15235 réponses à ce sujet

[Alesia_BH]

 

As per "old" Spell Shield - it will cause you great grief. If it's  not the problem for you  AI won't be able to remove it from your PCs ; keep in mind you won't be able to remove it from them either. 

 

I'm aware of how the old Spell Shield works. It's not a problem in the players hands with self policing. On the rare occasions (~1/8) when it sticks, I just recast Spell Shield as though it had been removed. The end effect is the same: I've lost a L5 in either case. It's fine. It's not a problem. Easy work around.

 

And I'm aware that the AIs Spell Shield will stick on occasion, possibly often, if the AI uses the old Spell Shield. That's fine. I'm willing to grant the AI that advantage.

 

At present, the problems with the new Spell Shield are more problematic. For me, it's easier, not harder, to keep the new Spell Shield up in my v30 install- even with the AI aggressively trying to remove it. 

 

I'd still like to know whether anyone can replicate the v30 issues in their installs?

 

Best,

 

A.

[Alesia_BH]

This then is a part of a problem on a wider scale.

 

Maybe. We still need to replicate this behavior in another v30 install. At present, we can't rule out the possibility that these problems are specific to my install.

 

 Do you use "Beta" fixes? 

 

 

No. I'm just playing with SCS v30 and Fixpack v10, sans beta fixes. 

 

Best,

 

A.

[Grimwald the Wise]

Valiant was doing just fine. Cleared slavers, and was doing fine at D'Arnise keep, then the mage saved against web and got of some deadly spells. Valiant was dominated whilst the other party member Nalia was both confused and had chaos cast upon her. I am pretty sure that Valiant and Nalia then proceeded to kill each other.

 

Hadn't even got round to assembling his party.

 

I cannot ever remember being killed there before.

[Alesia_BH]

Condolences, Wise!

 

You may be the first no reloader to be killed by Nalia. 

 

Best,

 

A.

[Aasim]

I'm aware of how the old Spell Shield works. It's not a problem in the players hands with self policing. On the rare occasions when it sticks when it shouldn't, I just recast Spell Shield as though it had been removed. The end effect is the same: I've lost an L5 in either case. It's fine. It's not a problem.

I wouldn't agree on this , since you may be de-Spell-shielded in a Time Stop or hit by several casters, when you can't mimic the SS removal, yet your buffs will remain undispellable. 

Do as it fancies you, in any case. EE2 does seem to have a working SS, so that's also an option (haven't tested extensivly, but it seems ok).

[Grimwald the Wise]

I think that it is more likely that Valiant killed Nalia and because Valiant was dominated, it was then end of game. Nalia's health was exceedingly low whilst Valiant's was OKish.

[corey_russell]

Tough break Wise. Your situations is why I usually put charm helmets/Shield of Harmony on any fighter that doesn't get automatic saves vs. domination effects. Note I said usually - I did at least once not do that (notably a quad run) and it bit me...

[Alesia_BH]

I wouldn't agree on this , since you may be de-Spell-shielded in a Time Stop or hit by several casters, when you can't mimic the SS removal, yet your buffs will remain undispellable. 

 

I keep my aura clear, allowing me to recast the Spell Shield instantly. I recast the moment it happens. And again, it doesn't happen that often.

 

An attack on Spell Shield during Time Stop will not resolve until after the Time Stop, allowing action to be taken in response. And again, Spell Shield doesn't stick that often. It happens a few times each run.

 

Setting aside the vanilla Spell Shield beholder anti-magic ray behavior -which many people believe was intended, not a bug- I can think of exactly one occasion when my character benefited from a sticky Spell Shield in a situation where I hadn't been able to cast over. I considered redoing the battle, to the benefit of the AI, but I decided against it because the encounter had been -and would have been- trivial either way.

 

I've paid very close attention to Spell Shield behavior in my runs. And in general, I pay very close attention to the response of my buffs to anti-magic attacks.

 

When used in conjunction with other Spell Protections the new version of Spell Shield is stickier, at least in my install. 

 

Basically, the old version misbehaved every now and then, and the misbehavior could be worked around on almost all occasions. The new version misbehaves consistently and is harder to work around.

