15235 réponses à ce sujet

[Blackraven]

How come? There's no way SS stops Wand in any SCS version.

Ah, then what I said refers only to Wish Breaches.

[Aasim]

Okay- I've modified the spell a bit. Tested it out: 

1st Wish genie effect dispels Spell Shield

 

2nd; if there's no more SS stoneskin is correctly dispelled

 

Uploaded.

[Aasim]

This and the fact that Aerie tried to use Harm on him caused me a question of how Rakshasa's spell level immunity actually work? 

It's bugged I think. Here's the relevant thread.

[Serg BlackStrider]

It's bugged I think. Here's the relevant thread.

Thanks for the link, Aasim! SCS Breach works fine vs them in my setup. Now I just need to check //Make sure to set the sectype from MAGICALATTACK (4) to NONE (0) because any spell with sectype MAGICATTACK (4) is hardcoded to burn through any/all protections/deflections/turnings/traps (including opcode 102).// for all those spells to find out which ones will work (or not). 

Thanks again!

[Aasim]

I think it might work fine in either case  - you use v21 . Probably the most stable option.

[Serg BlackStrider]

I think it might work fine in either case  - you use v21 . Probably the most stable option.

Yeah, I know   My initial question was why MMM and Harm (might) work vs them.

 

edit: just checked them both and I think I understand now why - both' spell effect is *Create weapon* so they are not a spells Raks are immune to due to their spell level immunities. In this case, I think, PvMW (which Suldanessellar Raks have plenty) should stop both.

[Alesia_BH]

This and the fact that Aerie tried to use Harm on him caused me a question of how Rakshasa's spell level immunity actually work? 

 

Magically created weapons are implemented inconsistently. Some are treated like weapons, others are treated like spell effects. As a consequence, some are affected by spell level immunity and some are not. Note that Aerie killed Ruhk with the Polymorph:Flind halberd.

 

Trying Harm was an experiment. I has no idea whether that would work or not.

 

My opinion is that all magically created weapons should be treated as weapons, not spells. ProMW or ProNW should work against them, but spell level immunities and spell protections should not.

 

Best,

 

A.

[Serg BlackStrider]

Magically created weapons are implemented inconsistently. Some are effected by spell level immunity, some are not. Note that Aerie killed Ruhk with the Polymorph:Flind halberd.

 

Trying Harm was an experiment. I have no idea whether that would have worked or not.

 

The engine only treats the fire portion of MMM as a spell. Rakshasa's are immune to the fire portion of the MMM damage, but not the piercing portion.

 

Best,

 

A.

Got it, thanks! 

[Alesia_BH]

 

I haven't touched the wand. The Wand doesn't (in techical terms) cast any spell at all. It "casts" the effects of Breach.

 

 

I understand. I think we should patch that.

 

As per the consistent Breach component, the Wand of Spell Striking: Breach and the spell Breach should, by intent, work the the same way. The Wand of Spell Striking Breach behavior is, to my mind, the clearest case of a bug- much clearer than the Wish case. Here we have explicit developer intent. Quoting from the Consistent Breach Component Read Me:

 

"Once this component is installed, the Breach effect of the Wand of Spell Striking will behave in exactly the same way as the Breach spell."

 

The Wand of Spell Striking Pierce Magic effect is bypassing Spell Shield as well.

 

Will check. All I did was make this spell cast Breach spell (as it appears in your game already) on everybody, per description. 

 

 

I noticed that you caused Wish to cast the spell Breach. Can we do it the other way? Rather than changing the spell Wish to cast standard Breach on multiple targets, can we add Wish Breach to the Ardanis/Spell Shield file and make what ever other changes are necessary? I'd prefer to persevere the classic mechanic, where Wish-Breach bypasses Spell Turning, etc, and is stopped by Spell Shield and Spell Shield alone. Our version bounces off of Spell Turning, like regular Breach.

 

With our version, AI mage's will Breach themselves against players running Spell Turning, unless the mage script is changed, too. That's a problem.

 

Best,

 

A.

[Alesia_BH]

How come? There's no way SS stops Wand in any SCS version.

 

Yeah. But that isn't necessarily a problem in earlier versions of SCS, depending on how you look at it.

 

In vanilla, Wand of Spell Striking Breach bypassed Spell Shield but not Spell Protections. It affected lich's. Vanilla Breach was the opposite: it was stopped by Spell Shield, but bypassed Spell Protections, and it did not affect lichs.

