Do I think I will make it that far - NO. Does hope spring eternal despite the weight of evidence against it - well, maybecorey_russell wrote...
Looking good, Grond0 -- you never told me if you thought you would make it to Melissan or not. : )
.
Baldur's Gate 1 No-Reload Challenge
Débuté par
G_Admiral_Thrawn
, juil. 14 2010 09:17
#5151
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 12:02
Grond0
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Retour en haut
#5152
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 01:25
Enuhal
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Drusilla&Friends:
One thing to note: Wand of Heavens got removed by hard times. Even if that wouldn't be the case, I wouldn't have the money to buy one. Otherwise this would be a powerful weapon. Also, wand charges are greatly reduced - for example, I just found a wand of fire - with one charge.
Cloakwood, Area 2:
As soon as the party entered the area, they were ambushed by phase spiders. After they were defeated, the clerics summoned skeletons and the group started exploring, being very careful with web traps. Some ettercaps and more spiders were shot before entering Centeols lair.
I knew this battle was going to be tough, but I still underestimated it. The main problem being the giant spiders who webbed two of my characters. Junius and Ulrich were killed, while a Horror spell gave the party some spaces to lure the spiders into the waiting skeleton army.
However, a few seconds later something terrible happened: I stumbled into a web trap I somehow hadn't triggered, even though the party walked over this area extensively. This ultimately spelled the doom of almost everyone. Padma was captured by a sword spider as well. Drusilla had to drink the last remaining invisibility potion. She took what she could (which isn't a whole lot - all the strength potions were permanently lost when Kahrk killed most of the party) - losing all magical melee weapons, large shield +1, full plate etc. - and ran away.
At this point, it was obvious to me that the challenge was bound to fail relatively soon: Most of the good equipment lost, more importantly no gold (everything I had left had to be used for resurrection) and no other way to improve equipment and experience (okay, besides meaningless grinding which I don't do).
Still, I never give up a no-reload before the pc actually dies, even though I expected every battle to be my last. Returning to cloakwood, the group killed the last two remaining sword spiders with skeletons and took the body & Spider's Bane. At the next area, I decided not to fight the shadow druids when I saw that SCS added some more of them, so I ended up only killing Peter of the North. Ulrich was slain during an ambush, but I had no gold for resurrection and travelling back and forth would've caused another ambush - ambushes with giant spiders are deadly for my party. The Hamadryad was defeated by skeletons.
Drasus: I opened up with skeletons and stinking cloud, which was quite effective. Drasus himself was lured away from his group, doomed, magic missled and killed, while the other fighter shared the same fate. The mages were a lot tougher. I tried to have them waste their spells on Skeletons (and they used a lot of chaos spells on Junius), one of them eventually died, the other one defeated the last skeleton and attacked the party, but he was commanded.
Returned back to ressurect Ulrich before entering the mine. Having a tank with 27 ap and ac 2 here is... really bad.
The first level still wasn't a problem. At the second level, Hareishan teleported into the starting area and confused everyone. However, the spell wore off before anyone got killed, luckily. The mage used dimension door again and disappeared. The group went south to take the long road, but some guards managed to shoot Padma when I tried to rest. The party started casting hold spells, Hareishan reappeared but got doomed and held.
With the stuff from her body the party attempted to resurrect Padma, but on the way another ambush killed two more party members. This forced me to actually farm money - I had to take a break to kill a winter wolf at cloudpeak mountains to afford resurrecting everyone. However, when returning to cloakwood Ulrich was killed during another giant spider ambush... How I've grown to hate these! Well, returning was not an option (more ambushes and no money for resurrection), so I continued on without him.
level 3 was entered, and after the death of the initial guards, I decided not to fight any other mages and went straight to level 4.
Killed some guards and managed to rest, buffed with prot from evil 3m, my last potions (invulnerability and heroism and one to protect from spells) and attacked with skeletons leading the way after triggering all of those traps with Junius. The two battle horrors were summoned, and besides magic missle I had no way to hurt them at all (with no competent melee fighter in this party).
Eventually, while Jehoash got hit by a web+stinking cloud spell trigger, preventing the others from fleeing the area, the battle horrors + the wizard cornered the group, the battle horrors killed Junius, Davaeorn threw a fireball - and another one, finally killing Drusilla and ending this game for good.
_______________________________________
All in all, I still think reaching Davaeorn with a random party, SCSI, Hard Times and Item Randomizer could be considered a success, considering I've only played with any of these mods once before, and that was only a quarter of the game. Without Hard Times, beating him might've been possible, but I really don't think I had any way to be successful in my current situation, at least not without some really cheesy tactics.
I'll propably take a break from no-reloading for a while, good luck to all of you!
One thing to note: Wand of Heavens got removed by hard times. Even if that wouldn't be the case, I wouldn't have the money to buy one. Otherwise this would be a powerful weapon. Also, wand charges are greatly reduced - for example, I just found a wand of fire - with one charge.
Cloakwood, Area 2:
As soon as the party entered the area, they were ambushed by phase spiders. After they were defeated, the clerics summoned skeletons and the group started exploring, being very careful with web traps. Some ettercaps and more spiders were shot before entering Centeols lair.
I knew this battle was going to be tough, but I still underestimated it. The main problem being the giant spiders who webbed two of my characters. Junius and Ulrich were killed, while a Horror spell gave the party some spaces to lure the spiders into the waiting skeleton army.
However, a few seconds later something terrible happened: I stumbled into a web trap I somehow hadn't triggered, even though the party walked over this area extensively. This ultimately spelled the doom of almost everyone. Padma was captured by a sword spider as well. Drusilla had to drink the last remaining invisibility potion. She took what she could (which isn't a whole lot - all the strength potions were permanently lost when Kahrk killed most of the party) - losing all magical melee weapons, large shield +1, full plate etc. - and ran away.
At this point, it was obvious to me that the challenge was bound to fail relatively soon: Most of the good equipment lost, more importantly no gold (everything I had left had to be used for resurrection) and no other way to improve equipment and experience (okay, besides meaningless grinding which I don't do).
Still, I never give up a no-reload before the pc actually dies, even though I expected every battle to be my last. Returning to cloakwood, the group killed the last two remaining sword spiders with skeletons and took the body & Spider's Bane. At the next area, I decided not to fight the shadow druids when I saw that SCS added some more of them, so I ended up only killing Peter of the North. Ulrich was slain during an ambush, but I had no gold for resurrection and travelling back and forth would've caused another ambush - ambushes with giant spiders are deadly for my party. The Hamadryad was defeated by skeletons.
