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Baldur's Gate 2 No-Reload Challenge


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#13726
Alesia_BH

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[1] Well, very situationally: Shield of Reflection nullifies Fallen Solars. (AFAIUI, I haven't actually tried it, so caveat lector!)

 

Yes. It works.The Reflection Shield neutralizes the Fallen Solars and Illasera. 

 

That's a significant consideration in my opinion. Setting aside Transmuters and such, any well played arcane character will make it to the Throne: Any. Skalds, Sorcerers, K->Ms, B->Ms, Jesters: they'll all get there without difficulty. In discerning between, them I'm inclined to focus on suitability for the final fight.

 

Kensai->Mages are capable, no doubt. However, I fail to see anything that the kit offers that compensates for the loss of the Reflection Shield, Dispelling Arrows, and shorty saves. I'd take an F/I over a K->M without hesitation. I'd even take an unkitted F->M over a K->M. 

 

Best,

 

A.


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#13727
AnonymousHero

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Yes. It works.The Reflection Shield neutralizes the Fallen Solars and Illasera. 

 

That's a significant consideration in my opinion. Setting aside Transmuters and such, any well played arcane character will make it to the Throne: Any. Skalds, Sorcerers, K->Ms, B->Ms, Jesters: they'll all get there without difficulty. In discerning between, them I'm inclined to focus on suitability for the final fight.

 

Kensai->Mages are capable, no doubt. However, I fail to see anything that the kit offers that compensates for the loss of the Reflection Shield, Dispelling Arrows, and shorty saves. I'd take an F/I over a K->M without hesitation. I'd even take an unkitted F->M over a K->M. 

 

Just wondering in case you've tested: Are the Fallen Solar arrows considered magical or non-magical? If the latter, does the permanent immunity from normal weapons that can be obtained in "Hell" protect from it? If the former, does PfMW protect from it? (It seems that one of these should be true, by exclusion of the middle, but one never knows, given BG-logic :))


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#13728
Alesia_BH

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Just wondering in case you've tested: Are the Fallen Solar arrows considered magical or non-magical? If the latter, does the permanent immunity from normal weapons that can be obtained in "Hell" protect from it? If the former, does PfMW protect from it? (It seems that one of these should be true, by exclusion of the middle, but one never knows, given BG-logic :))

 

The Solar arrows are magical (+5). ProMW will stop them. Does that make the Reflex irrelevant? Not at all. 

 

The Fallen Solars are well scripted. They're highly evasive, they vanish constantly, and they insta-cast heal repeatedly. It can be difficult to finish them.

 

Since their arrows dispel without a save, you need to have some kind of protection up and running every second they're on the battlefield. If you have the Reflex, you can reserve your ProMWs. Without the Reflex you're forced to consume them. It is possible to run out, especially during the insane battle.

 

A similar argument applies with respect to Illasera. In this context, note that the Reflex permits F/Ms to safely execute the Death's Door strategy, which greatly simplifies the battle, especially on insane. 

 

Dispelling Arrows are horrible to face. They are also wonderful to wield, since they allow you to strip protections without clouding your aura- reducing the probability of getting caught in a Melissan Time Stop.

 

In the endgame, when characters can run low on defensive spells, Hardiness can be very helpful against Melissan's Bone Blades. Hardiness can also increase odds of survival if one is caught in a Mel Time Stop.

 

An F/M will be more likely to make it to the endgame. They will frequently have more ProMWs for the finish, due to the Reflex, and, of course, they can do more damage per round in the finish due to Improved Alacrity->Black Blade of Disaster->Greater Whirlwind->Critical Strike. Recall that the +APR offhand weapons won't hurt Mel. I'd rather have ten critical hits with a Black Blade of Disaster (or Iron Golem Fists).

 

It's not a close call in my estimation. It's a top tier versus middle tier comparison. 

 

If you were to ask me to do the SCS-Ascension battle on Insane (sans extraneous Mariliths) with an F/I, I'd say sure, and I'd have it done in a few hours. There is a good chance that I wouldn't need a reload. If you were to ask me to do it with a K->M, it would probably take me a few days to conjure up a high probability strategy, and I'm not certain I'd succeed.

 

Best,

 

A.


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#13729
Grond0

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Gate70/Grond0 multiplayer attempt 83 - (update 2)

Pasha, half-elf druid (Grond0) & Rholfre, half-elf dragon disciple (Gate70)

 

Pasha found it hard to make an impact today, but Rholfre did a sterling job of filling in the gaps to allow some decent progress.

 

On their way to find the Guild Contact they triggered the Suna Seni ambush.  Pasha eventually got success with her 3rd charm person - just in time to see her new friend incinerated by a sunfire as Rholfre cleaned up the battlefield.  

Spoiler

On arrival the Guild Contact found time to take one of his invulnerability potions - oh well, neither of us can use them anyway.  

