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[corey_russell]

Grond0 wrote...

corey_russell wrote...

Grond0 wrote...

I think I have sympathy for both sides of the discussion here. I don't remember a character dying in an ambush for a long time now, so would agree they don't seem remotely threatening. However, I can still see that there is a possibility of this happening. As with everything in the game so much depends on your settings. If you are playing on insane then a single critical from an archer could do 32 HPs - that would mean that a druid, for instance, might need to be as much as 8th level to survive a single arrow (and there are plenty of travel encounters available where it is impossible to avoid the chance of being targeted by more than one).

Grond0, I dont know how you can say the bold statement - don't you remember Gate70 who died in a Wyvern ambush, not long ago (he was using the cursed sword a lot that run) -- you commented on that death even. I myself have had numerous no-reloads end to ambushes when my main character is a mage, also to a number of my thieves.

Sorry my mistake.  Try this one - I don't remember one of my characters dying in an ambush for a long time now.  Your mages could use invisibility to avoid ambushes entirely (in a party even if others die the PC does not).  Gate70 could have chosen not to carry the cursed sword - wyvern ambushes are then easy to run away from without being attacked.

There's a little detail you are missing there Grond0 - you need level 3 to cast invisibility which is 5000 experience I think. My mages are in parties (need their meat shields). I suppose you could be solo until you were level 3 then get party members, but that would almost suggest having  party before you are level 3 is a mistake if you are a mage, and that's hard to believe. And yeah I know you could attempt to blind Droth's nymph and if it takes, there's level 3 right there, assuming a mage could take her down with level 1/2 thac0. (miss out on that nice helm for your fighters but oh well I guess)

[Alesia_BH]

corey_russell wrote...
There's a little detail you are missing there Grond0 - you need level 3 to cast invisibility which is 5000 experience I think.  

I suspect that Grond0 is aware of the level requirement for casting invisibility from your book.

He's also likely aware of avenues for quick easy experience, the locations of the invisibility potions, the locations of the invisibility scrolls, and a whole host of other bits of minutae which permit safe passage in the early going.

Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 15 décembre 2011 - 06:53 .

[Grond0]

corey_russell wrote...
There's a little detail you are missing there Grond0 - you need level 3 to cast invisibility which is 5000 experience I think. My mages are in parties (need their meat shields). I suppose you could be solo until you were level 3 then get party members, but that would almost suggest having  party before you are level 3 is a mistake if you are a mage, and that's hard to believe. And yeah I know you could attempt to blind Droth's nymph and if it takes, there's level 3 right there, assuming a mage could take her down with level 1/2 thac0. (miss out on that nice helm for your fighters but oh well I guess).

Indeed - killing Shoal will provide you with 5,000 HP on her own and you can then recruit a party after that, though there is plenty of other XP available without any risk of a ranged ambush.  By the way any character can kill Shoal easily with ranged attacks - no need for spells, just run round and shoot her (making sure she never gets close enough to talk).

[Grond0]

I've made a bit of progress with Certes before going to work.  Just to clarify my intentions the aim is for her never to be targeted with weapon or spell in BG1.
- in the initial area used blind on Xzar to render him helpless and took items from him and Montaron (would have just run away if blind failed).
- haven't bothered with Shoal recently, but she seemed an appropriate target for a zero risk run and got Certes to level 2/2.  Back at High Hedge learned invisibility.
- on to Beregost and gave a book to Firebead and used charm person to get Marl to kill Algernon before killing him in turn.  Also realised Certes hadn't yet got a familiar so summoned a little dragon.  Normally I just shoot Karlat up from behind the pillars, but this time speeded things up a bit by blinding him first.  Also handed back Perdue's sword (fighter 3) and reunited a woman with her slimy intended (though had to use up the genuine antidote to do it).
- on the road south charmed the Flaming Fist after Viconia.  This turned her hostile; tried to charm her as well, but eventually gave up and just killed her (as no reputation loss anyway).  The Fist acted as a front guard against arrows, but died approaching the last hobgoblin archer, so the familiar finished off the area. Returning a letter to Mirianne gave illusionist level 3 and a second source of invisibility (not used to that point as not travelled anywhere with ranged ambushers).
- travelled invisibly down to Nashkel and picked up the ankheg armour (just sold this as the intention is never to need armour anyway), talked to Noober, saved a boy from his pet wyvern and blinded/killed Neira.