Drasus: I opened up with skeletons and stinking cloud, which was quite effective. Drasus himself was lured away from his group, doomed, magic missled and killed, while the other fighter shared the same fate. The mages were a lot tougher. I tried to have them waste their spells on Skeletons (and they used a lot of chaos spells on Junius), one of them eventually died, the other one defeated the last skeleton and attacked the party, but he was commanded.
Returned back to ressurect Ulrich before entering the mine. Having a tank with 27 ap and ac 2 here is... really bad.
The first level still wasn't a problem. At the second level, Hareishan teleported into the starting area and confused everyone. However, the spell wore off before anyone got killed, luckily. The mage used dimension door again and disappeared. The group went south to take the long road, but some guards managed to shoot Padma when I tried to rest. The party started casting hold spells, Hareishan reappeared but got doomed and held.
With the stuff from her body the party attempted to resurrect Padma, but on the way another ambush killed two more party members. This forced me to actually farm money - I had to take a break to kill a winter wolf at cloudpeak mountains to afford resurrecting everyone. However, when returning to cloakwood Ulrich was killed during another giant spider ambush... How I've grown to hate these! Well, returning was not an option (more ambushes and no money for resurrection), so I continued on without him.
level 3 was entered, and after the death of the initial guards, I decided not to fight any other mages and went straight to level 4.
Killed some guards and managed to rest, buffed with prot from evil 3m, my last potions (invulnerability and heroism and one to protect from spells) and attacked with skeletons leading the way after triggering all of those traps with Junius. The two battle horrors were summoned, and besides magic missle I had no way to hurt them at all (with no competent melee fighter in this party).
Eventually, while Jehoash got hit by a web+stinking cloud spell trigger, preventing the others from fleeing the area, the battle horrors + the wizard cornered the group, the battle horrors killed Junius, Davaeorn threw a fireball - and another one, finally killing Drusilla and ending this game for good.
_______________________________________
All in all, I still think reaching Davaeorn with a random party, SCSI, Hard Times and Item Randomizer could be considered a success, considering I've only played with any of these mods once before, and that was only a quarter of the game. Without Hard Times, beating him might've been possible, but I really don't think I had any way to be successful in my current situation, at least not without some really cheesy tactics.
I'll propably take a break from no-reloading for a while, good luck to all of you!
Modifié par Enuhal, 08 mars 2012 - 01:30 .
#5153
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 04:26
corey_russell
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Rough going there, Enuhal, but I agree you did pretty good to get as far as you did. I couldn't even get to cloakwood with my random parties, and I didn't have hard times or SCS.
#5154
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 05:27
Grond0
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Hard luck Enuhal, but well done for making it that far!Enuhal wrote...
One thing to note: Wand of Heavens got removed by hard times. Even if that wouldn't be the case, I wouldn't have the money to buy one. Otherwise this would be a powerful weapon. Also, wand charges are greatly reduced - for example, I just found a wand of fire - with one charge.
All in all, I still think reaching Davaeorn with a random party, SCSI, Hard Times and Item Randomizer could be considered a success, considering I've only played with any of these mods once before, and that was only a quarter of the game. Without Hard Times, beating him might've been possible, but I really don't think I had any way to be successful in my current situation, at least not without some really cheesy tactics.
I'm not afraid of a challenge, but my impression of Hard Times was that it led to a boring game because it unreasonably constrains what you can do - for instance you noted that the charges on wands are so low that their use is effectively ruled out as a strategy. It therefore didn't last long on my installation.
#5155
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 08:21
Shadow_Leech07
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Sorry for your loss Enahul. You seem to have quite the patience.
#5156
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 09:42
Grond0
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Update for Fizz, wizardslayer dualled to thief.
He's now reached his XP cap and has just arrived in Baldur's Gate. Progress to there:
- used green scroll of protection from petrification and then took on the basilisks. Fizz dealt with them by himself - this was the best backstab to date. Korax was recruited to deal with Mutamin and then do the same for the party to the south - here he has successfully held all 4 of them at once allowing Fizz to join in the kill. Fizz thanked Korax for his sterling work and gave him his reward.
- at Firewine Bridge Meilum got shot up, but left Kahrk alone. Failed to pickpocket scroll from Bentan (tried 3 times before he turned hostile) and had to quickly run away before he could get a spell off.
- at Ulcaster it was difficult to work through all the kobolds and skeletons while trying to find space to hide and backstab Icharyd, but managed it eventually. A few of the dungeon inhabitants got him up to level 8 and recovery of his old skills. I was tempted to try the wolf, but discretion won the day.
- bought Horn of Kazgoroth (though not used it yet) and some green scrolls at High Hedge. Also full plate mail from Beregost in preparation for the bandit camp.
- got a lift to the camp from Teven and then sneaked into the tent and sliced up Venkt. I was confident that with AC -5 and boots of avoidance Fizz would be able to take out the rest and so it proved - took just a couple of hits in the process.
- in the Cloakwood the first real challenge of the game was getting hold of Spiders Bane to survive the spider ambushes. As a basic wizard slayer this is pretty difficult, but I was hoping that thief abilities would make it much easier and this proved to be so. First off he cleared the traps and, in particular, all the phase spiders (to avoid them teleporting in at a nasty moment). Also used a protection from poison spell, which would give him a chance of escaping even if webbed so long as only 1 or 2 attackers are present. After drawing the spiders out of the mound Fizz used stealth shots from range to whittle down the ranks and then backstabbed the giant spiders once alone. This worked well and Fizz was never actually exposed to a web attack at all.
- my cap reinstator doesn't take account of experience earned in the first class of dualled characters, so Fizz is now shown as having the chance to level up, but actually hit his cap here. He will not level up for the remainder of the game and will then adjust XP if he makes it to BG2.
- Spiders Bane immediately showed its worth as Fizz laughed at the ambushing spiders and he had no further problems getting through to the mine. Stealth shots were used to try and draw Drasus away, but Genthore followed most closely. A nice backstab set him up for a quick finish. Drasus was next and Fizz was only hit once in taking him out, so a pretty successful encounter. The mages were left alone and Fizz proceeded into the mine and stealthed through without any problems. Daveorn was drawn next to the doorway and subjected to backstabs - the first of which, after going through his stoneskins, proved fatal. All Fizz' skill points have gone into traps and stealth so he had to leave a lot of Daveorn's treasure behind, though that's no real loss since he's got more money than he can sensibly use anyway.
