15226 réponses à ce sujet

[Alesia_BH]

Aphril, Elven Sorcerer: The Oasis

 

I don't have much progress to report, because I spent most of the day making cupcakes. All I have to offer is the Oasis.

 

This was uneventful. I usually use the Oasis to showcase one ability or the other, but this time I just did it quickly and expediently. 

 

The party arrived unbuffed, but invisible. Adara, Imoen, and Aerie all cast SI:D. Aphril fired up Improved Alacrity, took her buffs, and then went to work.

 

Spoiler

 

An SoA style Sunfire/Skull Trap assault sufficed for Jamis.

 

Spoiler

 

With the Answerer out of the picture, Aphril summoned a Planetar to clear the map.

 

Spoiler

 

The party has some inventory and spell book management tasks to attend to but they should be ready to leave for Sendai's lair soon.

 

Best,

 

A.

[ussnorway]

@Alesia_BH I owe you a like but it seems I don't have any to give today...

 

I remember when we could take a week for big events at work and not get a dozen new pages to read... put Windows 10 on this machine please... O yuK... take it away!

[Gate70]

HI
So much going on here I am struggling to keep up but I did see a few comments about ranged maze. I'd agree with Grond0, N'ashtar doesn't use it but finds ways to achieve a similar effect while Abazigal does use it. It's not easy to prove as there is a 33% chance of him using it and he'll only target those with <50% magic resistance.

I edited the conditions to make it a 100% chance and <120% magic resistance.

[Jabberwock]

Well, I'm back in the saddle. Planning on same party this time, i.e. K/M, J, H, V, J->I, Ed. I'm going to try to use Viconia's spells more effectively this time; I often felt previously like she didn't have much to do in combat except spam wand of heavens. I'm also going to make sure to spawn the level 13 version of Imoen... and make sure we get adalon this time for the armor. We'll also do the beholder tunnels in the underdark, which we skipped last time (going to be feeling a bit light on exp otherwise, as we will miss out on the adalon quest exp reward).

 

I did a full reinstall of SCS, as when I initially configured I didn't really know the implications of all the options. In hindsight, I turned out to be happy with essentially everything. The only material change I made was to let select SoA casters use HLAs; previously I think I had restricted enemy caster HLAs to ToB. Hopefully I won't come to regret that...

 

 

Party has wrapped up a few early quests, including Edwin's join quests, the circus and Jaheira's curse, although little else. Heading to go get Haerdalis now.

 

Despite the intent to not make the material errors that were made last run, we have had one embarassing amateur hour mistake, although I don't think it has any long-term impact. During the fight with Kalah in the circus, Aerie was killed after Kalah died... dropping all her items which appear to now be gone forever. Total damage was the metaspell amulet, some random junk and two spellbooks full of all the spells I had stolen in the promenade but not learned yet. Ooops. Could have been worse, she could have been carrying all the wands from Jon.

 

Anyhow, that's behind us and the party should sail pretty smoothly through chapter 2/3. I'm a little worried about the shade lord as I've had trouble there with what I think might be a bug that can instakill party members. My plan is to just do the quest last, avoid him with charname, and my mages should be strong enough at that point to LR -> murder him. I am also considering cheesing him with PfUd and/or false dawn, as I think he is undead.

[Alesia_BH]

@Gate70. Noted. Thanks for the demonstration!

 

I've never seen that behavior from Ascension Abazigal. I've seen psionic maze from Tamah, but that offers a save.

 

I wonder whether vanilla Abazigal's behavior is a scripting bug or intended? In either case, I'd regard a Pro Magic Scroll as fair play for warrior and thieves facing vanilla Abazigal.

 

The N'shatar behavior doesn't surprise me. I've seen similar moves in my installs. The play would be to run RoAC II until his Mislead is down and maintain a movement rate advantage. Otherwise, move along. It sounds like the spell is behaving as expected, in any case.

 

Anyhoo. Thanks again, Gate70!

 

Best,

 

A.

[Golden28]

Hey guys, just wanna let you know that I'm away for 3 weeks, doing the trans-Mongolia express (11000 km by train ). Once I'm back I'm planning another Alexander run. Wish you and your pc's good adventures.

 

Cheers!

[Alesia_BH]

Enjoy your trip Golden!

 

Best,

 

A.

[Alesia_BH]

 

My plan is to just do the quest last, avoid him with charname, and my mages should be strong enough at that point to LR -> murder him. I am also considering cheesing him with PfUd and/or false dawn, as I think he is undead.

 

The Shade Lord is undead. PfUd does work against him. I've yet to try False Dawn.

 

Welcome back, Jabberwock!