[corey_russell]

Grond0 wrote...

corey_russell wrote...
There's a little detail you are missing there Grond0 - you need level 3 to cast invisibility which is 5000 experience I think. My mages are in parties (need their meat shields). I suppose you could be solo until you were level 3 then get party members, but that would almost suggest having  party before you are level 3 is a mistake if you are a mage, and that's hard to believe. And yeah I know you could attempt to blind Droth's nymph and if it takes, there's level 3 right there, assuming a mage could take her down with level 1/2 thac0. (miss out on that nice helm for your fighters but oh well I guess).

Indeed - killing Shoal will provide you with 5,000 HP on her own and you can then recruit a party after that, though there is plenty of other XP available without any risk of a ranged ambush.  By the way any character can kill Shoal easily with ranged attacks - no need for spells, just run round and shoot her (making sure she never gets close enough to talk).

Yes, you've told this to me before, and when I tried it in a no-reload, it ended. I know it can be done, as you've done it ton of times, but I just don't got the skills it seems. I've never been a fan of kiting in EQ (in EQ "kiting" is run/shoot/run/shoot (or cast spell), always staying out of melee range until enemy dead) or BG, though I do it when I must.

[corey_russell]

Alesia_BH wrote...

corey_russell wrote...
There's a little detail you are missing there Grond0 - you need level 3 to cast invisibility which is 5000 experience I think.  

I suspect that Grond0 is aware of the level requirement for casting invisibility from your book.

He's also likely aware of avenues for quick easy experience, the locations of the invisibility potions, the locations of the invisibility scrolls, and a whole host of other bits of minutae which permit safe passage in the early going.

Best,

A.

Yes, but Grond0 plays solo almost always -- if a person plays with a full party (which I do with my mage parties), that's 6 x 5000 = 30,000 experience - you just aren't going to get that quick, not even with the basilisks (though trying at level 1 seems pretty iffy anyways). And if you can't get level 3 in a full party quick for a mage (which you can't), then my statement still stands.

And of course someone could play solo till level 3 then get a party, but BG is supposed to be a role-playing game, you would think you would want all the help you can get as an inexperienced young adult with limited equipment/abilities. But apparently, if you want to game the ambushes (e.g. be invisible) so that you have "no chance" of failing the no-reload, that's a mistake if you are a mage.

And I read your statement about invisibility potions, but as I already told AH, there's only 3 I ever seem to get prior to Cloakwood, that's hardly enough.

Guess would certainly explain why my no-reload mages rarely get anywhere (only one of them even made it to the City of Baldur's Gate -- ironically the one that made it did exactly what we are discussing - he traveled invisible once he got to level 3)

[Alesia_BH]

As Grond0 mentioned, Shoal is just one way of getting early experience. There are many.

A few people here now can reliably get characters through BG1 safely. I've known others in the past who could do so as well. And I'm willing to bet there are hundreds of others whom I've never met.

There isn't anything special about any of us mind you: we've just studied the problem. That's something anyone here can do.

Since the Trilogy No Reloads inception, I've observed a lot of players. Some become very good at no reloading and can do vanilla on cruise control. Others never reach that point.

It's hard to account for all the variation, but the most important thing appears to be attitude. Players who over-estimate their game knowledge and spend time telling others what to do, tend not to progress much. Players who under-estimate their game knowledge and constantly learn from others end up getting very good. Unsurprisingly, the former players tend to get complacent quickly, whereas the latter are always experimenting and pushing themselves further. I have no reason to believe the latter players are smarter or more capable then the former. It's a simple matter of attitude and that's something anyone can change.

Anyhoo. Good luck everyone!

Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 15 décembre 2011 - 08:02 .

[Alesia_BH]

corey_russell wrote...

Yes, but Grond0 plays solo almost always -- if a person plays with a full party (which I do with my mage parties), that's 6 x 5000 = 30,000 experience - you just aren't going to get that quick,

Safely getting 30K experience with a party isn't a problem.  And there are enough invisibility options available to tide you over untill you can cast from your book.

Keeping a PC mage safe in a vanilla party game can be trivial with sufficient game knowledge and attention to detail. There really isn't much to debate here actually. It's an emprical question that has already been answered through past performances.
 

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 15 décembre 2011 - 08:00 .

[corey_russell]

Alesia_BH wrote...

corey_russell wrote...

.... It's an emprical question that has already been answered through past performances.
 