He's now reached his XP cap and has just arrived in Baldur's Gate. Progress to there:
- used green scroll of protection from petrification and then took on the basilisks. Fizz dealt with them by himself - this was the best backstab to date. Korax was recruited to deal with Mutamin and then do the same for the party to the south - here he has successfully held all 4 of them at once allowing Fizz to join in the kill. Fizz thanked Korax for his sterling work and gave him his reward.
- at Firewine Bridge Meilum got shot up, but left Kahrk alone. Failed to pickpocket scroll from Bentan (tried 3 times before he turned hostile) and had to quickly run away before he could get a spell off.
- at Ulcaster it was difficult to work through all the kobolds and skeletons while trying to find space to hide and backstab Icharyd, but managed it eventually. A few of the dungeon inhabitants got him up to level 8 and recovery of his old skills. I was tempted to try the wolf, but discretion won the day.
- bought Horn of Kazgoroth (though not used it yet) and some green scrolls at High Hedge. Also full plate mail from Beregost in preparation for the bandit camp.
- got a lift to the camp from Teven and then sneaked into the tent and sliced up Venkt. I was confident that with AC -5 and boots of avoidance Fizz would be able to take out the rest and so it proved - took just a couple of hits in the process.
- in the Cloakwood the first real challenge of the game was getting hold of Spiders Bane to survive the spider ambushes. As a basic wizard slayer this is pretty difficult, but I was hoping that thief abilities would make it much easier and this proved to be so. First off he cleared the traps and, in particular, all the phase spiders (to avoid them teleporting in at a nasty moment). Also used a protection from poison spell, which would give him a chance of escaping even if webbed so long as only 1 or 2 attackers are present. After drawing the spiders out of the mound Fizz used stealth shots from range to whittle down the ranks and then backstabbed the giant spiders once alone. This worked well and Fizz was never actually exposed to a web attack at all.
- my cap reinstator doesn't take account of experience earned in the first class of dualled characters, so Fizz is now shown as having the chance to level up, but actually hit his cap here. He will not level up for the remainder of the game and will then adjust XP if he makes it to BG2.
- Spiders Bane immediately showed its worth as Fizz laughed at the ambushing spiders and he had no further problems getting through to the mine. Stealth shots were used to try and draw Drasus away, but Genthore followed most closely. A nice backstab set him up for a quick finish. Drasus was next and Fizz was only hit once in taking him out, so a pretty successful encounter. The mages were left alone and Fizz proceeded into the mine and stealthed through without any problems. Daveorn was drawn next to the doorway and subjected to backstabs - the first of which, after going through his stoneskins, proved fatal. All Fizz' skill points have gone into traps and stealth so he had to leave a lot of Daveorn's treasure behind, though that's no real loss since he's got more money than he can sensibly use anyway.
#5157
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 11:11
Grimwald the Wise
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Bluestaff the Air Genasi Berserker dualled to cleric at level 7.
Everything started well. Stats excellent everything maxed except Charisma which was the minimum.
Drizzt joined us as I am wanting to do a quick game this time. I usually like to take my time and leave him to the end.
Before going to the bandit camp, took on board Kivan and Xan. Kivan was down to 1 HP but somehow we all survived. Web helped a lot, but we used a lot of potions nevertheless.
We then dropped them and included Jaheira and Khalid in the party.
There is a bug in my game that means that I cannot complete Jaheira's quest. By installing SCS, some the settings that I wanted to keep have changed.
Took Dynaheir and Coran to replace Jaheira and Khalid and finished the mines.
Everything started well. Stats excellent everything maxed except Charisma which was the minimum.
Drizzt joined us as I am wanting to do a quick game this time. I usually like to take my time and leave him to the end.
Before going to the bandit camp, took on board Kivan and Xan. Kivan was down to 1 HP but somehow we all survived. Web helped a lot, but we used a lot of potions nevertheless.
We then dropped them and included Jaheira and Khalid in the party.
There is a bug in my game that means that I cannot complete Jaheira's quest. By installing SCS, some the settings that I wanted to keep have changed.
Took Dynaheir and Coran to replace Jaheira and Khalid and finished the mines.
#5158
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 11:21
Grimwald the Wise
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Bluestaff the Air Genasi Berserker dualled to cleric at level 7.
Everything started well. Stats excellent everything maxed except Charisma which was the minimum.
Drizzt joined us as I am wanting to do a quick game this time. I usually like to take my time and leave him to the end.
Before going to the bandit camp, took on board Kivan and Xan. Kivan was down to 1 HP but somehow we all survived.
Web helped a lot, but we used a lot of potions nevertheless.
We then dropped them and included Jaheira and Khalid in the party.
There is a bug in my game that means that I cannot complete Jaheira's quest.
By installing SCS, some the settings that I wanted to keep have changed. Level 1 NPCs is the one that seems to have been affected most. oining NPCs don't match my experience. As far as Drizzt is concerned, that is a bonus, but not as far as the other NPCs are concerned.
Took Dynaheir and Coran to replace Jaheira and Khalid and finished the mines.
Sorry about lack of detail. When/if I get to Amn, I will give more detail. Have to go up one level to get ***** in staves back.
Should then be quite a tank. Am quite powerul without that, but having enrage ability will make things a lot safer.
The only real problem in the mines was the mage near the bottom. Lightning bolt hit Bluestaff a number of times before he got out of the way. It also killed the mage. No experience. Got through a lot of healing potions because of that.
Everything started well. Stats excellent everything maxed except Charisma which was the minimum.
Drizzt joined us as I am wanting to do a quick game this time. I usually like to take my time and leave him to the end.
Before going to the bandit camp, took on board Kivan and Xan. Kivan was down to 1 HP but somehow we all survived.
Web helped a lot, but we used a lot of potions nevertheless. We then dropped them and included Jaheira and Khalid in the party.
There is a bug in my game that means that I cannot complete Jaheira's quest.
