15228 réponses à ce sujet

[Blackraven]

Golden, interesting update. 
I'm surprised at the effectiveness of Cloudkill. I use it more as a disabler and to disperse enemies, but you somehow manage to kill powerful enemies with it.
Also, what's with the Aerie and the Cowled Enforcers? They were fighters no? Looked more like city guards. My Cowled Enforcers are always super high level mages that I simply don't dare mess with. (Maybe later in the game, but that would force me to refrain from casting for too long for my liking.)
Anyway, glad that Alexander gets to live another day.

[Alesia_BH]

 

The cambion died because of 2 sunfires from the slaves and then 5 spread-out cloudkills.. That was surprising :S.

 

 

@Golden. By cambion do you mean the Warden, the end boss of the Planar Prison quest?

 

Best,

 

A.

[Alesia_BH]

I'm surprised at the effectiveness of Cloudkill. I use it more as a disabler and to disperse enemies, but you somehow manage to kill powerful enemies with it.

 

It's hard to script enemies to avoid stationary AoE spells and Cloud Kill does posion damage. Many enemies are vulnerable to poison damage. Many of the game's encounters can be completed by discharging Cloud Kill charges from outside of line of sight. The Wand, when recharged, provides a large number of uses per battle.

 

Many experienced players, perhaps most, restrict use of Cloud Kill- especially the Wand, and especially the use of the Wand from outside of line of sight.

 

When I first started playing, I used the spell Cloud Kill and the Wand of Cloud Kill often but after killing a number of SoA endbosses with the Wand of Cloudkill and a level 1 bard, I got bored with it. Minimally, the wand should not be recharged in my opinion. I prefer to avoid the spell and the wand altogether.

 

It can work though, and some people enjoy using it.

 

Best,

 

A.

[Alesia_BH]

Edit: Alesia deserves it to be inducted into the Hall of Heroes anyway. Didn't you already complete BG1 and BG2 with her in separate playthroughs?

 

The Hall is only for successful Trilogy no reloads. Completing BG1 and BG2 in sepqrate playthroughs is not a Trilogy no reload.

 

The entire Trilogy has to be completed in one playthrough without a Charname death. It has to be a continuous narrative without interruption.

 

My bounty hunter has not earned her place in the Hall yet. Someday she will.

 

Best,

 

A.

[Blackraven]

@Alesia, well that's interesting. As I said I do use it for disrupting/dispersing purposes, even from out of my (previously scouted) enemies' sight. But they start walking backwards or toward my character, to get out of its AoE. 

Edit: I can't imagine beating Irenicus with it.

Edit 2: ok point taken re: Alesia

[Alesia_BH]

@Alesia, well that's interesting. As I said I do use it for disrupting/dispersing purposes, even from out of my (previously scouted) enemies' sight. But they start walking backwards or toward my character, to get out of its AoE.

 

It's worse in vanilla. In vanilla, enemies will just stand there and die. In SCS, they attempt to move with varying degress of success. There are limits to the ability to script movement, however.

 

If the Cloudkills are spread out, if there are barriers, or if there is a creature in the Cloud Kill to attract their attention they'll stay in the cloud.

 

 

Edit: I can't imagine beating Irenicus with it.

 

The old Wand of Cloud Kill ignored magic resistance as well so you could kill oddles of things with it.

 

For example:

 

 

EDIT: Not recommended, of course.

 

Best,

 

A.

[Alesia_BH]

 

 

Meanwhile Shangalar cast a time stop and threw in a ADHW and comet during that.  That chunked 2 more of them and left Al hanging on by a thread.  

 

@Grond0. Have you considered using the Potions of Icedust in situations like this (IE- incoming Comet or Dragon's Breath)? In theory, they should be perfect: 100% resistance to fire damage for 1 round with a large AoE. You can throw them. They're quick. You should be able to protect your whole team. All you need is one character with a clear aura.

 

Best,

 

A.

[corey_russell]

It's worse in vanilla. In vanilla, enemies will just stand there and die. In SCS, they attempt to move with varying degress of success. There are limits to the ability to script movement, however.

