15228 réponses à ce sujet

[corey_russell]

Thanks for the tips everyone! I only have one slot for mirror image, looks like I need to memorize at least one more. SI:N, I will keep that in mind as well - only a few of us can do that actually (e.g., have the spell), but hopefully that will change.

[Alesia_BH]

I hope it helps.

I should note that in vanilla, protection from AoE spells via Mirror Image works just like that from physical attacks: there is always a chance that an attack will get through so it's best not to bank on it working. Also, if the enemy mage in question is running True Sight and you do not have SI:D up, you may loose your Mirror Images before the Wilting goes off of course.

It may also be worth mentioning that the AoE on Wilting in particular is a bit funny. Even if it is targeted directly on you, it will often fail to cause damage if you are moving quickly (Boots of Speed + Oil of Speed for example). I'm inclined to view this as an engine quirk and often deliberately slow down when a Wilting is en route, but it may be worth keeping in mind in a truly desperate situation.

Best,

A.

[AnonymousHero]

ussnorway wrote...
I didn’t allow per-buffing but I do agree with expecting a rough battle...

Perth didn't use nearly as many buffs in my recent Barbarian game -- I wonder if it could be just the HLAs? Seems a bit much just for that. (Of course it can be hard to judge without access to the full battle log.)

ussnorway wrote...
It’s the difference between my knowledge and what PUK’ could reasonably have expected to encounter whilst raiding the home of a mage adapt.

It's fair enough to not want to metagame, of course. I try to avoid metagaming too, but only by always buffing my mages/clerics with every conceivable available buff for almost every encounter.

ussnorway wrote...
I don’t have a screenshot of the stun... it was fired as part of a (‘Chain?’) ‘Contingency’ but at the time of triggering he was not damaged or stunned/ detained or even under attack so why did it fire/ target A’Lisia?

PW:Stun works if the character has less than 90HP. It is a bit odd to have an enemy-targeting contingency with a PW:Stun, but I think we're basically talking engine limits for .

ussnorway wrote...
The notable bugs are all posted & the fixpack aversion is a personal preference issue...

That's fair enough.

I think SCS 2 is pretty much predicated on having the fixpack installed, so it's not really an option for me to run without it even if I wanted to . There's no way I'm going back to vanilla AI at this point.

Modifié par AnonymousHero, 19 décembre 2011 - 06:43 .

[Gate70]

Coym, CG male half-orc barbarian.

Jail-break.
After freeing Jaheira and Minsc I send them off with Imoen. I'm careful to rage whenever I see a mephit or a mage, but a cambion powers through my DUHM rage. I retreat to glug potions of healing and return to kill it. Several traps are also extremely painful, forcing repeated rests. I console myself by killing a vampire on my way out.

[corey_russell]

Good luck Gate70! It's nice to have others in the BG 2 thread like myself, with the recent demise of many PC characters in BG 2, it almost seems like Irenicus is "winning".

[Gate70]

Thanks. I'm dreading the traps more than anything. Figure I have to go solo to work them out, did the trick in BG1 after far fewer runs than I'd done with parties.

Coym, CG male half-orc barbarian levels 9-10.

9. The circus.
My barbarian instincts cause me to rage against shadows. I reach Kalah with my third rage, and quickly overwhelm him.

9. A change of ownership at the Copper Coronet.
Two rages are required against the slaver wizards. My third deals with Tabitha, then I kill the beastmaster and his animals one by one. Hendak takes care of Lehtinan.

9-10. Solve the skinner murders.
Rejiek Hidesman and Vellin Dahn may have escaped but two rune assassins and ghasts do not. Even with ineffective backstabs the assassins force me to consume four potions of extra healing. Somebody called Darcin Cole is also involved according to a cryptic letter.

Perhaps I am ready to investigate the slaver compound now.

[Alesia_BH]

Anonymous Hero wrote...
It's fair enough to not want to metagame, of course. I try to avoid metagaming too, but only by always buffing my mages/clerics with every conceivable available buff for almost every encounter.