 

Illustration: A moment ago I did some experimenting with the old Spell Shield in response to Wish-Breach. The sample size was 5. Spell Shield behaved correctly in 100% of cases: stopping Wish-Breach, while being dispelled. With a larger sample size, I'd expect a low but non-zero failure rate

 

I've also done some experimenting with the new version of Spell Shield in the context of the same buff regiment. Without your patch, Wish-Breach bypassed Spell Shield in 100% of cases. With your patch, it bounced off of Spell Turning, leaving Spell Shield untouched in 100% of cases. When Kangaxx tried Spell Thrust-> Spellstrike it was erroneously foiled by Spell Shield + GoI in 100% of cases. 

 

Best,

 

A.

[Alesia_BH]

 

EE2 does seem to have a working SS, so that's also an option (haven't tested extensivly, but it seems ok).

 

That's interesting. With SCS v30 installed? That could be a solution. It was also make it easier for me to take screenshots.

 

What's the latest word on BP-Ascension in EE2? How well is that working?

 

Best,

 

A.

[Aasim]

Illustration: A moment ago I did some experimenting with the old Spell Shield in response to Wish-Breach. The sample size was 5. Spell Shield behaved correctly in 100% of the cases: stopping Breach, while being dispelled. With a larger sample size, I'd expect a low but non zero failure rate

 

I've also done some experimenting with the new version of Spell Shield in the context of the same buff regiment. Without your patch, Wish-Breach bypassed Spell Shield in 100% of cases. With your patch, it bounced off of Spell Turning, leaving Spell Shield untouched in 100% of cases. When Kangaxx tried Spell Thrust-> Spellstrike it was erroneously foiled by Spell Shield+ GoI in 100% of cases. 

The latter issue will happen on all Fixpacked games,  - the mess they made out of spells isn't something I want to delve into.

Do note that this behaviour you're getting isn't tied to Spell Shield fix; it works correctly with Spell Revisions since that mod:

1) keeps Spell Thrust as it is in vanilla (and add a small AoE, but that's irrelevant for this

2) and prevent SCS from further tweaking Breach/Spell Turning issue

 

Spell Turning issue it caused by SCS's own Breach tweak.

GoI issue is caused by Fixpack's tweak to Spell Thrust, which SCS uses when it detect Spell Shield. Bad sequence of events, I guess.

If you know your way around with NearInfinity or DLTCEP, try setting the power level of Spell Thrust higher so it bypasses GoI, that might work so SCS behaves smoothly.

For Breach, I don't really know. Fwiw, I don't really like how SCS handles this, I'd prefer that SI:Abj & Spell Shield are the only spells that don't allow it through. 

[Aasim]

That's interesting. With SCS v30 installed? That could be a solution. It was also make it easier for me to take screenshots.

 

What's the latest work on BP-Ascension in EE2? How well is that working?

 

Best,

 

A.

No, sans SCS. But disabling Ardanis' Spell Shield from SCS  shouldn't have issues there.

Spell Shield does get removed, even under GoI.

I don't really follow EE news nor play it - altough I'd be surprised if no-one has tried Ascension on EE2....

[Alesia_BH]

 

Do note that this behaviour you're getting isn't tied to Spell Shield fix;

 

The problems are related to, connected to, the Spell Shield fix. They're all associated with the implementation of the Spell Shield fix within the context of a SCS + Fixpack v10 install.

 

It seems like part of you wants to defend those who worked on the Spell Shield fix. There's no need. I find blame, judgement, and accusation to be overs used concepts- especially in contexts such as this. I don't blame anyone. I'm thankful for everyone's efforts. The issue of where fault lies is not an issue. 

 

Demi, David, Ardanis, and the Fixpack team are all awesomely awesome- even if my game isn't working. Done. We can keep blame, fault, accusation, and defense out of the conversation.

 

All I care about is getting a working version of the game. I'd prefer not to revert back to my old install, because I like some of v30 changes, but my old version worked better, due to the more severe Spell Shield related issues in my v30 install.

 

The latter issue will happen on all Fixpacked games,

 

With the Fixpack installed, and the old version of Spell Shield, that wasn't a problem. GoI and Spell Shield worked fine together. It's only a problem with the new version of Spell Shield.

