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I don't get why some people are saying not to complain


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#26
Ecael

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bcooper56 wrote...

ChuckNorris18 wrote...

There's a difference between constructive criticism, and complaining.

Complaining is good if not for it we would not even have free rights today or any benfits.

Human rights came from people who were willing to throw away their anonymity in order to fight and die for a larger cause.

This forum is the reverse, with people reveling in the anonymity and complaining about a game developer, and then complaining even more when they get censored, insisting that they have the right to free speech on an internet forum.

This is the difference between constructive criticism and complaining:
  • Constructive criticism: Since you're already intending on change it, here's some suggestions that could work!
  • Constructive criticism: Here are some suggestions on why the changes wouldn't work, without insulting an entire gaming audience or making up accusatory conspiracy theories.
  • Complaining: KEEP IT THE WAY IT IS BIOWARE EVEN THOUGH YOU JUST CHANGED IT NOOO
  • Complaining: YOU CHANGED IT AND THEREFORE BETRAYED US, RPGs, VIDEO GAMES AND OUR FREEDOMS
  • Complaining: YOU'RE AIMING FOR THE DUMBED DOWN MASSES EVEN THOUGH I AM ONE OF THE MILLIONS WHO BOUGHT THE PREVIOUS GAME THAT YOU SIMPLIFIED
  • Complaining: EA TOOK THEIR JOBS!
  • Complaining: YEAH, EA TOOK THEIR JOBS!
If they thought keeping something the same was a good idea, then they would have kept it that way in the first place. Either come up with a better suggestion or idea or quit complaining.

Modifié par Ecael, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:51 .


#27
munananustaja

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same thing if you say ''this game is gonna be awesome!!!!!''

If you can't complain yet, then you can't praise yet.

Modifié par munananustaja, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:51 .


#28
Bluto Blutarskyx

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Riona45 wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

Kalfear wrote...

Read my signature

Your signature is bad and you should feel bad.


LOL! 

I dislike seeing ME2 get trashed, but I guess it's something you just have to put up with if you're going to read this forum (it's not the ME2 forum, and sadly the game is now the "scapegoat" for some people).



me2 is a scapegoat for me as an example of a game that is a good solid fun game, but its overhyped and as such it pisses a lot of people off- its a good solid game that has some noticeable flaws that can be overlooked.

basically my biggest fear is the me series becomes like the rpg version of the ff series- all glitz and no guts.

#29
uzivatel

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They wont change story or basic gameplay mechanics this close to the launch. Lets wait and see how things turn out (and - knowing this forum - complain later).

munananustaja wrote...

same thing if you say ''this game is gonna be awesome!!!!!''

If you can't complain yet, then you can't praise yet.

No love for positive thinking?

Modifié par uzivatel, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:53 .


#30
Anexity

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bcooper56 wrote...



If you did not do anything then your voice would not be heard and there would be no changes.



For example Blizzard was going to force you use real names and id on there forums put people spoke up so blizzard pulled it.




I agree to an extent. The thing is people often forget the difference between voicing your objection and pointless ranting/whining. Saying " this game does/will suck" serves no purpose unless you back it up. Even if they wanted to listen, you aren't giving them anything to go on. Explaining why you don't like what they're doing, can and sometimes does have an impact. Making customers happy brings them and their money back, so they will listen. On that note, coming here and effectivly telling people to shut up also serves no purpose. You're not going to change their minds, nor get them to stop. Provided they aren't breaking any forum rules they have as much of a right to post as you do.




#31
munananustaja

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Modifié par munananustaja, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:55 .


#32
Ecael

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munananustaja wrote...

it's same thing is you say ''this game is gonna be awesome!!!''

1. It's called optimism.

2. BioWare has a good record of producing high-quality, critically acclaimed games, regardless of what publisher they use.

#33
marko2te

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Its still too early and to little info to form a real picture of the game but the problem is that information so far is not too promising. And while some wait for new information others are expressing their concern. In my opinion both are right people should not attack each other b ut work together to form a clear vision of the game and try to suggest ideas to make it even better.

#34
Jimbe2693

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Most people are complaining for good reason, they enjoyed DA:O's classic style, and don't want it to change.



We may have only a small amount of info but we can see the basic direction this game is heading, and I personally don't like where it's heading.

#35
ironcreed2

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I can already see the tsunami of backlash approaching and we have not even seen any gameplay yet. Not to mention that it will not be out until March of next year. I swear, gamers these days are so spoiled and have such a sense of entitlement. A little change here or a little change there and people go nuts. Oddly enough, I bet these same individuals would also be the first to complain if the sequel ended up being a copy and paste rehash.