By installing SCS, some the settings that I wanted to keep have changed. Level 1 NPCs is the one that seems to have been affected most. oining NPCs don't match my experience. As far as Drizzt is concerned, that is a bonus, but not as far as the other NPCs are concerned.Took Dynaheir and Coran to replace Jaheira and Khalid and finished the mines.
Sorry about lack of detail. When/if I get to Amn, I will give more detail. Have to go up one level to get ***** in staves back.
Should then be quite a tank. Am quite powerul without that, but having enrage ability will make things a lot safer.
The only real problem in the mines was the mage near the bottom. Lightning bolt hit Bluestaff a number of times before he got out of the way. It also killed the mage.
No experience. Got through a lot of healing potions because of that.
#5159
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 12:18
corey_russell
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Core the level 3 berserker dualed to level 9 mage adventure continues...
Core and gang (Kagain, Viconia, Imoen, Coran) have finished all their City of Baldur's Gate quests they are going to do, except for the Iron Throne. The actual battles/quests went pretty straightforward, Acid arrows/bullets +2 carried the day. The Mountain Mauler battle went smoothly thanks to some skeletons, snares, emotion and silence.
Near the end, we wanted Coran to pick-pocket the cloak of balduran. We got his pickpocket up to 200% then he gave it a shot -- he failed. This set many citizens hostile in the UnderCellar. This is lousy news, as we have to come back here later. So then Coran charmed Quenash and tried again - failed again. He charmed her once more and finally got the cloak. We got out of there.
While he still had 200% pick-pocket he also tried to get the book of wisdom in the temple of Tymora - he failed here also. He tried to charm/pickpocket once more but failed again. He got hit with a flamestrike, nearly killing him. He fled, but the lady followed and we had to kill her. This dropped our rep -8. Got some nice experience though 4700...Coran stealthed and charmed the guy in the Temple and finally got the book of wisdom and then Coran fled.
The necromancer in the Sorcerous Sundries area, there at least Coran didn't flub it...Oh forgot to mention, when we got our free action ring from Dushai, Coran's pick-pocket was 160% so he tried to pickpocket the guy who gives you a tour of Durlag's - he FAILED there also. This set Dushai hostile, the party fled for their lives.
So in case any one is keeping count, there are now FOUR areas we have hostile citizens (Feldeposte's Inn, Ulgoth's Beard, Undercellar, and Temple of Tymora). Am glad we are getting near the of the game...
Core and gang (Kagain, Viconia, Imoen, Coran) have finished all their City of Baldur's Gate quests they are going to do, except for the Iron Throne. The actual battles/quests went pretty straightforward, Acid arrows/bullets +2 carried the day. The Mountain Mauler battle went smoothly thanks to some skeletons, snares, emotion and silence.
Near the end, we wanted Coran to pick-pocket the cloak of balduran. We got his pickpocket up to 200% then he gave it a shot -- he failed. This set many citizens hostile in the UnderCellar. This is lousy news, as we have to come back here later. So then Coran charmed Quenash and tried again - failed again. He charmed her once more and finally got the cloak. We got out of there.
While he still had 200% pick-pocket he also tried to get the book of wisdom in the temple of Tymora - he failed here also. He tried to charm/pickpocket once more but failed again. He got hit with a flamestrike, nearly killing him. He fled, but the lady followed and we had to kill her. This dropped our rep -8. Got some nice experience though 4700...Coran stealthed and charmed the guy in the Temple and finally got the book of wisdom and then Coran fled.
The necromancer in the Sorcerous Sundries area, there at least Coran didn't flub it...Oh forgot to mention, when we got our free action ring from Dushai, Coran's pick-pocket was 160% so he tried to pickpocket the guy who gives you a tour of Durlag's - he FAILED there also. This set Dushai hostile, the party fled for their lives.
So in case any one is keeping count, there are now FOUR areas we have hostile citizens (Feldeposte's Inn, Ulgoth's Beard, Undercellar, and Temple of Tymora). Am glad we are getting near the of the game...
#5160
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 03:18
Charlestonian Knight Templar
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We found Dynahier at the bottom of a pit at the Gnoll Stronghold. The pit was used by the Gnolls for holding captives, disposing of carcasses and trash and served as the strongholdsgarderobe for EVERYONE! It was a most unpleasant experience!
Xvart Village, Bear River, Gnoll Stronghold (Chapter 2
)As soon as we got to Nashkel another assassin attacked us in the Nashkel Inn. We killed her quickly but when will this end? We ended up adding Fighter/Berserker to the group while there & changed course to help him find his ‘witch’ who was help captive in a Gnoll Stronghold in the SW. Initially this took us to a mountainous area where we stumbled onto a Xvart Village. We wiped out 25 or so including two Cave Bears before we left. I almost felt bad about this when one of them accused us of killing them unprovoked. We killed a Dire Wolf or two also here. We had to return to Nashkel to unload all the short swords and loot before continuing.
From there we went to Bear River. First we ran into a prig who was terrified of a Mountain Bear. We promised to help him and did so by killing the bear. Later, we ran across a barbecuing Ogre who was more interested in eating than fighting. We disrupted his dinner permanently. Then we ran into a Paladin named Laurel and assisted her in swatting a few Gibberlings. Finally we had a challenging battle on a bridge w/two more Ogres and three Chill Orecai before stumbling into our key event.
Key Event: While @ Bear River we were ambushed by Chill Orecai and their leader, Neville, who was a tough fighter type. This was a tough fight b/c we were surrounded and the Chill Orecai had poisoned tipped arrows. More than one Antidote and Potion of Healing was used. I focused on fighting the leader and he hurt me more than once while the Orecai fired away. We finally started taking them out one @ a time & I finally finished my work on Neville & then we closed out the Orecai. This could have gone badly.
We finally made it to the Gnoll Stronghold and took steel to a couple of Ogrillon’s who were guarding the bridge. The Gnolls were not difficult at all and we tore thru them and their pet Xvarts easily. We found Dynaheir at the bottom of a garderobe/pit in the stronghold floor & returned w/her to Nashkel.