 

Spell Turning issue it caused by SCS's own Breach tweak.

GoI issue is caused by Fixpack's tweak to Spell Thrust, which SCS uses when it detect Spell Shield. Bad sequence of events, I guess.

If you know your way around with NearInfinity or DLTCEP, try setting the power level of Spell Thrust higher so it bypasses GoI, that might work so SCS behaves smoothly.

 

 

So, basically, your suggestion is to install your patch, skip Consistent Breach, and set Spell Thrust's level so that it bypasses GoI, as it did in Fixpack v9. That's a reasonable strategy. I can do that with ease. But that will make it easier to debuff enemies. And they won't be scripted to take account of those changes. GoI will no longer stop Spell Thrust and Spell Protections will no longer stop Breach. I'll know that: they won't.

 

I'm not convinced that that's a better approach than dealing with an occasional sticky vanilla Spell Shield. 

 

With the new version of Spell Shield installed, Breach is interacting with Spell Turning before it gets a chance to interact with Spell Shield, and Spell Thrust is interacting with GoI before it interacts with Spell Shield. Is there an expedient way to force those spells to interact with Spell Shield first?

 

Best,

 

A.

[Charlestonian Knight Templar]

Another test, in v30. Same buffs but with SI:C active. Wish was foiled.

 

I'm not certain that SI:C did the job though because, interestingly. The Spell Shield was not bypassed this time: it came down.

 

Weird, but I may have an explanation. I'll be back.

 

EDIT: Another test in V30. With SI:C active. No joy.

 

Here's what I think happened in the case where I got a positive result in v30. I was using an imported save, with spells that had been cast in my earlier version of SCS. I suspect that the prior version of Spell Shield was active on her when Kangaxx cast Wish. In the most recent test, I had Arcadia rest and recast, insuring the v30 version would be applied. It was bypassed, and Arcadia was debuffed.

 

We should find out whether this is a bug associated with the new version of Spell Shield, or intended behavior. Aasim, I'd appreciate your help here since you have a G3 account and communicate with Demi often. 

 

If it is a bug, then Nashlee would have the right to continue.

 

Best,

 

A.

 

This is a bug in SCS code I recon. I've just browsed the files involved. There are 2 errors. This has nothing to do with SR, it's the same code used.

a) the Wish spell (for destroying protections) doesn't get patched correctly. Neither does Wand of Breaching (or whatever it's name is, spellstriking?). Try testing the Wand vs spell shield, it shouldn't work correctly (the "correct" and intended way displays "Spell Shield dispelled" or "removed" message.)

You should get wonky vanilla behaviour. 

b)Spell Shield doesn't (can't, because it requires "a" to be working correctly) get patched correctly for these two cases above.

 

 

The piece of code governing this is in initial/ardanis_spell_shield file.

Spoiler

~spwi321~ // spell thrust
~spwi419~ // secret word
~spwi513~ // breach
~spwi608~ // pierce magic
~spwi704~ // ruby ray of reversal
~spwi705~ // khelben warding whip
~spwi805~ // pierce shield
~spwi903~ // spellstrike
// beholder innates
~spin992~ // beholder antimagic ray
~spin550~ // hive mother antimagic ray
// pnp beholder innates
~dw#bhan~ // beholder pnp antimagic ray
~dw#hvan~ // hive mother pnp antimagic ray

 

All of these above cast 2 spells with SCS. One destroys Spell Shield, and the other does what is in spell's description (removes this and that protection)

Spell Shield is patched to protect you from the second part of these spells, but gets destroyed by the first spell.

What's wrong is that this code lacks a few spells, including Wand breach  (at least in IR, I don't know how it works in vanilla. If it casts the real spell, it works) and the relevant spl file for Wish. (dw#wish1). 

In effect, SS doesn't protect you, nor gets removed (maybe sometimes, but only randomly; since the spell is bugged) by any spell removal not in the code above.

I might write a piece of code to fix it tomorrow.

It's refreshing to see folks here are so willing to help one another w/game issues.  It happens all the time & this exchange was a great example.  CKT

[Alesia_BH]

@Everyone. It has just occurred to me that Aasim and I are taking over this thread with an esoteric technical issue that most people probably don't care about. Sorry, sorry, sorry!