 

Best,

 

A.

[Jabberwock]

I think I may have already been slain by a bug. Not sure what happened here:

 

 

This is during the inn fight in the promenade, with the party that drops the cloak of non-detection. I don't believe my charname was vulnerable to anything, as he had his buffs up and hadn't been injured (unless maybe something was dispelled but I don't think so). The reason I speculate it is a bug is that I've never seen the portaits blank like that on death, and I honestly can't think what could have instakilled me... Anyone seen the portaits like that on death before?

 

As an aside, BG2 kind of drives me nuts with wiping the combat log on death. Any known way to get around that and see final messages?

[Grond0]

 

The reason I speculate it is a bug is that I've never seen the portaits blank like that on death, and I honestly can't think what could have instakilled me... Anyone seen the portaits like that on death before?

 

As an aside, BG2 kind of drives me nuts with wiping the combat log on death. Any known way to get around that and see final messages?

I'm with you entirely about the combat log - I still can't believe that BGEE didn't find a work-around to allow that to happen .

 

In relation to death the portrait goes blank when the character is chunked rather than just killed.  That could for instance have been the result of a backstab or perhaps a disintegrate spell (not sure if that caster has that as an option).

[Jabberwock]

I'm with you entirely about the combat log - I still can't believe that BGEE didn't find a work-around to allow that to happen .

 

In relation to death the portrait goes blank when the character is chunked rather than just killed.  That could for instance have been the result of a backstab or perhaps a disintegrate spell (not sure if that caster has that as an option).

 

Interesting, thanks. For what its worth, test disintegrating charname in my install did not lead to blank portaits on death. Is there an easy way to chunk charname when the SCS chunk prevention option is installed?

 

Edit: I can't be certain, but I believe the killsword chunks charname on death (at least, it always chunks my other npcs). Still did not reproduce the empty landscape + blank portaits. 

[Blackraven]

Interesting, thanks. For what its worth, test disintegrating charname in my install did not lead to blank portaits on death. Is there an easy way to chunk charname when the SCS chunk prevention option is installed?

Chunking is still possible with that option installed. In that particular battle besides a backstab as mentioned by Grond0, a Chromatic Orb petrification could lead to a chunking. However it's hard for me to say anything about your case because I don't know the details. For instance I'm afraid I don't know what class you charname was. A freshly Stoneskinned Mage for example is unlikely to be chunked by a backstab.

[Jabberwock]

Chunking is still possible with that option installed. In that particular battle besides a backstab as mentioned by Grond0, a Chromatic Orb petrification could lead to a chunking. However it's hard for me to say anything about your case because I don't know the details. For instance I'm afraid I don't know what class you charname was. A freshly Stoneskinned Mage for example is unlikely to be chunked by a backstab.

 

Kensai with ~140 hp. Have you seen that the empty landscape and portaits are a normal occurence on death? If so, I am inclined to treat it as a death, even if I can't think what the source was. In terms of chunking though. with some more testing, here is what a petrification -> chunk death looks like on my install:

 

 

Charname is petrified and then killed with firestorm, which was cast before petrification. Stone chunks are visible on the top left. But, portaits and landscape are still visible, unlike in the inn death. Also, I could see charname get petrified, whereas in the inn fight the landsacpe just went blank and then showed the game over animation. 

 

Edit: Just to be precise, the portaits in the inn death are black and empty, but they aren't missing as with normal npc chunk deaths.

[Alesia_BH]

@Jabbewock. I'm sorry for your woes.

 

The blank portraits look suspicious. I've never seen that before, but then again, I don't play BG2 EE. 

 

The most readily applicable precedent would be the first time a player here encounter the Shade Lord's Make Shadow summon death bug. The player, named Cuttysark, was fighting the Shade Lord when his character, Dostoevsky, was mysteriously chunked. We considered possible explanations, including Finger of Death. We noted that none of the candidate explanations fit the data precisely, but that we couldn't rule them out. Then, seeking to clarify the bug reload rule, I wrote.

 

Cuttysark, in cases where we have allowed reloads on the grounds that a death was caused by a bug, two conditions have been satisfied: 1) the cause of death was known; 2) that cause was unambiguously a bug that subverted developer intent. 

 

As an example, shortly after I installed an early version of ToBEX, my bounty hunter, Alesia, was killed by a series of Horrid Wiltings, cast by Sendai- despite the fact that Alesia had 100% magic damage resistance at the time via Potion of Magic Shielding + BoIB. Through testing, I confirmed that magic damage resistance was not working in my install. Then, I and other forumites confirmed that this was a bug caused by ToBEX: http://www.shsforums.net/topic/43639-bg2tob-tobex-release-thread/page-24

 

In that case, we ruled that a reload was justified: we had a known cause and that cause had been determined to be a bug that had subverted developer intent. I transferred my save to a working install, and then continued my run.