Spoiler

Then on exit they found Parisa waiting.  Pasha lacked a weapon that could hurt her and her insect spells made no impact - Parisa regenerating faster than the damage taken. Eventually though Rholfre led the way to the temple and, once inside, her MMs and MMMs were able to beat down the vampire's defences.

Spoiler

 

Next up they moved on to the Graveyard to find more vampires.  First though they had a date with Pai'Na.  Pasha produced a fire elemental there, but it's only role was to provide further target practice after Rholfre incinerated everything else with a sunfire.  

Spoiler

Both characters were poisoned by spiders (we need to watch out for those as their poison goes through stoneskins in EE), but survived to take on more vampires.

 

The vampires on the top floor were mainly drawn into chasing Pasha and running into nasty surprises like MMM from Rholfre.  Tanova could have been a problem, but was surprisingly affected by a chaos spell and didn't recover.  The duo had just enough in the tank to finish off all opponents, though they were down to the Crimson Dart to finish the last vampire.  There was a tragi-comic moment when the duo had already finished off all nearby enemies, but the sight of Rholfre (who is admittedly a scary lass) was enough to send Haz into convulsions anyway.

Spoiler

 

Downstairs Rholfre ran into a problem when a greater ghoul managed to paralyse her, but a summoned wolf did well to distract it away before it could enjoy the feast.  An array of summons led into the final room, with the expectation that Rholfre might do a bit of cleansing with sunfire after they died - however, they triumphed instead.  

Spoiler

Upstairs a rest allowed a fresh collection of summons for Bodhi.  However, she proved a trickier opponent and quickly took them down before chasing Rholfre and getting one blow in.  Bodhi was at near death herself, but Rholfre still let out a sigh of relief that her 7 remaining levels would not fall further as Bodhi decided enough was enough.

Spoiler

 

On the way to the temple they rescued Renfeld without difficulty.  

Spoiler

Then, before paying the temple Rholfre decided to seek a free restoration by doing the Sir Sarles quest.  That immediately resulted in an orog ambush, but Rholfre even without sunfires still lit up the encounter with a couple of fireballs.  Arriving at Neb's house they successfully released the child spirits to give Rholfre his missing levels back.

Spoiler

 

After reporting to Aran Linvail (and explaining they still had just a few little jobs to finish off) the duo returned Renfeld.  They went unbuffed into Prebek's house and that could have ended in disaster when Pasha got off an insect plague, but both her and Rholfre were confused in return.  However, Rholfre had already started casting fireball and finished that action to clear the enemies.  

Spoiler

That still left 2 confused characters in close proximity though and Pasha scored several hits with MMMs

Spoiler

before the duo thankfully sought opposite ends of the house and stayed there until they regained their senses.

 

Starting Mae'Var's tasks they went to the Temple District to get a necklace before diving down into the sewers there.  The troll and rakshasa both became easy victims there before the session closed with an assault on Tarnor's gang. Disabling spells did a good job there, enabling summons to concentrate on Gaius and he was soon beaten down with the help of distance support by Rholfre's MMMs.

Spoiler

 

Stats:

Pasha, druid 13, 61 HPs (incl. 5 from Helm), 91 kills

Rholfre, dragon disciple 11, 62 HPs (incl. 5 from ioun stone), 168 kills, 0 deaths (1 in BG1)


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#13730
AnonymousHero

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The Solar arrows are magical (+5). ProMW will stop them. Does that make the Reflex irrelevant? Not at all. 

 

The Fallen Solars are well scripted. They're highly evasive, they vanish constantly, and they insta-cast heal repeatedly. It can be difficult to finish them.

 

Since their arrows dispel without a save, you need to have some kind of protection up and running every second they're on the battlefield. If you have the Reflex, you can reserve your ProMWs. Without the Reflex you're forced to consume them. It is possible to run out, especially during the insane battle.

 

A similar argument applies with respect to Illasera. In this context, note that the Reflex permits F/Ms to safely execute the Death's Door strategy, which greatly simplifies the battle, especially on insane. 

 

Dispelling Arrows are horrible to face. They are also wonderful to wield, since they allow you to strip protections without clouding your aura- reducing the probability of getting caught in a Melissan Time Stop.

 

In the endgame, when characters can run low on defensive spells, Hardiness can be very helpful against Melissan's Bone Blades. Hardiness can also increase odds of survival if one is caught in a Mel Time Stop.

 

An F/M will be more likely to make it to the endgame. They will frequently have more ProMWs for the finish, due to the Reflex, and, of course, they can do more damage per round in the finish due to Improved Alacrity->Black Blade of Disaster->Greater Whirlwind->Critical Strike. Recall that the +APR offhand weapons won't hurt Mel. I'd rather have ten critical hits with a Black Blade of Disaster (or Iron Golem Fists).