Treasure Acquired: (Legend: Alexander (Al), Imoen (Im), Khalid (Kh), etc.; General Party Use (GP); Spellbook (Sb); Sold (S); LSwd +1 (Al); Br of Def AC8 (Kh); Potions: St Gt Stgth (Al), Cold Resistance (GP), Scrolls: Invsblty (Kh), Flm Arw (Kh), Prot from Evil (Kh), Prot from Petrify (Dy), Identify (Dy); Boots of the North (Al); Bandit Scalps x1; Misc Armor, Gems, Potions, Potions, (S); > 167gp
Leader Notes: I had to make a really tough call. I’d grown close to Kivan but something told me it was nearing time for us to part. I knew Minsc was supposed to go w/me from the moment I met him. I also knew that if/when we found & rescued his ‘witch’ it would be time to say goodbye to Kivan.
Current Disposition: Resting & Recuperating at the Nashkel Inn
Next Steps: Nashkel Mines
Game Notes/Questions: None
Promotions: Khalid advanced one Lvl in Mage & Thf. He added Blindness to his memorized spells & improved his P/Locks, F/R Traps, Hide/Shadow & Move Silently skills. Jaheira rose to 4th Lvl Dr & added Shillelagh & Slow Poison to her Druid Spells; Minsc & Dynaheir joined @ 3rd Lvl. Minsc has since been promoted to 4th Lvl Fighter/Berserker. I too was promoted to 4th Lvl Paladin/Undead Hunter.
Current Party: (Reputation: 18 - Heroic)
Alexander:4th Lvl Pal (UH);(18/77,18,18,10,15,19*);SpMail/LSwd +1/Fl; (Prfs:LSwd*,Flail*,SSS**)
Imoen: 4th Lvl Th (SwBklr); Lthr/SBow/Dgr +1 (Prfs: Dgr, SBow, SSwd)
Khalid: 2nd/2nd/3rd Lvl Ftr/Mage/Th; BrDefAC8/LBow/BSwd; (Prfs: LBow, BSwd, TWS**)
Jaheira: 4th Lvl Drd; Std Lthr/Slg/Club; (Prfs: Slg, Club)
Minsc: 4th Lvl Ftr/Bsrkr; PlMail/THSsd; (Prfs: 2HS, 2HWS)
Dynahier: 3rd Lvl Mage/Evkr; Sl; (Prfs: Sl)
*Tome of Ldrshp/Inflc
Reloads: 0
Mods Used: E. Tutu/TOB; Hard Times, BG1 UB; NPC 1 Pr; Randmzr, BGII Twk Pack, SCS, Level 1 NPCs
Modifié par Charlestonian Knight Templar, 08 mars 2012 - 03:30 .
#5161
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 04:09
Grond0
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Update for Fizz, wizardslayer 7 dualled to thief 8.
Fizz has arrived in the Undercity temple for his final confrontation with Sarevok, which he really shouldn't have any trouble with.
Progress to this point as follows:
- Ramazith tried to get him to do something nasty, but it backfired on him with a single exploding arrow.
- Picked up the Helm of Balduran.
- Saved Tremain's son as a by-product of a quick confrontation with a priestess (so quick none of the others even turned hostile).
- Marek lasted only a fraction longer; he just survived a backstab, but the drain life finished him off before his buffs fired.
- Picked up dexterity tome
- Got in a muddle at the Iron Throne and was lucky to survive. Normally here I just use the stairs to isolate enemies and finish them off, but with an abundance of exploding arrows in stock I thought Fizz should use a few of those. The consequence was a poorly managed fight - at least initially - with Fizz being hit by two lightning bolts and a magic missile (not a problem in themselves, but if they had been, say, confusion or emotions it could have been fatal). To be fair I was put off a bit by not one, but two duplicates of Alai spawning. I hadn't realised that at first, but after dealing with twin Alai's fighting together I went back upstairs to find another!
- avoided conflict at Candlekeep and went down to the catacombs. Normally with a wizard slayer I accept here that he won't get the strength tome, but this time I bent my principles and made use of the transformation elixir obtained from the slime quest. However, this needed to be topped up with Bhaal divine might and I realised I had not rested to get this after using a scroll of magic protection - so had to count that one as wasted and start again in the morning.
- on the way back to the city stopped off at Firewine Bridge to get an extra scroll of magic protection from Bentan. Also picked up the 3rd wisdom tome from Durlag's Tower.
- Argh and Ungh and Cythandria were all taken out by stealth attacks using his speed advantage.
- Quenash was killed for her cloak in case that becomes of use later in BG2 - the killing also served the double purpose of getting reputation below 10 so Fizz rested to get divine wrath as his final Bhaal power.
- I thought Slythe would have little chance if the initial backstab hit, which it did. Slythe had the time for one action, but chose to take a potion of freedom rather than invisibility and was finished off shortly after that.
- At the palace Fizz used a couple of arrows of dispelling at the start of the fight to make things easier for the Flaming Fist. Two of the dopplegangers were taken upstairs and treated to backstabs. The rest didn't seem inclined to follow when Fizz returned so he joined in the attack on them. Liia fell just before the last doppleganger, but Belt survived.
- Still using the same scroll of magic protection that was started for the fight with Slythe & Krystin Fizz got through the maze without worrying about finding traps. He stealthed past the party to get to the temple.
Fizz has arrived in the Undercity temple for his final confrontation with Sarevok, which he really shouldn't have any trouble with.
Progress to this point as follows:
- Ramazith tried to get him to do something nasty, but it backfired on him with a single exploding arrow.
- Picked up the Helm of Balduran.
- Saved Tremain's son as a by-product of a quick confrontation with a priestess (so quick none of the others even turned hostile).
- Marek lasted only a fraction longer; he just survived a backstab, but the drain life finished him off before his buffs fired.
- Picked up dexterity tome
- Got in a muddle at the Iron Throne and was lucky to survive. Normally here I just use the stairs to isolate enemies and finish them off, but with an abundance of exploding arrows in stock I thought Fizz should use a few of those. The consequence was a poorly managed fight - at least initially - with Fizz being hit by two lightning bolts and a magic missile (not a problem in themselves, but if they had been, say, confusion or emotions it could have been fatal). To be fair I was put off a bit by not one, but two duplicates of Alai spawning. I hadn't realised that at first, but after dealing with twin Alai's fighting together I went back upstairs to find another!
- avoided conflict at Candlekeep and went down to the catacombs. Normally with a wizard slayer I accept here that he won't get the strength tome, but this time I bent my principles and made use of the transformation elixir obtained from the slime quest. However, this needed to be topped up with Bhaal divine might and I realised I had not rested to get this after using a scroll of magic protection - so had to count that one as wasted and start again in the morning.
