28 réponses à ce sujet

[ajburges]

I was just looking at powers in preperation of making my soldier playthrough (I have a borderline unhealthy facination with min/maxing in games with class systems due to a love of number crunching) and stumbled upon a troubleing tidbit.

(Clarification on correct numbers/assumptions to use would be nice)

Assumptions:
+x% power damage modifies the +y% bonus of the power via y*(1+x/100)
all upgades obtained (+60% tech dam, -20% tech cooldown)

As an infiltrator, the powers I use add +90/101.25% plus 57.5% if ammo comes into play:
75% Assassination Cloak (Possible 15% bonus to this damage from Assassin for 86.25%)
15% Assassin
50% Heavy Warp Ammo (Vs. Armor, Barriers, and HP) (Possible 15% bonus to this damage from Assassin)

As a soldier, the powers for a widow setup add +155/176% plus 57.5% if ammo comes into play:
140% Heithened Adreniline Rush (Possible 15% bonus to this damage from Commando for 161%)
15% Commando
50% Heavy Warp Ammo (Vs. Armor, Barriers, and HP) (Possible 15%
bonus to this damage from Commando)

Infiltrator does this damage every time Assassination Cloak recycles: ~5.76+ sec (~4.26 s recharge + aim (in bullet time) + 1.5 s reload)
Soldier does this every time Heithened Adreniline Rush recycles: ~8 sec (3 s recharge + 5 s duration)

Geneal weapon damage bonuses as follows:
13% N7 Armor
50% Sniper upgrades
50% Armor Piercing Upgade (Vs Armor)

(I can't find info about headshot bonuses but those are general access and ignored.)

So by my math we have Infiltrator getting +153-164.25% extra damage every 6-7 sec and Soldier getting +218-239% extra damage every 8 sec.

This leads me to the thought that soldier makes the better widow using sniper given my prefrence of one hit kills (and thus damage per bullet).

My question for discussion: does soldier make for a better damage driven sniper?

More importantly: does the supperior damage output even broaden the category of one hit enimes in insanity? (By endgame vetren even Harbinger was a one hit kill for my infiltrator if warp was cast by Miranda)

Modifié par ajburges, 14 juillet 2010 - 03:30 .

[Kronner]

Yes, Soldier is better sniper than Infiltrator. Heightened AR gives 140% damage bonus. Cloak is not even close. Though when you have 6 tech damage upgrades, you will be very close, maybe even slightly better. On Insanity you will not be able to one shot Harbinger no matter what though.

Modifié par Kronner, 14 juillet 2010 - 01:34 .

[Pacifien]

I'd have to take a closer look at your math, but I do know from previous discussions that, yes, the damage bonus on a Soldier makes for a more powerful sniper than that of an Infiltrator. But you have to look at an Infiltrator as more than just the "sniper" class -- indeed, many will use it for CQC. The benefit is purely the tech abilities and the hidden cloak.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

In terms of damage output, Soldier easily. Another huge advantage is that every shot you take while on Adrenaline Rush benefits from the damage bonus - with the Infiltrator, you get one shot with the Widow, that's it.



With that being said, on the harder difficulties it's a good idea to, you know, flank and stuff. Of course, as a Widow user, I suppose you can just stay perched in one spot and just shoot the stupid AI. Anyway, Infiltrator is easily the better sniper in terms of everything leading up to taking the shot.



BTW, I don't think the tech damage upgrades apply to Cloak - e.g. with Assassination Cloak its 75% no matter how many tech damage upgrades you get. AFAIK it only benefits from the tech duration/cooldown upgrades.

[Kronner]

Pacifien wrote...

I'd have to take a closer look at your math, but I do know from previous discussions that, yes, the damage bonus on a Soldier makes for a more powerful sniper than that of an Infiltrator. But you have to look at an Infiltrator as more than just the "sniper" class -- indeed, many will use it for CQC. The benefit is purely the tech abilities and the hidden cloak.

Soldier can be just as good or better CQC. Thing is, Infiltrator really feels like nerfed Soldier. Sure you are invisible for some time, but as a Soldier with Heightened AR, you have 70% time dilatation - just as good as being invisible. Just my opinion anyways.

[Pacifien]

There probably isn't anything strictly combat related that the Soldier couldn't do better as far as damage output versus an Infiltrator or a Vanguard. Didn't mean to imply the Infiltrator was better at CQC. But with the cloak, the Infiltrator does have a good opportunity to close in on the target without, you know, being shot at. And a Vanguard has the ultimate means for closing the distance, of course.

