15226 réponses à ce sujet

[Alaestr]

Grond0, I am happy to tell that your fix worked! Thank you. You might just have saved Joniren's life.

[Alaestr]

Joniren, the brave blade. Update No.9 and Finale. 

 

I have succesfully cleared illithids' dungeon  illithids dungeon, beholders' dungeon (mislead was a key spell, since beholders can't see through it  and I could whack as much as I could; I left Hive Mother, because she can see invisible units), Kuo-Tai and killed Aldanon with traps. Unfortunately on my way to the freedom, I got Joniren killed by a bunch of respawned Kuo-Tai and the Drow (with Glabrezu and two stone golems) guarding the exit from the Kuo-Tai lair. They surrounded me and there was nothing I could do. They had running true sight, breaches at hand and I was unprepared. It was really my mistake, which I could easily prevent from happening by taking smaller portions of enemies one at the time or buffing beforehand, but I got cocky (and a little bit distracted by talking to my girlfriend) and as a result got the beautiful bard killed. I know that all ladies will mourn him deeply as well as his brothers in arms. I know I will. 

 

I got to take a break and unclench. Hopefully I will come back with a new adventurer next week. I consider creating Ranger/Cleric multi or some Assassin type character. Haven't decided yet. Maybe I will come up with another idea. Do you have any recommendations for a solo character?

[Alaestr]

Oh, the grammatical mistakes I made in the previous post! I haven't discovered "edit post" option yet. 

[Alesia_BH]

Yes, EE without SCS on a Mac

 

Stoneskin

Resist Fear

Spell Shield

SI: Conjuration

SI: Evocation

True Seeing

Improved Invisibility

Mirror Image

 

Ok. And what was his level at the time? What save bonus granting items did he have equipped?

 

I'm asking because if we are going to figure out what happened to Dostoevsky, we need to know his state at the time of the incident and then, what his enemy was capable of.

 

I don't have a copy of BGII:EE, and consequently can't check the Shade Lord's CRE file, but presumably someone can do the diligence on that for us. Once we know what options the Shade Lord had available to him, and also Dostoevsky's state, we may be able to infer what happened- or at least what could have happened.

 

Best,

 

A.

 

 

Btw. I recently installed SCS on a Mac version of BG:EE. I found the process painless, using this tool:

 

http://forum.baldurs...taller-for-os-x

 

If you'd like to use SCS during your next attempt, you may want to give it a try.

[corey_russell]

Oh, the grammatical mistakes I made in the previous post! I haven't discovered "edit post" option yet. 

If you don't see "Edit Post", click refresh - that worked for me.

 

Sorry to hear the end of your run Alaestr - fighter/thieves are excellent solo class, and are even better if you use like a dwarf or gnome for the short save bonuses.

 

@Cuttyshark - I know the vanilla shade lord casts finger of death, which can kill someone full health. No idea if that applies to your situation Cuttyshark.

[Alesia_BH]

Condolences on the loss of Joniren, Alaestr. The Kuo-Toan tunnels can be very dangerous: there's no shame in losing a character there- especially given that this was your first published No-Reload attempt.

 

As for your next character, please do feel free to choose whatever you like. I've always avoided R/C multis and duals on the grounds that I don't think that they should have access to high level druid spells, but I wouldn't mind seeing one in action. Interestingly enough, we've never had a successful R/C No-Reload here- despite the fact that it's one of the game's more powerful builds.

 

Best,

 

A.

 

Btw. You should be thanking Gate70 for your hot-fix, not Grond0. 

[Serg BlackStrider]

I don't have a copy of BGII:EE, and consequently can't check the Shade Lord's CRE file, but presumably someone can do the diligence on that for us. Once we know what options the Shade Lord had available to him, and also Dostoevsky's state, we may be able to infer what happened- or at least what could have happened.

 I have BGII:EE and here are his CRE files from NI: one, two, three. Strange enough...
 
