon seeing these screenshots was "Wait...What?...I thought..." then there is good reason for your confusion. I sent Ashoka back to the Chataeu.

If you are wondering why i'd do such a thing given that she was handsomely equipped and done with half the Chapter 2 Quests, I'll note that this is a big part of the equation...


That's the spawn she can expect in the Planar Prison. And that's a job for Harmony+ Potion of Absorption. The Triple Yuan-Ti spawn on the otherhand, would be non-trivial for mid-level Ashoka.

That's not the sole reason why I opted to restart her. I hadn't thought much about Ashoka's routing and management before begining her adventure and unconsciously ended up treating her like Alesia. But the care and feeding of a Stalker is quite different from that of a Bounty Hunter. I felt it would be more expedient to send her back to the Chataeu and do things at least kind-of-sort-of right. than finish up an awkwardly openined game. So back she went.

As for the differences...There are lots of small ones, but here is the big picture. With Alesia, it makes sense to build a war chest right out of the Chataeu and then sally forth. The overriding management issue is insuring that you are overstocked when the bane of all Bounty Hunters arrives- the dreaded Sphere levels. Once you get your Maze Traps, it's smooth sailing untill late in ToB.

I can't say I really understand Stalker management yet, but it seems clear that Ashoka needs to take a more deliberate and measured approach to tactical tool kit building. She also has to be careful not to bottom out.

Put simply, managing a Stalker is like living on a budget. Managing a Bounty Hunter is like living off a trust fund untill you are ready to collect retirement.

Anyhoo. I'll post on the Planar Prison and then I'll likely rush her through Umar and the Keep. I may or may not post on the latter two quests depending on how things go. 

Best,

A.


@Polytope- Thanks for the info! So you know, I have "Significantly Increased Difficulty" spawns installed."

@Vaclavc- Understood. I definitely agree that it's a personal choice as well. Thanks for sharing!

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 22 octobre 2011 - 10:37 .