 

When the Consistent Breach component was introduced, the spell Breach was changed to behave like the Wand of Spell Striking. So, both versions bypassed Spell Shield, but not Spell Protections, and both versions worked on lichs. 

 

Assymetries between Breach and Wand of Spell Striking Breach only re-emerged with the introduction of the new version of Spell Shield. The new version of Spell Shield blocks the spell Breach, but not the Wand of Spell Striking Breach. Based on the quote I posted from David's documentation, we can safely conclude that this was not intended.

 

Best,

 

A.

[Aasim]

"Once this component is installed, the Breach effect of the Wand of Spell Striking will behave in exactly the same way as the Breach spell."

Eh. This only applies to Spell Turning/Deflection - Breach mechanic; Wand is also stopped. But yeah, this is a bug; it's fixable. I'll create a new wand which will cast the relevant spells then (Pierce Magic/Breach). This will have a side-effect - using this wand will cause Cowled Wizards to appear. But it wil work properly I guess.

 

I noticed that you caused Wish to cast the spell Breach. Can we do it the other way? Rather than changing the spell Wish to cast standard Breach on multiple targets, can we add Wish Breach to the Ardanis/Spell Shield file? I'd prefer to persevere the classic mechanic, where Wish-Breach bypasses Spell Turning, etc, and is stopped by Spell Shield and Spell Shield alone. Our version bounces off of Spell Turning, like regular Breach.

It works just like the spell, yes.

I don't think you can add Wish Breach there, no. It's not a "regular" spell which PCs have availabe - it's a custom made spell for SCS mages to use. Since Ardanis' code is executed before SCS Wish Breach is even created, install would very likely fail.

I'll see what I can do. (I know what, just have to figure out how!)

[Alesia_BH]

Eh. This only applies to Spell Turning/Deflection - Breach mechanic; Wand is also stopped. 

 

No. Consistent Breach's changes went beyond just Spell Protection behavior: they also intentionally changed the spell Breach so that it would affect liches, like the vanilla Wand of Spell Striking had. The intent of the Consistent Breach component was to make their effects the same in all ways, to make them consistent, as the name implies. In earlier implementations of Consistent Breach, they both behaved the same way with respect to Spell Shield as well: they both bypassed it. Symmetry was only broken when the new version of Spell Shield was introduced.

 

I'll create a new wand which will cast the relevant spells then (Pierce Magic/Breach). This will have a side-effect - using this wand will cause Cowled Wizards to appear. But it wil work properly I guess.

 

 

Understood. What about casting times? 

 

It works just like the spell, yes. I don't think you can add Wish Breach there, no. It's not a "regular" spell which PCs have availabe - it's a custom made spell for SCS mages to use. Since Ardanis' code is executed before SCS Wish Breach is even created, install would very likely fail.

I'll see what I can do. (I know what, just have to figure out how!)

 

 

Understood. My point was that we should make sure Wish-Breach bypass Spell Protections, including Spell Turning, as it did in the past, else the mage script would need to be reworked. Implement however you see fit.

 

Thanks, Aasim! Great work!

 

Best,

 

A.

[Dyara]

PS: Speaking of awesome, where are Impish Face, Sir Gawain, and Dyara?

 

I'm here ... well, I'm here, the other Dyara has died unfortunately, killed when fighting Prebek and all her companions (including herself) but Minsc became confused and/or paralyzed ...

 

Nevertheless I decided to continue playing just to become familar with BG2 again - at the moment it's still all greek to me .

[Alesia_BH]

I'm here ... well, I'm here, the other Dyara has died unfortunately, killed when fighting Prebek and all her companions (including herself) but Minsc became confused and/or paralyzed ...

 

Condolences, Dyara. That's a shame.

 

Have fun exploring Amn!

 

Best,

 

A.

[Alesia_BH]

@Jabberwock

 

Like Blackraven, I prefer arcane tanks, especially on insane. That said, there are disadvantages to using an arcane tank. Notably, it requires you to buff and rest often.

 

At current levels, I only get a few full buffed rounds out of Aerie before her short duration buffs start wearing off. And I spend more time buffing than fighting: much more time. I probably spend two minutes buffing for every minute of combat. The approach I've been taking isn't for everyone. It would seem absurd to some. It would bore others to tears.

 

It has been years since I've used Jaheira, but I've always found her to be a versatile and survivable character. When examining her damage absorption capacities, I think it makes sense to take her summons into consideration as well. All told she's a fine choice in SoA.

 

And Nature's Beauty is awesomely good- even with the SCS tweak to Blindness/True Sight.