Yeah. I tend to do the same with recon and/or comprehensive buffs.

I played without pre-buffing a few times many years ago, but found that it detracted from immersion ultimately. For most encounters, there are lots of hints within the game world that an encounter is upcoming and for others, stealth can clue you in. And if I were really adventuring through Amn I'd certainly be gathering all the clues I could and erring on the side of caution. In the no pre-buff runs, I often had to deliberately ignore the obvious. Skipping pre-buffs was helpful from a balancing viewpoint, less so from a role playing standpoint.

I personally prefer allowing enemies full pre-buffs and letting the PC actively gather intelligence. For me, that works better from both a balancing and role-playing viewpoint. This is all personal preference of course though. Do what ever marks sense.

Best,

A.


Btw. I've never seen PW:Stun loaded into a Chain Contingency. However, the quick casting time (and consequent lack of an incantation/casting animation) can make it look like it has been. The SCS Mages will target those with less then 90 Hitpoints as AH noted. Personally, I protect against Stun whenever I'm facing a mage and my hitpoint total is less than 90.

Btw. I have the "Only Select" SoA Mages get HLA spells component. I've been content with that. Perth isn't among them.



 

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 20 décembre 2011 - 05:54 .

[ussnorway]

Actually I’m pretty sure that I never said that... doesn’t sound like me?

Any way I took a second look at the screenshots I have and noticed that he did cast ‘Improved Alacrity’ just after the ‘Time Stop’ so your idea about him casting fast enough to confuse me seems like the most reasonable explanation but to be perfectly honest I think the community outrage that PUK’s demise seems to have caused is very touching... thanks guys.

Modifié par ussnorway, 20 décembre 2011 - 05:52 .

[Alesia_BH]

ussnorway wrote...
Actually I’m pretty sure that I never said that... doesn’t sound like me?

Yuppers. It was AH. Careless cutting paired you name with the quote.

Sorrry! It's been changed.

Best,

A. 

[Incantatar]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Yeah. I tend to do the same with recon and/or comprehensive buffs.

 

Might be true that recon and research can count for most prebuffing but there are so many engine quirks, enemy behaviour, enemy charateristics like saving throws and thac0 and other stuff you only know by metagaming. e.g. which triggers, sequencers SCS mages tend to use, or like you say protecting against stun when your hp are <90hp. In PnP D&D i often had to remind my players that their characters don't really have the knowledge of certain things they themselves did know. And i'm pretty sure when i did a campaign like SCS BG(2) with a solo player he would certainly be killed within a very short time.

[DMWW]

Alesia_BH wrote...
Btw. I've never seen PW:Stun loaded into a Chain Contingency.

Neither have I

The SCS Mages will target those with less then 90 Hitpoints as AH noted. 

The actual condition is that they'll target either mages, or anyone with fewer than 60% of their maximum hit points. Keying it to exact hit point totals would seem a bit unfair.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Hey DMWW, could you add another condition for prebuffing mages (and clerics), namely: when they can reasonably expect combat? (that sounds like a lot of work though and probably would be incompatible with mods?)

[corey_russell]

Cody and his band of 4 level 11 clerics/level 11 mages continue their adventures...

Cody decided enough was enough time to get the main story line going. Dealing with Lassal and the defectors was easy with MMMs - as for the "contact", 3x doom and 2x hold person spelled his doom, fittingly.

When we got to the vampires' hideout we managed to save Haz and he "helped" us. I put his "help" in quotes because of the following screenshot:

He often did aganazer's scorcher, not caring that party members were in the way! Great help there Haz...We got the mace of disruption, went to Cromwell and had him forge the IMoD, and rested and came back.

For Tanova, we took no chances. We sent skeletons (host of them) and spiders, one at a time to drain her spells, then when she had almost nothing left the party charged and took her down.

For the ambush lower level, we didn't do AoE because Haz would be caught in the blasts. So instead we did false dawns and magic missiles and MMMs - this was effective, and Haz finally met his demise here. Lassal challenged us but could put up no resistance.

