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Please no Ubisoft DRM


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72 réponses à ce sujet

#51
ZtalkerRM

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Livemmo wrote...
Let me get this straight.. because "proesecuting everyone who downloaded a certain MP-3 is immposible", it makes it less against the law?

You can laugh as hard as you want but until the day EVERYONE and ANYONE who ever downloaded an mp3 is thrown in prison and/or fined I will not treat this "law" seriously. By definition, piracy of downloadable media isnt theft. Maybe you should go read the dictionary?

Just because something is impossible to enforce doesnt mean it's any less against the law. If you're going to throw someone in jail for downloading a 9gb file then throw the same person that downloaded an mp3 EVER IN THEIR LIFE in the same prison. The law is the law.

It's laughable to see this even being discussed. Like it or not its NOT theft. 


Did I mention jail anywhere? I believe I said something along the lines of 'fines.'
I know it's a difficult thing, but it can't keep on going like this. And I don't know who you're responding too, I thought I already made it clear I think it's theft too.
PS: Dictionary: 2. The unauthorized use or reproduction of
copyrighted or patented material: software
piracy.

But let's forget about this. It has no use to discuss this further :) everyone has an opinion about this and we're not in power to fix the problem.

#52
Livemmo

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aye

#53
Loc'n'lol

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This discussion has no bearing on the topic and its probably way too soon to be talking drm when the game is nowhere nearly done...

#54
soteria

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I'd like to attempt to clear up a couple misconceptions about piracy in this thread. Both of them have been repeated often in this thread and others.

1. "Piracy doesn't cost sales because pirates wouldn't actually buy the game anyway."

In response, I'll quote an article (link below). Piracy does cause economic loss.

The argument is straightforward and both intuitively and logically sound: for every pirated copy of a product, there is some potential loss of income to the producer of that product. This is not the same as saying that every pirated copy is a lost sale. What it actually means is that firstly some proportion of the people who are pirating a game would have bought it in the absence of piracy. Equally as important however is the fact that even those who would never have paid the full purchase price for one reason or another may still have paid some lower amount to purchase and play the game which they pirated. This is because by the very act of obtaining and playing a game, they've clearly demonstrated that they place some value on that game. After all, if something is truly 'worthless', consumers won't bother to obtain or use it in the first place, regardless of whether it's free or not. Even if a game only gives the pirate a few hours of enjoyment, that's still worth something. In the absence of piracy they may have purchased the game at a discount several months after its release, or bought it second-hand for example. So the existence of piracy results in some loss of income to PC game developers, publishers, retailers and even other consumers.

Pure economic loss is actually very difficult to calculate in precise terms because it's largely hypothetical - there's no way of knowing exactly how many more units of a particular product would have sold if piracy did not exist, or how much money various people would have paid over time to buy discounted or second-hand copies in the absence of piracy for example. However examination of piracy figures combined with sales figures for similar products which are less affected by piracy does provide some indication of the scale of loss.


2. "DRM is useless because all games get cracked eventually."

This is simply a misunderstanding of the purpose of DRM and copy protection of all kinds. Do you stop locking your car simply because a determined thief will break a window, or do you remove the locks on your house because physical locks are ineffective at stopping thieves? No. Neither the lock on your car nor the copy protection on a game is intended to be foolproof--it's impossible. The goal is twofold: keep honest people honest, and delay the eventual crack.

Primarily, game companies want to avoid day-zero (pre-release) and day-one cracks. Imagine if DA:O, or any major title, were cracked before release. Unfortunately, I know a number of people who certainly wouldn't have waited for release to play the game. If the game is cracked a month after release, that's still a success. Some people like to play games they didn't pay for, but they're also impatient and are more likely to just buy a game if the crack takes too long. It's the initial month or two after release that is the most important for sales, and that's the time period DRM and copy protection tries to cover.

If anyone is interested in reading an article that covers this issue in depth, click here.

#55
Oldenglishcdr

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DeepGray wrote...

Oldenglishcdr wrote...

You do realise Pirates are hurting game companies in lost sales

You have no proof of that. If you do, I'd like to see it.