 

It's not a close call in my estimation. It's a top tier versus middle tier comparison. 

 

If you were to ask me to do the SCS-Ascension battle on Insane (sans extraneous Mariliths) with an F/I, I'd say sure, and I'd have it done in a few hours. There is a good chance that I wouldn't need a reload. If you were to ask me to do it with a K->M, it would probably take me a few days to conjure up a high probability strategy, and I'm not certain I'd succeed.

 

 

Thank you, that's incredibly good advice! (AFAICT, anyway... haven't faced this too many times :))


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#13731
Alesia_BH

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Thank you, that's incredibly good advice! (AFAICT, anyway... haven't faced this too many times :))

 

Note well though: My advice can only extend as far as my experience. It's rare that a player explores the entire space of possibilities in a given battle. I'm sure there are avenues to victory that I haven't considered yet, and perhaps there is one that a K->M is particularly well suited for. I can't say for certain. All I can say is that given my playing style and experience with the fight, I'd find a F/M substantially superior to a K->M, especially in solo play.  

 

Anyhoo. Is there any chance that you'll join us in the challenge, A_H?

 

Best,

 

A.


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#13732
Alesia_BH

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@Relay.

 

Are you out there? I was intrigued by some of your comments earlier- particularly your comment about interesting ideas for interaction on the forums. I was looking forward to seeing a run from you. Do you still intend to join us?

Best,

 

A.



#13733
AnonymousHero

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Note well though: My advice can only extend as far as my experience. It's rare that a player explores the entire space of possibilities in a given battle. I'm sure there are avenues to victory that I haven't considered yet, and perhaps there is one that a K->M is particularly well suited for. I can't say for certain. All I can say is that given my playing style and experience with the fight, I'd find a F/M substantially superior to a K->M, especially in solo play. 

 

Anyhoo. Is there any chance that you'll join us in the challenge, A_H?

 

Indeed. Case in point: I would have never thought much of the Bounty Hunter class until I tried it, based on your runs :).

 

I guess I might try a fresh (serious) run, but I'm not sure at this point. Currently, I'm experimenting a bit with "allow all races to dual/multi and allow all multis to all races", but I think that might make things a little to easy. (Plus, I'm experimenting with a fresh install. Gotta try it out pretty thoroughly before I commit :))

 

EDIT: Actually, I seem to recall there being a little weirdness with BH trap level calculations, so perhaps a BH->M wouldn't be out of the question. (I am a sucker for Arcane spells, so I tend to gravitate towards some type of mage.)


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#13734
Alesia_BH

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I guess I might try a fresh (serious) run, but I'm not sure at this point. 

 

Understood. It would be wonderful if you posted. Let us know!

 


 

 I'm experimenting with a fresh install. Gotta try it out pretty thoroughly before I commit  :))

 

I think that's wise. Historically I've felt compelled to post on every game I've played -even every partial game I've played. But I think it would be better for all involved if I at least confirmed the stability of my installs before entering characters. That's my intention going forward, at least. 

 

 

EDIT: Actually, I seem to recall there being a little weirdness with BH trap level calculations, so perhaps a BH->M wouldn't be out of the question. (I am a sucker for Arcane spells, so I tend to gravitate towards some type of mage.)

 

That's my understanding as well, although I've never tried it. It feels too exploity for my taste.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a BH->M though, if that's what tickles.

 

Best,

 

A.



#13735
AnonymousHero

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That's my understanding as well, although I've never tried it. It feels too exploity for my taste.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a BH->M though, if that's what tickles.

 

As it turns out, it seems to be possible to do a BH/M multi-class (with ShadowKeeper) in my new install... I think it's probably overpowered, but I'm very tempted to at least try a serious run-through.

 

EDIT: Yeah, yeah, I know... OP&c, but I'm playing for funzies. :)



#13736
Alesia_BH

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As it turns out, it seems to be possible to do a BH/M multi-class (with ShadowKeeper) in my new install... I think it's probably overpowered, but I'm very tempted to at least try a serious run-through.

 

:P

 

Sounds outrageous. But also interesting. I'm intrigued. 

 

Best,

 

A.


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#13737
Jabberwock

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K/M, Jaheira, Haer'dalis, Viconia, Jan (-> Imoen) and Edwin Continue their No-Reload Run through SoA

 

We finished up chapter 3, including a visit to Bodhi. The party (somewhat embarassingly) wasn't able to defeat her. Her bloodsuck disabled our fighters and we didn't have the mage power to get through her resistance and regen. Oh well. A minute or so of nervously jogging charname around and she said she had had enough and left. 

 

After the disaster that was spawning level 11 Imoen last run, the party was VERY careful to do it properly this time.

 

2015-08-08%2009_29_08-Baldurs%20Gate%20I

 

Success!