[Pacifien]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
BTW, I don't think the tech damage upgrades apply to Cloak - e.g. with Assassination Cloak its 75% no matter how many tech damage upgrades you get. AFAIK it only benefits from the tech duration/cooldown upgrades.

This is true. A great resource is stickied on this page: ME2 Gameplay Data.

[jwalker]

Kronner wrote...

Yes, Soldier is better sniper than Infiltrator. Heightened AR gives 140% damage bonus. Cloak is not even close. Though when you have 6 tech damage upgrades, you will be very close, maybe even slightly better. On Insanity you will not be able to one shot Harbinger no matter what though.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that...
Mass Effect 2 Gameplay Data

Edit: crap... I was writing this when Pacifien already posted that link

Modifié par jwalker, 14 juillet 2010 - 03:10 .

[Tlazolteotl]

Infiltrator casts fireballs.

[ajburges]

Thanks for the quick responses.

I don't argue that Infiltrator handles other aspects of sniping better (stealth and positioning), but it's a little annoying to have soldier gain another 1/2 base damage per shot when I feel that the Infiltrator should be the best sniper period.

While fireballs are nice, it seems as though a Widow shot strips more ammo (and disappointingly the hand cannon does even better) and thus my magic fireball is used with the scope to snipe without wasting bullets.

I have on occasion used the cloak to storm with the locust (would the tempest be better for that?) and it works well until I get too aggressive.

I also figured that Harbinger would not be a sniper OHKO (maby with a shoty, but that's a different class) on my first playthrough on Vet my infiltrator needed Miranda and Thane to do a double warp before my cloak shot (which led to the humorous outcome of killing full squads of Harbingers, each within seconds of them being converted:D)

Modifié par ajburges, 14 juillet 2010 - 03:42 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

The Tempest has a higher damage output per second than the Locust, so in that respect it's better for storming. In practice, there really isn't a difference to me - especially with cryo ammo. In fact, (squad) cryo ammo is extremely useful on insanity, as once you strip an enemy of its defenses it's pretty much over.

However, I'd rather storm with the Widow (Warp/Tungsten ammo). Cloak, quick scope, and an elbow of death if required. Hilarious - try that Soldier!

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 14 juillet 2010 - 04:23 .

[ajburges]

If there isn't a noticeable difference in cqc dps between the Tempest
and Locust I'll keep the locust then (The fact it has ammo forever and
AR quality performance make it my most versatile weapon).

I'll
have to try the cqc with the widow. I often Horde ammo for that for my
snipe fests (When I go camping only Praetorians and Husks flank me). I
have noticed that below 2/3 reserve ammo I get double ammo per drop so I
use the widow more liberally now.

Unfortunately, I like warp
ammo too much to give it up for squad cryo (and warp ammo is the most
likely drop to make room).

Modifié par ajburges, 15 juillet 2010 - 09:40 .

[Omicrone]

The infiltrator will clear rooms faster than a soldier because on Insanity it doesn't only come down to the damage bonus. Yeah, Soldier will hit harder but you'll only notice that against heavily armored targets such as Krogan, YMIR mechs, Geth Primes and such. Against the regular mercs or LOKI your damage won't matter as they'll die from 1 headshot either by infiltrator or soldier. However, the infiltrator has the added bonus of not wasting a cooldown every time s/he zooms with a sniper. Therefore you don't have to wait for cloak to reload and you can save it for tougher enemies. For a soldier, unless you're an insanely good shot, lining up headshots can occur exclusively in adrenaline rush. Therefore a widow wielding soldier will kill 1 enemy while in AR, a viper wielding soldier will kill more. In the same time you use 1 AR, an infiltrator can pop out of cover and kill 2-3 enemies without wasting a cooldown.

[SmokeyNinjas]

Omicrone wrote...

The infiltrator will clear rooms faster than a soldier because on Insanity it doesn't only come down to the damage bonus. Yeah, Soldier will hit harder but you'll only notice that against heavily armored targets such as Krogan, YMIR mechs, Geth Primes and such. Against the regular mercs or LOKI your damage won't matter as they'll die from 1 headshot either by infiltrator or soldier. However, the infiltrator has the added bonus of not wasting a cooldown every time s/he zooms with a sniper. Therefore you don't have to wait for cloak to reload and you can save it for tougher enemies. For a soldier, unless you're an insanely good shot, lining up headshots can occur exclusively in adrenaline rush. Therefore a widow wielding soldier will kill 1 enemy while in AR, a viper wielding soldier will kill more. In the same time you use 1 AR, an infiltrator can pop out of cover and kill 2-3 enemies without wasting a cooldown.

