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[Lyrandori]

This will be long for some of you here I know, so you've been warned (there's a TL;DR version at the end however).

It got me thinking about her under the Love Interest context of ME3 and beyond. We know that the Shepard's story arc will end with ME3 (ugh... don't like thinking about it but anyway, we'll have to adapt once it's over, right?), however the universe of ME might well persist, either in the form of other ME-related games, or books, or perhaps even movies, but I think that the one place where it can undoubtedly persist is in our minds, our imagination and our love for role-playing games and such (and our respective abilities to role-play the ME characters and universe beyond the third game, like our own personalized ME Expanded Universe).

The point of this is that my "main" character is a FemShep and I chose Liara as a LI in ME1, then in ME2 I flirted with Kelly since I had no more options with Liara other than going on Illium to do some work for her, not to mention getting a very seemingly unwilled/undesired kiss. I certainly didn't expect to bang her in her office either (not that my FemShep could anyway), but I expected... I don't know... something along the lines of: « By the way Liara I could take some time to let you come aboard the new Normandy, would you like to see it for a bit? », and then I don't know, after introducing her to the crew and/or acompanying her on the ship's tour they would eventually end up in Shep's cabin and would engage in some dialog (explaining more about her "friend" and the Shadow Broker, etc.) rather than in some sex, and then perhaps we could get a "better", more sensual good-bye kiss. But anyway, see that's part of what we can do with imagination and role-playing.

Now, what's the actual point of all this? Well, Liara is an Asari, and she will most likely live for around a thousand years, and even if she lives "only" say... maybe five or six hundred years for whatever reason then it's still a lot for humans, for Shepard as well of course. In "my" own role-play of the ME universe, off-screen if I can say it this way I perceive their relationship as being very progressive until a point where they are truly in love with each others (and here the definition of love is up to you since I got my own as well but I won't lose myself in its description right now). As we know Shepard is already in his/her thirties, but Liara is barely an adult by Asari standards even by the time of ME2's events (she's what, 106 years-old I believe?). So I don't know but if I was some guy with decisional power at BioWare I would certainly consider to make it so that at some point or another in ME3 that both Shepard and Liara have some serious discussion about how to spend the little time Shepard has left with Liara, and if wheter or not Liara is ready to start what will most likely by a life-long cycle of losing her lovers until she dies.

Could you imagine yourself in Liara's shoes for a moment? (go dig a bit in your role-playing abilities and your imagination) Shepard might die at say... 80 years-old or so? Alright, it's the future, medical progress and such, let's be generous, or better, very generous and let's pretend that Shepard didn't only save the galaxy but also made it to the oldest age for a human being ever and let's say that Shepard dies at the off-charts legendary age of 150 years-old (organs transplants, cellular-level changes, whatever medical science can do for humans to live longer, let's just say something along those lines happens to Shepard). That would give Shepard around 115 years or so to live, which would mean that the Shepard-Liara couple would cease to exist (due to Shepard's death, the real one this time) when Liara is around 220 years-old or so.

But what's left for Liara then? She could still have a good 700 or so years to take into consideration and live by-the-day. I'm not sure how any of you perceive this individually, of course, but I myself cannot think of a more depressing thought, because in my book they pretty much love each others to death, I.E Liara wouldn't know how to resume her life without Shepard, and vice versa (yeah, I know, two years passed for Liara while Shep was presumed dead, but the thing is Liara knew of Shep's situation, his/her coprse's location, and that Cerberus could bring him/her back to life, and so on and so forth, not to mention that her life was in danger anyway and, well... the point is that her life at that time wasn't calm at all and she wouldn't have had the time to properly "feel" Shepard's death even if it had been permanent). So, in ME3, before Shepard's story arc ends, I think that it would be great to have some "cannon" conversation between Liara and Shepard on this matter, about how Liara intends to cope with the very thought that one day Shepard will truly be gone for good and that Liara at that point will still have many centuries to go, or if wheter or not she actually thought about it in the first place when engaging with Shepard (or, if Shepard thought about it as well).