 

If the Cloudkills are spread out, if there are barriers, or if there is a creature in the Cloud Kill to attract their attention they'll stay in the cloud.

 

 

 

The old Wand of Cloud Kill ignored magic resistance as well so you could kill oddles of things with it.

 

For example:

 

 

EDIT: Not recommended, of course.

 

Best,

 

A.

I'd like to comment on this. While I agree with party play it's quite unnecessary to use cloudkill wand out of sight of the enemies, I think it's a different situation for solo characters. When Picenon made it to ToB, I was wondering how in the world would he deal with the many masses of enemies in ToB. Kiting them is possible, but tedious, and definitely not my style. Also, perhaps more than other players, I am very unfond of excessive rests. Sendai's Enclave is the perfect example - yes, I could have entered the lair, GWW the nearby enemies, laid traps, lure enemies to the traps - then pocket plane rest. Now repeat same steps through most of the enclave. This would have been far more resting that I would want to do, not to mention not my style, despite being a fighter/thief. On the other hand, scouting ahead, then backing off and hiding in the shadows with the non-detection cloak was my style - the enemies are dying but can't find me - if they run I would just throw more cloudkills on them. I don't think a possible way to deal with problems should be derided - in war, you do whatever you can to do defeat the enemy - you don't worry about that your attacks are "fair" on them. I expect the same of U.S. Army generals - if many soldiers are dying, but could have been prevented by not giving enemies a chance (Tomahawk missiles, stealth bomber, whatever it takes), I would call for that general's head.

[Alesia_BH]

@Corey. It's a single player game. We're all here to share out adventures. We should all feel free to play the way that we like, within the bounds of the challenge rules.

 

I was merely expressing my preference, not mandating a particular perspective.

 

 

 I don't think a possible way to deal with problems should be derided - in war, you do whatever you can to do defeat the enemy - you don't worry about that your attacks are "fair" on them. I expect the same of U.S. Army generals - if many soldiers are dying, but could have been prevented by not giving enemies a chance (Tomahawk missiles, stealth bomber, whatever it takes), I would call for that general's head.

 

I see your point. But it's not war. It's a game. And the question is what makes that game fun to play. To the extent that restrictions can make the game more challenging and enjoyable, they should be embraced- embraced by those who enjoy them, that is. Those who don't enjoy them can pass. I see no reason to call for heads.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I think its wonderful that we have a diversity of playing styles and perspectives represented on the forum. I hope that will continue. And I hope Picenon with thrive, however he chooses to fight.

 

Best,

 

A.

[corey_russell]

Alesia said...

I was merely expressing my preference, not mandating a particular perspective.

I also, was merely expressing my preference.

 

And the question is what makes that game fun to play.

 

For me, BG is fun - period. It doesn't matter to me whether solo, party, whether I defeat an enemy with spells, melee, ranged, whether I roleplay a good or eviil character - the game is just fun to me, which is why I don't need mods. I know for you Alesia, style matters, and I respect that. But there's no DM in game giving style points, so I am content to just have fun.

[Alesia_BH]

I am content to just have fun.

 

I'm glad to hear that. And I have no desire to squelch your fun. 

 

I don't think there's a conflict here. We have different preferences, and we respect each others preferences. There's nothing wrong with that. 

 

Anyhoo, good hunting, Corey!

 

A.

[Grond0]

Thanks everyone for the support.  I was actually a bit surprised at how well the Crew did.  Given they had no way to kill quite a lot of enemies for quite long periods of time (a lich with 5 PFMW for instance) they were very vulnerable to spell damage.  However, fighter HPs, careful movement and attempting to rotate damage between party members let them survive some considerable barrages.

 

Condolences, Grond0.

 

A gruesome end to Al's adventure, but an outstanding run nonetheless.

 

Plans for vengeance? 