QFT
Theirs a lot more factors then just who does the most burst damage when picking the best sniper.
I always felt that the Infiltrator was better with the Widow while the Soldier worked best with the Viper.

[Tlazolteotl]

ajburges wrote...

While fireballs are nice, it seems as though a Widow shot strips more ammo (and disappointingly the hand cannon does even better) and thus my magic fireball is used with the scope to snipe without wasting bullets.

That's not the function of a fireball .. and I chose the word fireball for a reason.
Incinerate is usually the very first power I evolve, and into incineration blast, and I use it as AoE direct damage ... just like a fireball in a fantasy game.

They have shields? Incinerate. They have barrier? Incinerate. Health? Incinerate .. with bonus cc.
The point is, Incinerate may get a 2.4x bonus against armour, but landing 160 damage vs. 3 targets, and staggering them (i.e. stand still! Boom headshot) is very efficient.

Ok, let's say you're up against collectors, and you have the option of using heavy warp or incineration blast.
Hey look, that target has barrier! Heavy warp will do 400 damage!
Incineration blast does 160 damage to 3 targets ... why, that's a total of 480 damage.
And incindentally, it also blew up a canister, adding extra damage, and one of those collectors was on health, and is now panicking ...

Bottom line is, an infiltrator can finish the game faster than anyone else .. unless you can play a charge-spamming vanguard without dying much .. and not because they shoot harder than anyone.
It's 'cos they have fireballs.

[mosor]

Soldier does more damage than an inflitrator and has a similar slowdown during an adrenaline rush. The infiltrator gets the slowdown every time it aims. For someone who consistently played first person shooters in the past, the slowdown isn't a big deal and will score hits regardless if he turns on adrenaline rush or not. So if fast paced targeting isn't your forte, then the infiltrator is better because you always get the slowdown, while with the soldier it's once every 3 seconds (when AR is maxed)

[FoFoZem]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Infiltrator casts fireballs.

[/thread]

[Omicrone]

Sorry but you can't score headshots all the time with soldier without AR on. Mostly because aiming isn't the whole story - you also take damage while out of cover, you can get staggered by a shotgun blast/enemy warp/incinerate etc and you have to watch your flanks. On Insanity a missed widow shot can mean your death. That's exactly the reason why Infiltrator is better.

Modifié par Omicrone, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:31 .

[mosor]

Omicrone wrote...

Sorry but you can't score headshots all the time with soldier without AR on. Mostly because aiming isn't the whole story - you also take damage while out of cover, you can get staggered by a shotgun blast/enemy warp/incinerate etc and you have to watch your flanks. On Insanity a missed widow shot can mean your death. That's exactly the reason why Infiltrator is better.

I score enough headshots on a soldier without AR to make it worth it. Besides, upgraded a solider can use AR every 3 seconds. During an AR, especially heightenined. you're not going to take that much damage to be worried about it.
Cloak, on the other hand can only be used very 4.8 seconds.

As for missed widow shots. It's not going to mean your death on  a soldier. He's got plenty of other weapons like a shotgun or an assault rifle to back him up. He can also turn on AR and run away if it comes down to that.

[angj57]

For me, cloak doesn't seem as useful as it could be, because some enemies tend to duck under cover when you cloak, whereas when you AR they stay exposed and leave their heads out for you.

[NaclynE]

Well from my experience from playing both classes here's my take on the two:

Soldier-
High survivalbility.
Has the ability to use all guns in the game.
Does not need to learn weapons training onboard collectors ship.
Can gain Widow sniper rifle, Revenant assault rifle, or Claymore shotgun.
Needs to use adrenline shot in order to slow things down while useing sniper rifle.
Is designed for heavy hitting so you will be the target quite often on harder difficulties.
Had good health, damage,  and armor input.

Infiltrator-
designed for speed and stealth.
Can use Smgs, sniper rifles, and pistols besides heavy weapons.
Can learn shotgun or assault rifle onboard collector ship.
Can only gain the Widow sniper rifle on collector ship. Does not have the training for the other two.
When snipeing, you have a auto slow mo feature where you can shoot more precise when makeing head shots. Also the two classes can extened the length of time the slow mo is.
Is designed for shooting targets from a far or to flank targets. The two cloak modes provide the ability to make stealth hits as well.
Has low health and armor. Damage for snipeing is very good.

Personally I like stealth attacking things and snipeing. The widow benefits the infiltrator very well. However as a soldier I felt like I flew through the game when I got the Revenant assault rifle where bosses like the giant mech in Jacobs loyalty mission stood no chance against it on Veteran difficulty.
To me it's al about personal preferance probably more than anything else.

[Omicrone]

mosor wrote...