Going further into the principle itself I would compare this situation to a LI in the Dragon Age Origins universe, in which an Elf and a Human would fall in love, even if the Elves lost their agelessness a long time ago they still generally live to hundreds of years (from what I can recall anyway), and humans age and die in about the same way we do in real life, by the age of 40 or at least 50 you really start to physically show signs of age and bodily weaknesses, and by that time your Elven lover still has the physical appearance, capabilities, strenght and health of a 25 years-old, the Elf will live long after the human lover's death and will certainly have to try (hard or not) to mentally cope up with such a situation until... perhaps one day he/she (the Elf) finds yet another lover, crossing fingers (probably) that it doesn't happen to be another short-lived human only to lose him/her in "only" barely half a century from now.

In fact all of this subject was never brought up in either ME or ME2, by that I mean that I do not recall hearing a discussion with any Asari and how they perceive it to couple with generally short-lived (compared to them at least) aliens, even though (perhaps ironically) they persuade themselves to do just that in the name of variety of culture and knowledge, the Pure Bloods amongst them aren't well seen (generally speaking) and so they basically "have to" go with the "bond with aliens and have babies from them instead" trend. Even for Liara, she may well seem innocent, young and all that but maybe one day she might turn into a relatively cold-blooded Justicar for being pissed-off at not having Shepard on her side since a couple of centuries and not wanting to "try it" (love) with anyone else, aliens or not, due to the possibility that she commits herself fully to Shepard and only Shepard both mentally and physically, which then makes me wonder if such a concept (loyalty in couples with the Asari) even exists amongst the Asari culture and society. If you're a being whose going to live to nearly (or beyond) a thousand years, how would it be possible for them to even remotely conside to love only one person in their entire life? And if it's possible then is Liara part of that school of thought?

Well I could go on and on with this subject, I'm sorry I didn't write this with the whole thing planned in mind from the start so my apologies if you lost yourself a bit in the whole thing, but anyway, if that's the case then the TL;DR version bellow might help some of you figure out what was this all about:

TL;DR VERSION

º Shepard is a human, Liara is an Asari, big age difference from the start of the LI
º Liara will most likely live past 700 years or so (perhaps long past that point)
º Shepard will die between the age of 80 - 150 years-old (not stating as fact, only repeating my opinions)
º Liara will lose Shepard very soon in her life time, how is Liara intending to deal with that
º Did Shepard consider it as well from the start
º How do humans perceive the thought of being only one of potentially many lovers in the life of an Asari
º How do the Asari perceive the thought of having multiple (more than likely) short-lived alien (most of the time) lovers in their long-lasting life
º BioWare might want to "invest time" in ME3 for a good, profound philosophically-sided discussion about this subject (either between Shepard and Liara themselves, or between various humans, other aliens, and Asari inviduals)
º Subject never brought up in either ME1 and ME2 (from what I can remember, please correct me if I'm wrong)

So, with all that said, what's your view on all this?

Modifié par Lyrandori, 14 juillet 2010 - 11:40 .

[AntiChri5]

I cant help but agree with Shandepards reasoning on this one (if not his conclision).



The asari have this gentle, manipulative hold on the universe.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Lyrandori wrote...
post.

It's an interesting subject, and we can only hope that it would be brought up in ME3.

"EDIT" As for my view on the subject. I guess it's understandable that an asari would have diffrent lovers through out their life. Because spending 800 years alone, mourning the loss of someone sounds quite depressing.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 14 juillet 2010 - 12:05 .

[Lyrandori]

Shandepared wrote...

Liara does mention how asari cope with losing their short-lived lovers. She explains that most asari consider that their lover lives on in them.

Personally I'm against unions with asari. The way the asari have spread their empire is through sex. It allows them to infiltrate alien cultures with their own beliefs and it also lowers the birthrates of said non-asari. It wins them a great deal of influence. It's the reason they are the most widespread and influential species, the reason the salarian and turian councilors are always being lead-on by their asari comrade.