Here is proof for you, although I can't believe one can be so ignorant and naive:- blogs.capecodonline.com/cape-cod-gaming/2010/05/13/nintendo-fires-broadside-at-pirates/

Modifié par Oldenglishcdr, 16 juillet 2010 - 01:07 .


#56
Bfler

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Why should they use DRM? The idea behind the DRM is to destroy the second hand market, nothing more. EA uses the DLC concept (project ten dollar), so there is no need for DRM. 

Modifié par Bfler, 16 juillet 2010 - 01:34 .


#57
Oldenglishcdr

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I'm not saying I condone DRM, on the contrary, however as long as piracy exists each Game company in question has the right to do whatever they feel necessary to protect their business. In particular the smaller companies are the ones who will most likely feel the loss from piracy, and the smaller companies are usually the companies who are more willing to innovate and produce new types or original games.

#58
TMZuk

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I do not purchase or play any games what so ever with that feature. I do not play games that uses the Games for Windows feature either. I disable the online-feature in DA and ME/ME2.

I don't care the companies claim they do not, I do NOT want them sniffing around in my computer, spying and gathering information. Microsoft has a rich history of lying, betraying trust, and spying. It is such an insult, and such a breach on privacy, that I fail to understand why it is accepted by so many as it is. Boycot those games, and you'll see the developers giving up on that idea, real fast.

I wish to god the gamedevelopers would show some guts and develop games for Linux. It was a wonder feature with NWN.

Modifié par TMZuk, 16 juillet 2010 - 02:05 .


#59
mmmu

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I think having to be online all the time to play a single-player game is quite pushing it. I mean, I actually wouldn't mind if my connection was synonymous with stability but with it dropping offline several times a day I'd think it'd ruin a good gaming experience, eh!
I'm all up for developers protecting their products but I'm not sure complete online requirement is the best way to do it. 

#60
TMZuk

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Oldenglishcdr wrote...

I'm not saying I condone DRM, on the contrary, however as long as piracy exists each Game company in question has the right to do whatever they feel necessary to protect their business. In particular the smaller companies are the ones who will most likely feel the loss from piracy, and the smaller companies are usually the companies who are more willing to innovate and produce new types or original games.


They have NO such right. They have no right intruding on peoples privacy, in order to prevent theft. They have no right to spy on people in order to prevent theft.

If you own a company, you don't have the right to install listening devices in all your customers houses, in order to eavesdrop on them to make certain they haven't stolen from you. It is a gross violation of he Right to Privacy.

Modifié par TMZuk, 16 juillet 2010 - 02:10 .


#61
huwie

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soteria wrote...
The goal is twofold: keep honest people honest, and delay the eventual crack.

The BIGGER goal is to maximise sales and revenue. If it was really about keeping honest people honest and preventing cracks ... not releasing the game at all meets both of those quite handily.

The impotant question for a publisher is: does a game with draconian DRM maximise sales and revenue, or is that goal better met by a more customer-friendly approach? From my personal sample-of-one, I can report that the originally-proposed DA:O DRM would have cost them at least one sale of the game and DLC.

The fact that EA stepped back from the original heavy-handed DRM proposed for DA:O is significant ... and was a response, I believe, to the howls of protests that appeared on the forums, and the prospect of hundreds of DRM-based reviews on Amazon. May the howls and the 1-star reviews continue for as long as they need to ;)

#62
Oldenglishcdr

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TMZuk wrote...

Oldenglishcdr wrote...

I'm not saying I condone DRM, on the contrary, however as long as piracy exists each Game compan
y in question has the right to do whatever they feel necessary to protect their business. In particular the smaller companies are the ones who will most likely feel the loss from piracy, and the smaller companies are usually the companies who are more willing to innovate and produce new types or original games.


They have NO such right. They have no right intruding on peoples privacy, in order to prevent theft. They have no right to spy on people in order to prevent theft.


If you own a company, you don't have the right to install listening devices in all your customers houses, in order to eavesdrop on them to make certain they haven't stolen from you. It is a gross violation of he Right to Privacy.