And here is his script:

Spoiler

 

IF
Killed([ANYONE])
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetInterrupt(FALSE)
ReallyForceSpell(LastTrigger,MAKE_SHADOW)
SetInterrupt(TRUE)
END
 
IF
Delay(12)
See(NearestEnemyOf(Myself))
THEN
RESPONSE #100
ReallyForceSpell(NearestEnemyOf(Myself),SHADOW_DRAIN)
END
 
IF
Global("pwstun","LOCALS",0)
See(NearestEnemyOf(Myself))
!Name("Mazzy",NearestEnemyOf(Myself))
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetGlobal("pwstun","LOCALS",1)
SpellNoDec(NearestEnemyOf(Myself),WIZARD_SYMBOL_STUN)
END
 
IF
Global("spellstrike","LOCALS",0)
OR(2)
See(NearestEnemyOfType([0.0.0.LONG_BOW]))
See(NearestEnemyOfType([0.0.0.CLERIC_ALL]))
THEN
RESPONSE #100
ReallyForceSpell(LastSeenBy(Myself),WIZARD_SPELL_STRIKE)
SetGlobal("spellstrike","LOCALS",1)
END
 
IF
Global("silence","LOCALS",0)
OR(2)
See(NearestEnemyOfType([0.0.0.LONG_BOW]))
See(NearestEnemyOfType([0.0.0.CLERIC_ALL]))
!Range(LastSeenBy(Myself),15)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetGlobal("silence","LOCALS",1)
SpellNoDec(LastSeenBy(Myself),CLERIC_SILENCE_15_FOOT)
END
 
IF
See(NearestEnemyOf(Myself))
CheckStatLT(Myself,1,STONESKINS)
HitBy([ANYONE],CRUSHING)
HPPercentLT(Myself,25)
!StateCheck(Myself,STATE_REALLY_DEAD)
Global("Prep2","LOCALS",0)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
DisplayString(Myself,40199) // Chain Contingency—Mirror Image
ApplySpell(Myself,WIZARD_MIRROR_IMAGE)
DisplayString(Myself,3302) // Chain Contingency—Spell Turning
ApplySpell(Myself,WIZARD_SPELL_TURNING)
DisplayString(Myself,40240) // Chain Contingency—Mislead
ApplySpell(Myself,NPC_BLADE_BARRIER)
SetGlobal("Prep2","LOCALS",1)
END
 
IF
See(NearestEnemyOf(Myself))
Global("finger","LOCALS",0)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SpellNoDec(NearestEnemyOf(Myself),WIZARD_CHROMATIC_ORB)
SetGlobal("finger","LOCALS",1)
END
 
IF
See(NearestEnemyOf(Myself))
!HasBounceEffects(LastSeenBy(Myself))
Global("finger","LOCALS",1)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SpellNoDec(NearestEnemyOf(Myself),WIZARD_FINGER_OF_DEATH)
SetGlobal("finger","LOCALS",2)
END

 

So, the only options I could see here are level 20 Chromatic Orb (should be foiled by SI:Evocation) or indeed Finger of Death (as Corey pointed out) with -2 penalty for save vs spells.

[Alaestr]

Oh, I am deeply sorry to the parties involved for the confusion around the hotfix. My thanks go to Gate70 then. I was looking for the fix on the Internet and couldn't find one, so I am glad Joniren could have fun with traps, not that he had a lot of it left.

 

I have already created an R/C character, but still considering Illusionist/Thief, Wizard Slayer/Thief (might be a little underwhelming), Berserker/Thief (could hold up in melee) or just multi Fighter/Thief. I haven't play any Fighter/Thief type character before, a little bit scared of dualling in SCS, but will see.

 

Perhaps I will break the R/C curse of no-reload, Alesia. I am really looking forward to cheesing the hell out of the class (I am a dirty player) . 

Thanks for the advice, Corey. My next character will for sure be some kind of a fighter/thief. 

[Alesia_BH]

And here is his script:

 

Was the Shade Lord running Blade Barrier, Cuttysark? From your description, it sounds like the Efreeti was close to the Shade Lord. How close was Dostoevsky? Are you certain Dostoevsky's Stoneskins were still up? What was Dostoevsky's HP max?