Time for Bodhi herself. We opened with 4x lower magic resistance and a bolt of glory. Two aeriel servants were assisting. Then we did things like flamestrike and magic missiles and doom. She had enough and fled.


What's strange is that the screen said "Hanna two levels drained" even though she had the IMoD equipped? I checked her after the battle but she wasn't drained - guess it says it but doesn't actually drain. Never noticed that before with the IMoD.

Now that we have two sure-fire ways to protect against level drain and can summon 5 REAL summons, we think the shadow dragon should be next. Till next time...

[Alesia_BH]

DMWW wrote...
The actual condition is that they'll target either mages, or anyone with fewer than 60% of their maximum hit points. Keying it to exact hit point totals would seem a bit unfair.

Noted. Perhaps that means I'll be spending a bit less time under Free Action.

[Thrar]

I'm wondering, what are the experienced players' opinions on safely running a wild mage? Would it be possible to keep the casting surprises from turning too nasty and get a reasonable chance of success?
It's a class that I (and surely many others alike) have always found very entertaining and at the same time powerful, but I can't recall seeing one entered into this challenge.

[corey_russell]

Grond0 has entered several wild mages into the challenge - they all ran into a demise of one sort or other, though most of them weren't due to wild surges.

One participant had a wild mage in BG 1 and got a demon summoned -- this is actually good if the target was an enemy but he was buffing himself and hence the target of the demon, so he got killed instantly.

[Alesia_BH]

Thrar wrote...
I'm wondering, what are the experienced players' opinions on safely running a wild mage? Would it be possible to keep the casting surprises from turning too nasty and get a reasonable chance of success?

Getting one through BG1 wouldn't be a problem: you can simply refrain from casting via your book and hence evade the Wild Surge problem altogether. 

I'm undecided about BG2. I know I'd be loathe to try it in my install since simply losing a spell equivalent action at a key moment could lead to death, however, I wouldn't be terribly shocked if it were feasible in vanilla.

Were I considering it, I'd study the Wild Surge chart carefully and see whether there is a point on the chart where it is possible to prebuff against all possible adverse effects. Then, I'd try to ascertain whether I could safely reach the point where I could count on rolls there and above.

It could be interesting, though it isn't something I intend to fiddle with anytime soon.

Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 20 décembre 2011 - 04:27 .

[Alesia_BH]

Incantatar wrote...
Might be true that recon and research can count for most prebuffing but there are so many engine quirks, enemy behaviour, enemy charateristics like saving throws and thac0 and other stuff you only know by metagaming.

Sure. It's not at all clear to me how a concept like that of a saving throw, for example, would be understood by individuals imbedded within the BG world. Is it an aspect of the physics of their world which is understood? Is it something yet to be revealed by the thinkers of the day? Is it an unknown and unknowable? I haven't the slightest idea.

My tendancy is to think of those things as comphrended by characters within the game world though understood in different terms. Not all would possess such knowledge of course in the same way that not all humans understand, say, electiricty and magnetism, but the scholarly well might.

I do of course agree that there is a distinction between what we know and what a character could theoretically know within the game world. It's not clear to me how large or small that gap is though exactly. Once again, it seems to me that what matters in the end is whether players are comfortable with the choices they make.

Best,

A.

[Grond0]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Thrar wrote...
I'm wondering, what are the experienced players' opinions on safely running a wild mage? Would it be possible to keep the casting surprises from turning too nasty and get a reasonable chance of success?

Getting one through BG1 wouldn't be a problem: you can simply refrain from casting via your book and hence evade the Wild Surge problem altogether. 

I'm undecided about BG2. I know I'd be loathe to try it in my install since simply losing a spell equivalent action at a key moment could lead to death, however, I wouldn't be terribly shocked if it were feasible in vanilla.