Like I said I don't condone DRM. But it is ironic saying they have no right to use DRM when at the same time people claim it's okay to pirate software or that there is nothing wrong with it. (See the hypocrisy?).

Personaly I feel if these game companies really wanted to stop piracy I'm sure they could (without DRM) with the help of some of the worlds top coders, given how much money Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft generate.

#63
soteria

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I don't care the companies claim they do not, I do NOT want them sniffing around in my computer, spying and gathering information. Microsoft has a rich history of lying, betraying trust, and spying. It is such an insult, and such a breach on privacy, that I fail to understand why it is accepted by so many as it is. Boycot those games, and you'll see the developers giving up on that idea, real fast.


If you actually have any evidence that any copy protection or DRM "spies on you" then I'd like to see it. I strongly suspect you don't have any evidence at all--this is the sort of unfounded claim that the people who just hate DRM like to throw around a lot, and other people who don't like DRM on their games are all too happy to believe. Game developers and producers would really rather not have to use expensive DRM on their games--paying the copy protection people eats into their profit.

The BIGGER goal is to maximise sales and revenue. If it was really about keeping honest people honest and preventing cracks ... not releasing the game at all meets both of those quite handily.

The impotant question for a publisher is: does a game with draconian DRM maximise sales and revenue, or is that goal better met by a more customer-friendly approach? From my personal sample-of-one, I can report that the originally-proposed DA:O DRM would have cost them at least one sale of the game and DLC.


Seeing as how these companies are more and more using tougher copy protection on their games, I'm guessing that their internal numbers are telling them that they're losing more sales from piracy than from a few miffed people who don't like DRM. Or, they could always focus more on console sales, since that platform is pirated far less already.

Personaly I feel if these game companies really wanted to stop piracy I'm sure they could (without DRM) with the help of some of the worlds top coders, given how much money Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft generate.


Consoles are pirated less for different reasons. On a PC, piracy is easy and relatively risk-free: you download the torrent and install the game. On a console, you have to mod your box, voiding the warranty, possibly damaging it, and also possibly making it harder for you to play legitimately purchased games. Any sort of copy protection can and will be cracked.

#64
Oldenglishcdr

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soteria wrote...


Personaly I feel if these game companies really wanted to stop piracy I'm sure they could (without DRM) with the help of some of the worlds top coders, given how much money Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft generate.

Consoles are pirated less for different reasons. On a PC, piracy is easy and relatively risk-free: you download the torrent and install the game. On a console, you have to mod your box, voiding the warranty, possibly damaging it, and also possibly making it harder for you to play legitimately purchased games. Any sort of copy protection can and will be cracked.


Indeed it does seem as though any type of copy protection can be cracked given time. If I recall correctly piracy was precisely one of the reasons Nintendo wanted to continue using the cartridge format even after N64, although the other reason being of course was that they could continue to profit from companies and maintain control of the format.

I guess as long as Piracy exists though companies will continue to look for new and alternative methods to protect their property, whether it's a popular solution or not.

Modifié par Oldenglishcdr, 16 juillet 2010 - 06:45 .


#65
packardbell

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Oldenglishcdr wrote...

soteria wrote...


Personaly I feel if these game companies really wanted to stop piracy I'm sure they could (without DRM) with the help of some of the worlds top coders, given how much money Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft generate.

Consoles are pirated less for different reasons. On a PC, piracy is easy and relatively risk-free: you download the torrent and install the game. On a console, you have to mod your box, voiding the warranty, possibly damaging it, and also possibly making it harder for you to play legitimately purchased games. Any sort of copy protection can and will be cracked.


Indeed it does seem as though any type of copy protection can be cracked given time. If I recall correctly piracy was precisely one of the reasons Nintendo wanted to contniue using the cartridge format even after N64, although the other reason being of course was that they could continue to profit from companies and maintain control of the format.

I guess as long as Piracy exists though companies will continue to look for new and alternative methods to protect their property, whether it's a popular solution or not.