 

 

Best of luck Jabberwock!

 

 

A.

[Aasim]

 

What about casting times? 

Understood. My point was that we should make sure Wish-Breach bypass Spell Protections, including Spell Turning, as it did in the past, else the mage script would need to be reworked. Implement however you see fit.

 

A.

Ok, Wand is done, tested, it works. 

Casting is instant (same as in vanilla game I think), because it looks odd otherwise.

I'm a bit reluctant do fully implement your suggestion above - doing this would mean adding a tweak to Spell Shield itself - it should be patched vs the new spell, which would be cast via Wish and would work just like Breach, but with the addition of Spell Protection bypass feature. It's not impossible, but I won't be able to do it today- and I'm leaving home tomorrow. I won't be able to finish it for 2 weeks at least.

 

However. 

What mages say to djinni is "I wish for my oponnents magical defences to be utterly destroyed!". I can easilly make it cast Spellstrike instead of Breach. Spellstrike effects actually fit the summoner's desire far more than Breach does.

This would not require more than 30 seconds of work.

 

Link.

[Alesia_BH]

Ok, Wand is done, tested, it works. 

 

Casting is instant (same as in vanilla game I think), because it looks odd otherwise.

 

 

Fantastic! Sounds perfect. I'll try it!

 

I'm a bit reluctant do fully implement your suggestion above - doing this would mean adding a tweak to Spell Shield itself - it should be patched vs the new spell, which would be cast via Wish and would work just like Breach, but with the addition of Spell Protection bypass feature. It's not impossible, but I won't be able to do it today- and I'm leaving home tomorrow. I won't be able to finish it for 2 weeks at least.

 

Understood. That's a bummer. The current version isn't useable in my opinion. I'd hate to see NPC mages use an L9 spell to bounce Breach off of Spell Turning.

 

It would be awesomely good if we could get a proper patch, which would preserve Wish's behavior while also permitting Spell Shield to work. That's worth waiting for.

 

EDIT: Can you upload the current version of the patch? If Spell Shield intercepts Wish-Breach before it can hit Spell Turning in the new version, then I may be able to get by with it, at least for now. In the first version, if Wish-Breach were cast at a character running both Spell Shield and Spell Turning, Breach would bounce off of Spell Turning, while the Spell Shield remained in place. If Wish-Breach hits Spell Shield first now, as it should, then I'll at least be able to use Spell Shield to prevent NPC mages from Breaching themselves. 

 

EDIT III: The problem here isn't your patch, actually. It's another problem associated with the new version of Spell Shield. Breach hits Spell Turning before it hits Spell Shield. Just tested in v30 without your patch.

 

However.  What mages say to djinni is "I wish for my oponnents magical defences to be utterly destroyed!". I can easilly make it cast Spellstrike instead of Breach. Spellstrike effects actually fit the summoner's desire far more than Breach does.

This would not require more than 30 seconds of work.

 

I've had that thought, too. It has occurred to me that Wish should offer Spellstrike on all targets, rather than Breach on all targets. But in the player version it specifically says Breach. Intent is clear here. I'd prefer to preserve the original mechanic. It was a good suggestion though.

 

EDIT II: Would this screw up enemy scripts? Even though I'm not super-fond of this option, it may be the best choice for a temporary workaround.

 

Best,

 

A.

[Aasim]

EDIT: Can you upload the current version of the patch? If Spell Shield intercepts Wish-Breach before it can hit Spell Turning in the new version, then I may be able to get by with it, at least for now. In the first version, if Wish-Breach were cast at a character running both Spell Shield and Spell Turning, Breach would bounce off of Spell Turning, while the Spell Shield remained in place. If Wish-Breach hits Spell Shield first now, as it should, then I'll at least be able to use Spell Shield to prevent NPC mages from Breaching themselves. 

It should work like this already I think, regardless of ST/Deflection, SS should be taken down by it. 

Just install the last mod component (I think it's called "Spell Shield stops Wish Breach and Wand effects").

[Alesia_BH]

It should work like this already I think, regardless of ST/Deflection, SS should be taken down by it. 

Just install the last mod component (I think it's called "Spell Shield stops Wish Breach and Wand effects").

 

Did you see this edit?

 

EDIT III: The problem here isn't your patch, actually. It's another problem associated with the new version of Spell Shield. Breach hits Spell Turning before it hits Spell Shield. Just tested in v30 without your patch.

 

Best,

 

A.