No matter, I am firmly in the camp that actually thinks the game is being improved based on what little we know so far.



Polishing up the visuals? Check



A character that actually speaks and has a personality, while still allowing you to fully customize and be male or female? Check



Improving the combat for consoles, while keeping it the same for those on the PC, so that they give the best experience that feels right for each platform? Check



Sounds good to me. As much as I enjoyed Origins, I am glad that the sequel is not going to feel like a rehash. That's just me, though. Cannot wait.

#36
Heimdall

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ironcreed2 wrote...

I can already see the tsunami of backlash approaching and we have not even seen any gameplay yet. Not to mention that it will not be out until March of next year. I swear, gamers these days are so spoiled and have such a sense of entitlement. A little change here or a little change there and people go nuts. Oddly enough, I bet these same individuals would also be the first to complain if the sequel ended up being a copy and paste rehash.

No matter, I am firmly in the camp that actually thinks the game is being improved based on what little we know so far.

Polishing up the visuals? Check

A character that actually speaks and has a personality, while still allowing you to fully customize and be male or female? Check

Improving the combat for consoles, while keeping it the same for those on the PC, so that they give the best experience that feels right for each platform? Check

Sounds good to me. As much as I enjoyed Origins, I am glad that the sequel is not going to feel like a rehash. That's just me, though. Cannot wait.


I find myself agreeing with you

#37
Ecael

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Jimbe2693 wrote...

Most people are complaining for good reason, they enjoyed DA:O's classic style, and don't want it to change.

We may have only a small amount of info but we can see the basic direction this game is heading, and I personally don't like where it's heading.

The point is, they're going to or already have changed it. Unless there's some better idea presented to improve the game, I don't see why they would go back on their word.

And even if they did go back on their word, people would use it as an opportunity to trample all over them and demand anything and everything possible.

So complaining simply doesn't work, even if it did work.

#38
MaaZeus

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Warheadz wrote...

Complaining is alright, as long as its done in a civilized manner instead of "BIOWARE, TEH RUINED MY GAME!"



Indeed. And what also makes the whole thing ridiculous is that some people are drawing conclusions from the very little info we have so far. Only one "origin story"? ZOMG game will be a piperun with no choices. (WTF? Okay, perhaps I am exaggerating but point is there I think) Im also not happy with inability to choose elves or dwarfs but usually people are complaining about "lack of variety" single character might bring.

Or dialog tree? ZOMG restrictive dialog system. Well, if it really has the very same system as Mass Effect then yes perhaps it is restrictive. Not dumbed down, but probaply restrictive especially in a game like Dragon Age. But again thing is blown out of proportions. Hell, ME Dialog Tree can already have 5 different choices. Usually only 3 is used but 5 is possible AND used here and there (which are not just persuasions mind you!), plus the whole investigate thing that also moves the discussion further in some situations. And the whole thing can be easily expanded and refined if it needs to be larger. (and I think it really needs to be in DA2, but we'll see)


Point is, wait before we start to have something concrete damnit, then start complaining and whining if there really is a reason to.

#39
Krytheos

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Ecael wrote...

munananustaja wrote...

it's same thing is you say ''this game is gonna be awesome!!!''

1. It's called optimism.

2. BioWare has a good record of producing high-quality, critically acclaimed games, regardless of what publisher they use.


Indeed. They have an excellent track record; they have yet to produce a sub-par quality game. Sonic Chronicles wasn't even sub-par, it was a fairly decent, better Sonic RPG out there than some of the lackluster Sonic games that came before it. Sure, it wasn't the best RPG in the whole universe, but it wasn't below sub-par. I enjoyed it immensely, yet it seems to be a 'hush-hush' topic, even with it's success.

Still, point stands; if DA: O was as successful as it still is today, you can almost bet a guarantee that DA2 will keep the series' feeling and tone, perhaps even enhance it; if there's anything BioWare has taught me, it's their ability to at least keep the tone, and feeling of the I.P they produce. ME2, for instance, kept the feeling of ME1, though it was less epic, it was still gritty, and it still felt wholly like Mass Effect 1. There were some things that I didn't like, but others that I was pleasantly surprised with.

The 'feeling' of Dragon Age is, from what I've heard, kept, too; it's not the dialogue wheel, or the voice Overs that screw over the 'feeling.' It was the choices, the consequences that -felt- like Dragon Age. The party-combat, the interactions; all these things are in DA2, and I hope they keep the feeling of what Dragon Age is alive.