- on the way back to the city stopped off at Firewine Bridge to get an extra scroll of magic protection from Bentan. Also picked up the 3rd wisdom tome from Durlag's Tower.
- Argh and Ungh and Cythandria were all taken out by stealth attacks using his speed advantage.
- Quenash was killed for her cloak in case that becomes of use later in BG2 - the killing also served the double purpose of getting reputation below 10 so Fizz rested to get divine wrath as his final Bhaal power.
- I thought Slythe would have little chance if the initial backstab hit, which it did. Slythe had the time for one action, but chose to take a potion of freedom rather than invisibility and was finished off shortly after that.
- At the palace Fizz used a couple of arrows of dispelling at the start of the fight to make things easier for the Flaming Fist. Two of the dopplegangers were taken upstairs and treated to backstabs. The rest didn't seem inclined to follow when Fizz returned so he joined in the attack on them. Liia fell just before the last doppleganger, but Belt survived.
- Still using the same scroll of magic protection that was started for the fight with Slythe & Krystin Fizz got through the maze without worrying about finding traps. He stealthed past the party to get to the temple.
#5162
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 04:52
Grond0
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Final update for Fizz, wizardslayer 7 dualled to thief 8.
As I've had trouble with the SCS final battle component I've no longer got that installed so I knew that all the opponents would be coming after Fizz - not to worry as he's got his speedy boots on. In addition Sarevok found himself slowing down fairly soon after the start of the fight.
There then came a lengthy passage with Fizz running round; the others were all chasing him, but only Sarevok was visible (apart from a few battle horrors who joined in the fun). Every now and then Fizz would let fly with an exploding arrow - that actually does less damage to Sarevok than other available missiles, but I was interested to see what effect they had on his colleagues. The first to fall was Tazok, who was less resistant to the damage than Sarevok. Next in line was Semaj.
At this point Angelo decided he might as well do something aggressive as let himself die from collateral damage and tried to attack Fizz. A few dispelling arrows later he also slowed down. With Angelo and Sarevok both visible it was easy to catch the former in blasts and he soon keeled over.
When Sarevok was at near death Fizz decided that he should finish him off hand to hand. He duly did so, though Sarevok did land one consolation blow in return before realising he was actually dead.
Here is the final character record for Fizz (I've adjusted his XP to the correct figure with Shadowkeeper). He finished up with 632 kills in 62 days.
As I've had trouble with the SCS final battle component I've no longer got that installed so I knew that all the opponents would be coming after Fizz - not to worry as he's got his speedy boots on. In addition Sarevok found himself slowing down fairly soon after the start of the fight.
There then came a lengthy passage with Fizz running round; the others were all chasing him, but only Sarevok was visible (apart from a few battle horrors who joined in the fun). Every now and then Fizz would let fly with an exploding arrow - that actually does less damage to Sarevok than other available missiles, but I was interested to see what effect they had on his colleagues. The first to fall was Tazok, who was less resistant to the damage than Sarevok. Next in line was Semaj.
At this point Angelo decided he might as well do something aggressive as let himself die from collateral damage and tried to attack Fizz. A few dispelling arrows later he also slowed down. With Angelo and Sarevok both visible it was easy to catch the former in blasts and he soon keeled over.
When Sarevok was at near death Fizz decided that he should finish him off hand to hand. He duly did so, though Sarevok did land one consolation blow in return before realising he was actually dead.
Here is the final character record for Fizz (I've adjusted his XP to the correct figure with Shadowkeeper). He finished up with 632 kills in 62 days.
#5163
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 05:02
corey_russell
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Congratulations Grond0. Good luck in Amn. I see by your character sheet you were disliked -- made more enemies than just Sarevok's lackeys, eh?
Here's an idea: Korgan, Anomen and Nalia. You get arcane/divine backup you got a tank to keep aggro so you can backstab, but the party would still be pretty small, so good leveling.
Here's an idea: Korgan, Anomen and Nalia. You get arcane/divine backup you got a tank to keep aggro so you can backstab, but the party would still be pretty small, so good leveling.
#5164
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 08:28
Charlestonian Knight Templar
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corey_russell wrote...
...Here's an idea: Korgan, Anomen and Nalia. You get arcane/divine backup you got a tank to keep aggro so you can backstab, but the party would still be pretty small, so good leveling.
C_R: I just don't see how you can put Korgan in w/sweet little Nalia & snobby Anomen. It just doesn't feel right. Us Paladin lovers can't stand the bad guys. LOL
Funny though, I read in a post from USS Norway that Viconia will change alignments for the PC. That interests me if it's true.
CKT
#5165
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 08:33
corey_russell
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Charlestonian Knight Templar wrote...
corey_russell wrote...
...Here's an idea: Korgan, Anomen and Nalia. You get arcane/divine backup you got a tank to keep aggro so you can backstab, but the party would still be pretty small, so good leveling.
C_R: I just don't see how you can put Korgan in w/sweet little Nalia & snobby Anomen. It just doesn't feel right. Us Paladin lovers can't stand the bad guys. LOL
Funny though, I read in a post from USS Norway that Viconia will change alignments for the PC. That interests me if it's true.
CKT
Korgan's a better tank than both Minsc and Valygar, but Grond0 is welcome to sub Mazzy for Korgan if he prefers. If you noticed, when Grond0 beat Sarevok he was "Disliked" reputation wise -- therefore Grond0 and Korgan should get along just fine!
#5166
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 08:58
Melchom
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And so the great screenshot experiment begins ..
Maelik - Human Fighter
Str: 18/72
Dex: 18
Con: 18
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 18
Pretty nice roll to be able to have high Cha too
Plan is to dual to thief once I've reached Fighter level 7 and going for an 'evil' run. Will be keeping rep low for chapter progressions but raising to neutral in between just so prices don't get completely crazy. It's all about who you kill at the right times 
Basically wanted an assassin type character but with more than 1 attack.
Proficiencies at level 1 are: Longsword ** and Longbow **
Cleared out the introductory quests in Candlekeep. Abandoning Imoen I took up with my old friends Monatron & Xzar. Travelling to Beregost I did my usual routine of recruiting Kagain, dealing with the idiot in Feldeposts, stealing Algernon's cloak, buying the book for the senile old mage (he'll be one of my rep drops soon
), disposing of Silke and the assassin and then clearing out the spiders .. phew!