 

In a similar but distinguishable case, one of Serg's party members, Cassia, was disintegrated in a Sphere of Chaos, despite having 100% magic resistance. We checked the Sphere of Chaos SPL file and discovered that the disintegrate effect was suspiciously flagged Bypass Resistance, while all the other disadvantageous effects were flagged Not Bypass Resistance. We suspected this was a bug -and I still suspect that it's a bug- but since we couldn't, at the time, unambiguously demonstrate that the flagging was an error that had subverted developer intent, we concluded that a reload wasn't justified, though it very nearly was.

 

The point here is that we have a reasonably clear standard for determining whether a reload is justified. The burden of proof lies on the party seeking a reload and the evidentiary standard is moderately high. In Dostoevksy's case -where we have no certain cause, no identified bug, and at least one candidate legitimate explanation (FoD)- the conditions for invoking the justifiable reload rule aren't satisfied. Ultimately, it's your game and your decision, however.

 

It is a common occurrence for characters to die under mysterious circumstances. Sometimes the exact cause remains unclear even after investigation. We have not permitted reloads in these cases. Instead, we've done our best to determine what may have gone wrong, and then offered our condolences. Sadly, I'd suggest that we should follow that precedent here, although, again, it's ultimately your decision.

 

(NW: This is just my take and I'm just one member of our community. You should all feel free to share your opinions.)

 

 

Shortly thereafter, Polytope hypothesized that the LastTrigger() in the Shade Lord's script may have inappropriately applied the Make Shadow effect to Cuttysark's character, Dostoevesky, following the death of Cuttysark's summon. Gate70 then demonstrated the effect in a test. Following the test, we noted that Polytope's LastTrigger() hypothesis fit the data better than any other explanation. I then wrote.

 

We now have a documented bug. And this candidate explanation is easier to reconcile with the facts as they've been presented. If Cuttysark feels he can confidently rule out FoD based on what he observed in game, then a reload is justified to my mind. 

 

Cuttysark was then allowed to continue his game, with our blessing.

 

I'll suggest that we should take the same approach here. Quoting the essential parts, for our purposes:

 

In cases where we have allowed reloads on the grounds that a death was caused by a bug, two conditions have been satisfied: 1) the cause of death was known; 2) that cause was unambiguously a bug that subverted developer intent. 

 

The burden of proof lies on the party seeking a reload and the evidentiary standard is moderately high. In Dostoevksy's case -where we have no certain cause, no identified bug, and at least one candidate legitimate explanation (FoD)- the conditions for invoking the justifiable reload rule aren't satisfied. Ultimately, it's your game and your decision, however.

 

I, personally, wouldn't reload on the present facts in your case, Jabberwock. If we can document a bug, as we ultimately did in Cuttysark's case, and if we conclude that that candidate explantation fits the data better than any other, then the situation would be different: a reload would then be justified. We need a documented bug, Jabberwock. Mystery alone is not sufficient.

 

Has anyone seen what Jabberwock has seen? Does anyone have a candidate explanation? I'd especially like to hear from the EE players.

 

Best,

 

 

A.

[Aasim]

 

 Is there an easy way to chunk charname when the SCS chunk prevention option is installed?

 

 

Has anyone seen what Jabberwock has seen? Does anyone have a candidate explanation? I'd especially like to hear from the EE players.

 

It's impossible to say what happened w/o more info.

Amon can cast Chromatic Orb at petrification level. In case you were protected from things such as Charm/Confusion/Slow or similar, you might have got  hit by it instead of his usual stuff and failed to save. When this happens, you don't even see the animation or anything  - it's instant game over screen. Did he cast it? If he did, that would explain everything.

 

I'd vote thief's  backstab out since it's highly improbable to die by it at full health.

Other than that,  there's simply no way you can die so quickly there. Pooky is level 8, so he can't do much damage-wise.

Hence, if you had Death Ward/Pro Petrify on your PC, I'd call this an EE bug. I wouldn't reload on it, but I wouldn't blame you if you did.

 

The easy way to chunk your charname is Sarevok. His DB 200 damage assault should chunk you fairly reliably. If not, use Shadowkeeper to remove the effect from your PC  ("disable permanent death", 295 opcode).

[Alesia_BH]

@Aasim. We're aware of the candidate working game mechanic explanations. We're also aware that there is too little information to know what happened for certain at present. The questions at issue are:

 

1) Whether anyone has seen the portrait behavior that Jabberwock observed? 