 

I'm asking because at L15, running II as his only save buff, Dostoevsky's save v spells would have been above 1- assuming he wasn't wearing the Claw of the Kazgaroth. Blade Barrier can do up to 64HP of damage on a failed save. A Blade Barrier could easily explain simultaneous chunky deaths. Blade Barrier is described as an Evocation spell, but there are some versions of it that are schoolless.

 

So, the only options I could see here are level 20 Chromatic Orb (should be foiled by SI:Evocation) or indeed Finger of Death (as Corey pointed out) with -2 penalty for save vs spells.

 

What about the Shade Lord's special abilities? Can you check the details on those?

[Serg BlackStrider]

 

What about the Shade Lord's special abilities? Can you check the details on those?

 

I'll try if you point me where to check for them. The only innate ability I can find is Berserk.

[Alesia_BH]

IF

Killed([ANYONE])
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetInterrupt(FALSE)
ReallyForceSpell(LastTrigger,MAKE_SHADOW)
SetInterrupt(TRUE)
END
 
IF
Delay(12)
See(NearestEnemyOf(Myself))
THEN
RESPONSE #100
ReallyForceSpell(NearestEnemyOf(Myself),SHADOW_DRAIN)
END
 

 

Those probably just apply the blindness and level drain status effects that Cuttysark mentioned, but let's confirm that.

[Serg BlackStrider]

Well, I've tried hard but can't find neither *Make Shadow* nor *Shadow Drain* spells (both by find tool and manual browsing of SPL files)... There are several Level Drain spells in *innate* category (SPL files) but none of both those abilities. Maybe I'm doing something wrong (and I'm not a pro with NI...).

[Alesia_BH]

Well, I've tried hard but can't find neither *Make Shadow* nor *Shadow Drain* spells (both by find tool and manual browsing of SPL files)... There are several Level Drain spells in *innate* category (SPL files) but none of both those abilities. Maybe I'm doing something wrong (and I'm not a pro with NI...).

 

Understood. Thanks for the attempt. 

 

I'm fairly certain those abilities don't apply an insta-kill effect. For the time being, I'm inclined to operate under that assumption. If someone can confirm that definitively, it would be helpful.

[Serg BlackStrider]

BTW, that SHADEL.BCS script is not unique for BGII:EE (he has the same script in vanilla) so you could try to search for those spells in your install if you know how and where to look for them.

[Alesia_BH]

BTW, that SHADEL.BCS script is not unique for BGII:EE (he has the same script in vanilla) so you could try to search for those spells in your install if you know how and where to look for them.

 

Noted.

 

Best,

 

A.

[cuttysark]

Thanks for all the help, guys.

 

He was L15, though he first encountered the shade lord at L14, and the Lord didn't seem to have changed from that encounter (he didn't cast any buffing spells, didn't cast spellstrike, etc). Dostoevesky's save vs. spells was 5/1/3/0/2, with II, the ring +2 and the belt of inertial barrier.

 

So yeah, finger of death would have a good shot at killing me. But again I don't remember seeing any casting or any announcement that the Shade Lord had cast anything. Also on repeated (10 or so) play backs from the quick save I took just before I entered combat, he never cast anything. Just melee and that drain level/blindness/breath thing.

 

Every other time I've sent my efreeti into combat, the Shade Lord killed him in melee and then turned him into a shadow. He never casts any spells at me. Once the efreeti is a shadow, the shade lord walks towards me. But that time the efreeti got chunked. Maybe that made a difference? But I haven't been able to replicate that either.

[cuttysark]

Dostoevesky had 76 HP. The shade lord wasn't running blade barrier or any other buffs.

 

IF
See(NearestEnemyOf(Myself))
!HasBounceEffects(LastSeenBy(Myself))
Global("finger","LOCALS",1)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SpellNoDec(NearestEnemyOf(Myself),WIZARD_FINGER_OF_DEATH)
SetGlobal("finger","LOCALS",2)
END

 

I don't know exactly how to read these scripts. It must have been this, I guess. How exactly is it triggered, and why wouldn't it be triggered in all my other replays?