Heading south and slaying everything that moved (lots of ghast/ghoul spawns always here in Tutu) Maelik reached level two!
Maelik - Human Fighter
Str: 18/72
Dex: 18
Con: 18
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 18
Pretty nice roll to be able to have high Cha too
Plan is to dual to thief once I've reached Fighter level 7 and going for an 'evil' run. Will be keeping rep low for chapter progressions but raising to neutral in between just so prices don't get completely crazy. It's all about who you kill at the right times Basically wanted an assassin type character but with more than 1 attack.
Proficiencies at level 1 are: Longsword ** and Longbow **
Cleared out the introductory quests in Candlekeep. Abandoning Imoen I took up with my old friends Monatron & Xzar. Travelling to Beregost I did my usual routine of recruiting Kagain, dealing with the idiot in Feldeposts, stealing Algernon's cloak, buying the book for the senile old mage (he'll be one of my rep drops soon
), disposing of Silke and the assassin and then clearing out the spiders .. phew! Heading south and slaying everything that moved (lots of ghast/ghoul spawns always here in Tutu) Maelik reached level two!
#5167
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 09:11
Melchom
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Hightailed it south avoiding trouble wherever possible and reached Nashkall - next chapter Grabbed the armour and met my old friend Noober. Another tiresome assassin was met in the inn and swiftly chopped into goo.
Heading back north the party started to clear the map but unfortunately met some wolfie friends.. and had no magical weapons to slay them with .. some running ensued..
On the plus .. Maelik now had a very nice AC with the help of the Ankheg armour .. and so was ready to recruit more soulless killers into the party.. Wounding her pride Sharteel joined the merry band.
North of Beregost the bandit thread was purged and Kagain realised his lot was well and truly thrown in with Maelik. The belt loving ogre was slain in single combat (a tad risky .. but still!)
Slaughtering the rest of the beasts on the map Maelik reached level 3 .. however he chose not to level up before the final member of the team was recruited.
/http://u.cubeupload.com/Sargiel/7.jpg
Travelling north to the Friendly Arm Inn .. yet another assassin was slain and moving east a drow priestess sought shelter from the law and found it while Maelik's blade severed the long arm of the law.
And now ....
Level 3
Grabbed the armour and met my old friend Noober. Another tiresome assassin was met in the inn and swiftly chopped into goo. Heading back north the party started to clear the map but unfortunately met some wolfie friends.. and had no magical weapons to slay them with .. some running ensued..
On the plus .. Maelik now had a very nice AC with the help of the Ankheg armour .. and so was ready to recruit more soulless killers into the party.. Wounding her pride Sharteel joined the merry band.
North of Beregost the bandit thread was purged and Kagain realised his lot was well and truly thrown in with Maelik. The belt loving ogre was slain in single combat (a tad risky .. but still!)
Slaughtering the rest of the beasts on the map Maelik reached level 3 .. however he chose not to level up before the final member of the team was recruited.
/http://u.cubeupload.com/Sargiel/7.jpg
Travelling north to the Friendly Arm Inn .. yet another assassin was slain and moving east a drow priestess sought shelter from the law and found it while Maelik's blade severed the long arm of the law.
And now ....
Level 3
#5168
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 09:20
Melchom
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Clearing the hobgoblins from around the Friendly Arm Inn and returning the goods to the owner of the spider house the party moved south (SSW) and slew the half-ogres who dared bar their path. A small band of outlaws also made the mistake of challenging Maelik and paid with their lives. The rest of the map was cleared and the gnolls dragged out to fight the party without Drizzt noticing ..
The Drow Ranger then passed on his 'sage advice' before the group moved north to hunt the mad cleric.
His magic proved no match for Maelik's blade and a split second after this screenshot his body was chopped into little pieces
Clearing the rest of the map (+2 shortsword to Montaron! ) and rescuing the chicken the group moved North .. and luckily the transformation was effected!
And ...
Level 4
The Drow Ranger then passed on his 'sage advice' before the group moved north to hunt the mad cleric.
His magic proved no match for Maelik's blade and a split second after this screenshot his body was chopped into little pieces
Clearing the rest of the map (+2 shortsword to Montaron!
) and rescuing the chicken the group moved North .. and luckily the transformation was effected! And ...
Level 4
#5169
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 09:23
Melchom
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Next target was the mines .. delving deep they uncovered the sinister plot and murdered the cause ..
#5170
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 09:36
After5CST
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Thanks for the adventure, I greatly enjoyed the read. And you did far better than I could even attempt.Enuhal wrote...
...finally killing Drusilla and ending this game for good.
I'll propably take a break from no-reloading for a while, good luck to all of you!
From my reading on Hard Times, I wouldn't ever use the mod. IMO, either it's biased against non-casters (if spell scrolls are still readily available for purchase), or it's biased against everybody but monks (who don't need equipment), sorcerors, druids, and clerics (who will get their spells regardless).
Plus, I'm missing the logic why the availability of magical items are affected by the iron shortage. I can see the prices for everything climbing significantly due to iron and trade disruption, but see no reason that stores would have already dumped off their magic items (as opposed to just raising the prices a little more).
#5171
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 10:21
gslester
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Hi, I am quite new to this (never actually
finished the game) but I wanted to give it a go, so I started a new
character. I have a few questions about the rules:
1. I do not reroll but I do adjust abilities, is that OK?
2. I went to a building to get a group
fight training and while adjusting equipment the man there asked if I had
enough (which I did not). But I did not see what I was doing and clicked on
something and as a result my training has ended.
I did not reload as I was playing no reload
challenge, but for future reference, would it be all right to reload as it was
a misclick, although an error on my part?
Thanks
Anyway, this character died while waylaid
by bunch of gibberlings and wardogs between Lion’s Way and Coast way. So started
a new one, probably will not get far either (I never do), but we shall see...
Please meet Graamros
I only rolled him and did not play, so
currently he is in Candlekeep standing in front of an inn with only quarterstaff
in his hand and no other equipment (not sure even how much money he got from
Gorion).
As you can see I put points in stealth and pickpocketing,
but being a good character I am not sure how much pickpocketing I will be doing.