Were I considering it, I'd study the Wild Surge chart carefully and see whether there is a point on the chart where it is possible to prebuff against all possible adverse effects. Then, I'd try to ascertain whether I could safely reach the point where I could count on rolls there and above.

I've experimented a fair amount with a wild mage in BG1.  As Alesia says it's not difficult to complete that game without using any spells - I'm actually writing a brief script / walkthrough at the moment on how a generic PC can complete the game safely (using only items usable by all characters). 

The chance of a wild surge killing you directly is low so you would have a good chance of getting through BG1 even if you were using casting as buffs before fights.  There's a far greater chance, however, of nasty things happening during fights so you would need a lot of luck if relying on aggressive magic use.  Also note that things that don't kill the caster are still likely to cause mayhem in a party, so the wild mage is probably better suited to solo play.

I don't think it's possible to entirely eliminate the chance of nasty surges, but you could certainly protect against them almost entirely in BG2.  Given the potential power of wild magic (effectively combining improved alacrity with wish resting) I can certainly believe that could be a good trade, but I haven't explored its use in BG2.

[amanasleep]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Thrar wrote...
I'm wondering, what are the experienced players' opinions on safely running a wild mage? Would it be possible to keep the casting surprises from turning too nasty and get a reasonable chance of success?

Getting one through BG1 wouldn't be a problem: you can simply refrain from casting via your book and hence evade the Wild Surge problem altogether. 

I'm undecided about BG2. I know I'd be loathe to try it in my install since simply losing a spell equivalent action at a key moment could lead to death, however, I wouldn't be terribly shocked if it were feasible in vanilla.

Were I considering it, I'd study the Wild Surge chart carefully and see whether there is a point on the chart where it is possible to prebuff against all possible adverse effects. Then, I'd try to ascertain whether I could safely reach the point where I could count on rolls there and above.

It could be interesting, though it isn't something I intend to fiddle with anytime soon.

Best,

A.

If you use Chaos Shield and Imp. Chaos Shield without cheese (ie only one of each active at a time), then for any casting you will have a 5% chance of surge and a minimum roll of 41 on the table.  The most dangerous outcomes are 47 (caster polymorph to a wolf), 48 (target changes randomly), and 70 (caster weakened).  Beyond those, there is a significant chance of spell fizzle with no useful effect (your loss of spell equivalent action).  In addition, buffs during battle which target self are subject to these effects, which means far more danger, as there are several disabling effects in the table, such as hold, blind, polymorph, and flesh to stone.  I believe they allow saves in most cases, so negative saves could forestall these.

With cheese, it is possible to have a combined +105 modifier to rolls on the table by stacking 2 chaos shields in a minor sequencer and 3 Imp Chaos Shields in a Chain Contingency.  This guarantees normal casting.

Interestingly, with high enough caster level, Nahal's provides good protection against the worst effects, though vastly more randomness in casting.  For instance with CS, ICS, and Nahal's at level 10 you avoid wolf polymorph and target change.  At level 30 you avoid caster weakened.


edit: I forgot that CS and ICS do not stack with each other.  This adds the possiblity of getting silenced or dizzy, or more siginificantly of becoming the target of your own spell.

Furthermore, I think it should be noted that the function of Nahal's removes one issue, which is the loss of spell equivalent action in combat.  Since Nahal's does not count toward the 1 per turn spell limit, wild surge fizzles merely cost a 1st level slot, and can be tried again.

In addition, since Nahal's allows you to cast spells known but not memorized, you can cast PI's and Simulacrums prior to combat and let them risk the wild surges while you maintain prebuffs with item based defenses or attack as a melee caster to support them.  Use of Limited Wish by surviving clones can refresh yur level 1 slots.

I think that a Wild Mage solo run will sorely test one's tolerance for leveraging the immense cheese potential of the class.  Used properly it is probably wildly overpowered, while placing any limits on Nahal's basically means you are a failed save or badly timed debuff away from possible death if you combat cast yourself.

Given the obvious power of Nahal's, I open it up to everyone: what self-imposed limits would you place on its use in a solo run?