Ironically, this statement actually supports my position. Some of you are basically saying that people can do a no-reload of Vanilla BG 1 with zero chance of failure, due to their knowledge of the game and tactics/strategy (I actually agree with this for some classes). But consider this: VERY FEW no-reloads of PURE (e.g., not multi) mages through BG 1 have been accomplished. Off-hand, I think you did your sorceress, Grond0 did a sorceress, maybe a mage too (not sure he's done so many runs hard to keep 'em straight), and I think USSNorway. But the list of failed no-reload mage runs could fill a wall of honored dead. But on the other hand, there's a huge list of successful fighters (ok massive list), clerics, bards and thieves and multi's that have made it through.

My hypothesis is this: are these failed mage runs, often of people who have no-reloaded other classess successfully, just less skilled with the mage class, OR is the mage class just inherently  more vulnerable to chance?

In other words, are the failed mage runs all due to player error or  are any due to chance. Guess only players who have had those failed runs can tell us the answer, if they remember. The point is if a player played perfectly, but still failed due to chance, then the claim that it can be done with zero chance is then shown to be an exaggeration.

Anyways, I'm not trying to make a big debate of this, but you guys challenged my statement so I'm just supporting my position.

Modifié par corey_russell, 15 décembre 2011 - 08:31 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

corey_russell wrote...
In other words, are the failed mage runs all due to player error or  are any due to chance. Guess only players who have had those failed runs can tell us the answer, if they remember. The point is if a player played perfectly, but still failed due to chance, then the claim that it can be done with zero chance is then shown to be an exaggeration.

Anyways, I'm not trying to make a big debate of this, but you guys challenged my statement so I'm just supporting my position.

Corey, solo mages in vanilla BG1, and I am talking about without BGTutu, or any other mods, have a very likely chance of failure. First problem are the ambushes and invisibility being nerfed in vanilla BG. Invisibility only lasts like a few minutes when it is suppose to last for hours. So whenever a solo mage leaves an area that is more then the distance between Beregost and the area directly below it(which is zero), the invisibility is going to wear off. You can try it yourself, I believe you have vanilla BG installed, the same as I.

So in that regard, luck and probability play a huge role, because whenever a archer ambush occurs, the mage is very likely going to die. The probability is so high, a player like me isn't going to try it anymore. When it comes to luck and probability, most experienced players are able to evaluate the situation because they know what to expect. Like Alesia pointed out, good players will expect and prepare for the worst.

I think that the long term goal shouldn't be about success rate but more if the game was more exciting. Winning can be fun but only if the enemy were challenging, and losing can be heartbreaking if the enemy were invincible(in their situation). That's my opinion.

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 15 décembre 2011 - 08:51 .

[Alesia_BH]

corey_russell wrote...
this statement actually supports my position.

Feel free to look at it that way if you like. I have no interest in confirming or refuting anything you've said or will say. I'm merely clarifying the situation.

And yes: there are some players who can breeze through vanilla with a wide variety of possible party composition- including those involving PC mages. There is nothing wrong with those who do find it difficult: they just have more to learn and there is no tragedy in that. 

 My hypothesis is this: are these failed mage runs, often of people who have no-reloaded other classess successfully, just less skilled with the mage class, OR is the mage class just inherently  more vulnerable to chance?

That's an interesting question- far a field from our original discussion but interesting nonetheless. Unfortunately, the data requirements for resolving it conclusively are non-trivial and I find it hard to see how it would be worth the time investment. I will note though that some do seem to overestimate the power of mages and in particular their capabilities in modded versions of BG2.

Setting that aside, for a given run, risk assessment would entail knowledge of the install, the settings, the party, the player, and the plan. The possibilities range from no chance to virtually bankable. The details matter and the player/plan aspect is a critical part of the equation.

Best,

A.


Btw. To the extent that there is a substantive difference in our views, it's likely due to the data available to us. I've just been around longer and seen more runs/players. 

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 15 décembre 2011 - 09:20 .

[Serg BlackStrider]

corey_russell wrote...
My hypothesis is this: are these failed mage runs, often of people who have no-reloaded other classess successfully, just less skilled with the mage class, OR is the mage class just inherently  more vulnerable to chance?

I agree with Alesia in that matter - it's all depends on player's preference and skills.  Personaly I always prefer mage class in all RPG I've ever played (if there were a choice) and so my Conjurer BG1/ToSC successful no-reload wasn't that difficult. On the other side my *fighter's* skills are far less  prominent as I don't like that class much and not used to close combat which definitely needs different approach in defence/offence. And so my figher PC has far more chances to fall early on than my mage one.