The only complaint I have is lack of an unrepetantly evil companion; possibly romanceable. Other than that small gripe, and the massive amount of stuff BioWare has to sort through for each and every decision possibility, I have only a few concerns;

As for complaining, from what I have seen on these forums, the following is the current of responses: 
  • Complaining, and whining about 'ruining our game!' or 'the dialogue wheel removes all of our choices!' 'Hawke has a set surname!' I believe someone address earlier, despite, you know. The same being said in DA: O. 'I can only be human, so that must mean Commander Hawke!' or 'BioWare is racist against Elves and Dwarves!'
  • Doomsayers saying 'THE GAME IS GOING TO SUCK/BEHORRIBLE' because [insert feature], which is simply not true. Not because I have unyielding faith in BioWare, but because with so little information, you simply cannot base such an opinion this early.
  • Construstive Criticism: This I agree with. Offering suggestions, constructive responses; that is what you should do. Complaining about a feature is not the way to do it; giving constructive criticism, however, can be very crucial and informative, against, say, complaining.
Honestly, this whole thing is starting to make my head hurt, because it's so early, yet people are doomsaying. Ugh.

Also, as for the human bit; I have to pose one question to those that do. Did you think that, maybe, it wasn't because they didn't want to, but because the story fits more with a human, and that it was a storytelling decision, not a game decision? A story is told from different perspectives; the first game explored many perspectives, but all roads lead to Ostagar eventually, with different events culminating at key points, and not-so-key points.

A story told with one perspective focused on different fronts and angles present a more intriquing, focused story, that allows you to define the character yourself, rather than having less, and thereby sometimes uninteresting choices. Sure, you may have only one origin; but that origin can easily span a longer time than any of the six origins in, well, 'Dragon Age: Origins.' It allows for an extensive, and well-defining moment as your character advances along the storyline, giving more opportunities to give your character defining moments, characteristics, and traits, maybe even romantic possibilities.

It also spans a decade. But I digress, my point is that, to complain is not the same as constructive criticism; the latter is the best, most helpful way of making any points, and pointing out glaring flaws that may be improved. Complaining can do the exact opposite, whether or not it's constructive, or simply 'this sucks!'. 

In short: Criticise, give valid points, and valid arguments; explain things clearly, and sufficiently; and importantly, take all facts into consideration, instead of outright complaining.

#40
zahra

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David Gaider wrote...



Just a comment here that I agree with the above poster insofar as there's no need to shout down people who are being critical of the game (or at least what they've seen of it so far, as limited as that might be). While some people can indeed get a little heavy on the dramatics, you all are indeed invited to comment... and just because someone's tired of hearing the complaints is no need to refer to people as "whiners".



Polite feedback of all kinds is welcome, and I would hope we're all mature enough to remember that.






Just wanted to post this comment here. I agree that feedback should be formed in a civilized manner, but people who continuously label detractors as whiners/children etc contribute to the negative atmosphere as well.




#41
Dhraiauvessillus

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We should complain. They have butchered Dragon Age 2. The sooner they know that the better.



People should complain about games. How else will we get games we want.




#42
Valmy

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bcooper56 wrote...

If you did not do anything then your voice would not be heard and there would be no changes.

For example Blizzard was going to force you use real names and id on there forums put people spoke up so blizzard pulled it.


I  am all for constructive complaints.  What I do not like is

'OMG BIOWARE RUINED THE GAME!' based on little information or

'OMG DA2 = MASS EFFECT!'

Basically it is just noise and a completely useless as discussion fodder.  As new information comes out discussing and/or complaining about specific features is a good thing. 

#43
ironcreed2

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Dhraiauvessillus wrote...

We should complain. They have butchered Dragon Age 2. The sooner they know that the better.

People should complain about games. How else will we get games we want.


Nice to see that you have already played the game. Please, tell us more.

#44
Valmy

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Dhraiauvessillus wrote...

We should complain. They have butchered Dragon Age 2. The sooner they know that the better.


This is a good example of useless noise.  While I am as unhappy about some of the things we have learned as the next person this is simply idiotic.  DA2 could be a masterpiece for all we know.  We have alot of information to dissect and discuss as time  goes on.

#45
Ecael

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zahra wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Just a comment here that I agree with the above poster insofar as there's no need to shout down people who are being critical of the game (or at least what they've seen of it so far, as limited as that might be). While some people can indeed get a little heavy on the dramatics, you all are indeed invited to comment... and just because someone's tired of hearing the complaints is no need to refer to people as "whiners".

Polite feedback of all kinds is welcome, and I would hope we're all mature enough to remember that.