[Alesia_BH]

Just install the last mod component (I think it's called "Spell Shield stops Wish Breach and Wand effects").

 

Ok. Where's the file?

 

Best,

 

A.

[Aasim]

Here, just scroll down the post.

[Alesia_BH]

Here, just scroll down the post.

 

Got it. I'll try it.

 

Someone with a G3 account should run this all by David- especially the behavior of Breach in the presence of both Spell Turning and Spell Shield. That's pretty clearly busted.

 

Illustration: Aphril casts Breach on Aerie, who is running Spell Shield and Spell Turning. The Breach bounces off Spell Turning, Breaching the caster, Aphril. Aerie's Spell Shield remains in place. This is v30, without your patch.

 

 

Hopefully we can also get word on whether he had intended Wish-Breach to bypass Spell Shield.

 

Best,

 

A.

[Aasim]

EDIT II: Would this screw up enemy scripts? Even though I'm not super-fond of this option, it may be the best choice for a temporary workaround.

No. There are no specific checks for this. 

There is a great danger involved here, and I'd hate to your PCs go due to this. Namely, due to suggestions for v30 SCS, casters now love to use low-level Spell Thrust and similar to get rid of SS (in v28 they'd use Spellstrike & similar high level stuff). 

What could happen is Time Stop - low level removal - Wish/Spellstrike on all/remove magic. 

 

Yea, saw the edit.

SS should make you immune to Breach if it works correcty. But Breach should get rid of it.

[Alesia_BH]

 

SS should make you immune to Breach if it works correcty. But Breach should get rid of it.

 

In the absence of Spell Turning, Breach interacts with SS correctly. But if Spell Turning is active alongside Spell Shield, Breach hits Spell Turning and bounces off instead of removing Spell Shield. It's busted. 

 

 

There is a great danger involved here, and I'd hate to your PCs go due to this. Namely, due to suggestions for v30 SCS, casters now love to use low-level Spell Thrust and similar to get rid of SS (in v28 they'd use Spellstrike & similar high level stuff). 

What could happen is Time Stop - low level removal - Wish/Spellstrike on all/remove magic. 

 

I noticed that. Kangaxx tried something similar using Spellstrike. It didn't work. Arcadia's buffs held.

 

If Spell Shield and GoI are active together, Spell Thrust is stopped: Spell Ineffective. It doesn't take down Spell Shield. As in the case of Spell Shield/Spell Turning in response to Breach, Spell Thrust hits the GoI before Spell Shield, apparently. This, again, is busted, I would say.

 

Aerie protecting her Spell Shield from Spell Thrust with GoI in v30.

 

@Everyone. Can someone else confirm this in their v30 install? Perhaps these issues are specific to my install?

 

@Aasim. Is there an easy way to revert to the old version of Spell Shield? The old version was sticky, on occasion, but it behaved better in other contexts. The problems with the old Spell Shield were easier to work around. I find it far too easy to keep my Spell Shield up in v30. It's easier, not harder, than in earlier versions.

 

@Anyone who can answer this authoritatively: What is the last version of SCS that used the old version of Spell Shield?

 

Best,

 

A.

[Aasim]

This then is a part of a problem on a wider scale.

a) The "breach doesn't bypass Deflection" component prevents Breach from working on SS  when used in conjunction. This could be a bug in SCS. I don't know what could be the workaround - but SCS should never use Breach vs Turning, no? Maybe Serg/Blackraven can confirm?

Just cast Spell Shield, Spell Turning and have someone cast Breach at you. 

I wrote down on SHS forums years ago that Fixpack's self-proclaimed "fixes" can easilly break fragile SCS AI scripting. I don't know what Fixpack does (or how) with Spell Thrust. Do you use "Beta" fixes? 

 

As per "old" Spell Shield - it will cause you great grief. If it's  not the problem for you  AI won't be able to remove it from your PCs ; keep in mind you won't be able to remove it from them either. The SCS "workaround" for old SS was "don't use it" - the spell is simply "unfixable" since it uses a buggy opcode. Ardanis' fix removes the buggy opcode altogether.

No modder (there were two, Taimon & Ascension64) I know of could fix stuff on core engine level, which is where original SS bug is.

Since SCS  will assume fix is there,  it will be used in it's buggy state. 

 

I had no such inconsistencies with SR tho - everything worked as it should, bar Wish - Breach. 

If you really want to try, it requires a full SCS reinstall, and commenting out with brackets  /*  code here  */  lines 433-442 in initial.tpa file.

Not recommended at all, however.