The next Ubisoft method I'm expecting is that they'll send one of their employee around your house and watch over you as oyu play the game. That is how ridiculous they are capable of being.

#66
Oldenglishcdr

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lol don't give them any ideas about sending people around to peoples houses.

#67
ejoslin

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Forcing consumers to be on line to play a single player game is ridiculous. Not everyone has a broadband connection; right there, the company has cost itself sales. Some people play on laptops; there's not always a wireless hub where they want to play; again, more sales lost.



It would be interesting to see whether piracy or DRM costs a company more in sales. I know the hardliners will say they're the same and should be combined, but that really isn't true. But those numbers are speculative at best -- you can't get hard data about this either way, and any site that claims they have is lying.



I personally think, as long as you buy the retail version of a game, it's ok to use a cracked version. In fact, it's more reasonable to do that than to purchase a game and only be able to play it when connected to the internet.

#68
joriandrake

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Tizle wrote...

i feel like a nOOb because idk wat DRM means :( hehe...


The most evil thing in the universe after teletubbies

#69
joriandrake

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ZtalkerRM wrote...

Livemmo wrote...
Let me get this straight.. because "proesecuting everyone who downloaded a certain MP-3 is immposible", it makes it less against the law?

You can laugh as hard as you want but until the day EVERYONE and ANYONE who ever downloaded an mp3 is thrown in prison and/or fined I will not treat this "law" seriously. By definition, piracy of downloadable media isnt theft. Maybe you should go read the dictionary?

Just because something is impossible to enforce doesnt mean it's any less against the law. If you're going to throw someone in jail for downloading a 9gb file then throw the same person that downloaded an mp3 EVER IN THEIR LIFE in the same prison. The law is the law.

It's laughable to see this even being discussed. Like it or not its NOT theft. 


Did I mention jail anywhere? I believe I said something along the lines of 'fines.'
I know it's a difficult thing, but it can't keep on going like this. And I don't know who you're responding too, I thought I already made it clear I think it's theft too.
PS: Dictionary: 2. The unauthorized use or reproduction of
copyrighted or patented material: software
piracy.

But let's forget about this. It has no use to discuss this further :) everyone has an opinion about this and we're not in power to fix the problem.



not every nation has the same laws against piracy, some don't have any to begin with, so how much one takes piracy laws seriously depends a lot on where you live aswell

#70
soteria

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Forcing consumers to be on line to play a single player game is ridiculous. Not everyone has a broadband connection; right there, the company has cost itself sales. Some people play on laptops; there's not always a wireless hub where they want to play; again, more sales lost.


I'm not a fan of that particular system, myself, though it does have its merits. I know a guy who purchased Assassin's Creed 2, which has that sort of copy protection, and never even noticed an issue. He actually liked it, because he didn't need to keep the disc in the drive, and once you set everything up launching the game is apparently pretty seamless. That's assuming, of course, that you have a good internet connection.

I understand some people actually did a denial of service attack on Ubisoft's servers, bringing them down and stopping people who had legitimately purchased the game from playing for a time. I understand Ubisoft reimbursed those people in some way, but the sad thing is that people who hate DRM will stoop so low as to hurt innocent customers who just wanted to play the game. The purpose of the attack was apparently to make Ubisoft look bad and deter them from using that form of DRM in the future.

#71
phordicus

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shill alert.

#72
Khavos

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soteria wrote...
If you actually have any evidence that any copy protection or DRM "spies on you" then I'd like to see it.


Actually spying on you?  No.

Being malware that can be extraordinarily harmful to your computer, and in some cases brick your hardware?  Absolutely.  If you're not familiar with the Sony BMG fiasco, you should look it up.  

#73
joriandrake

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Khavos wrote...

soteria wrote...
If you actually have any evidence that any copy protection or DRM "spies on you" then I'd like to see it.


Actually spying on you?  No.

Being malware that can be extraordinarily harmful to your computer, and in some cases brick your hardware?  Absolutely.  If you're not familiar with the Sony BMG fiasco, you should look it up.  


other example is the Bioshock DRM issue