[Gate70]

Hi

1st no need to apologise for crediting Grond0. He deserves it

2nd the fix won't be elsewhere as I just made it up based on what I could see

3rd the Shade Lord has Spell Turning. Is it possible you wilted yourself or similar?

 

I can see chromatic orb and finger of death

 

This is the sort of time where you wish the game told you what happened when you die. Someone (whistles innocently) has raised a feature request in December for the Enhanced Edition to do this, time will tell whether it is a) possible and accepted.

 

Shadow drain is spell id 3878, I can't find much more than that.

 

Serg, I'm still learning much of the scripting but it is something like the below. Does that help?

IF
See(NearestEnemyOf(Myself)) (I can see an enemy)
!HasBounceEffects(LastSeenBy(Myself)) (the enemy hasn't got spell turning or similar active)
Global("finger","LOCALS",1) (I have a Finger of Death spell memorised)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SpellNoDec(NearestEnemyOf(Myself),WIZARD_FINGER_OF_DEATH) (Ready...aim...fire)
SetGlobal("finger","LOCALS",2) (I no longer have a finger of death spell memorised)
END

[cuttysark]

I was casting Mordy's sword at the time.

[Alesia_BH]

Dostoevesky had 76 HP. The shade lord wasn't running blade barrier or any other buffs.

 

Noted. In that case, we can rule out Blade Barrier.

 

I can see chromatic orb and finger of death

 

Yes. Assuming Make Shadow and or Shadow Drain don't apply insta-kill effects, we appear to be left with Chromatic Orb and Finger of Death. We can rule out Chromatic Orb since Dostoevsky was running Spell Immunity:Evocation and also had a save v spells of 2 (as a reminder, COrb offers a save v spells with a +6 bonus).

 

Finger of Death is a sensible explanation, although we can't know for certain.

 

Best,

 

A. 

 

 

BTW Cuttysark, in cases where we have allowed reloads on the grounds that a death was caused by a bug, two conditions have been satisfied: 1) the cause of death was known; 2) that cause was unambiguously a bug that subverted developer intent. 

 

As an example, shortly after I installed an early version of ToBEX, my bounty hunter, Alesia, was killed by a series of Horrid Wiltings, cast by Sendai- despite the fact that Alesia had 100% magic damage resistance at the time via Potion of Magic Shielding + BoIB. Through testing, I confirmed that magic damage resistance was not working in my install. Then, I and other forumites confirmed that this was a bug caused by ToBEX: http://www.shsforums...-thread/page-24

 

In that case, we ruled that a reload was justified: we had a known cause and that cause had been determined to be a bug that had subverted developer intent. I transferred my save to a ToBEX free installed, and then continued my run.

 

In a similar but distinguishable case, one of Serg's party members, Cassia, was disintegrated in a Sphere of Chaos, despite having 100% magic resistance. We checked the Sphere of Chaos SPL file and discovered that the disintegrate effect was suspiciously flagged Bypass Resistance, while all the other disadvantageous effects were flagged Not Bypass Resistance. We suspected this was a bug -and I still suspect that it's a bug- but since we couldn't, at the time, unambiguously demonstrate that the flagging was an error that had subverted developer intent, we concluded that a reload wasn't justified, though it very nearly was.

 

The point here is that we have a reasonably clear standard for determining whether a reload is justified. The burden of proof lies on the party seeking a reload and the evidentiary standard is moderately high. In Dostoevksy's case -where we have no certain cause, no identified bug, and at least one candidate legitimate explanation (FoD)- the conditions for invoking the justifiable reload rule aren't satisfied. Ultimately, it's your game and your decision, however.

 

It is a common occurrence for characters to die under mysterious circumstances. Sometimes the exact cause remains unclear even after investigation. We have not permitted reloads in these cases. Instead, we've done our best to determine what may have gone wrong, and then offered our condolences. Sadly, I'd suggest that we should follow that precedent here, although, again, it's ultimately your decision.

 

Personally, I'd love to see you roll up a Tolstoy and avenge Dostoevsky.   Best of luck regardless of what you choose.