Modifié par amanasleep, 20 décembre 2011 - 07:04 .

[Grond0]

amanasleep wrote...
With cheese, it is possible to have a combined +105 modifier to rolls on the table by stacking 2 chaos shields in a minor sequencer and 3 Imp Chaos Shields in a Chain Contingency.  This guarantees normal casting.

edit: I forgot that CS and ICS do not stack with each other.  This adds the possiblity of getting silenced or dizzy, or more siginificantly of becoming the target of your own spell.

Unless my install is not typical it's not quite as good as you set out.  For me the chaos shields cast through sequencers / contingencies are themselves subject to the chance of a wild surge so you can't rule out the possibility of low number rolls on the table.

I'm not sure how easy it is for a wild mage to have permanent protection from petrification available.  Other things that could be difficult to handle when you're trying to buff include 50 (monsters summoned), 54 (demon summoned), 65 (different spell of same level cast) and 88 (cow falling on target).  95 (destroy all gold on target) might not be too welcome either)!

[amanasleep]

Grond0 wrote...
I'm not sure how easy it is for a wild mage to have permanent protection from petrification available.  Other things that could be difficult to handle when you're trying to buff include 50 (monsters summoned), 54 (demon summoned), 65 (different spell of same level cast) and 88 (cow falling on target).  95 (destroy all gold on target) might not be too welcome either)!

I believe the Flesh to Stone effect allows a save so negative saves is protection enough.

In turns of the surge effects, I agree that all spells cast are subject to surges.  My only point is that away from combat you can take precautions or otherwise keep from dying.  At worst, you deal with the results of the surge, rest, and try again.  Annoying, but not the end of the run.  Putting Chaos Shields in sequencers is important (if you allow it) so that their effects stack.  You could theoretically have a minimum 86 roll at the start of the game (if you can find the necessary scrolls to memorize Chain Contingency).  I would wait until Level 13 to be truly safe, since that would prevent cows.  To prevent gold destruction you could follow a policy of keeping all gems/scrolls found rather than selling them immediately, and there are probably even more creative ways to protect your wealth.

Without CS stacking I worry chiefly about the cow, different spell of same level, polymorphs, and charm.  I think I saw once in another thread somebody may have analyzed the spell effects of the cow (school, etc) and figured out how to prevent it.  I do not know if all of the polymorph effects allow a save, or if any of them are permanent.  Does anyone know if a permanently polymorphed solo character can interact with a temple to remove curse?  Charm can be easily prevented with items.  Different spell of same level seems like the hardest to prepare for, but also the least likely to occur and has a decent chance of being harmless if it does.

Modifié par amanasleep, 20 décembre 2011 - 08:52 .

[Alesia_BH]

A number of years ago, I CLUAed up a high level Wild Mage and did some fiddling along the lines of what Amanasleep is discussing. I came away thinking there was potential for unreasonable power but at the cost of variance. That's not necessarily a good trade in a No Reload context.

My current style relies pretty heavily on timing and precision. I'd find playing a Wild Mage quite horrible now even with the potential to cast oddles of Level 9s, through the Dweomers. A Wild Mage is pretty much the last thing I'd want to be.

Best,

A.

[Gate70]

Coym, CG male half-orc barbarian level.

Bad day for the Slavers.


I have to DUHM rage to break their door down. I rage each mage and trap, resting in the Copper Coronet after each set is exhausted. I have to glug three healing potions thanks to an acid trap and Captain Haegan. Then I kill two trolls one at a time.

I return via the sewers, clearing hobgoblins, kobolds and myconids. I decide to rest and get blocked in by a carrion crawler. I have no rages left so fight it, almost killing it before it paralyzes me. There is nothing I can do while it gently shreds me.

Another irritatingly short run in Amn then.

[AnonymousHero]

amanasleep wrote...
Charm can be easily prevented with items.

It's been a while since I played a pure class mage. Do they have any options for permanent charm protection other than the SoTM?