 

Spellhood dungeon went quickly. There is one somewhat difficult fight here, namely the pack of yuan-ti mages by the big head. Eventually they went down and we cleared the rest of the dungeon. No lich with the undead spawn in the lower section of the dungeon. Party did all the riddles (spellhold is downright pleasant sometimes...) and then rested up to face Jon. The plan was to spam him with high level AoE spells to try to mess up his casting, while using AoE disables to deal with the clones. Then take down his defences and slayer change him the moment he is vulnerable (slayer change is  sometimes underappreciated I think - it's such a great on-demand increase in fighter power if charname isn't a fighter-type).

 

2015-08-08%2017_20_52-Baldurs%20Gate%20I

 

Firestorm by Jon visible. Unfortunately it also nicked some of the lunies but fortunately they don't go hostile. Jon is already on his contingency PfMW here.

 

2015-08-08%2017_21_50-Baldurs%20Gate%20I

 

A well placed AHW from Wanev takes out one our two of the clones; charname is slayer changed and beating up Jon.

 

2015-08-08%2017_22_22-Baldurs%20Gate%20I

 

And Jon goes down. Whew. I did not see him use any HLA's, which I was worried about because he is supposed to have them per this run's adjusted SCS install to have "select" casters use HLAs. Maybe he pulls his punches here (a planetar would have been very, very scary) or maybe he just didn't have time to given how short the fight was and how often he was being hit. 

 

2015-08-08%2017_53_52-Baldurs%20Gate%20I

 

Another little tweak from last run. At least in my install, the inventory loss during spellhold wipes stacks (i.e. critically potions and ammo). Ammo we ignored because no one really has any valuable ranged ammo, but potions this time the party was thoughtful enough to leave behind in Brynlaw.

 

2015-08-08%2018_02_24-Baldurs%20Gate%20I

 

We head to the Underwater City for some easy experience and items. Cloak of Mirroring is moved to ToB so we won't be getting that, but the +2 cloak is nice as is the decent amount of quest experience and the zone is quick and safe.

 

2015-08-09%2007_19_22-Baldurs%20Gate%20I

 

A mistake in the Underdark. I normally steal from all the merchants when Ust Natha opens up. Unfortunately, Haer'dalis wasn't quite up to the task of stealing from Carlig and got caught, which turned him and his group hostile. I was a little surprised by that, because I was under the impression that getting caught earned a warning or merchant closure, and now am curious whether it is easy to wipe one's game in Athkatla stealing from shops. Anyhow, we already got the spell shield scroll (the party's second) so the damage is 2 reputation and a few less important scrolls and potions. 

 

2015-08-09%2009_07_47-Baldurs%20Gate%20I

 

The fight with Deirex got VERY scary. Without HLA's he's kind of a pushover by the time the party reaches him, as most of us are immune to dispel and fairly damage resistant. My biggest fear was demons summons + a dispelled Jaheira leaving the party in a difficult position. Plan in that situation would probably have been to slayer change the demons to death, which I think would have worked. 

 

Instead what happened is he summoned a planetar (!) dispelled and meteored Jaheira to death (!) and then basically proceeded to go ham on my party. Fortunately, Edwin had already landed a second RR to take out his spell trap, and so we decided to focus on the lich and try to keep the planetar busy with summon monster spam from the wand. We really had no way to deal with the planetar with Jaheira dead (outside of maybe slayer change, and I wasn't sure whether the slayer was vulnerable to on-hit dispel + vorpal from the planetar, which he may very well have been. Incidentally, chapter 4 is really the low point of the Haer'dalis saga, where he has pathetic damage output even with improved haste vs. Jaheira who has 8 APR. On the other hand, Jaheira is easy to Dispel. One other quick tangent is that I haven't decided what the best first move is for Jaheira after getting her buffs wiped. I think it may be the potion that gives 50% non-physical resistance + auto-saves which should keep her safe from any instakills).

 

2015-08-09%2009_17_19-Baldurs%20Gate%20I

 

With some help from the spell strike wand we took down Deirex and then hid from the planetar until unsummoned. Very scary fight - I'm actually not sure how to do this safely without a F/M who could deal with the planetar reliably. 

 

Next fight is with House Jaelet. I'm a little worried here because the cleric I know has HLA's, but I think it will be OK as no planetars and the cleric should be easier to disrupt / focus down vs. Deirex.


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#13738
Alesia_BH

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Looking good, Jabberwock!

 

Nice update!

 

Best,

 

A.

 

Btw. Have you considered converting your PNGs to JPEG, reducing the file size? I used to post PNG's straight out of the OS X screen capture utility, but then someone pointed out that the files sizes were absurdly large. Converting may be worth it. Some Forumites have bandwidth issues. 



#13739
Dogdancing

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Apparently the Quad save vs computer glitches is really stinky today, cause we have yet to get and stay connected longer then 5 min. I may break my "must die in some ridiculous way each game session" simple because we are not on long enough for us to get into any trouble.