 

(NW: This is just my take and I'm just one member of our community. You should all feel free to share your opinions.)

[corey_russell]

FoD seems like a likely cause. I don't know why with reloads, be different results. Ideally someone could use BG EE with the same solo class as Cuttyshark and see if they die to FoD too. But as Alesia mentioned, if you had immunity to FoD (such as save vs. spells at -3), or 100% magic resistance, that would seem like a bug - but you've said spells was 2, well within striking distance of FoD, we know it's in the shade lord's script, so the the death is likely not a bug. I tend to agree with Alesia's analysis in this case.

[cuttysark]

Well, I've decided to let Dostoevsky die in peace, though I want to make another sorcerer run soon. I learned so much about spells this run.

 

I wondered whether, since the genie got chunked, that instead of the Shade Lord using his innate turn-into-shadow ability against the genie, his script made him used his one-ability-per-round to cast finger of death on me. I did have spell immunity:necromancy active the very first time I battled him, so maybe he had a finger of death still memorized. So I set up a scenario where the Shade Lord went out of visual range, killed a summons, and then I entered his visual range. Maybe that would trigger the script. Still no luck. If it was finger of death, I guess his regular combat script is just overriding that particular spell this time around, and there was just a very specific set of circumstances that triggered it during the fatal battle.

[polytope]

 I have BGII:EE and here are his CRE files from NI: one, two, three. Strange enough...
 
And here is his script:

[spoiler]

 

IF
Killed([ANYONE])
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetInterrupt(FALSE)
ReallyForceSpell(LastTrigger,MAKE_SHADOW)
SetInterrupt(TRUE)
END
 
IF
Delay(12)
See(NearestEnemyOf(Myself))
THEN
RESPONSE #100
ReallyForceSpell(NearestEnemyOf(Myself),SHADOW_DRAIN)
END

Those probably just apply the blindness and level drain status effects that Cuttysark mentioned, but let's confirm that.

 

AFAIK the scripting identifier LastTrigger() is somewhat glitchy, it was the source of a bug (addressed in the G3 fixpack) in the Asylum "crushing walls" trap which sometimes killed a person who hadn't triggered it, likewise I think the Shade Lord might have incorrectly applied the MAKE_SHADOW spell to cuttysark's protagonist rather than his summon (I remember one of Grond's wild mages dying here unexpectedly).

 

I've never seen this happen in my games - the SCS shade lord doesn't have that gimmick of turning people into shadows - but ofc that doesn't mean it's not a bug, just a v rare occurrence.

 

Btw. I'd like some advice on my current game, party is all around 1.9m exp (15th level mostly); would it be suicide to attack Tahazzar and his band of demons? I'm guaranteed to get ALL of the demons due to tougher spawns, not to mention the demons themselves are tougher.

 

I haven't done WK with SCS for more than a year and my memory is kinda rusty, but iirc the Staff of the Magi is the only way a sorcerer can protect themselves from the succubus' charm, since it's a dead magic room right beforehand, but I think Twisted Rune (without cheese) is harder than Tahazzar. I have at least found a Spell Trigger scroll, so Eryx needn't start the fight unbuffed...

[Gate70]

Polytope, excellent explanation and I have reproduced this behaviour. Clearly a bug in my opinion and exactly as described by cuttysark.

Dorn is about to die. Note the skeleton warrior.


With Dorn dead the skeleton warrior turns into a shadow.


Will log this issue on the EE site.
Cheers

[cuttysark]

AFAIK the scripting identifier LastTrigger() is somewhat glitchy, it was the source of a bug (addressed in the G3 fixpack) in the Asylum "crushing walls" trap which sometimes killed a person who hadn't triggered it, likewise I think the Shade Lord might have incorrectly applied the MAKE_SHADOW spell to cuttysark's protagonist rather than his summon (I remember one of Grond's wild mages dying here unexpectedly).

 

That would explain why I don't remember seeing any casting animation, and also fit in with the summons dying at the same time. (Perhaps since it was chunked, the genie didn't register as a valid target for MAKE_SHADOW, and so the spell was transferred to my character.