Probably none. >_<
finished the game) but I wanted to give it a go, so I started a new
character. I have a few questions about the rules:
1. I do not reroll but I do adjust abilities, is that OK?
2. I went to a building to get a group
fight training and while adjusting equipment the man there asked if I had
enough (which I did not). But I did not see what I was doing and clicked on
something and as a result my training has ended.
I did not reload as I was playing no reload
challenge, but for future reference, would it be all right to reload as it was
a misclick, although an error on my part?
Thanks
Anyway, this character died while waylaid
by bunch of gibberlings and wardogs between Lion’s Way and Coast way. So started
a new one, probably will not get far either (I never do), but we shall see...
Please meet Graamros
I only rolled him and did not play, so
currently he is in Candlekeep standing in front of an inn with only quarterstaff
in his hand and no other equipment (not sure even how much money he got from
Gorion).
As you can see I put points in stealth and pickpocketing,
but being a good character I am not sure how much pickpocketing I will be doing.
Probably none. >_<
Modifié par gslester, 08 mars 2012 - 10:33 .
#5172
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 10:29
Enuhal
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Well done, Grond0! Good luck in Amn.
Thank you
I didn't exactly know how much Hard Times was gonna affect my game since I didn't read a lot about it. Some spell scrolls are still available (and quite expensive), but some are not (which is the reason Padma lacked any really good level 3 spells).
It generally turned Baldurs Gate into more of a low magic setting - except for potions, which at least the enemies had in abundance. While I generally don't dislike this as an idea (and, in some ways, it's more realistic), it limits a players options when it comes to using items intelligently, and what you spend your money on is crucial (since from my experience, buying more than 2 significant magical items before entering Baldurs Gate is almost impossible if you have to resurrect party members from time to time). While it adds new tactical components, it removes other ones I was kind of relying on in previous playthroughs, so I'm not sure if I'd play with it again. I don't want to get into another situation were I actually have to farm gold in BG1 to be able to progress.
After5CST wrote...
Thanks for the adventure, I greatly enjoyed the read. And you did far better than I could even attempt.
From my reading on Hard Times, I wouldn't ever use the mod. IMO, either it's biased against non-casters (if spell scrolls are still readily available for purchase), or it's biased against everybody but monks (who don't need equipment), sorcerors, druids, and clerics (who will get their spells regardless).
Plus, I'm missing the logic why the availability of magical items are affected by the iron shortage. I can see the prices for everything climbing significantly due to iron and trade disruption, but see no reason that stores would have already dumped off their magic items (as opposed to just raising the prices a little more).
Thank you
I didn't exactly know how much Hard Times was gonna affect my game since I didn't read a lot about it. Some spell scrolls are still available (and quite expensive), but some are not (which is the reason Padma lacked any really good level 3 spells).
It generally turned Baldurs Gate into more of a low magic setting - except for potions, which at least the enemies had in abundance. While I generally don't dislike this as an idea (and, in some ways, it's more realistic), it limits a players options when it comes to using items intelligently, and what you spend your money on is crucial (since from my experience, buying more than 2 significant magical items before entering Baldurs Gate is almost impossible if you have to resurrect party members from time to time). While it adds new tactical components, it removes other ones I was kind of relying on in previous playthroughs, so I'm not sure if I'd play with it again. I don't want to get into another situation were I actually have to farm gold in BG1 to be able to progress.
Modifié par Enuhal, 08 mars 2012 - 10:31 .
#5173
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 10:33
corey_russell
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@gslester: there are basically 4 reasons to reload per the rules:
1) To continue a previous session
2) to fix/recover from bugs
3) To reload from a system failure (e.g. hard drive died)
4) reloading from a "starting" position, e.g, just after character creation, in case you you wanted to give the same character a 2nd chance.
Otherwise, if something bad happens, for this challenge at least you don't reload - this included party members leaving, being chunked, PC dieing, selling something by accident, misclicking, Melicamp not surviving, etc. The whole point of no-reload is to adapt to hardship.
You are not required to accept the first roll, you may re-roll as much as you want. And you may adjust the stats/abilities.
A word of caution: if you haven't beat the game several times now with different characters, trying it no-reload is likely to be frustrating. It may require a dozen or maybe even 2 dozen re-starts before you get a success. Successful runs with reloads, could reduce the needed restarts quite a bit.
If you are having fun playing no-reload style (which we do), by all means continue as you are. I just thought I'd forewarn you.
1) To continue a previous session
2) to fix/recover from bugs
3) To reload from a system failure (e.g. hard drive died)
4) reloading from a "starting" position, e.g, just after character creation, in case you you wanted to give the same character a 2nd chance.
Otherwise, if something bad happens, for this challenge at least you don't reload - this included party members leaving, being chunked, PC dieing, selling something by accident, misclicking, Melicamp not surviving, etc. The whole point of no-reload is to adapt to hardship.
You are not required to accept the first roll, you may re-roll as much as you want. And you may adjust the stats/abilities.
A word of caution: if you haven't beat the game several times now with different characters, trying it no-reload is likely to be frustrating. It may require a dozen or maybe even 2 dozen re-starts before you get a success. Successful runs with reloads, could reduce the needed restarts quite a bit.
If you are having fun playing no-reload style (which we do), by all means continue as you are. I just thought I'd forewarn you.
Modifié par corey_russell, 08 mars 2012 - 10:35 .
#5174
Posté 08 mars 2012 - 10:37
gslester
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Thanks corey_russell
I will see how it goes, if Graamros dies, I might continue playing, just for myself, at least to finish the game once. :-)
I will see how it goes, if Graamros dies, I might continue playing, just for myself, at least to finish the game once. :-)
#5175
Posté 09 mars 2012 - 12:07
After5CST
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I've managed to finish the game 3 or four times (granted, it was > 10 years ago), and I have found the no-reload challenge reasonably difficult. I've had a couple of nearly won games since starting the challenge last November, but at the moment I have ZERO successful completions and dozens (hundreds?) of failed attempts.corey_russell wrote...
A word of caution: if you haven't beat the game several times now with different characters, trying it no-reload is likely to be frustrating. It may require a dozen or maybe even 2 dozen re-starts before you get a success.
I'm having great fun with it, but for somebody who hasn't completed the game, I would strongly recommend playing the game through to completion before starting a reload challenge, unless the player is very comfortable with restarting the game dozens or hundreds of times.
Of course, there's also the guys who have been here a long time and can beat the game in an afternoon. But they are, truly, the exceptions rather than the rule.