Ah, indeed, very good points. But manupilative or no, I must say that Liara is quite a special character, I really like her nonetheless, she's still my LI of choice, but I must admit that if BioWare considered more options for a "new" LI for FemSheps in ME2 I might have changed my mind, but sadly we all know how it goes for FemSheps in ME2 when it comes to that, hopefully in ME3 it will be better. But out of curiosity could you tell me where in ME1 or ME2 does Liara explain how the Asari cope with losing their short-loved lovers? I'm sure I've heard it at least once but I obviously forgot about it, I would appreciate to be reminded where and where such a conversation occurs. Thanks.

[Vhira]

There are several NPC conversations that focus on this philosophical issue within ME2. Two in particular are rather touching and memorable.

The first is the "life span talk" between the turian and asari in the Citadel gift shop. The second is at the Memories of Illium shop, where a Salarian and his asari stepdaughter are discussing the former's relative old age. Also, in the same place, the asari being wooed by the Krogan poet will mention that marrying a krogan isn't like pairing up with a human, where you just have to stick it out for a century until they die.

Modifié par Vhira, 14 juillet 2010 - 03:11 .

[NanQuan]

I've wondered about the "elven paradox" when Liara first talked about relationships with Shepard in ME1. But the question that I was really hoping to ask was about the offspring of the unions. The kids are asari and they watch one parent grow old and die while the other stays young. By asari standards, a human, salarian, or turian parent would likely die before the kid even reached maturity. I'm interested in how the family dynamic works in these relationships.

[Lyrandori]

NanQuan wrote...

I've wondered about the "elven paradox" when Liara first talked about relationships with Shepard in ME1. But the question that I was really hoping to ask was about the offspring of the unions. The kids are asari and they watch one parent grow old and die while the other stays young. By asari standards, a human, salarian, or turian parent would likely die before the kid even reached maturity. I'm interested in how the family dynamic works in these relationships.

That's also a very good point I hadn't thought about.

Now that you mention it, it makes me think about just what Liara would have to do to have at least a "part" of Shepard at her side for the rest of her life after Shepard's death, and that is having a child with Shepard. As we know the offspring would be Asari and Liara the mother I would presume, while Shepard would be the "father". At least some traits of Shepard would find their way into their child, and Liara would have someone at her side to love as a parent and to observe as well during her life to remind her of Shepard via the behavior of their child. I wonder if BioWare would "dare" doing this for ME3's ending, you know... something along the lines of a continuity of the story of specific characters until and after Shepard's death in written form à-la Dragon Age: Origins, for instance just before the credits roll we would get to read about what some of the crew became and what they did with their life after the events of ME3, and more specifically the small stories would focus on your LI, and in the case of Liara it would give more information as to what she has done for centuries following Shepard's death and how their child (possibly) grew up and dealt with having such a legendary lineage...

Food for thought for BioWare I think, ME3 has a lot of potential for a "real" and long closure of the story arc, I hope that similar things occur near or at the end and that we don't get to only see one or two scenes about the victory (or defeat) and then having the credits roll, that would seriously disappoint me, ME3 needs an epic ending.

Modifié par Lyrandori, 14 juillet 2010 - 10:31 .

[Wabi wa Sabi]

Shandepared wrote...

Lyrandori wrote...

 At least some traits of Shepard would find their way into their child...

No actually, they wouldn't.

How do you know this?

[SaltBot]

Something else to consider is the fact that Liara is in her Matron stage, and would still be so at the time of Shepard's death. Even Samara makes allusions to the promiscuity of Asari in the Matron stage, so how serious is this relationship to Liara, really? Even 100 years, provided it's completely contained within the Matron stage, is as much a fling to an Asari as, say, a two-week-long relationship that begins and ends while you're on vacation with your family in Toledo (not that I'd know anything about that) is a fling to a human. The emotional connection might very well be strong, the love might be real, but a fling by any other name is still easy to get over, especially when you have 700 years to do it.