As noted above they did better than I expected, even though they were slightly handicapped by restrictions.  I am thinking to give them another go, but on slightly more generous terms.  I never felt happy about continuing anyway after the first chunking relatively early on in SoA, so would like to give the full Crew another chance to see if they can progress further.

 

@Grond0. Have you considered using the Potions of Icedust in situations like this (IE- incoming Comet or Dragon's Breath)? In theory, they should be perfect: 100% resistance to fire damage for 1 round with a large AoE. You can throw them. They're quick. You should be able to protect your whole team. All you need is one character with a clear aura.

I agree that would have been a very good idea - I was surprised at how far those spell icons had to travel (ADHW cast instantly on coming out of time stops) so there was certainly time to use a counter.  Officially that run was only restricted on healing potions, but in practice I was trying to avoid potion use as much as possible.  However, not using one of the potions of icedust sitting in Carlo's potion bag (or indeed potions of fire resistance, magic resistance, magic shielding etc) was more to do with combat fatigue / acceptance of fate than a conscious decision.  I was also in that run attempting to do every possible encounter and didn't feel I could leave the Twisted Rune for later.  That encounter would be difficult for the Crew at any time in any case (in a short space of time Shangalar had cast at least 8 level 9/10 spells, while being invulnerable to almost everything they had to attack him in return; meanwhile Vaxall prevented the possibility of any prolonged benefits from potions to counter AoE spells), although I have thought of a tactic that might have given them at least some chance of success in that fight.

[corey_russell]

Grond0 - I don't think liches require magical weapons to hit - why not equip all non-magical weapons and beat the lich senseless while it wastes time with PfMW?

[Alesia_BH]

Grond0 - I don't think liches require magical weapons to hit - why not equip all non-magical weapons and beat the lich senseless while it wastes time with PfMW?

 

Liches are immune to non-magical weapons. Shangalar in particular is. 

[Alesia_BH]

  I am thinking to give them another go, but on slightly more generous terms.  I never felt happy about continuing anyway after the first chunking relatively early on in SoA, so would like to give the full Crew another chance to see if they can progress further.

 

Makes sense. I think they deserve another shot.

 

 

I agree that would have been a very good idea - I was surprised at how far those spell icons had to travel

 

Yes. Most arcane spells allow a counter window, especially if you maintain distance. Wilting, Comet, and Dragon's Breath are often particularly easy to counter due to their slow animations and, in the case of Wilting, long casting time.

 

I've never had an opportunity to use the Potions of Icedust in particular, but they've always struck me as just the thing for an unbuffed party facing an incoming Comet or Dragon's Breath

 

 

  Officially that run was only restricted on healing potions, but in practice I was trying to avoid potion use as much as possible.

 

 

Noted. I take the opposite approach. I don't restrict potions, but I do restrict area transitions, doorways use, and line of sight stuff. Again, different styles, no right or wrong. I respect your choices.

 

In the case of the Rune, potion counters are worth considering- in conjunction with protections scrolls and strategic planning, of course. 

 

I agree that Vaxall's anti-magic ray is a problem.

 

Does Spellstrike take down Protection from Magic in your install?

 

I look forward to seeing your next attempt!

 

Best,

 

A.

[Serg BlackStrider]

Not sure why the thing with the saves happens. It's only one save, but the message often gets repeated.
 

This is a TobEx issue with Saving Throw Fix. You'll also get multiple *Magic Resistance* messages is this case. I can live with that =)

 

Sad to see Wrecking Crew's run has ended violently, Grond0... Wish them to be revenged someday. 

[Golden28]

I'd like to comment on this:

 

It's hard to script enemies to avoid stationary AoE spells and Cloud Kill does posion damage. Many enemies are vulnerable to poison damage. Many of the game's encounters can be completed by discharging Cloud Kill charges from outside of line of sight. The Wand, when recharged, provides a large number of uses per battle.

 

Many experienced players, perhaps most, restrict use of Cloud Kill- especially the Wand, and especially the use of the Wand from outside of line of sight.