 

I'll start a new thread for this discussion. Look for it if you're interested.

 

The new thread is here, forgive the cheeky title:

 

                 Dreaming the Impossible Dream: An Adventurer's Quest for a Functional Version of Spell Shield in SCS v 30             

 

I would still love to hear from someone who can test in another v30 install. I'd really appreciate that.

 

Best,

 

A.

[Charlestonian Knight Templar]

I'm pleasantly surprised to see you do so well in BG2 after a long time of only playing BG1. .

 

Thanks for the encouragement B_R.  I used to play SoA/ToB only but before I knew anything about posting my progress.  I played BG2 much better than I did BG.   

 

You know how when you do something 'the first time', often it's your best effort?  E.g., for example, I play guitar & write music.  A lot of times when I practice, I play the song real well the first time w/maybe a couple of things I wanna go back & improve upon.  Then I go back & I jack up something else & end up playing worse & worse.  I think there's some of that here.  I remember encounters when I 'walk into the room' or whatever & I definitely know the strengths & weaknesses of my party, so I've been cautiously working my way thru.  Next up Trademeet & another crack @ Firkraag.  Thanks again for the encouragement.  CKT

[Aasim]

To finalize my toughts on this, here's what I do:

- keep your setup as it is

- the Wish-Breach bug you'll witness maybe two times in entire game; far less than you'll get hit by spell removals

- Spell Thrust works vs GoI with it's power set higher, so you might do that (it should bypass GoI & remove SS that way, hence SCS will be optimized)

- if you use my tweak to Wish, spell will be reflected by Turning etc. Imo, not a big deal, certainly will be far less problematic than reverting to old SS behaviour. 

- that leaves you with Breach vs Turning. Again, SCS won't even breach if you're protected by turning, ever. But will occasionally use Wish Breach regardless of it.

- which again, leaves me to believe Spellstrike should be used, not Breach. 

 

If you want this behaviour (I'd probably use that in my next run) open criticals/components/spellshield.tpa, replace spwi513b with spwi903b

and spwi513c with spwi903c.

 

 

 

The problems are related to, connected to, the Spell Shield fix. They're all associated with the implementation of the Spell Shield fix within the context of an SCS + Fixpack v10 install.

......................

 

It seems like part of you wants to defend those who worked on the Spell Shield fix. 

Not really. I am happy it's there and that it works since it makes game experience better. 

 

 

With the Fixpack installed, and the old version of Spell Shield, that wasn't a problem. GoI and Spell Shield worked fine together. It's only a problem with the new version of Spell Shield.

..........

 

 

So, basically, your suggestion is to install your patch, skip consistent Breach, and set Spell Thrust's spell level back to 4, as it was in Fixpack v9. That's a reasonable strategy. I can do that with ease. But that will make it easier to debuff enemies. And they won't be scripted to take account of those changes. GoI will no longer stop Spell Thrust and Spell Protections will no longer stop Breach. I'll know that, but they won't.

SCS assumes Spell Thrust drops SS regardless of GoI. Yet it doesn't (with Fixpack). It's busted now, not if you change it.

 

With the new version of Spell Shield installed, Breach is interacting with Spell Turning before it gets a chance to interact with Spell Shield, and Spell Thrust is interacting with GoI before it interacts with Spell Shield. Is there an expedient way to force those spells to interact with Spell Shield first?

Again, Breach should never even be cast against you if you have Turning active. It won't remove Spell Shield, but I don't know if this is intended or not. (If Turning turns Breach, why whould it affect SS anyway?)

AI will suffer nothing because of it.

 

There is a way, making Breach cast a dummy spell that does nothing but remove spell shield with a power level of 0 that bypasses protections or immunites. I've made the file, I'll test it out briefly - if it works as intended it may solve all your problems actually.

[Charlestonian Knight Templar]

@Everyone. It has just occurred to me that Aasim and I are taking over this thread with an esoteric technical issue that most people probably don't care about. Sorry, sorry, sorry!

 

I'll start a new thread for this discussion. Look for it if you're interested.

 

The new thread is here, forgive the cheeky title:

 

                 Dreaming the Impossible Dream: An Adventurer's Quest for a Functional Version of Spell Shield in SCS v 30             

 

I would still love to hear from someone who can test in another v30 install. I'd really appreciate that.