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#13740
Grond0

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Apparently the Quad save vs computer glitches is really stinky today, cause we have yet to get and stay connected longer then 5 min. I may break my "must die in some ridiculous way each game session" simple because we are not on long enough for us to get into any trouble.

All is well - the backstabbing thieves in Mae'Var's guild did the job :P.

 

(I caused the original problems with the Quad today by not realising I hadn't created a MP installation on my new computer :()


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#13741
Gate70

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A two week Quad Multiplayer gap since http://forum.bioware...0#entry19445623 means the party are itching for action. One new computer with no suitable BGT install delayed things for 40 minutes or so, and a very flaky Gameranger session saw plenty of drops after that. Here's a typical sample from today where Wewa joined, switched to fullscreen, selected her dagger and dropped again.
Spoiler

The drops were but a minor distraction though and the party soon scooped up Renfeld before continuing to the Temple District in search of a Weathermistress necklace for Mae'var. Corheal was worried about the poisoned Harper expiring on his watch, but Strofe and Brazil reckoned he could last a while before the toxins overwhelmed him.
 
After dumping Renfeld back with his buddies, the next stop was Rayic Gethras. Strofe was dosed up with liberal anti-mage buffs and after sneaking a few hits on Rayic he switched to fists to foil Protection from Magic Weapons. Hence the unconscious Rayic was devoured by a ravenous plague of insects summoned by Brazil.
Spoiler

After fobbing Xzar off it was time to deal with Mae'var, one slight mishap was recorded (below) but otherwise all went well and Wewa obtained boots, armour and a sword from his possessions.
 

Apparently the Quad save vs computer glitches is really stinky today, cause we have yet to get and stay connected longer then 5 min. I may break my "must die in some ridiculous way each game session" simple because we are not on long enough for us to get into any trouble.

There's always time, and an AI script was suspected of switching Wewa to a shortbow so a Shadow Thief could get a meaty backstab (56) allowing Zyntris to get an easier kill. He gloated for, oh, about one quarter of a round, before joining her.
Spoiler

 
The kill-board was looking a bit sparse between interruptions and dropped clients losing any kills they made. Strofe added 15 to his tally, Corheal scored a duck, Brazil notched up 7 and Wewa added 1 to her figures.
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#13742
Jabberwock

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I'll do a write-up on it later once I've taken a breather but suffice it to say the timer on the egg guards is... shorter than I thought it was.


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#13743
Grond0

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Gate70/Grond0 multiplayer attempt 83 - (update 3)

Pasha, half-elf druid (Grond0) & Rholfre, half-elf dragon disciple (Gate70)

 

My failure to realise I didn't have a BGT multi-player installation for the Quad was partly due to having had an earlier MP session - but this one is in BG2EE :huh:.

 

Yesterday's session felt pretty much in control, but that wasn't the case today - certainly not early on.  The first real action was an ambush by Tanova and a couple of buddies.  The duo nipped into the Council building to allow Rholfre to make use of spells, but she didn't have much to offer after immediately being drained 6 levels by a couple of hits!  Pasha used a few spells and wand blasts to scare off the 2 subsidiary vampires, but Tanova's regeneration was faster than any damage the duo could do - even before Rholfre was charmed and torn to bits by the Council guards!

Spoiler

 

After patronising the local temple the duo rested and the availability of fresh summons allowed them to take revenge on Tanova - although she did take Bylanna with her.

Spoiler

 

After giving Sir Sarles the real illithium for a change the duo carried on with Mae'Var's tasks.  Rayic Gethras thought he was in with a chance when a Symbol: Fear sent Pasha running, but rapid firing MMMs effectively shut down further casting once PFMW wore off.  

Spoiler

Mae'Var himself was massacred by summons after a few sunfires had cleansed upstairs.

Spoiler

 

At the Bridge District Pasha was able to pick up the Horn without even being mazed - the MR of the AoP saving her the trouble.  Quickly solving the skinner murders the duo went downstairs to sort out the Rune Assassins.  A slight lack of co-ordination made that a bit more chancy than it should have been, but a fire elemental showed how it should be done against the bone golem.

Spoiler

 

Reluctantly, Rholfre decided it was time to open the purse strings and cough up for a magic license.  That was quickly put to good use against the Fallen Paladins.

Spoiler

 

Venturing out of the city the duo went to Trademeet in search of a magic scimatar for Pasha. The encounter with the genies went well, with Kitthix providing a target inside the tent after the efreeti was obtained outside.  Moving on to the Druid Grove a large group of trolls provided some hard work before finally succumbing.  Rholfre was rewarded with a level and the death spell learned from that made the inside of the Troll Mound simple.

Spoiler

 

A couple of groups of druids were not much of an obstacle. but there was a need to retreat and rest before going back in to finish off the rakshasas.