Modifié par Serg BlackStrider, 15 décembre 2011 - 10:46 .

[Alesia_BH]

This subject seems pretty well exhausted at this point. I'm looking forward to seeing some progress reports.

Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 15 décembre 2011 - 11:00 .

[Vaclavc]

corey_russell wrote...
My hypothesis is this: are these failed mage runs, often of people who have no-reloaded other classess successfully, just less skilled with the mage class, OR is the mage class just inherently  more vulnerable to chance?

Very interesting and good question
I agree with Alesia's and Serg's posts.

I am by no means an expert mage player, but I had numerous solo mage runs in distant and recent past. I have successfully no reloaded mage Zalastrius in old Bioware forums on Core difficulty in vanilla, but I have never managed to do it on Insane difficulty.

From my experience, mages are not particularly vulnerable to chance, but when compared to other classes, they are somewhat more vulnerable to player mistakes, complacency, laziness - I lost most of my mage runs from those three reasons.

It is perfectly possible to dramatically decrease mage's vulnerability to ambushes via choosing safe routes between areas, using potions of defense and invisibility, using Shield spell, etc. Mages are beautiful class in their flexibility - their spells make them powerful and they can basically emulate any other class (with few notable exceptions). Moreover, mages can easily win most battles without resorting to cheesy tactics and they are not very stat dependent - from my experience, it is not problem to play low STR low DEX mage.
However - they must not be hit. On insane, a mage should avoid being hit even once.

I daresay that I could currently no reload a mage in BG1 on Core or Insane difficulty if I wouldn't go to the expansion areas - there are some difficult fights in cramped spaces there and deadly traps which must be tramped over - I lost more characters than I can count in Werewolf Island and Durlag's Tower.

Not to mention SCS - while I have experience with it, I am not yet ready to play no reload game with SCS installed.

Sorry for long post
V

Modifié par Vaclavc, 15 décembre 2011 - 11:57 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

Alesia_BH wrote...

This subject seems pretty well exhausted at this point. I'm looking forward to seeing some progress reports.

Best,

A.

Agreed

While I would've liked to have started the bandit camp, I decided to take it a bit slower because while it may seem easy at the moment, I could be easily getting overconfident in the party's ability. Here's what's going on atm. A brief character sheet of one of the palidromes



Now to the summmary



Neira, an assassin in Nashkel is slain by the Palindromes. Magic missiles from Hannah disrupts her spellcasting(I think?), and a command from Eve immobolizes her long enough for the five to take her out. Tenet, being the overtly paranoid one, remains outside.



    The party is ambushed by a half-ogre and a ghast. They emerge victorious and gain a valuable web scroll in the process.

    (Sidenote: The drops themselves seem to be really good at this juncture. Just obtained two potions of mind focusing in the Nashkel Mines).

Despite having -7 AC against piercing, Padap still gets hit by a kobold arrow every now and then. The progress through Nashkel Mines is agonizingly slow due to the fact that the party simply has short health and the only one that can be decent in avoiding being hit is the one wearing the gauntlets of dexterity(Padap).

    The palidromes rest for one last time before meeting with Mulahey. The guard encampment on the second floor is a suitable area.



    Palindromes assault Mulahey
The battle itself was lopsided surprisingly, due to sheer luck really. Though whether or not the quick thinking of Hannah saved the day, who knows how the battle would've turned out without such luck. Hannah had a charm scroll on her, she had been readily collecting scrolls which dropped off enemies in preparation to memorize them. She decided to use this charm spell on Mulahey and it worked! Eve turned undead, and most of the skeleton minions of Mulahey dispersed. A charmed Mulahey in return, used his hold spells upon his kobold minions then tanked for the palindromes against his skeletons, and after all his spells were spent and all his minions dead, he finally broke free of the charm spell, only to face the power of bow slinging palindromes.

    Nimbul
The assassin Nimbul attacked the party abruptly on their way through Nashkel. Eve commanded Nimbul, and Padap swung his magic sword down upon Nimbul. His mirror images couldn't withstand the onslaught and he went down for the count very quickly.

    Hannah uses two purple potions of intelligence as well as one potion of mind focusing to get 22 intelligence. She starts scribing scrolls, however, she fails at learning the blindness spell. However, it is not that bad of a loss, she does have plenty of other spells in her spellbook including the sleep spell.