 

2) Whether anyone is aware of a documented or documentable bug that could account for what Jabberwock has observed?

 

In this case, the working game mechanic explanations seem strained. The portrait behavior appearance seems odd. This may have been a bug, but we need a firmer evidentiary basis to view it as such.

 

Best,

 

A.

[Grond0]

@Aasim. We're aware of the candidate working game mechanic explanations. We're also aware that there is too little information to know what happened for certain at present. The questions at issue are:

 

1) Whether anyone has seen the portrait behavior that Jabberwock observed? 

 

2) Whether anyone is aware of a documented or documentable bug that could account for what Jabberwock has observed?

 

In this case, the working game mechanic explanations seem strained. The portrait behavior appearance seems odd. This may have been a bug, but we need a firmer evidentiary basis to view it as such.

Just to expand on my previous post, chunking will lead to a blank portrait - that's why in a party your 6 portraits suddenly reduce to 5 .  I wouldn't expect to see that as a result of petrification though as the game should end as soon as the character is stoned - that's why the portrait is still showing in Jabberwock's test for petrification above.  If the cause is not a bug therefore it needs to be something which chunks at the time of death rather than after that.

[Alesia_BH]

Just to expand on my previous post, chunking will lead to a blank portrait - that's why in a party your 6 portraits suddenly reduce to 5

 

Right. But take another look at Jabberwock's screenshot. The portrait frames haven't disappeared, as they do in cases of chunking. The portrait frames are still there: the pictures are just missing. Further, all 6 of the frames are present but missing portraits- not just the charname's.

 

Has anyone observed that?

 

Does anyone know of a bug that could cause that behavior?

 

Best,

 

A.

[ussnorway]

I know of no damage effect that can case this 'in game' but I've only tested bg2ee twice... it looks like a glich in the render i.e with a lot of colour effects from spells flying around the render could have dropped out just as the main character dies and stops the game.

 

For what-ever it's worth I'd stop playing same as Alesia_BH but its your game and your choice.

 

p.s. it's nice to see Cassia still gets talked about... she had fleas style!

[Blackraven]

Fwiw I've never seen the portraits disappear like this in either the original games or the EEs and I have no theory on what might have happened.

Like the others I would probably not allow myself a reload, but I would understand it if you do, Jabberwock.

[Jabberwock]

Thanks everyone for taking a look, I really appreciate it. I think clearly some bug occurred, but since it's impossible to prove that it was the cause of death, I don't think the run any longer qualifies as within the thread rules. That said, I'm personally going to continue it as I think it's sufficiently unlikely that I was killed legitimately and then an unrelated bug occurred. For that to have happened, charname would have had to have been instakilled in a relatively safe fight against mostly disabled opponents a few seconds after he was at 100+ hp, death warded and petrification protected, and in addition an unrelated bug would have had to have occurred, seemingly deleting all the party members and enemies from the map. If the party is cheating death due to a "lucky" bug providing an excuse, it will take that risk, but as a precuation it will still exclude itself from the thread.

 

So we will continue the run off thread. If the party should fail in their quest, the problem is solved. If they should succeed, I'll probably put up one post but clearly provide the caveat of a reload in buggy but uncertain circumstances. Thanks again everyone for helping diagnose.

[Alesia_BH]

Thanks everyone for taking a look, I really appreciate it. I think clearly some bug occurred, but since it's impossible to prove that it was the cause of death, I don't think the run any longer qualifies as within the thread rules.

 

We respect your decision, Jabberwock.

 

That said, I'm personally going to continue it as I think it's sufficiently unlikely that I was killed legitimately and then an unrelated bug occurred. For that to have happened, charname would have had to have been instakilled in a relatively safe fight against mostly disabled opponents a few seconds after he was at 100+ hp, death warded and petrification protected, and in addition an unrelated bug would have had to have occurred, seemingly deleting all the party members and enemies from the map.

 

I'm with you, Jabberwock. As I mentioned earlier, the working game mechanics hypotheses seemed strained at best under the circumstances and none of them would explain why your portraits disappeared, nor why the sprites have disappeared. I suspect a bug. 

 

All we need is an explanation: a documented or documentable bug or game mechanic that could explain what happened and, is, by a preponderance of evidence, a more likely cause than the working game mechanic hypotheses. With that, I'd support a bug reload.

 

Basically, if someone could say something to the effect of "Bug X can cause the portraits to vanish, the sprites to disappear, and the game to end. Bug X is well documented and or can be demonstrated. Bug X occurs when conditions Y & Z are satisfied. Conditions Y & Z were likely satisfied. Bug X explains the data better than the working game mechanic hypotheses." I'd be all for allowing your character to continue. That's basically what happened in Cuttysark's case.