Spoiler

Pasha accidentally showed herself early against the final group of druids - that resulted in Rholfre being hit by call lightning before Pasha's similar retaliation ended the contest. Inside, Pasha was under the effect of improved invisibility when confronting Faldorn and an insect plague at the start of that contest effectively sealed the win.  

Spoiler

A rest in the Grove resulted in a quest to find and kill Nilthiri - the death spell being useful there against a host of diseased rats.  

Spoiler

However, no more quests seemed forthcoming after that - so the duo returned to Trademeet.  They intended to clear the tomb using sunfires, but they were not effective against skeleton warriors (at least when used by Gate70) and old-fashioned MMMs had to finish the job.  

Spoiler

Helping Tiris save his girlfriend was much more straightforward.

 

Stats:

Pasha, druid 13, 61 HPs (incl. 5 from Helm), 127 kills

Rholfre, dragon disciple 13, 63 HPs (incl. 5 from ioun stone), 256 kills, 1 death (+1 in BG1)


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#13744
Jabberwock

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K/M, Jaheira, Haer'dalis, Viconia, Imoen and Edwin Continue their No-Reload Run through SoA

 

In the prior to entry to this series, the party was preparing to face House Jaelet, and we were a bit worried about HLA's from the cleric. It was a pretty interesting fight, in which Jaheira basically murdered everbody (for some reason the mages weren't casting stone skin). Jaheira with a bunch of potions buffs is ~25 damage a hit hitting every swing at 8apr so enough to kill about 2 drow a round. The fight was over pretty quickly, and Jaheira killed most of the named drow before they could do anything. <3. Anyhow, I'm not going to spend more space on that fight because what happened next was we accidentally made all of Ust Natha hostile. Oops.

 

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Here's where the problem starts. Apparently, you have about a round or two to kill the hostile egg guards or they sound the alarm. I thought party members auto-hit / auto-killed the guards in melee, but actually what they do is auto-kill on hit.... i.e. you still have to hit. So Haer'dalis proceeded to roll a bunch of 3's and 5's and not take out the second guard, who sounded the alarm. A buffed up Jaheira could have avoided all this, but lessons learned I suppose.

 

Now, normally when you swap the eggs and kill the matron + phaere in the ritual, the party has a limited time to get out of Ust Natha before the city goes hostile. It's important to get out quickly in SCS, because a hostile city rapidly spawns large parties of increasingly high-level drow, under the theory that it should be impossible for the party to defeat an entire city. When the eggs are properly retrieved, the party has about enough time to haste, mass invisible and run to the exit after picking up the matron's stuff and will see the city go hostile when they are right by the exit. When the egg guards raise the alarm, the city is immediately hostile, and packs of drow start not only attacking the party but also clogging up the narrow streets throughout the city. In addition, the party needs to kill the matron before the city gates will open, as she has (presumably magically) sealed them. The only saving grace is that the drow can't see invisible, although they can and will dispel invisible if you are nearby, even if they can't see anyone (thanks SCS!).

 

The party's first order of business was to completely forget about the sealed gate and sneak with relative ease to the exit. "Wow it's disappointing that we not only lose out on the experience but also the matron's items, including the ring of spell deflection that Viconia had her eye on," the party thought. And then the gate was blocked and we realized, with some non-trivial level of terror, that we had to go all the way back through the city and kill the matron before we could leave.

 

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Sneaking back to the matron wasn't too bad, because there weren't enough packs of drow to block the streets yet. So we got back to the temple with a minimum of fuss to take on the matron. The Matron also has HLA's, including apparently Storm of Vengeance, although we didn't see a Deva or Energy Blades. Fortunately, Jaheira continued her MVP streak and killed numerous drow, including the matron (somehow not being breached until the very end of the fight). Firestorm from Viconia was extremely helpful as usual against the drow, as it ignores magic resistance and does a ton of fire damage, which the party is (when buffed) immune to. Charname also slayer changed and overall we killed somewhere between 15-25 drow. It's hard to see in the screen shot but its shoulder to shoulder drow beneath the autoloot window.

 

Now we just had to get out of the city. We resurrected Haerdalis (who had died when his skins ran out - we really need to be more careful with his buff management), picked up his stuff, and had everyone quaff invisibility potions and head for the temple door.

 

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The first problem was that the drow from inside the temple had received reinforcements (SCS spawn of 6-8 drow) and had followed us out of the temple. Several party members were trapped by the drow coming out of the temple, and we knew there were more drow just out of sight to the southwest, who could show up at any moment. Haerdalis did not have any buffs (critically, stone skin), and was very vulnerable. Jaheira broke invisiblility to the southwest to get the drow to move and we started running.