 

When I first started playing, I used the spell Cloud Kill and the Wand of Cloud Kill often but after killing a number of SoA endbosses with the Wand of Cloudkill and a level 1 bard, I got bored with it. Minimally, the wand should not be recharged in my opinion. I prefer to avoid the spell and the wand altogether.

 

It can work though, and some people enjoy using it.

 

Best,

 

A.

 

Using cloudkill like in the movie that was posted doesn't work with SCS: it prevents this, so that goes for a number of installs from people doing no reload. Enemies hit by cloudkill will automatically search for the one that cast it either by wand or spell, even offscreen. After the cloud hits they say things like: "i'm engufled by a cloud" and they ALWAYS move out of it and hunt for the caster, unless there are a bunch of skeleton warriors charging them into the cloud, which is quite realistic in my opinion. They're usually stuck between the warriors and the cloud, having nowhere else to go. 

 

Take for example the Mae'var battle. Those thieves have nowhere else to go between the back of the guildhall and my 4 skeletons and are just being trapped and poisoned to death. Even then scripted and hasted Mae'var usually goes straight for Jan or Aerie and escapes the skeletons. Same goes for the planar prison. I've got hasted skeletons trapping the yuan ti into the clouds. Where would they go, tumbling of the cliff into nothingness?

 

So imho using cloudkill is totally legit with SCS, less so in vanilla. I'd never kill a dragon by simply standing there and watch it die. However, as Corey said, in some cases those kind off tactics might be preferred, like when soloing.

 

 

Golden, interesting update. 
I'm surprised at the effectiveness of Cloudkill. I use it more as a disabler and to disperse enemies, but you somehow manage to kill powerful enemies with it.
Also, what's with the Aerie and the Cowled Enforcers? They were fighters no? Looked more like city guards. My Cowled Enforcers are always super high level mages that I simply don't dare mess with. (Maybe later in the game, but that would force me to refrain from casting for too long for my liking.)
Anyway, glad that Alexander gets to live another day.

 

Thanks BR . Yes if you use the wand like stated above, in combination with undead which are immune, and making sure enemies are trapped, its very effective. Even so I usually don't kill any bosses with it: they will move out of them or kill me before they die of the 5 hp damage per round they suffer. I was very surprised the cambion fell so quickly (didn't quite understand it really). 

 

I was suprised about those warriors too. I have no idea why they were there. Just no idea at all.. I just figure they heard the ruckus and decided to have a look .

 

Wait till you read about the last fight I had, with a certain exiled elf....

 

 

@Golden. By cambion do you mean the Warden, the end boss of the Planar Prison quest?

 

Best,

 

A.

 

Indeed, the Warden (IS a cambion I think?)

 

Cheers!

[Grond0]

Does Spellstrike take down Protection from Magic in your install?

No.  I have a certain amount of sympathy with the rationale for doing this, but since there are so few PfM scrolls in BG2 I think it's reasonable to retain it's full power (there are also lots of attacks which ignore it anyway).

 

Wow, lots of updates since my last post. Good progress, everyone, and RIP to the Wrecking Crew who wrecked until they could wreck no more.

 

Thanks, but there'll be no rest for the wicked .

[Golden28]

No.  I have a certain amount of sympathy with the rationale for doing this, but since there are so few PfM scrolls in BG2 I think it's reasonable to retain it's full power (there are also lots of attacks which ignore it anyway).

 

 

Same here.. I once installed it but it got insta-dispelled every single time, waisting a good 3000 gp and rare scroll on an enemy that the scroll is meant to foil but who also happens to always be the one that is able to dispel.. thats too gimpy..

 

Cheers!

[Aasim]

 

Wrecking Crew {13} - dwarf fighters (10th and final update)

Auch. Didn't you say you have no trouble vs Liches?   

Gratz for coming this far in any case - it's a feat by itself on this install you use.

Otoh, why did you go to visit Twisted Rune creeps?  I simply skip  that crap with SCS, teleporting Lich+Beholder+mage = very high chance of death...