    The palindromes attempt their luck down the ankheg hole. Well, only a single palindrome went down, and his name is Padap, the guy who has done most of the work. Of course it helps that he is wearing the best equipment. An ankheg gets smart and instead of shooting his spit at Padap, gets into melee range of him. With
an impressive -12 AC against missile, it's unlikely this ankheg would get anywhere with projectiles. While Padap might not be as impressive as an elven archer, he still can get the job done. A working stiff, he is slow and steady, but he's reliable, and Hannah gets a level up so that she may cast strength now. This is helpful because Padap certainly could use strength to carry the boy's body back to his father.

    Battle with Tranzig
The man Tranzig, who was mentioned in one of the notes found off Mulahey, was quite the challenge for the palidromes. He was able to save twice against command and sleep, though perhaps he was already immune to such spells. Whatever the case, the party simply stuffed him full of arrows and gained his ring of protection. In this case, perhaps blindness would have been a factor.

    A Conflict with Sendai
Sendai from Amn has a border dispute with the palindromes. The party launches a planned attack on Sendai, with Hannah casting web, and Eve laying down command on Sendai. The command hits, and the web renders her companions immobile for a few rounds. It's off to the shooting gallery for the palidromes. Once Sendai is down, the party hastily makes use of this advantage and all of them launched arrows and bullets at her. She's down in no time, and now it's the two archers to deal with. Eve gets struck by an arrow and half her health is gone. But she is able to command one of the enemy, and that is when it goes all downhill for Sendai's former associates. The two are downed, as web proves to be much the nuisiance to these poor folk.

    Back at the Carnival, Tenet finds out from one of the merchants that he has been wearing a Laeral's Tear necklace which is amazingly worth quite a bundle! The things this party randomly picks up. Tenet assumes that Padap may have picked it up off a bassilisk or something of the kind.

    A man named Teyngan with his bandit group assailed the party. Hannah cast web and then charm person on Teyngan. The charm spell was a success and Teyngan was webbed and hit by a poison arrow. The mage of the party was able to get a horror spell off and Padap was affected. But this was meaningless, as Teyngan proved to be a valuable replacement. The mage was taken down with his help, as the party shot down the poison archer. Teyngan himself died to the poison.

    Bassilus Area
In the area where the mad cleric Bassilus is known to reside, Ada pre-emptively scouts the area to take note of any potential threats which may errantly join in on the slugfest. She sees a band of hobgoblins and notifies her fellow palindromes that they need to take out this threat for they may actively participate in the Bassilus fight. They are destroyed promptly and the party rests.



The fight with Bassilus himself was similar to Mulahey. Hannah opened up with the usual web, and this time it was Appa who was riding shotgun. Padap stayed back to ready the amulet of missiles just as a plan B. The web worked, and Hannah took the time to charm Bassilus. He saves the first time, but the second time is a charm(pun intended!). With a charmed Bassilus on the side of Palidrome, he wrecks havoc upon his own ranks. After Bassilus wastes his own entangle on his minions, and the palidromes enjoy another shooting gallery. Eventually once he gets back to his regular old evil self, Bassilus is granted an arrow festival.

[corey_russell]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Btw. To the extent that there is a substantive difference in our views, it's likely due to the data available to us. I've just been around longer and seen more runs/players. 

This is likely the case -- I know I've come to the no-reload business a bit late. I've certainly seen very few successful mage runs since I've been watching the no-reloads, but years passed before I joined the game so to speak, so perhaps many players did it before I arrived.

I'll drop the subject. As you've said, the subject matter is for practical reasons, basically unprovable either way due to the amount of data that would be required to do so.

[Alesia_BH]

corey_russell wrote...
This is likely the case -- I know I've come to the no-reload business a bit late. 

Yeah. We're both reasoning in the same way: we are inferring from personal experience and observations of other runs. I'm just familiar with more of the outlier cases.

Best,

A.

Btw. Shadow Leech those custom portraits make me giggle evertime I see them...

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 15 décembre 2011 - 03:11 .

[Grond0]

A lot of discussion on the forums today!  For what it's worth I think that, given perfect play, I could take any type of character (with the exception of a wizard slayer) through BG1 with a chance well above 99%.  That would not include the expansion areas, which I don't know so well and where traps become a potential issue.  Of course my play is far from perfect, but even so most of my deaths are at least partly due to pushing boundaries of some sort even where mistakes contribute to them as well.