 

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A careful viewer of the above shot will notice a party member (Haerdalis) to the north east, stuck behind a pack of drow. He had some pathing issue when I wasn't paying full attention and fell behind. At this point, we decided that he probably wasn't going to make it and transfered his important items (could have been all his items, but we felt some loss was appropriate) and left him for dead. I don't like abandoning bodies + resurrecting, because it feels cheesy, but I'm going to give Haer'dalis a pass here because we didn't have much of a choice and also because it was only a pathing issue that got him left behind in the first place. 

 

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We continued making progress through the city, leaving behind the big pack of drow by Deirex's tower. Unfortunately a single drow fighter was blocking the street, and we were unable to pass without engaging him. I'm not sure if this is a fixed spawn, but I presume just bad luck. We broke invisibility to kill him. A lnumber of drow from the west came to attack after we broke invisibility, but we very able to get past them once we could reset our invisibility with potions.

 

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Finally, the exit is in sight.  We had been dealing with the frequent invisibility dispels by keeping our aura's clear and re-quaffing invisibility potions immediately after dispel. We were a bit worried about getting stuck again between the drow we had drawn killing the fighter, now to the north east, and the half dozen or so drow camping by the exit, but made it through successfuly. 

 

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Even when the Ust Natha is completed properly, a handful of drow follow the party out of the city.

 

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When it is not completed properly, considerably more drow follow. I estimate that this is most of the drow by the exit and by the drow fighter we killed in the city, but does not include the addition 20 or so drow we left by Deirex's tower, or the other maybe dozen we snuck by that never saw us, or the other drow in parts of the city we didn't walk past.

 

Jaheira, again playing the role of clear MVP, took a blocking position up on the bridge while Imoen and Edwin threw acid fog and cloudkill from behind her. Whenever Jaheira got dispelled, she drank a potion of magic shielding, which protected her from anything she could save against. At one instance, she got hit by a finger of death shortly after drinking the potion, so this was an important strategy. There were a lot of drow with crossbows, so we gave her the boots with +5 to missile to give her -20+ AC vs. missile including all the bonuses. Eventually, the clouds wore through the drow and we finished the stragglers (firestorm would have made this much easier).

 

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The aftermath.


  • Alesia_BH, ussnorway, Serg BlackStrider et 1 autre aiment ceci

#13745
biowherewolf

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Hi gang. I tried the challenge a number of years ago, but was surprised to see it was still going! 

It's good to see y'all still here. 

--BW


  • Dogdancing aime ceci

#13746
Jabberwock

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K/M, Jaheira, Haer'dalis, Viconia, Imoen and Edwin Continue their No-Reload Run through SoA

 

In this episode, we clean up almost all of the rest of the underdark. 

 

Question for those more experienced than I: how do you deal with beholders (and particularly elite beholders, i.e. Orbs / Hive Mother) without cheesing them to death with skeleton warriors?  I had trouble with them even WITH cheesing them with skeleton warriors (looking at you Hive Mother, with your see invisible...). Note that I do not have Shield of Balduran (SCS removed from game) or Cloak of Mirroring (SCS moved to ToB).

 

Anyhow:

 

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First we killed Adalon. PfC on everybody, no big deal.

 

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Then we took on Alchra (Underdark imprisoned lich), who was generally a jerk but at least did not wish breach us. He did summon a planetar...

 

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Which healed once...

 

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No make that twice...

 

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Sorry I meant three times...

 

One of the very small number of SCS changes I'm not sure I'm happy with is the instant-casting celestials, particularly Planetars. Plantetars were already grossly powerful, and now they can instantly cast a zillion level 7 priest spells, and creeping doom, and heal 3 times (!) each? I'm not sure why this is a good change... were mages not already powerful enough? Anyhow, rant over, we still killed it but sheesh.

 

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Then we ambushed Vithal with firestorm + acid fog + cloud kill as he emerged from the final portal. Supposedly he is evil so we don't feel too bad.

 

And then the party decided to face the beholders, which... ugh.... not sure if we want to do that again, even if there is a few 100k experience in there.

 

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First we mass invisibled to sneak past the two beholders guarding the entrance and then killed the drow to get some breathing room.

 

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Begin skeleton march of doom. Plain old beholders and gauths fall easily to this strategy as they can't see the invisible spotter and they can only very slowly damage the rugged, 90% MR skeletons. 

 

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But the hive mother can see invisible, and has an infinite number of stone skins, refreshing every few rounds.

 

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And because she's hard to keep a spotter on, she can sneak up on your party...

 

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I couldn't think of anything better than this. Viconia spots the hive mother while skeletons melee her. Whenever Viconia gets hit by anti-magic ray, she drinks a potion of magic protection, pushing her back over 100% MR. Expensive and cost us about 4 potions, but it was the best we could do. Skeletons won't fight without a spotter, and using the entire party to engage seemed like risking permadeath through shattering, etc. Edwin tried to help with incendiary cloud (reasoning that unlike firestorm, it wouldn't cut through the skeleton's MR), but it never did any damage. Hive mothers appear to have very high, maybe even 100% MR.