I see any relationship between the two being much more important to Shepard than Liara. As the Asari equivalent of a 19 year old girl, can anyone really blame her for the apparent short attention span she suffers from between ME and ME2?

[didymos1120]

Shandepared wrote...

3mii wrote...

How do you know this?

It's right there in the codex and even the bartending matriarch backs it up. The children of asari/alien unions do not inherent ANYTHING from the alien partner. Nothing.

If you pay attention to Liara's conversation in ME1, even she doesn't seem to buy it.  She explains the whole traits-from-father-species notion, but then immediately says that's what "popular wisdom" claims.

[didymos1120]

SaltBot wrote...

Something else to consider is the fact that Liara is in her Matron stage, and would still be so at the time of Shepard's death. Even Samara makes allusions to the promiscuity of Asari in the Matron stage, so how serious is this relationship to Liara, really?

You mean Maiden stage. The Matron stage is when their biological alarm clock goes off and they start having kids.

[Lyrandori]

didymos1120 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

3mii wrote...

How do you know this?

It's right there in the codex and even the bartending matriarch backs it up. The children of asari/alien unions do not inherent ANYTHING from the alien partner. Nothing.

If you pay attention to Liara's conversation in ME1, even she doesn't seem to buy it.  She explains the whole traits-from-father-species notion, but then immediately says that's what "popular wisdom" claims.

Not only that, but that same Asari bartender on Illium says at one point that she might well have the mouth of her father after all (and the way she talks, behaves, moves and so on at least to me seems that she indeed inherited some traits of a nonchalent Krogran father). But that wouldn't be the first contradiction of the ME universe as portrayed in the games however small it may be.

[jlb524]

Lyrandori wrote...

º Shepard is a human, Liara is an Asari, big age difference from the start of the LI
º Liara will most likely live past 700 years or so (perhaps long past that point)
º Shepard will die between the age of 80 - 150 years-old (not stating as fact, only repeating my opinions)
º Liara will lose Shepard very soon in her life time, how is Liara intending to deal with that
º Did Shepard consider it as well from the start
º How do humans perceive the thought of being only one of potentially many lovers in the life of an Asari
º How do the Asari perceive the thought of having multiple (more than likely) short-lived alien (most of the time) lovers in their long-lasting life
º BioWare might want to "invest time" in ME3 for a good, profound philosophically-sided discussion about this subject (either between Shepard and Liara themselves, or between various humans, other aliens, and Asari inviduals)
º Subject never brought up in either ME1 and ME2 (from what I can remember, please correct me if I'm wrong)

So, with all that said, what's your view on all this?

I've thought of this many times.  Liara will just move on eventually and I'm OK with this.

I think the answers to some of these questions depend on the player and how they RP their Shepard.  As for the asari related stuff, it seems they have accepted the fact that they will out-live their alien partner by many years...this may vary with some individuals, though.  Again I think Liara will be able to move on after Shepard's death, even though it will hurt her for a long time, and she will always carry that sadness with her along with the memory of Shepard.

I would like to see this discussed (among other things) with Liara in ME3, though they have to fix the relationship first

[jlb524]

Shandepared wrote...

Personally I'm against unions with asari. The way the asari have spread their empire is through sex. It allows them to infiltrate alien cultures with their own beliefs and it also lowers the birthrates of said non-asari. It wins them a great deal of influence. It's the reason they are the most widespread and influential species, the reason the salarian and turian councilors are always being lead-on by their asari comrade.

I believe Liara would disagree with you.

[Wabi wa Sabi]

Shandepared wrote...
If you have a child with an asari you will NEVER be biologically related to that father.

I don't agree with that, because if that were true then asari impregnation by another species by a rule shouldn't be necessary - if no biological "essence" was needed from another species/asari then the asari would be able to reproduce on their own. Some biology, no matter how small, must exist in the offspring, because the sperm/whatever from the other species (or asari) was needed for it's creation.