Just wanted to post this comment here. I agree that feedback should be formed in a civilized manner, but people who continuously label detractors as whiners/children etc contribute to the negative atmosphere as well.

Whiners are anyone who fall within the category described in the SomethingAwful link listed below:

David Gaider wrote...

Heh. This is pretty much business as usual. Posted Image

If you're weary of the reaction, then I suggest heading here for a chuckle:

http://www.something...ge-reaction.php



#46
Khayness

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They have the moral highground, therefore your opinion is irrelevant!

#47
Krytheos

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Valmy wrote...

Dhraiauvessillus wrote...

We should complain. They have butchered Dragon Age 2. The sooner they know that the better.


This is a good example of useless noise.  While I am as unhappy about some of the things we have learned as the next person this is simply idiotic.  DA2 could be a masterpiece for all we know.  We have alot of information to dissect and discuss as time  goes on.



...Do explain to me how they have 'butchered' Dragon Age 2? I would quite like to enjoy, and hear where they 'butchered' it, despite the game being in pre-alpha to alpha, and being in the hands of developers? I would really like to know where this comes from.

Also, we have so few information based on, as of now; how can you simply go through the process of discounting DA2 and complaining about them butchering it, when the direction they are taking looks like they -aren't- butchering it as much as you might say. As well, the game is still 8? 7? months from releasing; we will know -then- whether or not the game has been butchered.

Or if it is, indeed, a masterpiece, or just a great game overall. Judging now is as he said, useless noise.

#48
17thknight

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Archereon wrote...

bcooper56 wrote...

If you did not do anything then your voice would not be heard and there would be no changes.

For example Blizzard was going to force you use real names and id on there forums put people spoke up so blizzard pulled it.


Some are trying to put down others with different opions then themselves, others are politely asking the more vocal and hysterical complainers to calm down and wait for more information before denouncing the game as "ruined forever."

Green: if they decided to go back to silent PC, it's probably not too late, unless they've already signed the contrats with the VAs, since other characters respond just as if you talked.


You're behaving exactly like the OP was denouncing. Calling people "hysterical" is no more constructive than what you decry.  Name-calling (yes, even from those who are happy about the changes) isn't helpful.

And if we waited for "more information" then we would be waiting until it was impossible for the game to be changed. You don't wait until the game is actually released and then ****, because that accomplishes nothing. You complain NOW, while the people actively attempting to ruin what we liked about Dragon Age can still change their minds and realize this isn't wanted.

#49
Bryy_Miller

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bcooper56 wrote...

If you did not do anything then your voice would not be heard and there would be no changes.

For example Blizzard was going to force you use real names and id on there forums put people spoke up so blizzard pulled it.


1) BioWare is not going to listen to a bunch of whiners over actual criticisms.
2) There are a number of legal and moral reasons why they pulled it. People whining and b****ing about it had nothing to do with it.

andyr1986 wrote...

bcooper56 wrote...

ChuckNorris18 wrote...

There's a difference between constructive criticism, and complaining.

Complaining is good if not for it we would not even have free rights today or any benfits. 


You are comparing fickle Bioware fans, that are complaining over the scraps of information Bioware have decided to hand to the press to the fight for civil liberties?

Honestly the majority of people in these threads need to grow up.

 


This.

#50
Krytheos

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Bryy_Miller wrote...

bcooper56 wrote...

If you did not do anything then your voice would not be heard and there would be no changes.

For example Blizzard was going to force you use real names and id on there forums put people spoke up so blizzard pulled it.


1) BioWare is not going to listen to a bunch of whiners over actual criticisms.
2) There are a number of legal and moral reasons why they pulled it. People whining and b****ing about it had nothing to do with it.

andyr1986 wrote...

bcooper56 wrote...

ChuckNorris18 wrote...

There's a difference between constructive criticism, and complaining.

Complaining is good if not for it we would not even have free rights today or any benfits. 


You are comparing fickle Bioware fans, that are complaining over the scraps of information Bioware have decided to hand to the press to the fight for civil liberties?

Honestly the majority of people in these threads need to grow up.

 


This.


Agreed on all points. Though the Blizzard thing is...disturbing, to say the least. Not to get too off-topic, but as I recall, Blizzard pulled it 'for the moment.' So, chances are they won't give a crap and still use RealID, only after Starcraft II and WoW's expansion Cataclysm are out, methinks.

On topic: I think we've reached the epitome of where this discussion is going to go. Most points made are solid for both sides, and the majority agrees that criticism is much more acceptable than complaints, which I heartedly concur with.