 

Best,

 

A.

I was following it your discussion.  It's easy to ask questions to one another here & know that we'll get good answers...I'm just not capable of helping out.  CKT

[Aasim]

People, sorry about this posts. 

[Charlestonian Knight Templar]

...Irenicus and Hell are looming

----

 

Wow.  Thanks a lot.   

[Aasim]

I'm just not capable of helping out.  CKT

You are!

[Alesia_BH]

You are!

 

Actually you could be a huge help, CKT, if you can spare the time. You are running SCS v30 with the Fixpack v10, correct?

 

We need someone to replicate the issues I've run into in order to determine whether it is a general problem, or something specific to my install.

 

Have one of your characters cast Spell Shield and GoI. Then, have another character cast Spell Thrust at the character who is running Spell Shield and GoI. Let us know what happens. In particular, does the Spell Thrust remove Spell Shield or do you get a Spell Ineffective message.

 

Best,

 

A.

[Aasim]

@ Alesia

 

It's done. I'm still a bit noob with coding, and tought this would take a while. Heheheh...but I'm a real ninja when I put myself to it.

Is this what you expect in your game?

 

 

This should also fix Wish, Turning and all else bothering you.

 

To do this, open criticals/components/spellshield.tpa file.

copy paste the code below into it and reinstall the component. 

Spoiler

COPY_EXISTING ~spwi513c.SPL~ ~override~
PATCH_IF (%SOURCE_SIZE% > 0x71) THEN BEGIN
FOR (READ_LONG 0x6a fx_off ELSE 0;fx_off WRITE_BYTE fx_off + 3 0
END
END
BUT_ONLY

COPY_EXISTING ~spwi419c.SPL~ ~override~
PATCH_IF (%SOURCE_SIZE% > 0x71) THEN BEGIN
FOR (READ_LONG 0x6a fx_off ELSE 0;fx_off WRITE_BYTE fx_off + 3 0
END
END
BUT_ONLY

COPY_EXISTING ~spwi321c.SPL~ ~override~
PATCH_IF (%SOURCE_SIZE% > 0x71) THEN BEGIN
FOR (READ_LONG 0x6a fx_off ELSE 0;fx_off WRITE_BYTE fx_off + 3 0
END
END
BUT_ONLY

COPY_EXISTING ~spwi608c.SPL~ ~override~
PATCH_IF (%SOURCE_SIZE% > 0x71) THEN BEGIN
FOR (READ_LONG 0x6a fx_off ELSE 0;fx_off WRITE_BYTE fx_off + 3 0
END
END
BUT_ONLY

COPY_EXISTING ~spwi705c.SPL~ ~override~
PATCH_IF (%SOURCE_SIZE% > 0x71) THEN BEGIN
FOR (READ_LONG 0x6a fx_off ELSE 0;fx_off WRITE_BYTE fx_off + 3 0
END
END
BUT_ONLY

Let me know if it works - it should fix all SS/ST/Turning issues - Spell Shield should always get removed. You don't need to edit anything.

[Aasim]

@ everyone else with SCS - if you face same woes, here's the mod link, updated with this code above which allows correct removal of Spell Shield. It has about 14 components, to fix SCS issues you need to install the LAST one.

Do not install the one I made for Grimwald. That's his component.

Others are my own tweaks, some kits etc - install if you like.

[Alesia_BH]

@ everyone else with SCS - if you face same woes, here's the mod link, updated with this code above which allows correct removal of Spell Shield. It has about 14 components, to fix SCS issues you need to install the LAST one.

Do not install the one I made for Grimwald. That's his component.

Others are my own tweaks, some kits etc - install if you like.

 

There are still unanswered questions, here but this looks encouraging.

 

Thanks, Aasim!

 

Best,

 

A.

 

@Aasim catch me in the other thread.

[Alesia_BH]

Quick Note:

 

I'd encourage everyone to hold off on installing.

 

A big thanks to, Aasim, nonetheless! We have a promising work in progress.

 

Best,

 

A.

 

NW: Let's continue this in the other thread, everyone! Let's get this thread back on topic!