I score enough headshots on a soldier without AR to make it worth it. Besides, upgraded a solider can use AR every 3 seconds. During an AR, especially heightenined. you're not going to take that much damage to be worried about it.
Cloak, on the other hand can only be used very 4.8 seconds.

As for missed widow shots. It's not going to mean your death on  a soldier. He's got plenty of other weapons like a shotgun or an assault rifle to back him up. He can also turn on AR and run away if it comes down to that.

This isn't a comparison between cloak and AR. We all know how powerful AR is. The point, however, is that infiltrator can clear rooms faster with widow than a soldier due to scoring more headshots in a smaller time frame. That obviously comes from the time dilation which helps infiltrator with aiming without wasting a cooldown. No matter how good of a shot you are with a soldier, you will miss unless you use AR all the time, which again will be counter productive cause it will take you a lot of time to kill the same amount of enemies as an infiltrator. Bottom line - if both infiltrator and soldier competed for time, the former will miss less/score more headshots than soldier, which makes it a better sharpshooter.

[tonnactus]

Omicrone wrote...

The infiltrator will clear rooms faster than a soldier because on Insanity it doesn't only come down to the damage bonus. Yeah, Soldier will hit harder but you'll only notice that against heavily armored targets such as Krogan, YMIR mechs, Geth Primes and such. Against the regular mercs or LOKI your damage won't matter as they'll die from 1 headshot either by infiltrator or soldier. However, the infiltrator has the added bonus of not wasting a cooldown every time s/he zooms with a sniper. Therefore you don't have to wait for cloak to reload and you can save it for tougher enemies. For a soldier, unless you're an insanely good shot, lining up headshots can occur exclusively in adrenaline rush. Therefore a widow wielding soldier will kill 1 enemy while in AR, a viper wielding soldier will kill more. In the same time you use 1 AR, an infiltrator can pop out of cover and kill 2-3 enemies without wasting a cooldown.

Too bad some enemies like blue suns automatically go into cover when the player use cloak.

[tonnactus]

tonnactus wrote...



The infiltrator will clear rooms faster than a soldier because on Insanity it doesn't only come down to the damage bonus. Yeah, Soldier will hit harder but you'll only notice that against heavily armored targets such as Krogan, YMIR mechs, Geth Primes and such. Against the regular mercs or LOKI your damage won't matter as they'll die from 1 headshot either by infiltrator or soldier. However, the infiltrator has the added bonus of not wasting a cooldown every time s/he zooms with a sniper. Therefore you don't have to wait for cloak to reload and you can save it for tougher enemies. For a soldier, unless you're an insanely good shot, lining up headshots can occur exclusively in adrenaline rush. Therefore a widow wielding soldier will kill 1 enemy while in AR, a viper wielding soldier will kill more. In the same time you use 1 AR, an infiltrator can pop out of cover and kill 2-3 enemies without wasting a cooldown.

Too bad some enemies like blue suns(except shotgunners) automatically go into cover when the player use cloak.

Modifié par tonnactus, 17 juillet 2010 - 01:19 .

[implodinggoat]

Omicrone wrote...

mosor wrote...

I score enough headshots on a soldier without AR to make it worth it. Besides, upgraded a solider can use AR every 3 seconds. During an AR, especially heightenined. you're not going to take that much damage to be worried about it.
Cloak, on the other hand can only be used very 4.8 seconds.

As for missed widow shots. It's not going to mean your death on  a soldier. He's got plenty of other weapons like a shotgun or an assault rifle to back him up. He can also turn on AR and run away if it comes down to that.

This isn't a comparison between cloak and AR. We all know how powerful AR is. The point, however, is that infiltrator can clear rooms faster with widow than a soldier due to scoring more headshots in a smaller time frame. That obviously comes from the time dilation which helps infiltrator with aiming without wasting a cooldown. No matter how good of a shot you are with a soldier, you will miss unless you use AR all the time, which again will be counter productive cause it will take you a lot of time to kill the same amount of enemies as an infiltrator. Bottom line - if both infiltrator and soldier competed for time, the former will miss less/score more headshots than soldier, which makes it a better sharpshooter.

I think a soldier can still clear a room with the Widow just as quickly as the Infiltrator since you don't even need the damage boost from AR to take down your average enemy with one shot from the Widow in fact most of them don't even require a headshot to take down with one shot from the Widow.  I'd concede that you do miss occassionally if you aren't benefiting from the slowdown effect of AR; but by the same token the Soldier can also take down elite targets quicker with the Widow since Heightened AR gives you a +140% weapon damage bonus as opposed to the +75% bonus from assasination cloak.