[Alesia_BH]

Using cloudkill like in the movie that was posted doesn't work with SCS it prevents this,

 

Right. The point of the video was to illustrate historic uses of Cloud Kill for those unfamiliar with the vanilla mechanic.

 

I had indicated the SCS scripted foes will attempt to vacate clouds. 

 

After the cloud hits they say things like: "i'm engufled by a cloud" and they ALWAYS move out of it and hunt for the caster, unless there are a bunch of skeleton warriors charging them into the cloud, which is quite realistic in my opinion. They're usually stuck between the warriors and the cloud, having nowhere else to go. 

 

 

Right. As I mentioned earlier, there are still ways of making enemies stay in the cloud.

 

 

Therefore imho using cloudkill is totally legit with SCS

 

I respect your perspective, and encourage you to play however you see fit.

 

Personally, I find the use of cloud spells unpalatable, especially in conjunction with methods for trapping enemies in the AoE, including but not limited to Skeleton Warriors. That's just me though.

 

We all have our means of developing comparative advantages in battle. Our playing styles are largely defined by the methods we prefer, or the methods we are averse to. Grond0, for example, finds potion use un-fun or uninteresting or unstimulating (or whatever), leading him to use area transitions and other methods. I find area transitions and such un-fun or uninteresting or unstimulating (or whatever), leading me to use potions and buffs. You find buffs un-fun or uninteresting or unstimulating (or whatever), leading you to foil casters with Cloudkills. There's no right or wrong, just preferences. I, for one, am glad we've all found ways of playing that allow us to have fun. I hope we'll all keep having fun.

 

 

Best,

 

A.

[Alesia_BH]

@Golden. By cambion do you mean the Warden, the end boss of the Planar Prison quest?

 

 

 

Indeed, the Warden (IS a cambion I think?)

 

 

Yes, essentially. I just wanted 100% confirmation that we were thinking of the same creature. Here's why I asked

 

 

The cambion died because of 2 sunfires from the slaves and then 5 spread-out cloudkills.

 

 

The Warden should be 100% immune to both fire damage (Sunfires) and poison damage (Cloudkill). He is, at least, in my install.

 

Do you have any screenshots of what happened here?

 

Best,

 

A.

[Golden28]

Personally, I find the use of cloud spells unpalatable, especially in conjunction methods for trapping them in the AoE, including but not limited to Skeleton Warriors. That's just me though.

 

We all have out means of developing a comparative advantage in battle. Our playing styles are largely defined by the methods we prefer, or the methods we are averse to. Grond0, for example, finds potion use un-fun or uninteresting or unstimulating (or whatever), leading him to use area transitions and other methods. I find area transitions and such un-fun or uninteresting or unstimulating (or whatever), leading me to use potions and buffs. You find buffs uninteresting, leading you to foil casters with Cloudkills. There's no right or wrong, just preferences. I, for one, a glad we've all found ways of playing that we enjoy. I hope we'll all keep having fun.

 

 

Yeah, I can understandwhat you're saying.. I just can't justify not using a (already modified with better AI) spell anymore just because it works: Foiling already op spellcasters is exactely what the spell was made for imo..

 

Cheers!

[Golden28]

Yes, essentially. I just wanted 100% confirmation that we were thinking of the same creature. Here's why I asked

 

 

 

The Warden should be 100% immune to both fire damage (Sunfires) and poison damage (Cloudkill). He is, at least, in my install.

 

Do you have any screenshots of what happened here?

 

Best,

 

A.

 

Hmm not in my install. I don't have screens but I watched the damage outputs in the message boxes, they were clear on the damage too (red and green colored). One possibility is SCS failed to install 'improved prison' somehow?, I seriously don't understand how he could have fallen (so easily), last time he was making our lives a living hell no he just kinda fell over ...

 

Cheers!

 

Edit: I checked SCS and improved prison is installed.. Nalia's keep was also improved so this should have worked too. I also noticed some enemies like genies dont instacast anymore like in my last install, they take normal casting time now, while they do have the higher hp, at least that what it seems like. I dunno.. 

 

Cheers!