 

Anyhoo. If you decide to continue your adventure off thread, then best of luck! But do stay tuned. Someone may ultimately offer a compelling explanation of what happened in the Mencar fight, just as Polytope and Gate70 eventually did in Cuttysark's case.

 

 

Best,

 

A.

 

 

FYI: Here's a link to the resolution of Cuttysark's case. It illustrates the type of evidence that we've found compelling in the past.

 

http://forum.bioware...nge/?p=16171158

[Grond0]

Right. But take another look at Jabberwock's screenshot. The portrait frames haven't disappeared, as they do in cases of chunking. The portrait frames are still there: the pictures are just missing. Further, all 6 of the frames are present but missing portraits- not just the charname's.

True.  I was assuming that the run was solo, but if there was a full party I agree that makes a bug even more likely.

[Alesia_BH]

Aphril, Elven Sorcerer: Sendai's Lair- Part 1

 

Aphril and Co. made modest progress today, due to my RL schedule. The only battle I have to report on is the Woodcutter fight.

 

The Woodcutter fight is trivial, if you prepare, but it can be dangerous if underestimated, as a pair of recent runs here sadly demonstrated. Aphril had no interest in making the same mistake. That didn't make her immune to error, however. Fortunately, Imoen was there to remedy the situation when Aphril dropped the ball.

 

The party opened as per usual: Aerie, Imoen, and Adara all cast ProMW while Vecna equipped Aphril launched straight into an Improved Alacrity. And so everyone knows: I prefer to cast ProMW in the opening rather than rely on See Enemy: Contingencies, because See Enemy: Contingencies don't always fire promptly. 

 

Spoiler

 

The Tank of Doom and Imoen then went to work on the Woodcutter. Imoen landed a solid non-critical backstab here. FYI: Vanilla Imoen can break 200 on a critical backstab with the BBoD equipped. 

 

Spoiler

 

As usual, Aphril's objective was to eliminate the casters and, minimally, thin some of the warrior fodder before handing off to Imoen. Unfortunately, the cycling of Aerie's True Sight was such that Aphril was not able to target, debuff, and destroy the Drow Wizard before the handoff. And since Aphril had been single-mindedly focused on the Wizard, all targets remained when Imoen took over. No matter: Imoen is vicious in Time Stop melee: 6 APR at 70 to 220 damage per hit. You can keep your kensai->mages. I'll take Imoen. And note well: I actually haven't been fully leveraging Imoen's melee abilities, since I've neglected to activate her Bhaalspawn power Draw on Holy Might.

 

Spoiler

 

Once the Imoen's Time Stop ended, only the ProMWed Wizard remained. Debuff (Aphril)->Black Blade of Disaster (Imoen)

 

Spoiler

 

 

I'll post on Sendai tomorrow (hopefully).

 

Best,

 

A.

 

 

Aerie the Avariel Tank of Doom, L19/16 C/M: Kills- 495; XP Value- 27%; Most Powerful Vanquished- Hive Mother; Favorite Spell- Holy Smite; Favorite Weapon- Flail of Ages;  Revivals: 0

 

Imoen the Quick, L7/21 T->M: Kills- 113; XP Value- 11%; Most Powerful Vanquished- Kangaxx the Demi-Lich; Favorite Spell- Stoneskins; Favorite Weapon- Melf's Minute Meteors; Revivals: 0

 

Adara the Bold, L22 Sorcerer: Kills- 455; XP Value- 28%; Most Powerful Vanquished- Bodhi; Favorite Spell- Invisibility; Favorite Weapon- Melf's Minute Meteors; Revivals: 1

 

Aphril the Almost Famous, L22 Sorcerer: Kills- 492; XP Value- 32%; Most Powerful Vanquished: Firkraag; Favorite Spell- Invisibility; Favorite Weapon- Melf's Minute Meteors

[Alesia_BH]

True.  I was assuming that the run was solo, but if there was a full party I agree that makes a bug even more likely.

 

Yes. It's weird. And according to Jabberwock, the sprites on the map disappeared too. I'm inclined to believe him given the image. That's really weird.

 

Based on the image and Jabberwock's report, I suspect a bug. Here's my only hesitation. I could dress up my understanding of what happened but, ultimately, it's: "Golly gee, I just don't know what happened there." And, cutting through the diction, that's what I'm hearing from everyone else, too.

 

I'd like us to have a better explanation before declaring this a bug that justifies a reload. I'd just like to hear a plausible mechanism combined with some reason to believe that that mechanism explains what we've seen in this case.

 

Best,

 

A.