A couple of short sessions have resulted in further progress for Certes - still untouched by human (or any other) hand.
- at the carnival Vitiare was blinded and shot. Oopah was charmed and opened a merchant's chest and helped kill Zordral before being disposed of. 
- on the way to Firewine saved a cow.  On arrival, just for a change, made Bentan invisible and let him help take down Meilum.  Bentan then had to be sent to his doom against some kobolds so Certes could take his scroll of magic protection.
- in the valley of the tombs gave the dagger back to the revenant and a combination of two charmed skeletons and a couple of blinds accounted for the ghasts (level 4 fighter).
- at Samuel's area picked up another scroll of magic protection and a ring of fire resistance and then took Samuel to the Friendly Arm.
- tried multiple times to charm Jaheira, but she was immune - I've used different types of charms a lot and am still not sure why charm doesn't work some of the time on some characters.  Reluctantly left her invisibility potion and just killed Tarnesh with the help of a couple of guards.  Also kept one ring and returned another to Joia.
- used a friend's spell to make sure that Zhurlong would take his boots back .  Then had the first moment of slight difficulty with Silke.  Initially charmed 3 of the spiders thinking they might do the trick.  However, they all fell quite quickly so Garrick was brought into the action.  With him and the familiar running interference Silke was blinded at the second attempt.  However, she was still being a pain - running round and then going invisible.  The latter was dealt with by charming a commoner as a target, but it still took a while to hunt Silke down as she was running all over the place (I've used blind quite a bit in this run, but nearly always in enclosed spaces to prevent this annoying behaviour).  Silke's death at least provided the bonus of mage level 4.
- returned Landrin's things - picking up a couple of belts from an ogre on the way.
 
 

[The Fred]

Alesia_BH wrote...
It's hard to account for all the variation, but the most important thing appears to be attitude. Players who over-estimate their game knowledge and spend time telling others what to do, tend not to progress much. Players who under-estimate their game knowledge and constantly learn from others end up getting very good.

I think playstyle comes into it more. Personally, I don't really bother using invisibility all the time and so forth at low levels, because I feel like my character would have to be pretty paranoid to go for that. Yes, he could die in an ambush, but I could accidentally strangle myself in my sleep, yet I never tie my hands to my feet.

I'm also very stubborn, so I still rarely burn consumables, and I choose not to recharge wands as a kind of personal restriction. In terms of learning to no-reload, learning how and when to use magic-blocking potions, invisibility potions, etc, is a big thing, but I haven't bothered with any of that. It doesn't mean I'm not progressing or anything, but I feel as though I'm getting better at the game rather than at what seems like a somewhat contrived way of playing it.

I'm not suggesting that no-reloading in this way doesn't have its virtues, but personally I find it more fun to ignore all those exploitations of minor details of the game and to try and play it the way I feel it was meant to be played. If that means the bad guys sometime get lucky save-or-die spells off on me and I bite the dust, well, I could be run over by a car tomorrow and that's just how it is. When you get hit you get hit and there's nothing you can do about it, so the game may as well reflect this (obviously in the game there are usually things you could have done about it).

With regards to ambushes, I think in TuTu you get four bandits where you used to get six or eight, which means even mages can often flee in time, perhaps with the aid of a potion, though perhaps not at L1.

Alesia_BH wrote...
This subject seems pretty well exhausted at this point. I'm looking forward to seeing some progress reports.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

Unfortunately, though I did get back on briefly the other day, my L8 Avenger Arazamraphel is still stuck in Restenford (in the Secret of Bone Hill) though he did clear the Gnolls from Tri-top so I might get a bit further anon.

[corey_russell]

The Fred wrote...


With regards to ambushes, I think in TuTu you get four bandits where you used to get six or eight, which means even mages can often flee in time, perhaps with the aid of a potion, though perhaps not at L1.

I did not know this, thanks for this info. When I said "ambush" I just assumed everyone knew I was talking about the 10 archer/4 melee ambushes which is what I get in vanilla BG 1 (death to low-level mages...and Garrick)-- if the above is true, no wonder players like Alesia are saying they can do it 100%, ambushes or no.

Modifié par corey_russell, 16 décembre 2011 - 01:10 .

[Alesia_BH]

corey_russell wrote...

I did not know this, thanks for this info. When I said "ambush" I just assumed everyone knew I was talking about the 10 archer/4 melee ambushes which is what I get in vanilla BG 1 (death to low-level mages...and Garrick)-- if the above is true, no wonder players like Alesia are saying they can do it 100%, ambushes or no.