 

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Anyhow, finally she went down.

 

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Then we lost sight of an Elder Orb, and this happened. That is chaname, eating an anti-magic ray and staring down the barrel of a death ray (shortly followed by all the other rays, although not shown). Fortunately, we saw the dispel in the status log and paused. Also fortunately, charnames aura was not clouded so he drank a potion of magic shielding (100% saves) and lived to tell the tale.

 

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We were out of skeletons at this point but were able to tie the second orb up with a fire elemental long enough for two firestorms to take him out. For some reason although he was pfME he was not PfF.


  • ussnorway, Serg BlackStrider et Hansefar aiment ceci

#13747
Alesia_BH

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Once again: Nice work, Jabberwock!

 

 

Question for those more experienced than I: how do you deal with beholders (and particularly elite beholders, i.e. Orbs / Hive Mother) without cheesing them to death with skeleton warriors?  I had trouble with them even WITH cheesing them with skeleton warriors (looking at you Hive Mother, with your see invisible...). Note that I do not have Shield of Balduran (SCS removed from game) or Cloak of Mirroring (SCS moved to ToB).

 

That's an excellent question. I don't like Balduran, I don't like Mirroring, and I don't like summons. How do I fight beholders? Beholders are cheesy and they demand cheese in return. Or do they?

 

In the original game, Spell Shield was not dispelled by beholder anti-magic rays. Some viewed this as a bug, others viewed it as intentional. Setting aside the intent question, the classic Spell Shield behavior gave arcane characters a relatively satisfying means of defeating beholders: Using Spell Shield and a combination of buffs, arcane character could face beholders toe-to-toe rather than hiding behind summons. I always liked that. It was cheesy, but it was less cheesy than the alternatives, such as Mirroring and the Skelly March. I found Beholder fights more satisfying, not, less once I discovered Spell Shield.

 

For better or worse, that doesn't work anymore. In more recent versions of SCS (v21 onward) Spell Shield is now dispelled by anti magic ray, leaving characters open to subsequent attacks on magical defenses. The Skelly March has returned. That said, there are other options. Here are a few that I've used in recent runs.

 

  • Simmer Down!: SCS v30 offers a PnP Beholder Anti-Magic Ray option. This changes anti-magic ray so that it foils harmful spells (such as subsequent rays) in addition to beneficial spells for one round. For those who prefer to play without Mirroring and Balduran, I think it makes sense. Less cheesy beholders, mandate less cheese. I think it's the way to go.
  • Massive Attack: With enough firepower, beholders can be neutralized before they can act. Gauths and standard beholders can be insta-killed with Sequenecers and Triggers. Elder orbs and hive mothers take move planning, but they too can fall to Massive Attack. For some illustration of the Massive Attack approach, see this post from Aphril's run: http://forum.bioware...e/?p=19461088 . (Note that the entire party fought beholders toe-to-toe and escaped without injury. Note also that I used PnP anti-magic ray in this game.)
  • Dispel This!: I'm currently playing a barbarian, so Massive Attack is out of the question. My intention is to rely on undispellablle defenses. Beholders have two damage types: Electricity and Magic Damage. The Cloak of Reflection can handle the former, the BoIB can partially handle the latter. If you have Valygar's armor, and a party member who can use it, that too can help. With the damage rays foiled, all you have to do is make your saves. Fortunately, many warriors can get their saves in the safe zone without using dispelable effects. This approach works. Although it can be nerve wracking, and note well: Elder orbs can cast Imprisonment in some installs. Where that's a risk, it's a serious complication.   

 

Anyhoo. Those are some options that have worked for me. Would anyone else like to share beholder tactics for those on a low cheese diet?

 

Best,

 

A.


  • Serg BlackStrider aime ceci

#13748
Alesia_BH

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One of the very small number of SCS changes I'm not sure I'm happy with is the instant-casting celestials, particularly Planetars. Plantetars were already grossly powerful, and now they can instantly cast a zillion level 7 priest spells, and creeping doom, and heal 3 times (!) each? I'm not sure why this is a good change... were mages not already powerful enough? Anyhow, rant over, we still killed it but sheesh.

 

I sympathize.

 

In older versions of SCS, there was an option which caused celestials to cast spells like normal wizards. That went a long way toward rebalancing Planetars. I wish current editions still had that option.

 

Best,

 

A.



#13749
Alesia_BH

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Hi gang. I tried the challenge a number of years ago, but was surprised to see it was still going! 

It's good to see y'all still here. 

--BW

 

I remember you, BWhere! It's good to see you again!

 

Are you ready for another run?

 

Best,

A.


  • biowherewolf aime ceci

#13750
Alesia_BH

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@Jabbewock. I just read your Ust NAtha post. Great stuff!

 

Best,

 

A.