I was referring to both actually. I used to do true-vanilla BG1 no reloads with mages regularly.

The key was careful exposure management via routing and use of non-interruptable item based invisibility early while building the hitpoint total and missle weapon AC item set (Shield Amulet + Girdle of Piercing + Cloak of Displacement + Boots of Avoidance + (occasionally) Claw of the Kazgaroth). I'd often sell the Ring of Wizardry in the interest of financing other items (The level 1 spell slots don't really matter that much if you are using wands, and the opportunity cost of wearing the thing is non-trivial since there are some great defensive rings in BG). Once you have Mirror Image, some hitpoints, and an unreasonable missle weapon AC, archers are no longer meaningful threats.

With a party, you can also setup your formation so that the PC mage won't be targetted IIRC. 

V may want to comment on the approach he currently uses in true-vanilla.

You definitely have to adapt to your install of course. In my current one, for example. Tarnesh is far more formidible so acquiring Jaheira's PoI early can be awkward. SCS also makes the Kolbold and Giant Spider spawns a lot nastier. The Giant Spiders,  in particular, instacast Web which presents another budgetting issue.

I haven't encountered anything that wasn't manageable in my installs.

Best,

A.

Edit: Patience may be an important variable here. I used to kill all the non-ranged foes on the early maps with Darts for early level up. There is a goodly amount of experience available that way actually though it takes a long time. The details are fuzzy here since it has been a while, but I've gotten to Level 2 on the Coastway, then Level 3 in Beregost. With Scrolls and the Wand of Sleep from High Hedge in hand (financed by ring sales), passage south to the Carnival was safe. Then it was north to the Basilisks with the Necklace of Missles, Shield Amulet, and Pro Pet scroll with Level 5 coming soon after. Smooth sailing from there on out.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 16 décembre 2011 - 03:27 .

[corey_russell]

I see how it can be done the way you are describing -- you have to kite, definitely not my preference. Is there a chart somewhere that says what ambush occurs at what route?

[Alesia_BH]

corey_russell wrote...
 Is there a chart somewhere that says what ambush occurs at what route?

I recall figuring that out through experimentation for the early spawns (the later ones were unimportant). Sadly, I don't remember the results exactly (this was ~7 years ago).

IIRC in true vanilla I settled on taking the High Hedge route to Beregost and getting scrolls, Level 3 and my first PoI there before heading north to the Friendly Arm. I'd set up a true-vanilla install and run the tests again, but that would fall squarely into the royal pita category on a Macbook Air sans Windows partition and CD Drive. 

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 16 décembre 2011 - 04:21 .

[corey_russell]

Alesia_BH wrote...

corey_russell wrote...
 Is there a chart somewhere that says what ambush occurs at what route?

I recall figuring that out through experimentation for the early spawns (the later ones were unimportant). Sadly, I don't remember the results exactly (this was ~7 years ago).

IIRC in true vanilla I settled on taking the High Hedge route to Beregost and getting scrolls, Level 3 and my first PoI there before heading north to the Friendly Arm. I'd set up a true-vanilla install and run the tests again, but that would fall squarely into the royal pita category on a Macbook Air sans Windows partition and CD Drive. 

Please, don't go through the trouble. I just wondered if this was already done, not asking for someone to actually find out from scratch. I remember some of them, and for a lot of people taking high hedge route to avoid ranged ambush attackers seems to be key, I will probably do that myself from now on.

[Grimwald the Wise]

I personally would rather not know when to expect an ambush. it seems a lot more realistic. True you fail a lot more times, but in my opinion, winning is not everything. I play for fun, and an unexpected ambush adds to the fun.

PS

Rajkumari died in the Cloakwood Mines. She had defeated Drasus and co, and when facing the mage downstairs she used the Greenstone Amulet. It didn't protect against chaos and when that wore off, she was held and disabled with other spells as well. I am wondering if the fact that she is a Cavalier is the problem as the icon doesn't change when I use the amulet. Spider's Bane protects against hold,  but I was supposed to be protected against far more spells than was actually the case.

I am trying again, but this time I will take a party into the mines if I survive that long. I should do, as I now have the hang of playing paladins. Having Gavin, Xan and Coran in the party should make all the difference, and having both Xan and gavin vying over my affections could be interesting.

Modifié par Grimwald the Wise, 16 décembre 2011 - 05:57 .